Anemone Help

[Johnathanb]

I have had my anemone for a about a week now, yesturday got a hold of some of the fish food that I dropped in there. It just doesnt look the same when I first got it.

The mouth is open just a little, it closes up sometimes, but not all the way. I was wondering if these are normal behaviors.

Nitrate sits at around 20ppm. Salinity is at 1.024. pH is at 8.2. Nitrite and Ammonia both are at 0.

Also another question is, if the anemone is dieing will the clownfish not host it anymore?

Here are a couple of pictures.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/035.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/036.jpg

[Johnathanb]

Here is one, just recently, part of the body is closing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/050.jpg

[Toddrtrex]

Looks like it is a bit bleached.

What size tank?
What lights do you have?

Would prefer that your nitrates were lower and that your salinity was a bit higher -- 1.0256.

[Johnathanb]

This one is a 20 gallon tank with a T5.

[Toddrtrex]

How many, and what type of bulbs?
What wattage?
Does your fixture have individual reflectors?

[Johnathanb]

That may just be the lights. Here is one without lights.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/021.jpg

[Toddrtrex]

Looks even more bleached in that picture. If the tentacles are translucent, it is bleached.

[Johnathanb]

it is 4 bulbs, 22in 24watts each, so 96watts total

[garygb]

That is a bleached Entacmaea quadricolor, bulb tip. Your lighting should be fine for that species. Bleached refers to the anemone having lost most/all of its zooxanthellae (algae that colonize the tissue and provide the bulk of that species nutritional needs). Expect that over the weeks and months the anemone will develop a rich brown color. This is a good sign and indicates the overall health of the anemone is improving. Providing the anemone with very good water quality in the mean time will also improve the anemones health. I would try to feed the anemone small (pea size) pieces of fresh seafood--such as fresh shrimp from the seafood dept. of the grocery, also squid, mysis, silversides, krill would be accepted. Target feeding an anemone that is bleached provides it with nutrition that it's lacking due to the absence of the zooxanthellae and also expedites the recolonization of the zooxanthellae because the anemone digesting the food creates food for the algae. The anemone is nicely attached it looks like, which is a good sign. Also, your maroon has its one and only natural anemone host (E. quadricolor). The clown looks about the right size for that size anemone, so all that is good. I would definitely try to get the nitrates down. A nitrate level of 20 won't kill an anemone, but one that's acclimating won't be as happy as it would if the nitrates were lower. In the ocean nitrates are undetectable and that's what I suggest you shoot for. you want your specific gravity in the 1.025-1.026 range, temp in the 78-82F range, moderate water flow. Water changes, protein skimming, good circulation all go a long way toward keeping nitrates down. Also making sure not to overfeed the tank--food is the source of nitrates, ultimately.

To answer your question about anemone hosting if it is dying--I expect your clown would stay with that anemone until death do them part. However, from you pics, I wouldn't expect that anemone to die anytime soon. BTAs are the hardiest of the hosting anemone species and that one looks pretty good (other than being bleached, that is). If it starts to wander, you want to be sure and cover the powerheads. They can be damaged or killed by being sucked into a powerhead intake.

[Johnathanb]

Thanks for the help garygb!

The BTA has already done its wandering part when I first put it in the tank. Its been in that spot ever since.

[sqwat]

also he will shrink and look diff from time to time its how they expell water and waste and sometimes it will totally deflate as long as he is attched to the rock dont wory to much.i have brought nems back from this but only with perfect water and patients.get a kit that test for iron in youre water .iron is very important in photosythasis and i keep it on the high side with bleeching nems and corals.feed a tiny bit of food soaked in selcon or zoa every other day to every day just the size of a pencil eraser head.and keep water clean and dose iron on the high side.only if you get a kit that test for iron.it might be hard to get nems in alaska but i would go to whoever sold him to you and try to get youre money back cause he is a ahole salesmen.gl. setup a thread on the recoverywith daily pics and water readouts and feeding and we can all help.

[garygb]

Good to hear it's found a place and has been staying put for a while. A hole or cave in the liverock is the typical substrate BTAs attach, which looks to be the case with yours. Keep us posted and ask questions all you want. In time, you may want to upgrade to a larger tank, like perhaps a 29 gallon. BTAs can get rather large, but that isn't anything to worry about for a while.

[Johnathanb]

Thanks everyone for the help and advice. When I woke up this morning the BTA shrunk to were my clowns couldnt even get in. Before I left for work it came back out. It has never detached it self from the rock. When I get home tonight I will post a few new pictures of the BTA. Thanks Again

[Johnathanb]

Few pictures for an update.

When I fed the clowns, I noticed them feeding my anemone, this is the first time I have seen this, so it was really intresting and amusing to me.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/photo.jpg

Here are two pictures of the anemone this morning. Clown trying to squeeze in haha.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/photo_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/photo_2.jpg

[Toddrtrex]

You might have to remove/separate the clown from the anemone. Maroons are notorious for being hard on anemones, loving them to death.

[Sport507]

The nem is trying to split becuase it's stressed (new tank maybe) and that can be a good thing. The clown it in the way for sure. Just put something over it like a fish net or anything to keep the clown away for a day or so.

[garygb]

I don't necessarily think it is splitting. Seeing inside the anemone's mouth is likely because it had just been fed.

[Johnathanb]

So is it a good idea to keep the maroon clowns away from the anemone for awhile? or should I just leave it as it is? I havent been home to see how its doing now. I have another 5 hours of work to go haha. I also have my lights on a timer for 12 hours. Is that to much or to little?

[Johnathanb]

Before you mentioned I should upgrade to a bigger tank. I have taken a great interest in the Biocube HQI 29 Gallon. I will probally end up getting that tank either tuesday or possibly sometime mid next month. Question is, what steps would I have to take into transfering the anemone, live rock, and clowns into the new tank. The Biocube HQI comes with 150 Watt HQI Metal Halide Lighting, Built-in refugium chamber. Will buy the stand for it sunday.

[garygb]

12 hours is a good photoperiod. As far as the maroons, I got the impression they're pretty small. If the fish appear to be too vigorous with the anemone, then it's a good idea to separate them until the anemone is well settled. On the other hand, having clowns that are the right size can actually be beneficial to the anemone.

The biocube would made a good long-term home for your anemone and clowns. As far as how to transfer, ideally you would cycle the biocube with live rock and let the tank get established for a few months and then transfer in the fish and anemone. Some people cycle with hermit crabs, others just put a piece of shrimp in the tank and let it decompose and watch the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate do their increase/decrease. I would wait a few months after the cycle to add the anemone.

[sqwat]

i wouldnt do anything for awile the stress could put it over the edge.marroons and tomatoes do over love them but i have seem marroons also be very tender and aid in the healing and if he is feeding it you just might be able to get this guy back,do not move him till he is unbleached.this is not impossible and can easly be done by small feeding and good water quality.soak his food with selcon or zoa and get youre iron on the high side this will help the zoo reproduce fast wich is what you want.keep water changes up and also amke sure they are the same temp ,ph,ans salinity b4 you add it.i have a feeling you can do this and in my expierence with the couple i have brought back they become hardier and you tend to have a good sence in nem care.gl i have done this many time for me and friendstime and patients john.

[Johnathanb]

The maroons are about an inch big, the anemone seems to be fine, it is shrinking and expanding like sqwat said earlier. Nothing has changed about the anemone in the earlier pictures.

I did some tests just recently and they all came out the same as before. I increased the salinity to 1.0255 slowly. As for the selcon, I will have to wait untill tuesday to go and pick that up from the pet store. For water changes, how often, and how much, should they be done for the anemone not to be overly stressed? I have been doing about a gallon water change about every 3 days, that was me trying to bring down the Nitrate.

Thanks again for everyones help

[garygb]

If you do a gallon every 3 days for a 20 gallon, that's ~10% per week, which is excellent. Small, regular changes like that are idea. I'm glad you're doing everything you can to take care of the anemone. If you keep up your diligent care, you will hopefully be rewarded with a very nice, healthy BTA.

[Johnathanb]

Thanks, I honestly hope this all goes through. I would hate to lose the BTA, so im trying my hardest to keep him alive, and learn from this experience. Do you have any advice on how to drop the Nitrate level? I have seen a few chemicals at the pet store awhile ago to drop Nitrate levels, wondering if I should grab a bottle of that aswell.

[Toddrtrex]

I would not use any chemicals for that. The easiest way to drop them is by doing water changes. In addition, I wouldn't dose any iron. Iodine can help with bleached anemones, but a quality salt mix will provide enough.

So, IMO/E, just stick with doing your water changes -- which will help with your nitrates -- and feed it small quantities of food.

[garygb]

I agree with Todd, no chemicals, just depend on skimming, water changes, keeping feeding in check.

[Johnathanb]

Sounds good then, I will just continue with my constant 1 gallon water changes every three days. I do have a protein skimmer aswell. For the water flow, I have read BTA requires moderate flow. I have two powerheads 250gph, on the far back side of the left and right side of the aquarium, one is flowing straight and upward, while the other is flowing at an angle upwards. Is this to much flow? Or is there a better placement of my powerheads for a desired flow? Will too much flow stress the anemone out?
Thanks for the help

[garygb]

You have ~500 gph turnover in a 20 gallon. That's plenty of circulation, but I wouldn't worry about it being too much. I would point the currents from the two powerheads so they will collide and cause random water movement and you don't want the flow directly pointed toward the anemone.

[Johnathanb]

Yea I wasnt to worried about my flow or lighting aswell, because the BTA found his spot pretty quick, wasnt to much wondering around. As for the BTA, is eating and still on the side of the live rock, and has never detached itself. I just did another gallon water change, and about an hour later did some test. Still the same levels, with Nitrate still at 20 ppm.

[garygb]

Nitrate tends to be that way, but with continued water changes you will see it drop--slowly. Do you have sand? If so how deep?

[sqwat]

i have a feeling with everyones help you will be able to bring this guy back its so rewarding.gl keep us posted

[Johnathanb]

I do have a sand bed, it is about 3 inches deep. I plan on visiting Petco today or tomorrow, if I get the chance today. Does anyone reccommend anything I should pick up at petco, such as supplements for the BTA. Here are a couple of pictures of the BTA and clowns I took when I woke up this morning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/007.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JonoBonoDono/Other/008.jpg

[Toddrtrex]

I wouldn't pick up any supplements -- unless this is an SPS tank too, and your Cal, Alk, and Mag levels are low. Just stick with your regular water changes, and keep an eye on those clowns -- didn't know that you had a pair.

[Johnathanb]

I do keep an eye on my clowns, they never leave the BTA unless it starts to shrink, there always feeding the BTA, which was a concern for me. Can the BTA being overfed be a bad thing for it? Or if its full will it not eat anymore? I didnt get a chance to hit the petstore or LFS today, but will be making a trip to both tomorrow.

I will pick up some more test kits for the Cal, Alk, and Mag. And will start on the BTA and maroon's long term home, a BioCube HQI. Hopefully the BTA has recovered by the time the new tank has cycled. I know that you are suppose to add anemones into a 6 month or older tank. I was wondering would that be case for me? Even if I add my current live rock with the new live rock I will be adding?

Thanks for the help

[garygb]

If you don't have corals, you don't really have to worry with Ca or Mg testing. Anemones aren't particularly concerned with that and the water changes will keep the levels in check--assuming you're using a decent salt mix. Reef Crystals or Instant Ocean or Tropic Marin are all fine for an anemone without worrying about adding Ca or Mg. Or, for that matter, Alk. I think sometimes with anemones it's better not to add any of that. I personally only rely on water changes and don't dose.

I wouldn't worry about the clowns overfeeding the BTA. Since it's bleached, the food will encourage zooxanthellae growth and provide nutrition that the zooxanthellae would otherwise be providing. It's important that the food items are small. The anemone can digest the food with less effort and obtain the most nutrition.

Different opinions on transferring from your current setup to a new tank. But generally speaking, some cycle will occur if you use your current sand and LR. The process of shaking everything up will disrupt the nitrogen cycle and, in turn, result in a cycle, albeit a small one. If you could leave your 20 gallon in tack and essentially use it as a sump for the 29 gallon, that would be a different story. Then the cycled 20 would be able to process the nitrogenous waste from the 29 gallon. Eventually the 29 gallon would be fully seeded and could be cut off from the 20 gallon, but at that point it would be wise to feed lightly and slowly increase so the bacterial colonies could compensate for the loss of the 20 gallon sump.

[OrionN]

Sounds good then, I will just continue with my constant 1 gallon water changes every three days. I do have a protein skimmer aswell. For the water flow, I have read BTA requires moderate flow. I have two powerheads 250gph, on the far back side of the left and right side of the aquarium, one is flowing straight and upward, while the other is flowing at an angle upwards. Is this to much flow? Or is there a better placement of my powerheads for a desired flow? Will too much flow stress the anemone out?
Thanks for the help
Why just one gallon change. I do a 10 gallon change once a week for 2 or three weeks and your high nitrate problem is solved. Make sure you age the new salt water for at least 1 day and the salinity match. Keep the temperature nearly the same will also help keep the animals from stress due to water change. Large water change is the way to remove waste. Sometime I do all the water change like 80-90% water change. As long as you mixed the water more than 24 hrs in advance and keep salinity and temperature the same, it should be fine.

[OrionN]

I do keep an eye on my clowns, they never leave the BTA unless it starts to shrink, there always feeding the BTA, which was a concern for me. Can the BTA being overfed be a bad thing for it? Or if its full will it not eat anymore? I didnt get a chance to hit the petstore or LFS today, but will be making a trip to both tomorrow.

I will pick up some more test kits for the Cal, Alk, and Mag. And will start on the BTA and maroon's long term home, a BioCube HQI. Hopefully the BTA has recovered by the time the new tank has cycled. I know that you are suppose to add anemones into a 6 month or older tank. I was wondering would that be case for me? Even if I add my current live rock with the new live rock I will be adding?

Thanks for the help
If there is no significant coral in the tank, supplement is not needed. Anemone is mostly water so do not feed the anemone that much. Over feed the anemone is very detrimental to it, especially not totally well anemone like yours. At the most you should feed an anemone the size of yours about 1 cc of food every 4-5 days.
Don't add any new live rock to the tank unless it is completely cure.
Don't add salt to the tank to raise salinity. Rather, top off with salt water and let evaporation bring up the salinity until it reach the point you want.
Your tank is fine for your anemone right now. I would not want to move him into a new tank. Your clowns feed the anemone because you give them too much food. You should feed your clown less, this will help with the nitrates. There should be no food left after a minute or two after you add food into the tank. If you still see food blowing around or pellet sink to the bottom, that is where you nitrate problem come from. What do you feed your tank?

[sqwat]

do not over feed this will stress and kill him just feed the clowns and they will feed him.if they dont just feed him alittle every day a piece or pieces the size of his mouth once a day he looks not to be unhappy just bleached keep up the good work also amke sure ph salinity and temp of new water is the same b4 adding it.youre nitrates were high right just do 5 percent a day till nitrate has gone down keep water healthy and he will.recolour

[Johnathanb]

I feed the maroons with Fomula Two Marine Pellets, I will cut down on the feeding. I do take precautions before my water changes, just didnt know about the 24 hours in advance before adding the new water. As for the 10 gallon change, could it be possible to just do a 1 gallon change a day? Everyones help and inputs are very helpful, thank you.

Thanks For The Help

[OrionN]

If you do 50% water change you remove 50% of the wastes. Two 25% changes you remove 43.75% of the wastes (1/4(100%) +1/4(75%)) and so on and so on. The larger the water change at one time is more effective the removal of wastes and replenishing trace elements.
One 10 gallon change is a lot more effective and quicker than ten 1 gallon changes. Keep in mind that with large water changes you really need to age the water and keep salinity the same. Temperature can be a little warmer but the closer match the better. Newly mix water is deadly to the animals and poorly match water can stress them out.

Consider train and feed the fish with flakes. I mixed the flakes and frozen food in a cup with tank water then add it into the tank. This way the flake does not float on the surface end end up in the overfloat to the sump. The food just fly every which way and all the fish get their fair share.

[OrionN]

???

[garygb]

I think small, frequent water changes are ideal. Your nitrate is 20, which is too high, but it's not astronomical. Eventually your nitrate will drop as the nitrobacillus (bacteria that convert nitrate to gaseous nitrogen) colonize the anaerobic layers of your sand bed. FYI, deep sand beds can be problematic down the road. I personally used to keep dsbs, but have since gone to shallow sand beds and rely on waste export rather than denitrification. That's a whole other topic, more appropriate for the General Reef Discussion Forum and not a concern for the time being. Anyway, for now, if you want to increase to daily 1 gallon water changes that would be fine. Or, as Minh said, larger wcs will bring nitrate down faster, but perhaps be more disruptive, and unnecessarily so, in my opinion.

[OrionN]

Dry food are a lot more concentrate. 1 cc of food for the anemone was mean to be frozen food which is mostly water, not dry pellet. I never use pellet so I am not 100% sure how to advice you here. Anemone like to eat fresh seafood anyway so I would use shrimp, squid, fish or what ever you have. I would avoid frozen food for aquarium. Too often I find these food smelly and spoiled or near spoiled. I would be sick if I eat them. I am sure there are more than a few anemone keeper here who can told personal loss of anemone with aquarium frozen food.
I use both deep sand bed and bare bottom tank/shallow coarse sand tank. I can tell you that in all of my tank, nitrate was never measurable with our hobby test kits.

[Johnathanb]

Long story short, there was a power outage, weather here is 20 degrees. Thanks again for everyones help, I much apreciated it. I probally wont buy anything else untill I get me battery powered box. Was a very sad morning, I would like to say again Thanks for everyone that helped me, I now have a better understanding of the BTA, and will atempt getting another in a few months.

Thanks

[garygb]

Did I miss something? Low temps shouldn't necessarily mean the demise of a BTA. That species is found in the coolest reefs (most southerly) in the world. Any pics?

[sqwat]

gave up

[Johnathanb]

I didnt give up, I have actually decided to go bigger now, but I did not take any pictures. I have bought me 55 gallon long tank instead of the BioCube. Going to start off way slower this time around. And on top of things, I work 24 hour shifts, 1 day on 1 day off, and I can't just leave work for a fish tank. I have ordered myself a 4x54 High output light just this morning. I will not start the process untill I find me a decent rechargable power source, or end up making my own.

[garygb]

Sorry about the loss. Best of luck with the new setup.