Nitrate ?

[lj1064a]

Can nitrates of 60 - 80 cause HELLE? Or is there such a thing as nitrate burn? If so what would be the effects?

Thanks

[sandwi54]

In my experience, I had a majestic angel coming down with HLLE at 80ppm of nitrate when it was being treated for ich in a quarantine tank for 2 months. After it returned to the display with 0 nitrate, the HLLE was gone.

I think most literatures recommend < 30ppm nitrate for marine fish.

[MrTuskfish]

Nitrate at 60-80 isn't (often) to most fish. I don't know that anyone knows for sure what causes HLLE. It probably did cause it with sandwi54's Angel; but I've never seen it at that level. I think the underlying housekeeping problems associated with high nitrate may have something too do with HLLE quite often. the number of things that have been suspected as a cause for HLLE is endless. Activated carbon is one of the latest, I doubt it. The nitrates in all of my FOWLR tanks are at about 60 ppm, usually. I haven't had a case of HLLE in years. I have no idea why; I've done almost everything on the HLLE "suspect' list.
BTW, I don't think there is any such thing as ''nitrate burn". Fish in many wholesalers, shippers, even LFS; are often kept with nitrate in the 100's, even 1000's ppm nitrate with no problems; but still not a good idea. (Bob Fenner)

[sandwi54]

Yeah I really hope there'll be more scientific studies done with causes of HLLE. In my limited experience, I believe diet and nitrate are the strong suspects, but I have no ways of proving it.

[Monkeyfish]

I think nitrates DEFINITELY play a role. I'm having difficulty dropping the nitrates in my fowlr below 70 and my newly added chreub angel, which is eating, active and has grown, now has HLLE. No problems during the month in QT. One month in the display and it started to show. I'm fraid to add the black velvet angel i bought. He's doing great in the QT so for the time being, so that's where he'll stay until I manage to drop the nitrates to <30.

[sandwi54]

If your nitrate is over 40ppm, and your tank is not overstocked, that means your skimmer may not be strong enough for your tank or you just need to do more water changes. Also keep in mind that in a new tank, nitrate tends to stay high (~30-40ppm) but will drop once the tank is on its way to maturation, due to the growth of microfauna and anaerobic bacteria deep inside large live rocks. that usually starts happening around 4-6 months after it's set up. Of course, full maturation doesn't happen until 1 year after.

If your tank is overstocked, then it'll be really hard to keep the nitrate down without a refugium. A strong skimmer will help a lot, but most likely won't drop it down to a very low number. The skimmer still needs to be reasonably sized to your system though. A skimmer rated for 500g will not work well in a 100g system.

Growing macroalgae in a refugium will help. however, i've found that if you stock your new tank too quickly, cyano/diatom will dominate in the first 4-6 months and usually starve out the chaetomorpha. I never had luck growing chaeto until 4 months after the tank is set up, and after diatom/cyano disappear.

[Monkeyfish]

The 180g is definitely NOT overstocked and the system has been up and running for about 3 years. It was empty of livestock, except for a crab, for about 6 months. There has been fish in the tank for at least 8 months now and I've been adding softies for the past 3 months (shrooms, GSP, kenya tree) - all are doing well and growing.

My skimmer is probably underpowered for the system. I have a 75g tank converted to a sump/refugium, maybe 230 gallons for the whole system?. The skimmer is an Octopus NW 200.

I've also been adding vodka for about 4 months. Haven't nioticed any big changes and I'm up to about 9 mils per day.

[sandwi54]

8 months should be sufficient for anaerobic bacteria to grow. How much live rocks do you have? do you have a refugium? can you give me the list of your fish?

i don't think the Octopus NW200 is underpowered for your tank. how is the performance of the skimmer? is it pulling out gunks of skimmate? keep in mind that if your load is light, your skimmer won't really work well.

oh and last question, you're using RODI water right?

[Monkeyfish]

I have about 150 lbs of live rock in the tank and refugium.

The skimmer pulls out about a third of cup (collection cup) every 2-3 days. Have to clean it then as the neck gets gummed up.

I use RODI water for SW and top-off.

I've been changing about 50 gallons of water a week, on average. I tested the "change water" and the nitrates were undetectable.

Current stocking list:
Tasseled file fish - 6"
Squampinnis anthia - 3"
Carberryi Anthia - 2.5"
Orange spotted file fish - 2.5"
camel cowfish (tetrasomus gibbosus) - 2"
copperband - 4"
cherub pygmy angel - 2"

There's also about 35 hermits and 100 assorted snails.

[sandwi54]

mmm... that's really weird then. your load is probably just about half of mine so i wouldn't expect nitrate issue in your tank. it also sounds like your skimmer is working fine. do you have algae problem?

what food do you feed your fish? if frozen food do you strain the water out first and dump only the food into the tank? do you have a filter sock in the sump and if you do, how often do you clean/replace it? anything that traps detritus needs to be replaced every couple of days, otherwise it'll give rise to nitrate issue. i'm just throwing out ideas now.

also, how is the flow in your tank? if you have lots of dead spots detritus would be trapped in there and produce lots of nitrate.

[fiji4118]

Just my 2 cents. I didn't see anyone comment on carbon use for dust purposes. Mr Tuskfish mentioned carbon but not the dust that may enter with cheap carbon. I use to use carbon in my system that had a fair amount of dust. I have read a couple of studies that indicate that the carbon dust may be the cause of HLLE in tangs. I can say that my purple was developing it when I was using a crap carbon that had a ton of dust. I removed it and started using a filter pad that contained carbon that was rinsed well and only used it a few days a month and he has begun to recover. May not be true for angels. My nitrates are 0. Again just my 2 cents.

[sandwi54]

carbon is one of the suspected causes. it may be true but i don't know. i don't run carbon in my system because i'm afraid it could cause HLLE.

[MrTuskfish]

Just my two cents. I think there MAY be a connection between nitrate & HLLE; but there just isn't any evidence to support the theory. The fish in this thread seem to have developed HLLE after exposure to high nitrate; then recovered when nitrate was reduced. But is nitrate the cause, or is it just coincidence? Who knows. There are many chemicals that occur during normal decomposition, every cyanide. Nitrate just happens to be one of the things we have the ability to measure. I don't do the reading I used to, but have never seen any study relating nitrate to HLLE; quite the opposite. There are many reports of SW fish living in water with nitrate in the 1000's ppm with no ill effects. Aquacultured red snapper and salmon are two. There is a ton of $ in nitrate-reducing products; I'd think there would be research linking the two if it were the case. The recent study of carbon being a cause (as mentioned by fiji4118 above) is far more convincing than anything I've seen regarding nitrate. I'm not saying I believe the carbon study either. If nitrate did cause HLLE; just about all of the more susceptible fish (tangs,& angels, mostly) at almost any LFS would have it; their nitrate is usually sky-high.
I agree with the basic idea that high nitrate could be involved in HLLE; but think its more likely something else involved and high nitrate may just be a measurable indicator that whatever that something happens to be----related to water conditions. Because so few fish are really very susceptible to HLLE; the cause could easily be something genetic that we are far from knowing. Our hobby has come a long way, but we're far from understanding a whole lot more than we do understand. A hobbyist has know way of testing for the countless things that could be responsible.
I guess what I'm trying to say through all this drivel is that that while I think high nitrate MAY be an indicator that something in water chemistry causes HLLE; I just don't think its the nitrate itself.

[Monkeyfish]

I do use carbon, but it's in a media reactor which gets flushed after new media is placed in it. I suppose I could try some water changes after shutting of the reactor, but there'd be no guanrantee that I'd be removing any carbon dust that may already be in the tank. I guess it's worth a try.

Detritus is definitely an issue. I've begun shutting off the pumps and using a powerhead to blow junk off the rocks which then gets removed by a HOB filter. Hopefully this will help lower the nitrates.

I've also begun soaking the food in Vita-Chem and added some to the tank water. I'm hoping this helps with the HLLE.

[MrTuskfish]

I do use carbon, but it's in a media reactor which gets flushed after new media is placed in it. I suppose I could try some water changes after shutting of the reactor, but there'd be no guanrantee that I'd be removing any carbon dust that may already be in the tank. I guess it's worth a try.

Detritus is definitely an issue. I've begun shutting off the pumps and using a powerhead to blow junk off the rocks which then gets removed by a HOB filter. Hopefully this will help lower the nitrates.

I've also begun soaking the food in Vita-Chem and added some to the tank water. I'm hoping this helps with the HLLE.

I think one thing just about everyone agrees with: HLLE will almost always clear up (or greatly improve) with great water, diet, vitamins & patience.

[sandwi54]

Just my two cents. I think there MAY be a connection between nitrate & HLLE; but there just isn't any evidence to support the theory. The fish in this thread seem to have developed HLLE after exposure to high nitrate; then recovered when nitrate was reduced. But is nitrate the cause, or is it just coincidence? Who knows. There are many chemicals that occur during normal decomposition, every cyanide. Nitrate just happens to be one of the things we have the ability to measure. I don't do the reading I used to, but have never seen any study relating nitrate to HLLE; quite the opposite. There are many reports of SW fish living in water with nitrate in the 1000's ppm with no ill effects. Aquacultured red snapper and salmon are two. There is a ton of $ in nitrate-reducing products; I'd think there would be research linking the two if it were the case. The recent study of carbon being a cause (as mentioned by fiji4118 above) is far more convincing than anything I've seen regarding nitrate. I'm not saying I believe the carbon study either. If nitrate did cause HLLE; just about all of the more susceptible fish (tangs,& angels, mostly) at almost any LFS would have it; their nitrate is usually sky-high.
I agree with the basic idea that high nitrate could be involved in HLLE; but think its more likely something else involved and high nitrate may just be a measurable indicator that whatever that something happens to be----related to water conditions. Because so few fish are really very susceptible to HLLE; the cause could easily be something genetic that we are far from knowing. Our hobby has come a long way, but we're far from understanding a whole lot more than we do understand. A hobbyist has know way of testing for the countless things that could be responsible.
I guess what I'm trying to say through all this drivel is that that while I think high nitrate MAY be an indicator that something in water chemistry causes HLLE; I just don't think its the nitrate itself.

MrTusk you convinced me even more that carbon is a cause of HLLE.

Basically, I think just as what MrTusk said, clean water and good diet will prevent HLLE. What we as aquarists should do is try to mimic ocean's environment for our fish. That means, zero ammonia, zero nitrite, low nitrate, balanced water chemistry, and of course, treating our fish like we treat ourselves in terms of diet (varied diet with multiple nutritional values).

[sandwi54]

I do use carbon, but it's in a media reactor which gets flushed after new media is placed in it. I suppose I could try some water changes after shutting of the reactor, but there'd be no guanrantee that I'd be removing any carbon dust that may already be in the tank. I guess it's worth a try.

Detritus is definitely an issue. I've begun shutting off the pumps and using a powerhead to blow junk off the rocks which then gets removed by a HOB filter. Hopefully this will help lower the nitrates.

I've also begun soaking the food in Vita-Chem and added some to the tank water. I'm hoping this helps with the HLLE.

Here is my two cents regarding detritus. If you have extensive rockwork, they will accumulate in there, and most CUCs just don't do good enough of a job cleaning it up. I used to have 30-40ppm of nitrate constantly no matter what I did. At the time I had 4 koralias for water movement in my tank, and I read about Ecotech's vortech pump and decided to get them based on their reputation and people's recommendation. The first time I turned them on I was shocked to see how much detritus was blown out of my rockwork. Then over the course of one month, nitrate went down from 30 to zero and has been at zero ever since.

My point is that don't underestimate the importance of water flow and the effect of accumulated detristus in your system.

[MrTuskfish]

Here is my two cents regarding detritus. If you have extensive rockwork, they will accumulate in there, and most CUCs just don't do good enough of a job cleaning it up. I used to have 30-40ppm of nitrate constantly no matter what I did. At the time I had 4 koralias for water movement in my tank, and I read about Ecotech's vortech pump and decided to get them based on their reputation and people's recommendation. The first time I turned them on I was shocked to see how much detritus was blown out of my rockwork. Then over the course of one month, nitrate went down from 30 to zero and has been at zero ever since.

My point is that don't underestimate the importance of water flow and the effect of accumulated detristus in your system.

I agree, its seldom discussed either. We know that detritus accumulation increases ammonia, which will increase nitrate. What we don't know is what else is the decomposing junk producing and what can it do? I had the same experience when I upgraded old PHs.

[MrTuskfish]

MrTusk you convinced me even more that carbon is a cause of HLLE.

Basically, I think just as what MrTusk said, clean water and good diet will prevent HLLE. What we as aquarists should do is try to mimic ocean's environment for our fish. That means, zero ammonia, zero nitrite, low nitrate, balanced water chemistry, and of course, treating our fish like we treat ourselves in terms of diet (varied diet with multiple nutritional values).

I don't know what to think about the study relating carbon (not all carbon products, I can't remember which. It may have even been uncontrolled carbon dust). I know Scott Michael made some anecdotal comments on the subject too. I think whatever is there is going to be blamed for HLLE until someone actually comes up with some real evidence.

[sandwi54]

I agree, its seldom discussed either. We know that detritus accumulation increases ammonia, which will increase nitrate. What we don't know is what else is the decomposing junk producing and what can it do? I had the same experience when I upgraded old PHs.

Exactly. nutrient transport is very important, i guess more so for reef tanks than FOWLR, since reef tanks require very low nitrate. Nevertheless, I believe with 1. strong water flow to keep detritus suspended, 2. a mechanical filter to trap the detritus which needs to be replaced every 2-3 days, 3. a strong skimmer, and 4. an effective refugium growing macroalgae, there should be no problem keeping nitrate at a very low level. My bio-load is very high for my 225g and yet my nitrate is always zero (I have strong vortech pumps and use a 100-micron filter sock to trap the detritus, which is replaced every 3 days).

[sandwi54]

I don't know what to think about the study relating carbon (not all carbon products, I can't remember which. It may have even been uncontrolled carbon dust). I know Scott Michael made some anecdotal comments on the subject too. I think whatever is there is going to be blamed for HLLE until someone actually comes up with some real evidence.

Yeah I agree with you. There just hasn't been enough studies done yet. Until then, I will continue to not use carbon. My filter sock traps detritus and makes the water clean, and protein skimmer pretty much does the same thing as carbon, if not more.

[Monkeyfish]

Well... I turned off the carbon reactor and I think I found where my nitrates are coming from.

When I designed the refugium/sump I made it a bit too big so there's very little room to work in there. I added some live rock and macros and away we went. About once a month I'd siphon some of the guck out of the sump, but never moved the rocks around. I finally bit the bullet, got a long algae scraper to use as a lever to move the rocks and went to work.

There were spots in the refugium where the "detritus" was over an inch thick. After 3 hours of sucking out gunk, I called it quits. I'll probably go back in later this week to finish the job. Oy. Hopefully, this will cut down on the nitrate production so I can finally bring the level down via water changes.

No carbon. Lower nitrates. Take that, HLLE!

[sandwi54]

aah there you go! once you clean that up you should start seeing nitrate drop in a few weeks, with water changes and a working refugium.