What do you think about the disappearing of coral reef around the world?

[nino4u]

I am not sure if this is the right place to post or not...

So like the question said...
What do you think about the disappearing of coral reef around the world?
What do you think is causing this? ( ie.. pollutions, global warming etc... )
Is there any soluton?

[jmg416]

I don't have much in the way of solutions, but have a couple of ideas on the causes. I certainly think environmental changes are a big influence. I can't just say it's global warming (though I do think that's part), but more just removing specific species from an ecosystem will always have unintended consequences. Look at the crown of thorns star in Australia.

I do also know that one of the main issues in the VI is a combination of rising water temps and people walking on and picking at the reefs.

[alton]

Over population of the human species has led to this. Question is how do we fix this issue? How do we control our population?

[nino4u]

i dont know... that is a good question alton.. how do we?

I was just curious because after watching a episode on discovery it mention about the disappearing of coral reef.

So do you guys think agriculture will have anything to do with it?

I always wonder wouldn't the fertilization that we do on our farms will eventually reach the river and then it would go into the ocean?

I don't know what your input on that? Guys?

[jimmy frag]

I always wonder wouldn't the fertilization that we do on our farms will eventually reach the river and then it would go into the ocean?

I don't know what your input on that? Guys? ....i think its already deep into our water ways and oceans

[StephLionfish]

Humans are killing off the reefs. Overfishing is one reason. I read that waste is being dumped into the ocean, and something in human waste is killing off SPS.
I think we should stop taking from the ocean completely. People need to stop breaking off their own frags off of corals, and taking live rock for their tank, and even sand. Stop taking fish and inverts... I mean, obviously it IS making an impact. Ignorance is another thing.
We're way too intelligent to ignore this... It's time we get off our lazy butts and start breeding more fish and inverts. As for corals, there's Aquaculture and Mariculture. People are keeping tanks for the wrong reasons anymore... it's not about the fish anymore.
I think that's wrong, and that stupid show 'tanked' is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.
I don't keep fish tanks cause they add a nice touch to the living room; I keep them because I want to learn more about them, and their natural environment.
I could go on and on about this...

[nino4u]

Thank you Steph for the input... I do think people do play a big role in the destruction of reef as-well... But i didn't know that human waste is killing off SPS... I will have to read more about that...

[StephLionfish]

I'm a little iffy on that... I'll have to reread it over to completely understand... then I'll report back.

[Cramz07]

The reef isn't our only worry either. We are losing fresh water supplies, forests, and even land everyday due to pollution. Look at the Aral sea for example, It used to be the 4th largest lake on earth. In 20 years it is hardly anything. The impact is devistating to the region causing massive climate changes. It's irritating to know that the technology is there and its just money, low priority, and lack of interest by governments around the world that keep "green" from being implemented. There is something like close to or over a million jobs i heard recently that could be created just in america by implementing some of these green economic strategies. Everything has a breaking point and everything dies. So i guess the real question is, What is earth's breaking point. At what point will earth cease to support life? How close to that point is earth? Can we continue to waste supplies and pump fossil fuels into our atmosphere for 10....20....50 more years before it's a serious problem? I guess it's kinda like smoking....no offence to anyone....Everyone knows that for the most part smoking kills, there are a few people out there that it won't kill, but, for the most part it will kill you. People know this, there are commercials, ads in magazines, it's even printed on the packaging. But how many people read all that media and quit right on the spot. Many people will try to quit multiple times and fail, some the next day they quit smoking and never smoke again. Some slow down and get to the point where they just don't anymore. I just wish there was a patch we could use that would help allieviate the dependency on polluting the earth.

[KafudaFish]

1. It is bad.
2. Natural and anthropogenic pressures such as non point source pollution.
3. Sadly not likely. Even if we continue to improve technology and make things more efficient and "friendly" based upon the number of people those pressures will increase regardless if you are talking about land, fresh water, or the marine environments.

America has 300+ million people yet China and India have closer to 2 billion. Each and every person requires resources to live. Even if each of those use a third of what Americans do then yeah snowball.

FYI I am not passing the buck and pointing fingers because I know per person I use many more resources than most do in those countries. My point is what happens when someone in China uses the same amount as I do?

How will things "improve"?

Also it is not possible to return to a perfect garden so to speak.

[doctorgori]

Over population of the human species has led to this. Question is how do we fix this issue? How do we control our population?

+ callousness + blamming economic woes on "enviormental regulations".... and although I totally agree; I see no way to "unhinge" this issue from a politcal discussion ....

we can discuss it from a "problem" vantage point, but to bring up "solutions" is entirely one of will, desire and political solutions


America has 300+ million people yet China and India have closer to 2 billion. Each and every person requires resources to live. Even if each of those use a third of what Americans do then yeah snowball.

Spot on, but its also a matter of what the people want... these two countries couldn't have a totally OPPOSITE policy towards thier enviorment ...all one need do is look at the state of Chinas big cats vs, India's (hint China's wildlife ends up either on the menu or in a pharmacy)

[nino4u]

I really appreciate everyone opinion on this topic here... Look like i am going have to do a lot more homework on this as-well... Love to hear more from other people and what they think as well... :D

[TheFishTeen]

The aquarium hobby does not employ destructive methods to collect livestock. Period.

[Six line]

Not true. Cyanide poisoning and dynamiting occur, though most of those shipments don't come to America.

I think the coral will continue to disappear until things become critical, because as we all know, nothing really gets massive support until it's almost too late. Guarantee nuclear fusion and solar energy will have a whole lot more funding when gas is $12 a gallon.

[Gill_bucket]

Thank you Steph for the input... I do think people do play a big role in the destruction of reef as-well... But i didn't know that human waste is killing off SPS... I will have to read more about that...

It's true... I was in the Caribbean several years ago, I can still remember how all the bilge's on the boats emptied strait into the water (no holding tank). I can remember a port that was almost a bay, the water under the docks looked like sewage and it was... :thumbdown There simply isn't an infrastructure that can handle all the waste on the islands. Apparently there is a bacteria/virus? That has crossed over from humans to acropora? I dont remember the exact specifics but I'll do a search and see if I can't come up with a link.

[Gill_bucket]

Wow, I could post a ton of links on this; but I'll just post one. ;) http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/places/Human-Waste-Killing-Caribbean-Coral-128080723.html

[nino4u]

Thanks Gill, Lots of information you have provided... Like Six Line already mention I dont think there will be alot of enforce support on the reef until it is nearly extinct. That is just horrible....

[billsreef]

Not true. Cyanide poisoning and dynamiting occur, though most of those shipments don't come to America.

The dynamiting isn't done for the aquarium trade, that one is solely in the domain of food fishing. Cyanide on the other hand is used in both the aquarium and food fishing...it was first used in food fishing before trickling into the aquarium trade. Also a large number of Phillipine/Indo cyanide caught aquarium fish do come to the US, as well as the rest of the world. It's getting somewhat better, but still a substantial problem.

[sucker_fish]

I think that the disappearance of coral reefs is horrible, like others have said therewill likely be nothing done until its almost too late. I'm also sure that our hobby will suffer greatly when someting is finally done unless captive breeding efforts are aggressively continued.

[nino4u]

Getting a little off topic here but that picture of your sucker fish make me laugh everytime i look at it...

but I too believe in that as-well about breeding efforts...

[Allmost]

well looking at history of "earth" we see it has gone through many "changes".

I think we are giving ourselves too much credit for thinking we are causing this "change".

but with that said, I still am all for better collection, culturing corals, and jimmy had a great point about the fertilizers, and I believe I saw a documentary on how devastating the effect of all the fertilizers being washed by the recent flood was ....

[Luiz Rocha]

Here we go again, just keep believing 7 billion people cannot "change" a planet, but the fact is that we can. Short list of ways we (humans) do affect reefs, none of which are related to global warming:

1. Pollution (self-explanatory);
2. Sedimentation (most coastal forests are gone, without the forests all the sediment washes up in the reef);
3. Overfishing causing changes in the ecosystem equilibrium;
4. Destructive fishing (cyanide, dynamite, trawling);
5. Physically breaking the reef (either walking on it, dropping anchors, making ship channels or harvesting coral for limestone);
6. Marine debris (a.k.a. trash).

[keywestcoralboy]

Ocean pollution due to sewage, fertilizer runoff from the west coast and south florida and the biggest contributor is huge amounts of sand and sediment kicked up by the cruise ships literally smothering what's left of the living reef.. I hate cruise ships they ruin everything now they will expand the main ship channel to accomidate bigger ships that will kick up more sand.

[alton]

Great posting everyone, if you are wondering about fertilizers? Go buy a bottle of liquid and pour it in your tank. Todays farmers do not waste fertilizer like the farmers of old so that is getting better, pollution is a problem along with over fishing. And you are right ships in general coming to this country have brought all types pollutants and pest. From Fire Ants to pesty algaes

[prop-frags]

Decline of Coral Reefs (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Coral/)


"The problem is human activities assault reefs on many different levels," says Dustan. In Florida people drain their septic tanks directly into the ocean. The additional nitrates in the human waste cause algae to grow on top of the coral structures and deprive the coral polyps of sunlight. In the Indian Ocean around Sri Lanka, fishermen often use dynamite to catch fish and in the process end up blowing the reefs to bits. Around the islands of the Philippines and Japan, over fishing of natural predators has allowed the Crown of Thorns starfish to run rampant and devastate the coral in the area (Miller and Crosby 1998). The world over, global warming, which many believe to be caused by human greenhouse gas emissions, is warming the top layers of the seas in the tropics and causing the coral to turn white and lose their polyps—a condition known as "bleaching" (Pockley 2000).

[Allmost]

has there been any reports of how healthy reef have been for say last million years ? maybe from skeleton of corals and reef bones ? has it always been healthy for billions of years, and now it is declining ?

[billsreef]

has there been any reports of how healthy reef have been for say last million years ? maybe from skeleton of corals and reef bones ? has it always been healthy for billions of years, and now it is declining ?

There is a very good record of historical coral reefs found by doing cores of existing reefs, as well as fossilized reefs. That natural change happens has never been argued, it's well known. It also gives us some comparisons to rate of change...it's that rate of change that is tremendously faster now, and most scientists attribute to human induced factors. To figure we are indeed making changes doesn't take much more than looking around. We've got huge concrete jungles (aka cities), sewage plants dumping nutrient loaded wastes into the water...and even enough hormones to actually skew sex ratios in fish, garbage found far out to sea as well as washing up on our beaches, garbage dumps that tower above the surrounding landscape, lots of visually obvious smog producing entities...the list goes on. Yup, it's kind of hard to look at all that and not think we are having an impact.

[Allmost]

There is a very good record of historical coral reefs found by doing cores of existing reefs, as well as fossilized reefs. That natural change happens has never been argued, it's well known. It also gives us some comparisons to rate of change...it's that rate of change that is tremendously faster now, and most scientists attribute to human induced factors. To figure we are indeed making changes doesn't take much more than looking around. We've got huge concrete jungles (aka cities), sewage plants dumping nutrient loaded wastes into the water...and even enough hormones to actually skew sex ratios in fish, garbage found far out to sea as well as washing up on our beaches, garbage dumps that tower above the surrounding landscape, lots of visually obvious smog producing entities...the list goes on. Yup, it's kind of hard to look at all that and not think we are having an impact.

thanks Bill :)

I found this which is kind of interesting as well
http://www.globalreefproject.com/coral-reef-history.php


7 billion of us, cant disagree, but we have whipped out alot of other creatures, but your are right, the overall impact is that we have increased the bioload on the oceans I guess :) [the creatures and animals we have whipped out didnt have coal burning factories :) ]

[Luiz Rocha]

Yes, as Bill said there are many reports out there showing that the corals today are dying at a much faster rate than before. Historical (previous) sea level changes are for the most part not fast enough to kill coral: when you have a healthy reef it will grow upwards as fast as the sea level rises.

The problems that we face today are very different, we are killing coral (and/or decreasing their overall health) by pollution, sedimentation, destructive fishing, etc., and at the same time the climate is changing (by human influence or not). If it was "only" climate change I would be confident that coral reefs would survive well, but with all those other impacts it is hard to be optimistic.

[Allmost]

I see what you mean, thanks.

2012 stuff are starting to look very attractive to coral reefs :P with human population cut to 500 mil. lol

so from the page, last time, it took great barrier reefs 20 million years to re grow. WOW !

[chilwil84]

the bloom of death that comes out of the mississippi every year shows the destruction that agriculture produces. these foods are not just for consumption but for running our transportation in the form of ethanol

[Paaxil]

The dominance of a certain clade of symbiodinium (the algae that lives within the coral). Certain clades of algae allow the corals to withstand higher temperatures, or grow at a certain rate. Some are beneficial while others are parasitic.

[Josh_Canada]

i'm rattled by the topic. Heard a redneck call coral 'alien plants' the other day...

[MimicOcto8]

lot of good opinions and facts here.

I'm saying its humans that are the cause. not global warming necessarily but how we impact it. For one, I've heard on average each wholesaler get in around 1400 pieces of corals a week. This is supposedly control too....

[doctorgori]

the bloom of death that comes out of the mississippi every year shows the destruction that agriculture produces. these foods are not just for consumption but for running our transportation in the form of ethanol

What is it, 40 or 60 million people live in the Mississippi drainage? NTM the original forest cover (which soaks up silt & nitrogen) is like 40% (don't quote me)... Of Course the Steel Mills and general industrialization of the Ohio Valley can't be helping

At anyrate, my guess is only the Yellow Sea is subject to more abuse than the Gulf

...I'll keep saying this: these eco/green discussions alomst always start with "education", "awareness" but consequently terminate with resolve
in the form of regulations and laws (goverment/political solutions) ....
basically these topics are limited to the "awareness" end since the "solution" end involves more taboo political discussion

[moorish idol 1]

There are multiple different reasons for the destruction of reefs part of it is the crown of thorns sea star we all but eliminated it's main predator and as a result there is an epidemic of them in many reefs around the world.

[r-balljunkie]

Ill chime in. I'm on the reef every week, at least once a day every week, whether walking the low tide, snorkeling, diving, collecting fish. I think a biggest factor going is larger populations of people. No people generally equals no problem.

there's no corals in Hawaii near densely populated areas, Oahu, Hono. you go north up the chain where its protected, tons of stuff.
Coral degradation in Oz, namely GBR and all the cities along the gold coast on the east side…. more human population to impact the reef.
huge die off in the Andaman sea off coast of Thailand a few years ago, massive coral bleaching due to higher temperatures reaching and sustaining themselves at 90+ degrees. I can't prove it, but large once again, large population.
all said, I was impressed with the wildlife in the Andaman, and the corals have made a remarkable recovery in the few short years. generally speaking, the Thai divers I met appreciate and respect their waters.
its a relatively low footprint where I live (1400 people), and the corals are thriving fine, plenty of clams, reef fish, turtles, rays etc even with the impact of the adjacent island, population 15,000. recently, there's been a bit of a shift in the reef here locally, namely less sharks. the Marshallese government has been generous with fishing licenses, so loads of long liners are skirting our island. they take all the big tuna's and now we have less sharks on the reef. used to be dozens in the water when you dove.....we still see them, but not in such great numbers.....once again the impact of people.

all the reefs aren't disappearing, IMO they're in decline around populated areas.

no good answer, it is what it is :(

[oflaherty21]

agree with luiz, this is actually a topic of much debate in my aquatic ecology course

[oblongshrimp]

While its impossible to tell if we are cause for sure we should still do our best to stop it.

[jdhuyvetter]

I'm still waiting for someone to talk about the "new" reefs that are being discovered!

[Luiz Rocha]

I'm still waiting for someone to talk about the "new" reefs that are being discovered!

What new reefs?

[Metal Man 1221]

I wrote a paper on ocean acidification, and I learned a lot in the process.

Its not obviously the only cause to the destruction of the reefs (and the rest of the planet)

I'll say this in hopes that no one takes it the wrong way. But I believe the destruction of the reefs and most of the global crises, both in society and in nature, come about from the result of over population on our planet. Cities continue to grow in order to support a higher population. As this growth occurs there is ever increasing demand for resources of all kinds. This isn't helped by fossil fuels because not only are their emissions recking havoc on our ecosystems, but fossil fuels are what give us the ability to sustain such a large population. We as humans have found a way to bypass the dynamic rhythm of our planet; a cheat code in a game if you will.

Edit:
r-balljunkie, just read your post.... ditto.

[jdhuyvetter]

Brazil
http://www.enn.com/ecosystems/article/37609

Seychelles
http://www.afrol.com/articles/31418

Puerto Rico
http://www.livescience.com/10403-huge-coral-reefs-discovered-puerto-rico.html

Tonga
http://www.tongaholiday.com/?p=6742

Mediterranean
http://blog.simplyscuba.com/index.php/2011/09/new-coral-reef-found-in-alboran-sea/

Florida
http://aquadaily.com/2008/12/18/three-new-deep-water-reefs-discovered-off-the-coast-of-florida/
http://soundwaves.usgs.gov/2005/02/research2.html

This one is basically in my back yard
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2005/oct/14/ndn_discovery_of_coral_reefs_off_collier_shores_sp/

Not to mention that staghorn corals are being found in "new locations" all the time. Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Fort Pierce, Flower Banks (Texas)

I would say that 75% or more of the stories you see in the news are just that....stories to sell the newspaper or magazine.

I love the fact that all of these "scare tactic" news stories talk about how many thousands of years it takes for corals to grow. But, they don't really have any good scientific research or data of reefs 1000's of years ago.

So, here's a question for you.....Bikini Atoll was nuked in the 1950's. Pretty sure we can consider that to be complete destruction of the reef. Explain 8 meter tall corals in 60 years! An excerpt:

"Richards and colleagues report a thriving ecosystem of 183 species of coral, some of which were 8 metres high. They estimate that the diversity of species represents about 65% of what was present before the atomic tests"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13668-nuked-coral-reef-bounces-back.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3339485/Marine-life-flourishes-at-Bikini-Atoll-test-site.html

The actual published paper: http://www.bikiniatoll.com/BIKINICORALS.pdf

The point I'm trying to make is that bad news sells. Good news doesn't. Don't buy into all of the crap that is out there. A lot of it is exactly that....crap.

Now, that being said, I do believe that we have a huge responsibility to clean up after ourselves! And in many cases, don't make the mess to begin with.

I'm a big fan of these guys and think you will start to see more organization like this popping up all over the world.
http://www.coralrestoration.org/

[billsreef]

Just because old well established, and heretofore unfound, reefs have been discovered is a far cry from saying the reefs are doing better than oft reported. It would be interesting to see some cores done on those reefs to get an idea of their history as compared to current conditions. We only have the current snapshot of those reefs, no knowledge of how any changes for better or worse that they might have undergone similar to the well known and well studied reefs.

[Luiz Rocha]

I love the fact that all of these "scare tactic" news stories talk about how many thousands of years it takes for corals to grow. But, they don't really have any good scientific research or data of reefs 1000's of years ago.

Really? Just do a google search and you will find plenty of evidence that reefs take thousands of years to grow.

So, here's a question for you.....Bikini Atoll was nuked in the 1950's. Pretty sure we can consider that to be complete destruction of the reef. Explain 8 meter tall corals in 60 years! An excerpt:

"Richards and colleagues report a thriving ecosystem of 183 species of coral, some of which were 8 metres high. They estimate that the diversity of species represents about 65% of what was present before the atomic tests"


I not only know what you are talking about, but I have actually dove in bikini. The 8 meter tall corals did not grow in 60 years. They were either not affected by the explosions, or are new growth over old colonies. I saw this, with my own eyes. I also saw the crater of the Castle Bravo test, the largest nuclear explosion ever set off by the US. There is absolutely no coral left around it.

As Bill says, finding previously undiscovered reefs has nothing to do with the fact that we are destroying them.

[jdhuyvetter]

I think you both missed the point I was trying to make. I am not disputing that man has had a negative impact on many reefs around the world. I am disputing the assumption that man is destroying every reef around the world.

I am trying to point out that just because you read it on the internet does not make it true! I'm all for coring and solid research. But, just read through the two pages of posts here and look at how many "opinions" are be presented as "facts".

Further, I was trying to point out that bad news sells. Do a google search like you said and you will see the same thing regurgitated a thousand different ways. Doesn't make it all true! Again, instead of the constant bashing, where is the news about the progress that has been made? The steps that are being made for restoration?

[jdhuyvetter]

I not only know what you are talking about, but I have actually dove in bikini. The 8 meter tall corals did not grow in 60 years. They were either not affected by the explosions, or are new growth over old colonies. I saw this, with my own eyes. I also saw the crater of the Castle Bravo test, the largest nuclear explosion ever set off by the US. There is absolutely no coral left around it.


Thank you for helping me make my point. Either the scientific paper I found on the internet and referenced in my post is correct and refutes many assumptions previously made. OR, a scientific paper I found on the internet is completely wrong. Either way, something "scientific" on the internet is wrong.

Now (and please don't take this as an attack, I really am curious..and a little jealous)....you say you have dove Bikini. Did you see the corals referenced in the paper? If so, where are they relative to the Castle Bravo test (ie, how far away)? You say they were either not affected or new growth over old colonies. I would have assumed that a nuclear blast this large would have had a huge impact for miles around. Either the corals would have died or been knocked over from the shock wave. Also, if new growth is growing over old coral, I would have thought that the growth pattern would be completely different. Do you know if anyone has actually cored these corals. New growth over old would surely show up in a core.

For the record, I have no doubt that a coral could grow 8 meters in 60 years. That works out to about 5 inches per year. That is done all the time in an aquarium environment (and in some of the corals in the nursery link above). And before anyone bashes me on that one, yes, I am aware that most corals will not grow that fast. I am just stating that some do in captivity and probably can in the wild.

And lastly, did you ever post any Bikini pics on RC. I really would like to see them. Again, not challenging you in any way. Just want to drool a little bit!

[keywestcoralboy]

Come to KW I'll show you some of the saddest reefs in the hemisphere. Not saying there arent some beautiful ones down here but there has been some amazing die off in the last 10 yrs. in my marine biology class we met a photographer that for the last 10 yrs has been photographing the same few huge coral heads and staghorn corals. All of theses have seen a huge decline in health and living tissue. It makes me sick to think of what we have done to the ocean but greed rules the world I guess.

[jdhuyvetter]

I've been there many times over the past 20 years. I am not in disagreement that many of the reefs have degraded over the years. I have seen that first hand. Especially the patch reefs in Hawk's Channel. But, not all of it has been man made. Looe Key was hammered by Hurricane Georges. Wiped out nearly all of the Elkhorn. The last two years of record cold snaps in the winter have wiped out nearly all of the mustard corals in the shallow water and back bays (still lots on the outer reef). Surprisingly, the porites (finger variety, not the mustard boulders) have exploded in the past two years. At least in the areas that I dove. A few years back, you could snorkel on the North side of Spanish Harbor and see a few porites here and there. Now, there are areas where they are like a fuzzy brown carpet.

[coralreefdoc]

Cuts my guts out, everyday. Makes you just want to cry ...

[billsreef]

I think you both missed the point I was trying to make. I am not disputing that man has had a negative impact on many reefs around the world. I am disputing the assumption that man is destroying every reef around the world.

Didn't miss the point, and I exepect Luiz didn't either. We're simply trying to point out that the historical data needed to prove those reefs are just as healthy as they were a decade, two decades, or longer ago does not exist. These reefs are far from new, just new to being publicly known. While it is good to think they might be just as healthy as they were 100 years ago, the evidence for that does not exist yet...due simply to a lack of looking for it as yet. Now having that work down to prove things one way are another would certainly be enlightening. Especially has all but one (the Gulf Coast FL reef) are in fairly remote locations.

[Paul B]

I have no idea why the reefs are in trouble but I have some ideas on the ones near populated islands. I have dove almost every Island in the Caribbean and once dove there a week after a hurricane. If the Islands were not inhabitated not much would have happened to the reefs but the run off from sugar plantations, marina.s, roads and just dirt where there are no crops growing covered and killed the corals for a few miles out. This is something we can not stop because there are just to many of us.
Years ago you could see literally tons of dead corals for salt to tourists in Jamaica. They were just broken off the reefs and dried in the sun. One place in Jamacia there was a line of this about 100 yards long.
That is easy to see but in places like Bora Bora where I took this picture, the reefs are also dying only not as fast. Bora Bora is about as far from any place as you can get so the human factor is not as obvious. Almost no one lives there and there is very little agriculture. The reefs are much better there then the Caribbean but almost all the tongue corals I saw were dead and they were piled up many feet thick.
I am going with rising seawater temps along with acid rain and pollution.
I think it is a combination
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Guppies.jpg

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/LongNose.jpg

[jdhuyvetter]

Didn't miss the point, and I exepect Luiz didn't either. We're simply trying to point out that the historical data needed to prove those reefs are just as healthy as they were a decade, two decades, or longer ago does not exist. These reefs are far from new, just new to being publicly known. While it is good to think they might be just as healthy as they were 100 years ago, the evidence for that does not exist yet...due simply to a lack of looking for it as yet. Now having that work down to prove things one way are another would certainly be enlightening. Especially has all but one (the Gulf Coast FL reef) are in fairly remote locations.

Agreed. When I say "new" in this case, I mean newly discovered. The exception being the "new" staghorn corals that have been popping up in areas where they were not historically (Broward County in the late 1990's, Palm Beach and Martin Counties in the last decade and most recently the Flower Banks off of Texas).

My personal opinion in this:

The coral reefs are not disappearing all over the world. There are definitely "hot spots" were they are in trouble. And in some cases, severe trouble. Much of it is the fault (directly or indirectly) of human activity. A lot of it is not. There are also newly discovered coral reefs all of the time as well as instances of "new" coral. Again, back to my questions/comments. Never hear about the good. Only the bad, and in many (if not most) the bad is over inflated. Again, using Florida as an example. You can find 100's if not 1000's of stories about the staghorns and elkhorns dying in the Keys. But you need to look for quite a while to find 1 story about the "new" staghorn growths off of Broward and Palm Beach Counties. (and in this case, I do mean new growth, not newly discovered) Where's the research on why that has happened? Don't you think the causes for the expansion of this particular coral species into previously uncolonized areas could be beneficial to other reefs around the world?

And as far as my references to "newly discovered" reefs....obviously science has not surveyed all of the reefs in the world. So, how could anyone scientifically say that all of the coral reefs are disappearing or in trouble?

[billsreef]

Agreed. When I say "new" in this case, I mean newly discovered. The exception being the "new" staghorn corals that have been popping up in areas where they were not historically (Broward County in the late 1990's, Palm Beach and Martin Counties in the last decade and most recently the Flower Banks off of Texas).

Most scientists I know of attribute this to warming waters. We are seeing waters further north reach higher temps, and holding high temps for longer in the year than has previously been seen. With this, it's not surprising to see tropical species expand their range northward. It should also be noted, some of those northern colonies have been seen to have some drastic declines in the time they've been known of...I have this from personal communications with a friend doing research on the colonies off of Ft. Lauderdale...the one site specifically mentioned as having a severe die back a couple of years ago is also showing some remarkable recovery since the die off event. I've also yet to see any stag or elkhorn growth in the northern part of Dade or southern part of Broward counties that is even remotely comparable to the former growths found in the Keys I've seen back in the 80's. So while they might be expanding north, it's at a rate to suggest we'll just be seeing a northward of expansion of reefs like we know.

Don't you think the causes for the expansion of this particular coral species into previously uncolonized areas could be beneficial to other reefs around the world?

Since that northward expansion is linked to the same warming trends linked to problems with those other reefs, I have my doubts.

And as far as my references to "newly discovered" reefs....obviously science has not surveyed all of the reefs in the world. So, how could anyone scientifically say that all of the coral reefs are disappearing or in trouble?

Since the problems that most scientist think are the root of the problems are global in nature, it's hard to think some place on the globe wouldn't be effected by them to some degree. I think the biggest factor might be more local influences that could tip the balance...aka additional stressors that make it harder for the coral to deal with the more global sorts.

[jdhuyvetter]

I've heard that too (warming trends). But I've seen no research data to back it up. (but, to be honest, I haven't looked that hard).

So, in your opinion, do you think this is isolated to the east coast of Florida due to the Gulf Stream or is this worldwide? If world wide, shouldn't we start hearing about new coral growth southward across Africa and Australia and northward off of Asia and perhaps into the Mediterranean. What about the western Americas (northern S. America and Central America)?

[keywestcoralboy]

Not too stir the pot but maybe the staghorn hasn't been spontaneously growing up north as much as it has been spotted more. Due to its gain in popularity in the aquarium industry and national interest in saving the reef. I am a life long diver and spearo I didn't see my first local acro till I got a aquarium and started looking because until you are looking for something it just kinda blends into the rics and gorges while you look for grouper.

[billsreef]

I've heard that too (warming trends). But I've seen no research data to back it up. (but, to be honest, I haven't looked that hard).

So, in your opinion, do you think this is isolated to the east coast of Florida due to the Gulf Stream or is this worldwide? If world wide, shouldn't we start hearing about new coral growth southward across Africa and Australia and northward off of Asia and perhaps into the Mediterranean. What about the western Americas (northern S. America and Central America)?

Need to look into historical water temperature trends. Just to use an example I'm most familiar with, the decline in North American Lobster populations in the southern part of it's range is primarily thought to be a result of rising and prolonged high water temps. Going back not much more than a decade, the waters of southern New England and Long Island rarely got above 70F, and when they did it only lasted an average of 10 days in late August/early September. The past several years we've seen temps over 70 on a yearly basis, and lasting on the average of 40 to 60 days. For cold water critters like the lobster it is quite a problem. Also more southern species of fish are being found more frequently farther north.

As for similarities on other coasts and continents, I expect you'll find them if you look for them.

[vitz]

Anyone who really wants to know how reefs WORLDWIDE are doing should subscribe to noaa's 'coral-list' server.

If every single combustion engine on the planet stopped tomorrow, it wouldn't make one iota of difference- the damage is now done-all (tropical)reefs will be dead,completely dead, in less than 50 yrs. Once the reefs go, the oceans go. (Vis-a-vis what we depend on the oceans for as far as food,namely fish). Once the oceans go, we'll prob'ly follow.



There is indeed an absolute consensus in the scientific community that man made rapid climate change is an irrefutable fact- regardless of what some oil co. pseudo scientist shill claims/says ;)


The final death sentence was just passed in Durban at the recent climate change protocol conference.

[vitz]

Speaking of coral-list, here's a frightening letter just posted by Thomas Goreau. Some food for thought:

"It is long known to all serious global climate change experts that the global sensitivity of temperature and sea level to CO2 indicates that there must be very large positive feedback mechanisms that AMPLIFY global warming, which are not included in the conventional models, making model based climate projections very serious UNDERESTIMATES of future change.


Today the fact that one of these mechanisms is just starting to kick in was revealed, melting of the Arctic Ice Caps is starting to release enormous quantities of very potent greenhouse gases that will further accelerate global warming:


Coral reefs will be the first ecosystem to go extinct from global warming, far sooner than anyone realizes, but they won't be the last!



Thomas J. Goreau, PhD
President,*Global Coral Reef Alliance
President, Biorock International Corp.
Coordinator, United Nations Commission on Sustainable Development Partnership in New Technologies for Small Island Developing States"

[jdhuyvetter]

Anyone who really wants to know how reefs WORLDWIDE are doing should subscribe to noaa's 'coral-list' server.

If every single combustion engine on the planet stopped tomorrow, it wouldn't make one iota of difference- the damage is now done-all (tropical)reefs will be dead,completely dead, in less than 50 yrs. Once the reefs go, the oceans go. (Vis-a-vis what we depend on the oceans for as far as food,namely fish). Once the oceans go, we'll prob'ly follow.



There is indeed an absolute consensus in the scientific community that man made rapid climate change is an irrefutable fact- regardless of what some oil co. pseudo scientist shill claims/says ;)


The final death sentence was just passed in Durban at the recent climate change protocol conference.



Interesting comments.

First off, NOAA is well known for being completely accurate in every forecast that they have ever made.

Second, when I have troubles in my tank and the corals begin to die off. When I fix the problem, they grow back. According to you, they will just continue to die.

I was not aware that scientists have ever had an absolute consensus on anything.

What happened in Durban that is going to cause me to die?

[billsreef]

Interesting quote from a researcher here in South Florida. Taking from here (http://casgroup.fiu.edu/marine/news.php?id=2429), though I could just as easily talk to him in person.

“A healthy coral reef is typically covered 30 to 50 percent in live coral,” Burkepile said. “Recently, coral reefs in the Florida Keys have been found to have only 5 to 10 percent coverage.”

When I fix the problem, they grow back. According to you, they will just continue to die.

What Vitz is referring to is the thought they've already pushed things past a point of no return...things like those polar ice caps releasing trapped CO2 as they melt they just add to issues and essentially cause a feedback loop that will just keep on going. There is not absolute consensus that stopping all emissions won't help, but there does seem to be absolute resignation that big enough decline in our man made emissions will never actually occur...and that goes into global politics...

[vitz]

Interesting quote from a researcher here in South Florida. Taking from here (http://casgroup.fiu.edu/marine/news.php?id=2429), though I could just as easily talk to him in person.





What Vitz is referring to is the thought they've already pushed things past a point of no return...things like those polar ice caps releasing trapped CO2 as they melt they just add to issues and essentially cause a feedback loop that will just keep on going. There is not absolute consensus that stopping all emissions won't help, but there does seem to be absolute resignation that big enough decline in our man made emissions will never actually occur...and that goes into global politics...

Ding ding!
You, sir, may have any kewpie doll of your choosing :)

[power boat jim]

When ever someone predicts the end of all things as we know it and then goes on to state the internal combustion engine as the sole cause, I cant help but think they have ZERO credibility. We cant predict what a winter will bring with ANY degree of accuracy 3 months out let alone predict the entire destruction of the oceans and mankind.

If you look back, the earth's climate is still adjusting to an ice age that ended only 10,000 years ago.It could be argued that the ice caps and glaciers are the last remaining element of the ice age and their destruction is inevitable and natural. we have only possibly hastened the process. The earth historically has been a much warmer place then it is now. Climate change is going on no doubt, but never have the oceans been devoid of life the way some doomsayers claim they will be. Even when a meteor hit the planet 65 million years ago life in the oceans continued. Its logical to me that as ocean temps warm coral reefs and their inhabitants will move north and south to more temperate climates. If you want to predict the future it helps to look at the past.

[vitz]

Interesting comments.

First off, NOAA is well known for being completely accurate in every forecast that they have ever made.

Second, when I have troubles in my tank and the corals begin to die off. When I fix the problem, they grow back. According to you, they will just continue to die.

I was not aware that scientists have ever had an absolute consensus on anything.

What happened in Durban that is going to cause me to die?

Food for very serious thought:

The reefs worldwide haven't 'begun' to die-they've been dying for decades. I visited Eilat in '76, and again in '82-the amount of death then was astounding and profoundly obvious (as I'm sure it was in many other areas)

I can destroy any reef tank in less than 5 minutes-can't create one in 5 minutes

Ignorance isn't bliss

Most of the people who challenge the consensus of ACC (anthropomorphic climate change) are completely ignorant of both the science and present data available (there are mountains of irrefutable data) -trying to discuss the matter w/such is a non starter ;)

(My one 'consolation' is that I never had kids- I couldn't bear the thought of bringing a human life
Into existence on this planet the way it is,and the way it will be.)

[vitz]

When ever someone predicts the end of all things as we know it and then goes on to state the internal combustion engine as the sole cause, I cant help but think they have ZERO credibility. We cant predict what a winter will bring with ANY degree of accuracy 3 months out let alone predict the entire destruction of the oceans and mankind.

If you look back, the earth's climate is still adjusting to an ice age that ended only 10,000 years ago.It could be argued that the ice caps and glaciers are the last remaining element of the ice age and their destruction is inevitable and natural. we have only possibly hastened the process. The earth historically has been a much warmer place then it is now. Climate change is going on no doubt, but never have the oceans been devoid of life the way some doomsayers claim they will be. Even when a meteor hit the planet 65 million years ago life in the oceans continued. Its logical to me that as ocean temps warm coral reefs and their inhabitants will move north and south to more temperate climates. If you want to predict the future it helps to look at the past.


I never said the internal combustion engine is the sole cause of global warming,nor did I imply it. Damn these pesky facts-they keep getting in the way!

[power boat jim]

See post 60 and tell me what it means then.

[vitz]

I find it somewhat odd and amazing how people can have one of the best clear examples of feedback loop effects/dynamics in the form of a reef tank in their house, and be completely oblivious to the concept as regards this planet. Makes me very sad.

[vitz]

Saying that stopping all combustion engines will not make a difference in stopping the feedback loops we've started is miles away from saying that combustion engines are the sole cause of climate change. I truly hope you can see that.

[vitz]

I thought I'd copied Dr. Goreau's email in it's entirety-my apologies. Here's the rest of it- the server seems to have cut it off at the end.

"THE INDEPENDENT

Shock as retreat of Arctic sea ice releases deadly greenhouse gas

Russian research team astonished after finding 'fountains' of methane bubbling to surface

STEVE CONNOR

TUESDAY 13 DECEMBER 2011


Dramatic and unprecedented plumes of methane – a greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide – have been seen bubbling to the surface of the Arctic Ocean by scientists undertaking an extensive survey of the region.

The scale and volume of the methane release has astonished the head of the Russian research team who has been surveying the seabed of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf off northern Russia for nearly 20 years.

In an exclusive interview with The Independent, Igor Semiletov, of the Far Eastern branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, said that he has never before witnessed the scale and force of the methane being released from beneath the Arctic seabed.

"Earlier we found torch-like structures like this but they were only tens of metres in diameter. This is the first time that we've found continuous, powerful and impressive seeping structures, more than 1,000 metres in diameter. It's amazing," Dr Semiletov said. "I was most impressed by the sheer scale and high density of the plumes. Over a relatively small area we found more than 100, but over a wider area there should be thousands of them."

Scientists estimate that there are hundreds of millions of tonnes of methane gas locked away beneath the Arctic permafrost, which extends from the mainland into the seabed of the relatively shallow sea of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf. One of the greatest fears is that with the disappearance of the Arctic sea-ice in summer, and rapidly rising te"

[power boat jim]

Since it was the only example named in specific I took that as the meaning, and yes I do understand feedback loops quite well. If I misunderstood then thats on me.

[power boat jim]

The rest of the article sure helps.:cool:

[jdhuyvetter]

Food for very serious thought:

The reefs worldwide haven't 'begun' to die-they've been dying for decades. I visited Eilat in '76, and again in '82-the amount of death then was astounding and profoundly obvious (as I'm sure it was in many other areas)

I can destroy any reef tank in less than 5 minutes-can't create one in 5 minutes

Ignorance isn't bliss

Most of the people who challenge the consensus of ACC (anthropomorphic climate change) are completely ignorant of both the science and present data available (there are mountains of irrefutable data) -trying to discuss the matter w/such is a non starter ;)

(My one 'consolation' is that I never had kids- I couldn't bear the thought of bringing a human life
Into existence on this planet the way it is,and the way it will be.)

The reefs have been dying off for millenia. Long before people have been around. What frustrates me is that many (if not most) people assume that we are the cause of all of it. What about the nice fossil corals on my shelf that I collected in Ohio and Kentucky. Pretty sure man wasn't the cause of that one. What about the fossil corals and sand dollars I collected in S. Florida in the past 6 months. They are anywhere from 20 to 50 miles inland. Pretty sure I didn't have anything to do with that one either. Amazingly, even though they died in their entirety, reefs popped up elsewhere. You want to tell me that the moron that drug his boat anchor across the Breakers Reef needs to be thrown in jail....now we have something to agree upon. You want to tell me that the septic systems in Monroe County (FL Keys) need to be upgraded so that there is no effluent runoff....something else we can agree on!

I for one can create a reef in 5 minutes....(ok, sustaining it might be a problem)

Sorry you think I'm ignorant because I think that just because I read it on the internet, I don't think it's true.

I sincerely hope the mountains of irrefutable evidence you are referring to is not anything that came out of the UN or any other group that relies on scare tactics for funding. (and no, I'm not saying that all evidence is based on lies. I do not dispute man has had a negative impact on many things on this planet....reefs included. Just don't hand me a bowl of crap with sprinkles on top and call it ice cream)

I don't have kids either. But not because I'm scared the will ruin the planet. I personally think that we have a wonderful planet and love life....just need to clean up our mess.

[Luiz Rocha]

Thanks guys, thread officially derailed. IBTL.

jdhuyvetter: even if we completely eliminate climate change there are many other human activities that are destroying the reefs (pollution, sedimentation, anchoring, overfishing, destructive fishing, etc). 95% of the species on earth are now extinct. Many times in our planet's geological history, a lot of species went extinct. Extinction is a natural process. Does this mean we should burn the entire Amazon forest? That is what we are doing with the reefs.

[vitz]

"What do you think about the disappearing of coral reef around the world?"

I honestly think everyone's post in this thread directly responds to your question appropriately. How has the thread been derailed?

(Honest question-no trolling here) :)

[power boat jim]

Thanks guys, thread officially derailed. IBTL.

jdhuyvetter: even if we completely eliminate climate change there are many other human activities that are destroying the reefs (pollution, sedimentation, anchoring, overfishing, destructive fishing, etc). 95% of the species on earth are now extinct. Many times in our planet's geological history, a lot of species went extinct. Extinction is a natural process. Does this mean we should burn the entire Amazon forest? That is what we are doing with the reefs.

Yes, the reefs are being destroyed by pollution and all the associated activities. The question is how do we reverse this trend. There are so many different countries and parties around the world that would have to see this as the same problem we do. You could probably never get the cooperation needed world wide for this to happen. I hope I am proven wrong but if history is an indicator...

[vitz]

You may as well ask 'how do you get 7 billion people to agree on anything unanimously?'

;)

[jdhuyvetter]

I completely agree with you Luiz. The points/comments I am trying to make are pretty much directed at the "over the top" comments that constantly pop up in these "discussions". Appologies if you think I have derailed the conversation.

A few examples from this thread:



.......people walking on and picking at the reefs.

Surely and issue and one that needs to be stopped. But cause for reefs dying all over the world? I don't think so.

Over population of the human species has led to this.

Really?! I would have thought our planet could support a lot more people than it currently does. Irresponsible behaviour of the population...that I can buy!



Humans are killing off the reefs....... Stop taking fish and inverts... I don't keep fish tanks cause they add a nice touch to the living room; I keep them because I want to learn more about them, and their natural environment.

I actually agree with a lot of comments in this post. I just found the contradiction interesting.


Guarantee nuclear fusion and solar energy will have a whole lot more funding when gas is $12 a gallon.
I disagree, but probably on too much of a political basis to comment here. However, I will say that solar power advances have come a long way. FPL (Florida Power & Light) is now building solar farms in Florida. It's all in the economics. On a commercial level, it's starting to become viable. Just not on an individual level. I just reroofed my house. They actually make solar panel roof tiles. I looked into them for my house, but they would have added about $20,000 to the cost of the roof. Not quite there yet for the average consumer. But, I do believe that the day is coming.

Here we go again, just keep believing 7 billion people cannot "change" a planet, but the fact is that we can. Short list of ways we (humans) do affect reefs, none of which are related to global warming:

1. Pollution (self-explanatory);
2. Sedimentation (most coastal forests are gone, without the forests all the sediment washes up in the reef);
3. Overfishing causing changes in the ecosystem equilibrium;
4. Destructive fishing (cyanide, dynamite, trawling);
5. Physically breaking the reef (either walking on it, dropping anchors, making ship channels or harvesting coral for limestone);
6. Marine debris (a.k.a. trash).

I included this because this is one of the few posts that I agree with 110%.

I wrote a paper on ocean acidification, and I learned a lot in the process.......

This isn't helped by fossil fuels because not only are their emissions recking havoc on our ecosystems, but fossil fuels are what give us the ability to sustain such a large population.

I would have thought that the huge increase in population was more attributed to the huge increase in life span as a result of medical and food advances. We now live to about 80 on average and one acre produces more food than ever before. Again, just opinion. This might make for an interesting "side bar" discussion.


If every single combustion engine on the planet stopped tomorrow, it wouldn't make one iota of difference-


There is indeed an absolute consensus in the scientific community that man made rapid climate change is an irrefutable fact-

My two favorite "over the top" comments in this thread


Coral reefs will be the first ecosystem to go extinct from global warming, far sooner than anyone realizes, but they won't be the last!


Assuming that global warming is 100% man made and is the only cause of coral reef die off, I'm still not sure I can buy into this one! I would think temperate forests or the tundra environments would be the first to go. Again, an interesting "side bar" discussion.




(My one 'consolation' is that I never had kids- I couldn't bear the thought of bringing a human life
Into existence on this planet the way it is,and the way it will be.)

I actually find this comment kind of depressing. I feel bad for you and I truly wisht that you enjoyed life more.

...... Many times in our planet's geological history, a lot of species went extinct. Extinction is a natural process. Does this mean we should burn the entire Amazon forest? That is what we are doing with the reefs.

EXACTLY. And no, we should not. Hence why I am a huge fan of aquaculture and reef restoration. Who in this thread to this point has an aquaculture certificate? (I do). Who in this thread has a tank that is entirely made up of aquacultured fish and inverts (I do). Who in this thread has donated to a reef restoration project? (I have twice).

And no, not trying to blast those of that haven't. I understand that many people that don't live in coastal areas do not have the same "options" that I do here in Florida. I am just trying to point out that I am not "ignorant" of the reef issues. I just don't buy into a lot of the "reasons" why the reefs are in trouble. I also believe that mother nature is far more resilient than most people give her credit.

I will also be the first to admit that in 20 years, I have made some huge mistakes in the world of reefing and fishkeeping in general. I do my best to try to ensure that people don't make the same mistakes I have (I do think that one might be a losing battle

[billsreef]

If you look back, the earth's climate is still adjusting to an ice age that ended only 10,000 years ago.It could be argued that the ice caps and glaciers are the last remaining element of the ice age and their destruction is inevitable and natural. we have only possibly hastened the process. The earth historically has been a much warmer place then it is now. Climate change is going on no doubt, but never have the oceans been devoid of life the way some doomsayers claim they will be. Even when a meteor hit the planet 65 million years ago life in the oceans continued. Its logical to me that as ocean temps warm coral reefs and their inhabitants will move north and south to more temperate climates. If you want to predict the future it helps to look at the past.

When you look back at the past, you need to look at the rates of change as well. The current rate of change is faster than anything in the past, and it's that rate that is heart of the claims of the reefs not adapting. When you ignore the popular media and just look at the science...the scientists are not saying there is not a natural warming trend going on, they are saying our contribution to it is causing it occur at a faster rate along with an expectation that the warming trend will peak higher than previous natural trends.


I disagree, but probably on too much of a political basis to comment here. However, I will say that solar power advances have come a long way. FPL (Florida Power & Light) is now building solar farms in Florida. It's all in the economics. On a commercial level, it's starting to become viable. Just not on an individual level. I just reroofed my house. They actually make solar panel roof tiles. I looked into them for my house, but they would have added about $20,000 to the cost of the roof. Not quite there yet for the average consumer. But, I do believe that the day is coming.

Actually in some areas of the country (Long Island is one), electric rates are high enough that solar panels rapidly pay for themselves on an individual basis. Though they certainly do have a ways to go to be cost effective in areas with low rates like Florida.

Assuming that global warming is 100% man made and is the only cause of coral reef die off, I'm still not sure I can buy into this one! I would think temperate forests or the tundra environments would be the first to go. Again, an interesting "side bar" discussion.

That assumption is only made by those in the media...sensationalism sells :( See my earlier comments in this post, as well as Luiz's comments about other impacts on the reefs.

In regards to temperate forests, they actually have wider temperature tolerances than reefs which IMO make them more adaptable to change. My understanding of the the tundras is that they are indeed in trouble...possible not much behind the reefs.

I just don't buy into a lot of the "reasons" why the reefs are in trouble. I also believe that mother nature is far more resilient than most people give her credit.

Yes, mother nature is quite resilient. But I've seen enough changes in my lifetime to think we've tilted things past that resilience...at least in terms of things remaining the way we currently know them.

[billsreef]

On a complete and utter Lounge style side track....

Luiz, is this guy (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19624828&postcount=4799) any relation? Only difference in his name is an s instead of a z :)

[power boat jim]

I cant disagree with anything you said Bill. I think if ocean warming were the only problem facing the reefs they would migrate to cooler climes. The problem is compounded by pollution destruction of habitat and god knows what else. Its a problem that has to addressed on a global scale not just here. This of course is bases soley on my opinion and in keeping with a lounge style, pass me a bag of frags so I can do my part to save the planet.

[alton]

(Really?! I would have thought our planet could support a lot more people than it currently does. Irresponsible behaviour of the population...that I can buy!)

You might want to check out what is happening in south Texas where large cities/counties are buying up water rights from other counties from older people who are money hungry not realizing they will not be able to pump there own water in the future. Also where some pay a $100 more a month on water than electricity.
What do you expect people to eat in the next 20 years, our oceans are running out of food. Continue to add to our population and you continue to add to our shortage of food, pollution and waste. Hard to believe but you will see a shortage in beef in the next few years.

[Luiz Rocha]

On a complete and utter Lounge style side track....

Luiz, is this guy (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19624828&postcount=4799) any relation? Only difference in his name is an s instead of a z :)

Haha, no idea who that is Bill! All I can say is that the spelling with an "s" is much more common. :)

[joeyvu]

After reading the whole thread, one believe human is the main cause of this Global Warming and this cause massive coral reefs disappearing...
I think I have a solution, might be a radical solution...I think every human on planet should terminate their lives at 65...Every one should eat twice a day at the minimum survival amount of food...Every one should bycycle to work every day....We can try this out for one or two decade and see if the Global warming cease and we know that human is the main cause....
I know it is easy to say than to really pratice what you believe...No one want to die at age 65, instead want to live longer and healthier; want to eat whenever and whatever they please; want to drive and fly all over the world whenever they have a chance....Any body even think whenever you turn on a switch of any machines one have in our house, about pollution that cause global warming?..( I don't care about solar or wind turbine because when they are produced, they also pollute the environment)...I have heard so much about the negative news about this and human thing and no one offer any real solution or willing to practice what they believe in...Just ask what other should practice...I know the truth hurts...
Peace...!!! Just my opinion....Please don't get offended...Please think about it...Are you willing to practice what you preach to the max?...I know I can't, just do what I can do only as one humanbeing on this planet...

[r-balljunkie]

After reading the whole thread, one believe human is the main cause of this Global Warming and this cause massive coral reefs disappearing...
I think I have a solution, might be a radical solution...I think every human on planet should terminate their lives at 65...Every one should eat twice a day at the minimum survival amount of food...Every one should bycycle to work every day....We can try this out for one or two decade and see if the Global warming cease and we know that human is the main cause....
I know it is easy to say than to really pratice what you believe...No one want to die at age 65, instead want to live longer and healthier; want to eat whenever and whatever they please; want to drive and fly all over the world whenever they have a chance....Any body even think whenever you turn on a switch of any machines one have in our house, about pollution that cause global warming?..( I don't care about solar or wind turbine because when they are produced, they also pollute the environment)...I have heard so much about the negative news about this and human thing and no one offer any real solution or willing to practice what they believe in...Just ask what other should practice...I know the truth hurts...
Peace...!!! Just my opinion....Please don't get offended...Please think about it...Are you willing to practice what you preach to the max?...I know I can't, just do what I can do only as one humanbeing on this planet...



I’m offended. Myself, and everyone in my family rides a bike every day to work, heck we don’t own a car...there's no personal cars on my island, and I love it.:spin1::spin1:

You’re right. There’s a bit of self righteousness in everyone reading this thread, to some extent or degree. There's no real answer because the question is too broad.
If you own an aquarium, you’re directly contributing to the problem as well. I’m to blame too when I go out and get corals or collect fish myself.

I’m adding to the problem as well, albeit you don’t measure into the fact that it’s not shipped on an airplane 2000 miles, packaged twice over and presented in a nice display at the LFS.
Do I believe the reefs will disappear in 50 years? Perhaps in some areas, but not the whole range of coral formations that span 30 degrees, north and south of the equator.
There’s no good answer to the question posed.

[Luiz Rocha]

After reading the whole thread, one believe human is the main cause of this Global Warming and this cause massive coral reefs disappearing...
I think I have a solution, might be a radical solution...I think every human on planet should terminate their lives at 65...Every one should eat twice a day at the minimum survival amount of food...Every one should bycycle to work every day....We can try this out for one or two decade and see if the Global warming cease and we know that human is the main cause....
I know it is easy to say than to really pratice what you believe...No one want to die at age 65, instead want to live longer and healthier; want to eat whenever and whatever they please; want to drive and fly all over the world whenever they have a chance....Any body even think whenever you turn on a switch of any machines one have in our house, about pollution that cause global warming?..( I don't care about solar or wind turbine because when they are produced, they also pollute the environment)...I have heard so much about the negative news about this and human thing and no one offer any real solution or willing to practice what they believe in...Just ask what other should practice...I know the truth hurts...
Peace...!!! Just my opinion....Please don't get offended...Please think about it...Are you willing to practice what you preach to the max?...I know I can't, just do what I can do only as one humanbeing on this planet...

The beauty of it is that we can do everything that we do today (including everything that you list) more efficiently if we put our minds and effort into it. Of course humans will always have an impact in this planet, the question is how much of an impact.

Yes, solar generators and wind turbines can be produced in factories that adhere to strict environmental standards. It is more expensive, but only because our infrastructure is entirely built around fossil fuel.

The logic of what you are saying is exactly the same logic in this statement: "I am not going to shower ever again because I get dirty every day".

I’m offended. Myself, and everyone in my family rides a bike every day to work, heck we don’t own a car...there's no personal cars on my island, and I love it.:spin1::spin1:

You’re right. There’s a bit of self righteousness in everyone reading this thread, to some extent or degree. There's no real answer because the question is too broad.
If you own an aquarium, you’re directly contributing to the problem as well. I’m to blame too when I go out and get corals or collect fish myself.

I’m adding to the problem as well, albeit you don’t measure into the fact that it’s not shipped on an airplane 2000 miles, packaged twice over and presented in a nice display at the LFS.
Do I believe the reefs will disappear in 50 years? Perhaps in some areas, but not the whole range of coral formations that span 30 degrees, north and south of the equator.
There’s no good answer to the question posed.

Are you in Kwaj? I sure miss it, spent two weeks diving there a few years ago with Brian Greene. But I totally agree with you, I think we will have different reefs in 50 years, but I highly doubt the coral reef ecosystem will completely disappear as some are estimating.

[r-balljunkie]

The beauty of it is that we can do everything that we do today (including everything that you list) more efficiently if we put our minds and effort into it. Of course humans will always have an impact in this planet, the question is how much of an impact.

Yes, solar generators and wind turbines can be produced in factories that adhere to strict environmental standards. It is more expensive, but only because our infrastructure is entirely built around fossil fuel.

The logic of what you are saying is exactly the same logic in this statement: "I am not going to shower ever again because I get dirty every day".



Are you in Kwaj? I sure miss it, spent two weeks diving there a few years ago with Brian Greene. But I totally agree with you, I think we will have different reefs in 50 years, but I highly doubt the coral reef ecosystem will completely disappear as some are estimating.

yeah Luiz, im on kwaj. Me and Brian are good buddies. He is a wicked diver, i cant hold his diving bag considering how many and what types of dives he has done. Total diving Guru..... He drags me out with him every now and then.

Ill tell him you said hi.

you will probably recognize his boat, the golden cowrie from some of the pics in this thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2016812




OP, my sincerest apologies for the highjacking and slight derail.

chuck

[r-balljunkie]

Luiz,

stopped by Brian's place today after diving and told him you sent your regards. He spoke very very highly of you.

I love BB's, you never know who will chime in, and what their real life credentials are. :)

Won't elaborate too much. Hope to see you back in the Marshall islands in the near future, perhaps we can get some dives in too.

chuck

[alton]

Did anybody catch 60 minutes last night? I only caught part of it and the fact that global warming affects some parts of the Cuban reef, but it has a way of fixing itself?

[Danzig]

(Really?! I would have thought our planet could support a lot more people than it currently does. Irresponsible behaviour of the population...that I can buy!)

You might want to check out what is happening in south Texas where large cities/counties are buying up water rights from other counties from older people who are money hungry not realizing they will not be able to pump there own water in the future. Also where some pay a $100 more a month on water than electricity.
What do you expect people to eat in the next 20 years, our oceans are running out of food. Continue to add to our population and you continue to add to our shortage of food, pollution and waste. Hard to believe but you will see a shortage in beef in the next few years.

Cars are probably 1% of the problem. What about heat and air conditioning and all the appliances that run off of electricity... People will never give these luxuries up. Corporations are huge polluters and they de regulate things like the EPA which are supposed to protect the environment. Theres a start for you. Also just an interesting fact: there are now officially 7 billion peoples in the world. My way of making sure i do my part is recycling. I recycle everything from water bottles to the cardboard leftover after you use all the toilet paper to batteries. I throw anything into recycling i can, even if im not sure they actually recycle it its worth the try and its free. Since i started a year ago my house produces 50% less trash, and if u pay for trash removal like lots of towns its a good way to save money and do a good thing at the same time. I do however think humanity is doomed and were passed the point of restoring the planet to its natural state, even if we ceased all use of fossil fuels now and reverted back to the dark ages. Scientists know this which is why they are trying to get the $&@! Off this planet lol. Anyways put a smile on and hope for the best.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[billsreef]

Was diving on a reef off Key Largo this weekend. I've dove this reef in the past...about 20 years ago. 20 years ago there was lots of healthy Elkhorn coral...this past Saturday, almost all the Elkhorn was dead. Found some smallish colonies on one section of reef...maybe a 20 sq foot patch of reef with isolated colonies on it, and baseball sized patch of recovering growth in what was otherwise a vast wasteland of dead Elkhorn skeletons over the rest of the reef. Quite an amazing difference in all of 20 years :(

[alton]

Just asking but didn't Florida have a bad freeze a while back that froze fish and coral? Everytime I see Florida on TV (mostly fishing shows) I see boats on top of boats and not one sail on either one of them.

[Paul B]

What was the name of the reef off Key Largo?

Bill, I was out in your neck of the woods last Saturday
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/IMG_1614.jpg

[power boat jim]

Was diving on a reef off Key Largo this weekend. I've dove this reef in the past...about 20 years ago. 20 years ago there was lots of healthy Elkhorn coral...this past Saturday, almost all the Elkhorn was dead. Found some smallish colonies on one section of reef...maybe a 20 sq foot patch of reef with isolated colonies on it, and baseball sized patch of recovering growth in what was otherwise a vast wasteland of dead Elkhorn skeletons over the rest of the reef. Quite an amazing difference in all of 20 years :(

What has changed in the 20 years? Is it a water quality issue or a temp issue. You should have taken water samples so you could post the parameters just like for any other reef related problem.

[ousnakebyte]

It's not just Florida but the majority of the Caribbean that now looks that way. What's changed in the past 20-30 years? You can point to the mass explosion in the human population growth - and that brings about the massive coastal developments, more pollution, sedimentation, runoff, overfishing - and yes, increase in sea surface temperatures. Basically, things that everyone in this thread has already discussed.

The Caribbean and tropical western Atlantic is essentially a ring of development from Florida/Bahamas down to Brazil. Unfortunately, there is a direct negative correlation between the distance a coral reef is to human disturbance and overall reef health - as measured in total coral coverage, fish size/density, etc.

Compounding this is the largest epizootic ever known - the loss of the Diadema urchins that started in Panama in 1983, where the pathogen rode the currents. The loss of this herbivore was quite possibly the last stability pin that was pulled from Caribbean reefs leading to their collapse - though they were probably already tinkering on the edge collapse as fully-functioning ecosystems.

Taking a water sample now likely won't do much good. Elkhorn and Staghorn corals have collapsed from a combination of stressors, fueled by coral bleaching and the resulting diseases that ravage corals after a bleaching event.

In addition, Florida likely seems particularly hit b/c its populations of Elkhorn and Staghorn seem to have reproduced primarily through asexual breakage rather than through sexual reproduction. This has left that population genetically depauperate and, thus, less resistant to disease.

Basically, in my lifetime, Caribbean and western Atlantic reefs have shifted from primarily coral dominated ecosystems to algal reefs, and today we are now starting to see the collapse of that 3-dimmensional structure that the corals have built up since the last ice age. This phase shift is the new face of Caribbean reefs and one that will not change in our lifetime. I simply cringe when I hear new divers coming up from a dive and saying how great the reef looks - with a few corals here and there, a beach-ball size elkhorn colony over there, and vast fields of dictyota and microdictyon algaes everywhere. This is the shifting baseline we must prevent. Basically... it shouldn't look like this.

It is also my feeling that if reefs only had to cope with increasing sea surface temperatures, they would have a better fighting chance. But with a combination punch of 4, 5, 6, 7 and more stressors piling on them all at once, it's just simply too much to overcome. Will every species of coral go extinct? Likely not. But, as others have mentioned already, the face of reefs in the future will change drastically. Heck... it's already here.

7 billion people... and there are tv shows that glorify 8 and more plus children per family............

Cheers
Mike

[Danzig]

"7 billion people... and there are tv shows that glorify 8 and more plus children per family............" Yah like that show about that family with like 22 kids and counting.. all their names start with the letter "J" as if the number of kids they have wasn't already enough to have a reason to call them freaks. There should be a limit on procreation IMO.

[billsreef]

What was the name of the reef off Key Largo?

Elbow reef. It's right next to that light "tower" that those two divers were stranded on several years ago...the ones they made the movie about.

Bill, I was out in your neck of the woods last Saturday


Sure looks like my old stomping grounds :D

What has changed in the 20 years? Is it a water quality issue or a temp issue. You should have taken water samples so you could post the parameters just like for any other reef related problem.

It's not just Florida but the majority of the Caribbean that now looks that way. What's changed in the past 20-30 years? You can point to the mass explosion in the human population growth - and that brings about the massive coastal developments, more pollution, sedimentation, runoff, overfishing - and yes, increase in sea surface temperatures. Basically, things that everyone in this thread has already discussed.

Mike nailed it, along with the rest of his post. The water parameters can be found in papers by a number of researchers by anyone that really wants to dig in the scientific literature. I was there working with a dive class, not doing research, so wasn't conducting samples of my own ;) I'll admit I don't remember the water temps on my first visit to this reef, but Saturdays water temp was 78F at 40'.

[power boat jim]

I posted the water parameter statement kinda tounge in cheek since thats how we fix all reef problems here. Although I did like snakebites post. There was info in there I have not come across before. I imagine its painfull to watch firsthand the decline of this reef on a yearly basis.

[ousnakebyte]

I posted the water parameter statement kinda tounge in cheek since thats how we fix all reef problems here. Although I did like snakebites post. There was info in there I have not come across before.

My bad... I'll turn up the sensor on my sarcasm detector... :spin1:

[billsreef]

I posted the water parameter statement kinda tounge in cheek since thats how we fix all reef problems here. Although I did like snakebites post. There was info in there I have not come across before. I imagine its painfull to watch firsthand the decline of this reef on a yearly basis.

My bad... I'll turn up the sensor on my sarcasm detector... :spin1:

x2 :D

It would be great to able to fix those water quality parameters on the reef as easily as we can our tanks. BTW, one of the issues that has been hitting the Elkhorn hard is "white pox" disease. Which as been found to be caused by a bacteria from the human gut...aka the sewage which makes it way into our oceans :( Just another one of those factors hitting the corals on top the rising ocean temps and ocean acidification.

[power boat jim]

x2 :D

It would be great to able to fix those water quality parameters on the reef as easily as we can our tanks. BTW, one of the issues that has been hitting the Elkhorn hard is "white pox" disease. Which as been found to be caused by a bacteria from the human gut...aka the sewage which makes it way into our oceans :( Just another one of those factors hitting the corals on top the rising ocean temps and ocean acidification.

It seems that with all the controls in place around the keys, (no anchoring touching etc..) do they not require complete treatment of wastewater in that area? You would think if we could eliminate some of the bad factors that are under our control we could give the reef a fighting chance.

They are looking at making us disinfect wastwater that gets dumped into the Chicago Sanitary Ship Canal. Seems a strange double standard when you take into account the differences of whats at stake in these two bodies of water.

[billsreef]

There are lots of old existing cesspools in the keys, from before the days of more modern requirements and concerns. Add in the growing population of South Florida, and it just keeps piling up despite efforts to minimize impacts.