What is the longest you have gone without a water change or supplements.

[milspec]

I have gone four years with no problems and I have noticed my Acroporas growing faster without adding extra calcium. Sounds nuts, I know....
Water test are all good. I just run a 30 gallon aquarium as refugium without a skimmer or filters.

Years ago I used to drip calcium and added supplements everyday, did water test and intervened when something was out of whack.
Now I just clean the glass. It's been over four years with no supplements or water changes, mainly because of laziness and the fact that I don't have unlimited cash flow. My corals look as good as they always have, just bigger and more of them. My leather corals are causing problems with space and it is time to start thinning them out and selling them.

[milspec]

The poll is supposed to be multiple choice but something happened.:headwally:
I can't change it. Maybe a Mod can....

[milspec]

I wanted see if anyone else has had a similar experience. Not that it is a good idea to push your system this far. I was in a situation where I had no choice due to work and not being home a lot, among other things. I did look at the tank and was waiting to see it go south and it never looked bad in fact it was looking better then ever. After it went on to two years and not costing me a dime except electricity, I was thinking why I spent so much money on all the bottles of strontium, molybdenum, calcium, coral foods and so on not to mention the salt and all that work.

Well it's been four and a half years of not doing anything no water changes or supplements at all with the tank except cleaning the glass. I decided that it's time to blow out the piles of detritus and intervene and stop some coral wars. I realize now that I am running out of room. Time to start selling off some stuff. This was the worst part of the neglect to the system. The only other thing I did from time to time, I would give the fish a treat with some Prime Reef Flakes once a week.
Today while finally doing some work on the tank, I noticed that my T5s are dead. My 400 w Metal halides look like crap. but my corals are just plugging away and growing like crazy. they don't care at all.
I had added a table top acropora five years ago that was just a tiny frag that was unidentifiable at the time, it's five inches across and in two levels. One frag that I had for a long time is now 6 large colonies. Blue ridge corals doing too well :mad: It killed a lot of my acros by growing over them, now zoos are growing over most of it.
A few brain corals that were small a few years ago have a lot of weight to them now. One I got from a trash can at a LFS that had almost no tissue left on it, is a monster now. I just moved it down because it was almost out of the water. Xenia is all over the place. My Torch coral got too big so I broke it up into three colonies. The only coral I lost in the four years was a green slime acro frag.

In all that time I had no algae outbreaks just caulerpa that my tang was having a hard time keeping up with recently. I added a Fox face and now it's all but gone.

I still haven't done a water change, I just put two filter bags in to catch the detritus I blew out of everything. I don't run them in the system so I don't have to clean them and to keep microorganisms in the system. I am going to buy new lights tomorrow.
I will have to shorten the light cycle or use screens. I may finally buy some salt and do a 10% change.
:o

Tank description
120 Mixed Reef
30 gallon home made refugium w/ No skimmer/ No filter bags or sponges.
1200 gph main pump wit two power heads.
Two 400w metal halides
Two T5 HOs, not working at this time one bulb burnt out.

[C Dog]

Lets see some pics

[milspec]

All I have is a cell phone camera. I will give it a try today.

[milesofreefs]

my lfs has a 500 plus system and they told me they've never done a water change and the systems been up for over 10 years. ATOs work wonders on keeping everything in check.

[milspec]

Not professional pictures, I know I need a camera.
Plus I just moved around a lot of stuff in the tank and totally smashed a montipora. It needed to be smaller anyway:p

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35728

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35730


No heater, just a chiller and this refugium is all I'm running with an auto top off plumed into my Ro unit.
The filter bags are in there because of blowing out the detritus today only.
The torch corals aren't open yet because of fragging it about an hour ago.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35729
This anemone split four times.

[milesofreefs]

no skimmer?

[milspec]

No Skimmer.

[milesofreefs]

now thats crazy. ok ive herd of tanks with refuges not needing skimmers but four years no skimmer just refuge and bio filtration with out water change seems like madness and your still growing had corals and you fish arnt dead from starvation. im confused.

[milspec]

I actually set this tank up almost five years ago. I had a larger tank with all the bells and whistles before this one. When I moved I sized down. I went for simplicity and a budget with this one and it worked out fine.

I do feed the fish, just flake and only what they will eat and no more. When you watch the fish they eat all day long. Stuff floating in the water and things off the rocks.

[milesofreefs]

i retract the starvation statement the fuge and all the LR would house enough little bugs to keep everything alive. YOU HAVE BEATEN THE ODDS MY FRIEND! :beer:

[milspec]

Thanks!
I'm not doing a water change, I may do a test and see where everything is. I'm changing my burnt out T5s then I'm going to wait a month and swap out my halides and shorten the time they are on for a while. I don't want to bleach everything. I will probably never use additives ever again only because of saving a lot of money. I may go another four years LOL...
:beer:

[milesofreefs]

i hear ya. i was thinking and i dont think this could have happened like this if you didnt have so much liverock, liverock is calcium based and that would be whats keeping good perams in the tank and also with that much LR its acting as a giant filter with the little pods and what not. what im saying is people who dont have that much LR should probably not try this

[wicz101]

That's pretty crazy, where abouts in PA do you live wouldn't seeing thing in person.

[geaux xman]

i'd like to see some better pics if you can.

[milspec]

Yea I set up the tank this way on purpose after a lot of trial and error over the years. I have been keeping reef tanks for a long time. With a lot of rock and a shallow sand bed, a refugium with a deep fine substrate. A lot of water flow, you can do what I'm doing. I wouldn't attempt this on a smaller system.

More cell phone pictures. They look like crap but it's the best I can do.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35734

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35732

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35733

[milspec]

I also want to add that you don't want a heavy fish load.
I have three damsels, two clowns, a tang, and a fox face now. No clean up crew starfish etc. Just what is in the rock naturally.

[zigzag1]

Are you using Tap water for evaporation top-off? How hard is the water in your area?

My thought is that if you are using tap water, it may be acting as a supplement of sorts.

[SeabassSA]

I love it. Very nice indeed.

[milspec]

I am using RO water, I don't have a storage tank for water because I don't do water changes. It is plumed directly into the sump with a float valve.
I wish I would have did water test the whole time with a logbook to see how the parameters fluctuate but I didn't do any test at all.
I will do a test kit and see what I got now.

[samstersam]

<a href="http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s78/samstersam/Other/?action=view&amp;current=thread_is_worthless.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s78/samstersam/Other/thread_is_worthless.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[milspec]

Phosphate 0.5
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
calcium 460

[biecacka]

how does your calcium stay so high if you dont replenish it?
corey

[d0ughb0y]

we have all been brain washed to believe that we need to do weekly 10% or more water change. isn't there another thread from the guy in NY who never did a water change for a long time? I think he mentioned the trace element in new salt mix will last many years so there is no need to dose trace elements. I used to do weekly and now only do water change between 4-6 weeks. of course one of the condition that allows you to not do wc is if you have 0 nitrates (which concurs with what you said about keeping bioload low). I also saw a video of a fish and coral farm where they don't do water change (no skimmer, they use turf algae), simply because they said they'll go out of business if they do weekly water change even at 10% of the total volume of all their tanks.

how to you keep ca at 460 without dosing? it has to come from somewhere.

[milspec]

I'm thinking the substrate is leaching it as needed. I haven't added any calcium in this tank and and It always tested good. The acroporas are growing like crazy in this tank. This last test I just did was the first test of the year.
Years ago I decided If the tank looks ok then It's OK. I don't test anything unless I am curious or I see a problem.

more cell phone pics
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35739
The brain in this photo was found wrapped in a plastic bag in a trash can at a LFS it was free.
The cell phone doesn't show the color right it is a nice green and tan color.



http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=5145&pictureid=35738

[d0ughb0y]

What is your substrate? Crushed corals?
That test that you got 460, is that recent? If not can you test it now? Just curious. Thanks.

[milspec]

That is a test as of right now.
I'm using about 1 inch of aragonite.

[someotherguy]

Be careful, some retailers may want to silence you...
:eek2:

[milspec]

I Know. :o
The way my aquarium is set up works fine for what it is. If you are doing an all SPS reef jammed packed with huge colonies, or you may like a lot of fish, you may not get away with this, there will be a tipping point. It depends on what you want , It's a balancing act.

[biecacka]

now i dont do frequent water changes but im still confused as to what could be keeping your calcium so high? you think the substance could be leaching it
corey

[milspec]

I don't actualy know for sure, I think it has to so with the substrate, it's just always around 420 give or take a bit,somtimes less, today it was higher then normal but it goes up and down. I did just blow out the whole tank. I don't know If that has anything to do with it. Because It was always ok I never worried about it.
There is no way to be sure unless someone else can test their tank for calcium that doesn't add it, then you would have a comparison.

[NatureNerd]

When my kids were first born, I got pretty busy and did not do anything to my tank but use Kalk in tap water to make up for evaporation. I did that for well over a year, almost two. I also only fed the fish two or three times a week. The result was nice coral growth but brownish SPS corals. Everything looked great except my SPS color. Surprisingly, my anemone, clam, and softies looked even better than they do now.

[d0ughb0y]

That is a test as of right now.
I'm using about 1 inch of aragonite.

what is your ph?

[milspec]

Don't have a PH kit or don't know where it is....

My KH is 125.3 and 143.2 ppm kh
I know... but it was the only other test kit I could find.:o

[SeabassSA]

Only has me thinking why? But thanks for sharing your experience.

[milspec]

I think what it shows is that you don't have to be in your tank every day.
I think when I first got into the hobby I used to fall for all the hype and hidden advertisements.
All the books say that you need to do this and add that and some even mention brand names.
I used to add at least five or six types of trace elements, coral foods, vitamins, etc.
nine dollars for this and twenty dollars for that and I would use a twenty dollar bucket of salt a month.
I lived at the aquarium store. That's how they get you in there you know...

My first tanks, way back when... were death traps. I was going by the Book water changes on schedule whether it needed or not.
I had marks on a calender of when and how much of what bottle to add. Water test every week and adjust.
I had every type of system known to man and had piles of junk in the closet.
My 90 gallon tank was the first set up. Way back then it was the plenum nightmare and wet dry with a skimmer disaster.
I know I have that book somewhere....

Then I switched up to a 125 with a DSB and the problems associated with it. Also by the book...
Then a 180 with a refugium and now this 120 when I moved.
So far since I set this tank up almost five years ago it cost me electric
and tomorrow one set of metal halide bulbs and two T5s. Not bad for running almost five years.

Yes... I am starting to do a water change a month, but It will be a little less then 5 gallons. It's something.
I think my scarphyton may have been keeping my sps back, I sold it when I moved and that's when they took off; but who knows?
Also I'm not saying you don't need to add calcium. It just depends on your system's needs...

Well that's my whole story....

[milspec]

Well I did my first water change of 5 gallons and I changed my T5 bulbs for now and with them on the tank looks a lot better It brings out the color. I am looking at an LED strip light but they are over 400 bucks each!!! I would need two to replace my T5s...
My bulbs are new so I have a while till I will want to buy LEDs.

Is there a better route?
Is 400 too much for a single strip of LEDs?

[biecacka]

you havent changed your bulbs in 5 yrs either??!!!

:)
corey

[milspec]

Almost 5 years and it shows... The bulbs are shot. the T5s burned out.
I have seen people grow corals under worse. If you are just propagating corals, cheap bulbs from Home Depot will work fine. The corals don't care what color the light is as long as it supports photosynthesis. It just doesn't look as good to the human eye. The halides first shift in color and then start to loose intensity and if you wait long enough they burn out:p. My bulbs were loosing allot of intensity so the corals didn't look happy. They are all ok though.

[Elem7777]

Well I did my first water change of 5 gallons and I changed my T5 bulbs for now and with them on the tank looks a lot better It brings out the color. I am looking at an LED strip light but they are over 400 bucks each!!! I would need two to replace my T5s...
My bulbs are new so I have a while till I will want to buy LEDs.

Is there a better route?
Is 400 too much for a single strip of LEDs?

LEDs are expensive, I'm not sure what LEDs it is you're looking at, but in order to replicate 800 watts of MH with T5 supplements you're probably looking at more than $800 dollars unless you do a DIY fixture or buy direct from a company in China.

I don't really like MHs and prefer LEDs myself, mainly because I don't have AC, but if I had a tank like yours that was stable over that long a period of time with no real intervention I don't think I'd want to change a thing for as long as I possibly could avoid it. Not counting changing out bulbs and broken equipment of course.

[milspec]

Thanks
800 bucks is not a big deal considering the electric savings.
I am concerned of the new technology and what an impact if any I will see.
I'm just not sure about it. They look nice in the store and the corals look nice under them but these corals are for sale and not kept under these lights forever. Some of my corals are adjusted over years under MH lighting.

I was thinking of swapping out just the T5s for high output blue LEDs.
The price I got was around 400 each that would be 800 for two lights to replace only my T5s. I almost fell over.....

Is he out of his mind or is this the going prices for these?

[milspec]

These 400 a pice???
http://www.reefbrite.com/reefbrite-xho-led/

I was looking at these MH bulbs. I just don't know much about them.

http://www.reefbrite.com/reefbrite-twinarc/

[Elem7777]

I don't know anything about the MH bulbs but if you buy those Reef Brite strips online they're $320 each instead of the $400 that I'm assuming your LFS wants.

http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/RB-PM48-B.html

If you're just using them to supplement the MH bulbs with some extra color you could also try thier other strip lights. On the above website they have them listed for $240 each, the difference between them being 24 vs 36 LEDs for the 48'' long strips.

[milspec]

Thanks!

Well I guess I may try them out and see if I like the way they look as a supplement to my t5s and halides.
I'm just not too sure about replacing the halides with LEDs.
If they were as good or better I would without hesitation.
I could cut my bills down a lot. I wouldn't even have to run a chiller anymore.
I may have to get a heater though....

My halides are about to burn out, they are overdue, so it may not be a problem switching to LEDs

[110galreef]

Phosphate 0.5
nitrite 0
nitrate 0
calcium 460


.5...thats high! or supposed to be .05? Hows the algae with that much PO4??

CAL at 460 with SPS? Hmmm

Colors look brownish, but stuff appears to be fine & growing!

[110galreef]

I too like the simple approach. I keep a fair amount of SPS and have to atleast dose cal & alk as they would plumit to dangerous levels in no time. I also only do 3-4 week 10% WC, and have a good skimmer. I have a moderate fish load, feed pretty decent (not a little, not a lot)

My tank aprams have kept perfect & SPS colors are very good.
CAL: 425
ALK: 9.6
Phos: .0184-.0215 Like to have just a little
Nitrate:0
Mg: 1350

I had an older tank that was a softies & LPS tank. I would do 15% WC every 6 weeks or so. Used tap water. Ran an OK skimmer. Never dosed, just feed fish and topped of eveaporation. Only checked salinity & temp. Tank ran perfectly. LPS and softies I believe thrive on these enviroments.

I too believe the 10% Weekly WC is overkill and brainwash as are Most supplements!

[milspec]

That's not too high. It would be lower if I did water changes every week like a normal person.
:D

[110galreef]

.5 is rather high! definitly inhibit sps colors

[milspec]

I know the tank isn't looking like it did when I did monthly water changes but the corals are growing faster then they did before. I don't know exactly why they just are or were up to a point, the colors are l little off though. Along with higher then perfect phosphate, the lights are another BIG factor as to why the tank looks like it does. It will turn around now that the lights are being changed and I'm back on schedule with water changes.

[biecacka]

i agree that WC every wk are over kill. i think the key is to find the balance in feeding as to keep the nitrates down.
corey

[110galreef]

I know the tank isn't looking like it did when I did monthly water changes but the corals are growing faster then they did before. I don't know exactly why they just are.

Because extra nutrients! Thats why they are growing!

Its a balancing act of low enuf nutrients for great COLORS, yet not too low that they turn pale, yet not to high they brown out! SPS related anyway.

For softies & LPS, really pretty simple as you have to get pretty high to zap those guys! :hammer:

[LeLutinBanni]

Your story is cool...

But aesthetics is very weak. The lack of color is probably caused by the lack of water changes and high levels of phosphate.

So yes, you can keep fish and corals without basic equipment. But personally, I expect more than that of my aquarium

[biecacka]

i believe there are ppl on here who keep AMAZING tanks w/out basic equipment like skimmers. they just do water changes and change bulbs as needed. thus giving them a more "healthy" tank or one better to look at
corey

[milspec]

Your story is cool...

But aesthetics is very weak. The lack of color is probably caused by the lack of water changes and high levels of phosphate.

So yes, you can keep fish and corals without basic equipment. But personally, I expect more than that of my aquarium

Believe me the tank was fine when I did water changes once a month or every other month. I never had a skimmer in my old tank and no additives other then what is in a salt mix. I like the tank looking perfect but when I use to keep the aquariums by the book years back (and had coral losses and other problems) I used a lot of my income and time on the tank a year! lol.
Do you need a skimmer NO. Will it hurt to have one....not really...
Should you change your bulbs on a schedule YES!!!
Did I push the envelope. YES!
Would I do this as an "experiment" with thousands of dollars invested. NO
Did we learn anything...... Maybe....
Would I do this if I didn't have to again...NO WAY!!!

Give it a few months and I will try to post a good picture of how the tank is doing with a good camera instead of a crappy cell phone. The tank looks better in person even though it is far from perfect.

[LeLutinBanni]

Anyways...You are doing a great job to keep all your livestock alive while a lot are people have difficulties with $$$$$$ equipements

*Sorry my english is not perfect... :P

[milspec]

Anyways...You are doing a great job to keep all your livestock alive while a lot are people have difficulties with $$$$$$ equipements

*Sorry my english is not perfect... :P
Thats ok, nether is mine, I'm an American....
I use words that aren't in the dictionary.
:D

[jarrod13]

I've kept my tanks for years with no skimmers, no additives, and water changes whenever I feel in the mood, usually 1-2 times a year. Each tank is different and what works for some won't work for others. I just did like what has already been stated, found the happy medium that keeps my tank thriving. I couldn't agree more that if the tank is doing well and staying stable then why go and mess with it

[biecacka]

agreed!!! i think one of our biggest issues is ourselves!! always sticking our hands in there tinkering
corey

[milspec]

Time to work on my own tank for a change:dance:
Well I made the decision after almost five years, I am going to move my reef down a level. I don't have the room In the tank that I did when it was set up. One Acropora colony is huge and out of the water so it can't grow anymore and you can't see them because when you look at the tank all you see is the bottoms. I have to thin out the leather corals and scrape some corals off the glass. My tank looks like you tried to shove a two hundred gallon reef into a 125. It is time to intervene I'm afraid. I think in the long run the corals will be happier with more space. I have to remove some rock to do this and sell off a lot of frags.

I just hate to have to do it. :sad2:
The tank is nice but it's just too much going on to look natural or be aesthetically pleasing. If I was in a house I would upgrade to a bigger tank.

[SaltwaterAdict]

Time to work on my own tank for a change:dance:
Well I made the decision after almost five years, I am going to move my reef down a level. I don't have the room In the tank that I did when it was set up. One Acropora colony is huge and out of the water so it can't grow anymore and you can't see them because when you look at the tank all you see is the bottoms. I have to thin out the leather corals and scrape some corals off the glass. My tank looks like you tried to shove a two hundred gallon reef into a 125. It is time to intervene I'm afraid. I think in the long run the corals will be happier with more space. I have to remove some rock to do this and sell off a lot of frags.

I just hate to have to do it. :sad2:
The tank is nice but it's just too much going on to look natural or be aesthetically pleasing. If I was in a house I would upgrade to a bigger tank.

That blows my mind that you never did any wc's, skimmer, change bulbs, etc and yet your corals still seem to thrive! :eek1: It must be a balancing act indeed, and not sure if most people would want to walk on that rope. LOL The whole calcium demand doesn't make much sense to me in reference to your tank. As corals grow they need to intake calcium. Your rocks and gravel leaching it must have been just enough to sustain them. Glade everything worked out for you and you still have your corals. If someone else attempted this it may not have turned out the same. ;)

Looks like you're on track now. Be sure to keep us update.

[milspec]

Thanks
I think it is the substrate dissolving over time.
I will be updating in this thread I started.
Yesterday I broke the tank down to remove leather corals and some rock.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19363562#post19363562

[newguy88]

for the ppl who havent done water changes for a long time. Do you guys add any supplements? I havent done a water change in about a month and all of my sps are doing much better. Now mind you i am doing a better job of keeping everything in line, but i dont want to change anything by doing a water change. so i wanted to see what you guys did when it came to trace elements, amino acid and what not.

thank you

[Eric45]

I didn't see any pics...

[borderreef]

I dont suppliment, except for kalk in my ato. I pretty much do a constant nsw change with my ato. I keep my top off water at about 20 - 25 ppm in a 35g trash can, and wet skim continuously. This keeps my salinity at 35ppm with almost no fluxuations. There's always the occasional screw up with the skimmer, over flow or under skimming, but the fluxuation is minimal and easy to fix.