Cyano: everybody gets it: how to get rid of it safely [Archive]

Sk8r

11/15/2011, 11:40 AM

Understand, without cyanobacteria, Earth would be a dead planet.
It gave us oxygen after the Permian Extinction, before there were dinosaurs.
It travels in the air. It's the ancestor of the chloroplasts (photosynthesizing element) in every green plant on Earth.
So don't curse it.

But when it decides to help out in your tank, you'll find a red or brown film (depends on your lights) staining your sand---and growing to a half-inch thick blanket over everything, distinguished by little bubbles of oxygen. THAT's a problem.

Solving the problem is easy: and this process imitates a natural process on the reef, when storm rolls over an area. Draw the room curtains and turn out your tank lights for 3 days. If using metal halide, bring up actinic on the 4th day, regular lighting on the 5th. And WHILE your lights are out, SKIM. A good skimmer really helps. Be sure it's 'tuned' to work its best. This process will not hurt corals or fish! You may have to do this once monthly for several months running---like about 3 months. But it WILL get it. Do not do it more than once a month. And yes, your fish will appreciate being fed on schedule: they'll sleep mostly, but will wake up to eat.

Cyano is midway between a plant and an algae: it has characteristics of both: some kinds even crawl...a bit. It won't exit the tank at night and do in the poodle. It also is amazingly adaptable: you'll hear advice about turkey basters (actually a good idea if it's very, very thick: the more you can suck out, the better: but suck, don't blow!) And about nitrates and phosphates and all sorts of things---but that's actually not true, when it comes to ridding your tank of cyano, since all it REALLY has to have is light, water, and carbon. Carbon is an element present in everything alive, so there's no way you're going to rob it of nutrients just by tossing out nitrate and phosphate, desirable as that is to do. All we can do that it doesn't like is to turn out the lights.

Will it come back? Just about inevitably. It loves odd-spectrum light, so slanty sunlight reaching your tank from a window or bulbs in your light-kit that are expired or expiring are both situations it loves. Check your bulbs, see where the sun-track from that side window is for the season, but if it does come back, just do the lights-out thing and you'll see it less and less often.

disc1

11/15/2011, 12:10 PM

Good stuff Sk8r. They are truly amazing organisms.

Cyanobacteria are generally believed to be one of the first life forms to evolve on earth. They have been around for 3.5 Billion (with a B) years. They pretty much had the planet to themselves for almost half of the history of the earth. They have survived all of the natural disasters that wiped out so many other species.

Cyanobacteria have evolved through every type of environment conceivable. They can live under aerobic or anaerobic conditions. Given light they can make their own oxygen. Without light they can live on organic carbon like any other bacterium. Under anaerobic conditions, they have any number of final electron acceptors to use in respiration. They can even reduce elemental sulfur to do their respiration. They can fix their own nitrogen if they need to, making the nitrate that they need directly from nitrogen gas. They can obtain phosphate from organic sources when there is none in the water.

Cyanobateria are found in every ecosystem you can imagine. There are species that live in ice, in hot sulfur springs, freshwater, saltwater, dry earth, mud, or any other thing you throw at them. After three and a half billion years of survival, you pick up on a few tricks.

With all of that said, it is a wonder to me that we are able to grow anything other than cyanobacteria.

Sk8r

11/15/2011, 12:36 PM

Lol. And---nothing we keep eats it. I've seen the little Hector's goby nibble at it, but it's not really a good food source.
A real good thing it responds to such a simple fix, or we'd have nothing but it.

Sytje1234

11/15/2011, 01:27 PM

Thanks Sk8R....muchly appreciated for your write up. For us new people..this right here brings it home right to the punch of the Cyano problems people worry about. What a great write up...Thank you! Very well done.:fish2:

Hextall

11/15/2011, 01:33 PM

What are the consequences for not dealing with it as you suggest (mainly the 3 days lights out method)? Is this just an aesthetic problem, or are our reefs really in danger of being harmed?

Is there a risk to our reefs if we just do the base minimum addressing it (i.e. change bulbs and physically remove large mats of it)?

Sk8r

11/15/2011, 02:04 PM

Well, in general a light case does no harm whatsoever.
Even if it's half an inch thick and draping everything in the tank in sheets of bubbly russet slime it doesn't hurt the corals or the fishes physically---people believe their tanks are destroyed and their corals are dissolving when they see this turn up, but actually nothing at all is harmed. The harmful bit is that it shuts out light for the corals, when it completely shrouds them, and the corals are damaged by want of light, NOT by the cyano, which is remarkably benign, otherwise.
You usually see it go away by morning, then reappear by afternoon. Except the really thick sheets, which just look as if someone had thrown dark red pancake batter atop all your rocks and corals. It's probably pretty disgusting to the fish, too, since nothing will even try to eat it. The little goby I named couldn't begin to clean it up, since the fish is only an inch long at maturity, so it would take more fish than you have tank space to make a dent in it. It grows thicker by the day....really obnoxious looking.

The danger in it: it is subject to mass dieoff. The thicker you let it get, the more biomass hits the system when it dies back. So it can affect your sandbed/rock with overload. This is one serious danger in products that remove it chemically: they dose your tank with antibiotic, a bacteria-killer, which kills it instantly: and they claim it doesn't (much) affect your sandbed and rock. Much. But this huge biomass is dead, perhaps some of your beneficial bacteria are dead, too---throw them on the funeral pyre---and say you don't have the world's best skimmer: IT can't keep up with the load, and things go south from there. I used the chemical cure---once. It trashed my copepods, cost me megabucks feeding my mandarin with bought-pods, and generally created a chemical instability in my tank that annoyed me for the next 6 months. And I have a pretty good skimmer.
Some poor novice with no skimmer, or a very underpowered one---his tank can crash. And as a helper in the novice forum, I've had to advise people in the middle of such disasters, so, yes, it happens.

What I advise, and the safest route, is the one I outline above. No muss, no fuss, no drama, just a few months remembering to do it, and it'll not trouble you again for months. You'll see it now and again, in certain seasons of the year---same fix; gradually your tank matures, and you don't have the problem. If you tossed in that antibiotic fix for it every time it came back---well, it wouldn't be imho a good thing.

IF you want the technicals on the antibiotic: bacteria come in two varieties. There's gram-negative and gram-positive. Your general tank bacteria are one variety and cyano is the other. A broad spectrum antibiotic is one that kills both gram-negative bacteria, and gram-positive, at once. That would kill your tank, no question. The one the chemical fix uses is the one that kills the type cyano is, and doesn't touch the other kind. But by the reaction my tank had, I'm not sure the bacteria in a good tank ARE all the other sort. And it certainly did a number on the micro-life, which helps keep a tank clear of algae, and other benefits.

The lights-out method is imho the safest, the most long-term effective without doing collateral damage, and so that's my answer.

Hextall

11/15/2011, 02:59 PM

Some poor novice with no skimmer,

Oh... Hi.

gradually your tank matures, and you don't have the problem.

So this is something that once a tank ages, won't be a problem if treated with the lights out method? So there is a [prepare yourself for the horror of a bad pun] light at the end of the tunnel to cyano battling?

With respect to the remedy, you talk about closing the curtains. where I have my tank, we have some skylights with shades... do translucent shades block enough light to cause a condition to make cyano unhappy?

How blocked does the sunlight coming into the room need to be?

If I don't have a skimmer, is there anything I can do during the 3 days of lights out, short of buying a skimmer?
And this thread is perfectly timed, at least for me, I've been dealing with cyano for about 3-4 weeks trying to research remedies. thank you for this.

Sk8r

11/15/2011, 03:24 PM

Ah, I see your situation. Sounds like a beautiful room. And the lack of a skimmer is a big problem. I can foresee a problem from those skylights if you don't take some measures, because that's a situation this stuff is going to love.
Can you possibly do a HOB skimmer like a Remora, even temporarily? That would help.
I'm torn between the need to skim and wondering how much of it you dare kill off at once...because I don't know how much you have in your tank. Can you use your phone to provide a photo of your situation? Shrouding the tank in sheet can block the light and kill it. But skimming is how the die-off protein gets out of your tank. Let's see how bad it is before we make a recommendation.

Hextall

11/15/2011, 03:36 PM

I'll take a picture tonight.... the latest one I have is two weeks old (click for link (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7Ke1rUkcbkqsrWrJ5-rRTms-KHmaKLoZmMdKh1JXblc?feat=directlink)). You can see some of the bubbles and cyano on the rocks, however there's some relatively thicker mats now on the sand (no where near a 1/2 inch though) that I've been removing via a turkey baster every once in a while.

It's a 29g biocube, so I'm not sure what hang on back skimmer options are available as I am trying to grow cheato in the available back chamber (#2) where I could install a skimmer. Never thought about the hang on back ones though. But that's another topic.

Sk8r

11/15/2011, 03:51 PM

That's not bad. I look forward to tonight's pic.
What I'm leaning to is a week of removing the stuff by turkey baster, not blowing it off, but actually getting shreds of it out of the tank, which does much the same thing as a skimmer; plus maybe some mechanical filtration to catch any escaping bits; then shrouding the tank in tented sheeting during the day, taking it off in the evening (with lights off) and doing that for a few days, once a month. It is a question of age, mostly. The older your tank, ime, the less problem. You might also try a nassarius snail or two: they live under the sand and help keep it in good condition: I don't know if too much sandbed load helps promote this stuff, but having a nicely policed sandbed is a good thing on general principles.

That is a very pretty tank, btw.

snorvich

11/15/2011, 05:12 PM

If you are diligent, siphoning it off does help. Eventually. Skimmers are very desirable in our tanks however; I would never run a tank without one.

disc1

11/15/2011, 05:32 PM

IF you want the technicals on the antibiotic: bacteria come in two varieties. There's gram-negative and gram-positive. Your general tank bacteria are one variety and cyano is the other. A broad spectrum antibiotic is one that kills both gram-negative bacteria, and gram-positive, at once. That would kill your tank, no question. The one the chemical fix uses is the one that kills the type cyano is, and doesn't touch the other kind. But by the reaction my tank had, I'm not sure the bacteria in a good tank ARE all the other sort. And it certainly did a number on the micro-life, which helps keep a tank clear of algae, and other benefits.

A technical note for ya Sk8r.

There are a number of both gram positive and gram negative bacteria in your tank. For the most part, you would find gram negative bacteria. These tend to be the older genera evolution-wise. Gram positive bacteria have evolved a thicker more durable cell membrane and a large part of that was the move out of the sea.

Cyanobacteria do not retain crystal violet in a Gram stain and so are technically gram negative bacteria. But only in the sense that they are not Gram positive. The actual taxonomy of cyanobacteria is under much debate and species of "blue-green algae" can be found scattered out all over the place. That goes back to the fact that they are the ancestors of nearly every living thing on Earth and that 2 billion years of head start they got on evolution.

Some more of why I think they are so fascinating...

A quote from the wikipedia article on cyanobacteria. (emphasis mine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria

Cyanobacteria include unicellular and colonial species. Colonies may form filaments, sheets or even hollow balls. Some filamentous colonies show the ability to differentiate into several different cell types: vegetative cells, the normal, photosynthetic cells that are formed under favorable growing conditions; akinetes, the climate-resistant spores that may form when environmental conditions become harsh; and thick-walled heterocysts, which contain the enzyme nitrogenase, vital for nitrogen fixation. Heterocysts may also form under the appropriate environmental conditions (anoxic) when fixed nitrogen is scarce. Heterocyst-forming species are specialized for nitrogen fixation and are able to fix nitrogen gas into ammonia (NH3), nitrites (NO−
2) or nitrates (NO−
3) which can be absorbed by plants and converted to protein and nucleic acids (atmospheric nitrogen is not bioavailable to plants).

If you don't see the evolutionary significance of the line that I made bold, then please go read it again until you do. Essentially what it is saying is that some of the filamentous cyanobacteria can have more than one cell type in the colony. Some of the cells are handling photosynthesis while other cells are handling nitrogen fixing. That is one of the very first steps towards becoming a multicellular organism.

disc1

11/15/2011, 05:46 PM

Even more fascinating, and another good reason not to just kill them all with antibiotics.

From Chapter 2 "The Control of Trace Metals in Seawater" in Volume 6 of "The Oceans and Marine Geochemistry": KW Bruland, MC Lohan 6.02.5.1

(emphasis mine)
Moffett and Brand (1996) have shown that cyanobacteria
when stressed with slightly elevated [Cu2+] can
produce a ligand with a similar conditional
stability constant. It appears that, somehow, the
phytoplankton of the open ocean, particularly
the prokaryotic phytoplankton, are controlling the
external concentration of free copper by producing
a strong copper-binding ligand that reduces the
[Cu2+] to levels that are no longer toxic.

There are a number of other great examples of cyanobacteria taking control of water quality. They are even used by man for those purposes sometimes.

I don't think it is really advisable, or even possible to completely eliminate them from an aquarium. We can only make conditions not so favorable for their rapid multiplication and keep them in balance. We only need to stop them becoming colonial and making strings and sheets and balls. The individual cells that you don't see, as well as that stubborn little pocket of cyano in the sump may actually be doing your tank a considerable amount of good.

Sk8r

11/15/2011, 05:47 PM

Really interesting, Disc1. I searched this stuff some time ago to try to figure it, and I was just amazed by what a strange creature it is.
It considerably pre-dates the dinosaurs. And one has the extraneous thought of what really early planetary life might be, where all the ecosystems are wide open, but the geological pressures are completely wild and frequent: a lot of extremophiles, perhaps with pretty scary adaptive capacities. And when whatever blitzed the Permian got others, it left us with the ones that don't like oxygen, and this one that produces it; and what we've got left---an oxygen atmosphere---says pretty well who won. That little line you highlighted is enough to have you thinking about it, for sure. I confess, I actually love this stuff. It's so weird.

cloak

11/15/2011, 06:09 PM

What if you cycled a tank with live rock and you didn't have a cynobacteria or a hair algae outbreak? I did have cynobacteria in my old 60 gallon reef tank at the start, but I didn't have either one in the 20 gallon tank I have now. How did I dodge that? Don't tell me it was luck... ;)

Hextall

11/15/2011, 07:37 PM

Can you use your phone to provide a photo of your situation?

Ok, here's some photos that I took tonight. Note, that I changed my PC white bulb on Sunday, and it has helped a bit. the cyano was a bit thicker before Sunday. But there are a couple of spots it's relatively dense.

Under the frogspawn and under the rock on teh front right are some relatively dense patches.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-O4jrYgzGfw0/TsMNn8bV9dI/AAAAAAAAAqA/zzwx2XEYnD0/s400/DSC_0070.JPG

Here's a picture of a patch in the back... I don't usually siphon this area out much as it's a bit hard to get to. I've often times watched the tailspot blenny poo here... not sure if that's related.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-0NL0DhWoFbM/TsMNKOYIMnI/AAAAAAAAAp4/WcNbMxeciFQ/s400/DSC_0065.JPG

Here's that small patch on the sand and rock in the front right:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-TEsXzKtt46I/TsMOWGltZQI/AAAAAAAAAqM/NwFzGbedWtA/s400/DSC_0073.JPG

Here's the full photo album I took tonight of cyano:
Cyano Photo Album (https://picasaweb.google.com/rurymj/Cyano11152011?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCIDum-b-hbOIhQE&feat=directlink)

I'm sure there's people out there with way worse problems with it that are laughing at my "problem". I've been siphoning out with a turkey baster some big patches, and during water changes use a gravel vacuum on it (although it usually doesn't get removed, it gets broken up enough for me to then use the turkey baster on the bigger loose packages).

I think there's a decent population of people running nano tanks without skimmers, however if one is required to have the highest chance of battling it, I'll look into it over running a refugium with cheato. I'm not a fan of any external equipment (nor am I sure a hang on back will actually fit between the tank and the wall).

Thanks for any suggestions/tips (and thanks for the kind words about the tank Sk8r).

Sk8r

11/16/2011, 10:21 AM

Oh, that's not too bad at all...(compared to what I've seen: the half inch thick stuff draping every surface.) Siphon it off first for a week. Get a nassarius snail or two to help clean. A pearly jawfish or yellow watchman would be a nice addition, and would help with the sandbed. Vacuuming anything but the extreme surface is dangerous: it can cause more trouble, including tank crash. But fish and snails work little patches at a time. Do the lights-out drape once a month, and see if you can get some sand cleaners of your choice (snails and fish) You'll beat this. Keep me posted on this. It's a pretty tank, and you've got an interesting situation with those skylights. But I beat it, in a glass-walled room, so it can be done: we just nurse this tank toward maturity, get some sand cleaners, and I think it'll be fine.

Allmost

11/16/2011, 10:31 AM

question,

according to disc1, cyano can live with, or without light.

so how is removing light for 3 days going to help ? it will just change the type/property of cyano, right ?

[please dont get me wrong, not saying it wont work :) I have been using this method to control mainly hair algae in my FOWLR tanks. no lights for 3 days, with sides of tank covered in dark, and on 4th day I do a huge 40% water change as everything is dead and released its nutrition]

just wondering if there is more on it :)

Kasasah7

11/22/2011, 02:25 PM

So, I followed what you said here Sk8r and the only thing that is having trouble recovering is my pulsing xenia. The bacteria was exactly the same after the 5th day as it was before i started and i followed this exactly.

Sk8r

11/22/2011, 02:45 PM

Sorry, missed that query on dark: that's why it may take several months of once-a-month attack.

Kasasah, sorry to hear it's impacting the xenia. It divides easily, so you might want to put a small frag of it into a lighted tank for safekeeping the next time you do this: repeated hits may hurt it worse. Xenia's easy to get to attach: just lay it on the sand and lay a light bit of dead coral atop it for 12 hours: by morning it'll have attached, if its conditions are otherwise good.

doctorgori

11/22/2011, 02:59 PM

nice thread....I've never tried the lights out method, I see a lil showing up now...hmmm

for minor out breaks, changing the circulation pattern in the tanks does seem to help my tanks, if only temporarily anyway... but more often than not I do nothing and it seems to go away eventually,

JCareyETexas

11/22/2011, 04:06 PM

In others experiences, does the cyano appear to turn black in color when it is on the retreat? Particularly after the lights have been off?

Sk8r

11/22/2011, 04:44 PM

Mockmo

11/22/2011, 04:44 PM

ive been haing a cno problem for the past couple weeks and diatoms aswell ill syphon out what i can and it will eventually come back, as sson as i read this i cut the lights and covered the tank with a thick blanket hopefully it works!

Do you think it could kill of the diatoms too?

<a href="http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/?action=view&current=IMG_0080.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/IMG_0080.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/?action=view&current=IMG_0083.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/IMG_0083.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/?action=view&current=faa906e2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/faa906e2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Meshmez

11/22/2011, 05:06 PM

lordofthereef

11/22/2011, 05:29 PM

So I gave this a try three days ago. Admittedly I was a little nervous as I have only sps for corals and a clam in the tank (perhaps I didn't need to be nervrous, but I was). Tank looks fantastic today. Not a spot of the brown stuff in sight. I didn't have a major outbreak, but there was enough of it to take away from the beauty of the tank. I think I may just add this to my monthly tank maintenance regimen.

lordofthereef

11/22/2011, 05:31 PM

Make sure that doesnt cause the tank to overheat... and im not sure what kind of impact that blanket will have on the oxygen transfer into your water...

I'd be MOST worried about oxygenation with that situation. We are dropping the photosynthesis off to ZERO here so we are not even producing any O2 byproduct.

Mockmo

11/22/2011, 05:53 PM

how else am i suppose to cover it? i dont have a canopy or anything and if i dont cover the top, the light from the room will just enter.

Sk8r

11/22/2011, 06:31 PM

Use some tape and sticks to hold some light sheeting in place, like a tent. You can also thumbtack sheeting to the wall---depending on your wall. And the spouse. If you have skylights the open top is a problem; if not, just close your blinds or otherwise limit the light. Pitch black is not a requirement. Likewise---you have to turn your lights out and that should limit any heating.

Mockmo

11/22/2011, 06:51 PM

well i took off the wrap and taped it up kinda like a tent, i plan on taking off the covers over night when no lights are on just to insure no problems with oxygenation. Sound better?

<a href="http://s82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/?action=view&current=02b65580.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/skyline8900/02b65580.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

JCareyETexas

11/22/2011, 07:13 PM

I'm suspicious about any 'black' algae involving the sandbed, because if you have a black pocket in the sandbed that can be lethal hydrogen sulphide, the rotten eggs smell---and very bad for a tank. If you do have a problematic sandbed situation don't try to clean it: let nature---get a couple of true nassarius or one fighting conch per 50 gallons, and let them go to work. They burrow and get to things safely.

I was referring to small mats of cyano that appear to turn black and stringy after the lights have been off. Once lights have been on again some of the black stringy stuff turns back to red.

Sk8r

11/22/2011, 07:44 PM

Ah. Ok, that'll go away: use a turkey baster to suck those bits out and discard: you're exporting crud just as your skimmer does, and that is helpful.

streak

11/22/2011, 08:37 PM

I really wish I had took a picture when I had my out break.. I knew it was comming just did not know when. It took over the whole sand bed about 1/4" deep I syphoned off what i could and in my cheapness I didnt have a good skimmer. Untill I read up on here about cyno. The "lights out" tatic worked only i used it differently with me 7 months in i had some corals still no fish at all. I did 3 days off 2 days regualr and 3 days off.. and week regular only after getting myself a nice skimmer. and it worked. It only comes back every once in awhile the 2 nassus snails i think really help keep the sandbed stired up enough to keep it from setting in.

peterhong

11/22/2011, 11:58 PM

wow, this is happening to my tank right now. Let me turn off my lights for 3 days too.

StephLionfish

11/23/2011, 01:05 AM

Dang, I need a skimmer! I'm saving for a skimmer for my 20g reef... I've been doing perfectly w/o one... but the cyano is everywhere! I can peal it off the front of the glass.

BIG_KAHUNA

11/23/2011, 07:32 AM

ok going lights off today for the second time in two months. The cyano is realy getting to me. A week ago I just couldn't take it, the cyano was rooted so deep in the sand bed (which is actually shallow) but still from the glass you could see it all the way through to the bottom of the sand bed. I needed to remove a hippo tang that was out growing the tank and couldnt catch her so we tore the whole tank down, got her out, an I pulled all the sand out cleaning it as best as I could in a hour. Put it all back together then BAM right back (not so intense though). So lights out we go. I have a Aqua C remora pro w/ rio 1400 HOB in the sump. pulls a deep green but watery skim. Think my 57g is under skimmed? mixed reef with only a mandarin and a hawk fish right now. (and CUC of course!)

Sk8r

11/23/2011, 10:53 AM

A skimmer is best if rated for 2x the tank you have. I run an Aqua C EV120 on my 54 gallon.

Using a turkey baster to suck out the grab-able stuff in advance will help make up for the lack of power in the skimmer.

KRBNSOL

11/23/2011, 02:02 PM

Going dark this weekend as well. Thanks for all the info SK8R. I've got some cyno, but having trouble w/the diatoms. :angryfire:

bdaniel5278

11/23/2011, 04:52 PM

im also going to try this, ive been fighting cyano for about a month now, so i went lights out today, we will see how it goes. my last water change i was pulling up sheets of cyano off my sand bed, im so tired of this stuff.

lordofthereef

11/23/2011, 04:55 PM

how else am i suppose to cover it? i dont have a canopy or anything and if i dont cover the top, the light from the room will just enter.

I think you are being a bit too paranoid about the amount of light your tank will get. I left mine lights off (but still used the room so it wasn't pitch black 24/7) and it worked wonderfully.

jgsteven

11/23/2011, 08:13 PM

I think there's a decent population of people running nano tanks without skimmers, however if one is required to have the highest chance of battling it, I'll look into it over running a refugium with cheato. I'm not a fan of any external equipment (nor am I sure a hang on back will actually fit between the tank and the wall).

I have the CPR SR-3 in my biocube chamber 2. Its fits nicely with no external protrusion. I previously grew chato, but I could never get it to grow like a 'real' refugium and I think I added more nutrient than I exported.

I have zero cyano in the biocube, although my other 29G (first without a skimmer, then with a cheap skimmer) has been battling cyano problems from the start (that I am just now getting under control)

You might also look at increasing flow. The biocube's stock flow is a little week. I added the Korellia 900 and it is much nicer flow-wise. My other 29G with Cyano problems smiliar to your pre-skimmer and Korellia is also much better now with a skimmer and more flow (I haven't tried the 3-day blackout thing yet, but might...)

biecacka

11/23/2011, 08:24 PM

will this help with diatoms too? that is an interesting question as i think i am having a slight outbreak of cyano and diatoms too
corey

lordofthereef

11/23/2011, 08:41 PM

I have the CPR SR-3 in my biocube chamber 2. Its fits nicely with no external protrusion. I previously grew chato, but I could never get it to grow like a 'real' refugium and I think I added more nutrient than I exported.

I run the same thing. In generally, I am happy with it, but it is pretty loud. Certainly the loudest thing in the tank, by far. Any comments?

buckster

11/23/2011, 08:51 PM

IMO the best way to get rid of Cyanobacteria is to reduce organics through protein skimming and activated carbon. Water changes also help to reduce organics and should be done as well. Protein skimming by far will make the biggest difference over time. A properly running skimmer producing thick skimate that is cleaned on a daily basis will reduce organics over the course of a few weeks to a month which will naturally limit the growth of the cyano.

natesreef

11/23/2011, 09:05 PM

I will be trying this tactic next week. Gonna try and siphon out as much as possible the 3 days lights out.

doctorgori

11/24/2011, 06:40 AM

Sk8R ...this isn't a complaint per se, but in my short stint here this is like the 4th or 5th excellent thread you've posted with invaluable advice.... yet my fear is its gonna get buried eventually as time passes ....
anyway you could blog or sticky this particular one also?

Todd_Sails

11/24/2011, 07:09 AM

I had cyano/diatoms in my DT.

I've done the lights less, not out, method. I also vacuumed my CC gravel several times with a 5-15 gallon WC. It has worked well, but it will build up again real quick.

I went with a lights on in the morn, and at night, drastically reducing the total hours for now.

As far as vacuuming my CC, I only have a dusting to about 1-1/2 inch depending on the poser heads, etc.

Changing the flow to direct more along the bottom also seems to help.

It's funny, some rocks seem to get it, while others stay clean?

I"ve got many guests today for T-day feasting on my Cajum Deep Fried Turkey.
NOne of them are reef keepers, but I still want my DT to look good!

Nice thread, thanks.

Paul B

11/24/2011, 08:02 AM

Sk8r, nice thread.
gradually your tank matures, and you don't have the problem

Well, not really. I still have a few spots of it but they have been there for years and no problem. There have been times in the past where my tank was covered with the stuff. I mean really covered. :eek:
I have not had a problem with it in a decade or two but I can see where it can be a problem.
I always used "Chemi Clean" but as sk8r said, I could have covered the tank, (or painted the glass black) :lmao:
Chemi Clean is not an antibiotic but an oxidizer and I used to occasionally use it just for the heck of it.
But cutting out the light for a few days will also work. The only problem is that the organics that originally caused it are still in there. :worried2:
I know everyone will jump on me and say they don't like to use chemicals but before you say that, remember what artificial sea water is made out of. :rolleyes:

Happy thanksgiving and before you use that turkey baster on your turkey, wash the turkey drippings out of it. :wavehand:

biecacka

11/24/2011, 06:39 PM

hey sk8r how do i want my skimmer running. a wet skim mate or not so wet?
corey

Sk8r

11/25/2011, 04:17 PM

Wet: get it to suck up everything it can. Re whether Chemiclean is erythromycin or something else: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1344187

WetShepherd

11/25/2011, 05:48 PM

I gave it a shot this week to try to nip my first outbreak in the bud - I had just 3 or 4 light patches on my sand. My sand hasn't looked this good since I put it in ;)

The fish didn't eat so well though - mostly they just slept. Strangely, my most reclusive fish, a royal gramma, was the only one to wake up for feedings - he's been a lot more assertive since the lights have been back on too - so I'm putting that in the plus column as well.

Thanks again Sk8r ;)

The Gonk

11/25/2011, 10:51 PM

Two questions:

1. The skimmer is for dealing with the hoped-for cyano die off, correct? Or does the skimmer itself help prevent a breakout?

2. Since the cyano is so adaptable, does nutrient export via macro-algae in the refugium do any good against it?

WetShepherd

11/25/2011, 10:57 PM

1. Both - you don't want excess nutrients in there that can feed your algae and the skimmer helps remove the bigger bits.

2. Anything that helps remove the nutrients will help in general yes - but as you noted it's very adaptable so it's not a perfect solution. All we can do is keep our tanks as healthy as possible - if we still get it then the method Sk8r detailed is our best recourse ;)

twitchzoo

11/26/2011, 08:08 AM

Thanks sk8r, I've been dealing with cyano for the past few days and have been wondering what to do about it. I will keep my lights off for a few days and I guess I need to go ahead and get new ones too. I agree, this needs to be a sticky!

bdaniel5278

11/26/2011, 08:56 AM

well i finished the third day of my lights out, and its looking like all my cyano has died, it died and peeled off the rocks and sand looks much cleaner, will be running lights today to see how fast it decides to show up again. The lights out method has been the best working for me so far

rick12

11/26/2011, 09:07 AM

sk8r my cyno is green, bright green, is this unusual?

Sk8r

11/26/2011, 10:30 AM

The green stuff I think is a regular algae. COuld even be turf algae, which can be a kind of red spiky growth or blackish green. It's more responsive to light and a lights-out could affect it, but it's more likely to respond somewhat to a reduction in phosphate. I've got turf in my fuge, and down there it just seems to be part of the system. I do note it grows directly under the light, so a persistent lights-out once a month might put a dent in it growing where you don't want it. If a true green, also possible, it's probably not turf but more a real algae...I don't know the name of it. But in planning a treatment it's useful to note whether it's growing in shade or brightest part of the tank. If in shade, it's chemically sustained; if in bright light, light deprivation will damage it, and cyclical light deprivation may do it in.

The Punisher

11/26/2011, 10:33 AM

I'm currently on day 2 of lights out and I can't wait to turn them back on and see what difference it made. I'll be sure to report my findings here. Thanks Sk8r. :thumbsup:

redddogg69

11/26/2011, 10:59 AM

Admittedly I have not read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been suggested. I recently got rid of a bad cyano outbreak in my 42g cube (65g total volume) by dosing hydrogen peroxide 5ml every three days for a week and it went right away and hasn't shown back up for over 3 weeks now. It did not affect either of my nems, shrimp, fish or corals.

Sk8r

11/26/2011, 12:39 PM

Mockmo

11/26/2011, 12:46 PM

so i my 3 days are up and i can say all of the cyno and diatoms where gone except for 1 little spot, it looked good to finally see the tank with lights on. The only bad thing is i found my coral banded shrimp eating one of my maroon clowns.

redddogg69

11/26/2011, 12:50 PM

Todd_Sails

11/26/2011, 12:56 PM

I just decreased the lights, for a few days, vacuumed some, it really does the trick.

But my room lights, and passive (not direct) light from the windows are still there.

Sk8r

11/26/2011, 12:57 PM

Thank you, Redddog; and, Mockmo, good about the results, but :( about your clown. I hate to tell you, but coral-bandeds are fish-killers and predators, and can be active in the dark. I think I should add that caveat, that potentially predatory crabs and the coral banded are a problem with this method, because they hunt in the dark, while fish doze a lot.

biecacka

11/26/2011, 02:26 PM

I'm on day 2 and i was running my skimmer a bit too wet as it dumped a few gallons onto my floor!!!!! :) :(
oh well i got it up and getting it back online to finish sucking up this crud!
corey

rick12

11/26/2011, 04:27 PM

yes rearranged the rock a while back and boom phosphates i guess. :(
but the green algae acts like cyno. it can be blown off with a baster. it doesnt stick like hair algae etc.
LFS says to use chemiclean but i am reluctant to use chems and just do W/C and gfo and carbon and added more Powerheads. thinking about vodka though.

The green stuff I think is a regular algae. COuld even be turf algae, which can be a kind of red spiky growth or blackish green. It's more responsive to light and a lights-out could affect it, but it's more likely to respond somewhat to a reduction in phosphate. I've got turf in my fuge, and down there it just seems to be part of the system. I do note it grows directly under the light, so a persistent lights-out once a month might put a dent in it growing where you don't want it. If a true green, also possible, it's probably not turf but more a real algae...I don't know the name of it. But in planning a treatment it's useful to note whether it's growing in shade or brightest part of the tank. If in shade, it's chemically sustained; if in bright light, light deprivation will damage it, and cyclical light deprivation may do it in.

Sk8r

11/26/2011, 04:32 PM

I think you're right, rick12. If it isn't cyano, the gfo should get it, though it might take a while, and you might try a 24 hour lightsout and see if it makes a dent in it.

One thing---with cyano---the type of lights you have make a big difference in how you see it, as red, or brown; but green---I'm thinking that's one of those sheeting algaes.

talwen

11/27/2011, 11:26 PM

Hello,

I was wondering what type of affect this method has on RBTA and zoa's for not having lights for 3 days. I have a bad outbreak due to my new lights i installed recently and was wondering how this would affect it.

The Punisher

11/28/2011, 08:21 AM

I just turned my lights back on after 3 days of darkness and I gotta say, no cyano! :dance:

I also have zoas and a RBTA and so far everything looks just fine.

Sk8r

11/28/2011, 10:10 AM

Understand that 'lights out' happens in the tropics naturally. When thick cloud rolls over an area in a tropical storm, the amount of light that gets down to the corals is hugely diminished. This can last more than a day. And it happens at random. While we as a hobby were providing (through our light) sunrise and twilight and moonlight cycles and all of this---we did not think about storms. But in nature, there are stormy days, which probably help clear this stuff out.

Steadysteady

11/28/2011, 10:39 AM

Hi, been having an issue with cyano for a while so going to give this method a try. So plan is three days blackout. wet skim. new carbon passively. I currently dose zeostart, should I stop this for blackout period. Corals are hammer goniopora toadstool. Two purple firefish and cuc. Will corals be ok and should I offer fish food or feed them up well for day or two and then do blackout. Phosphate zero on Hanna,nitrates zero on Salifert. new bulbs, good flow. Possibly crap sand, although I took some out a week ago and just tested water I left it in and zero phosphates too on Hanna and Salifert.

alessandro

11/28/2011, 10:57 AM

I used this method several times in the past and each time with success.
I would only suggest, expecially if you have corals sensitive to sudden changes in alk, to stop or reduce to 90% your calcium reactor or your 2 part dosing because during the 3 days your tank will drastically reduce the consumption of calcium/alk.

Steadysteady

11/28/2011, 10:59 AM

I am balling with fauna Marin. Should I stop the dosing pumps during blackout?

alessandro

11/28/2011, 11:15 AM

Me too using balling.
I keep my dosing at 10% of normal values.
test your alk and dose accordingly.

Steadysteady

11/28/2011, 11:28 AM

Me too using balling.
I keep my dosing at 10% of normal values.
test your alk and dose accordingly.

Sounds good, Alk and Mg could do with dropping a little anyway, Ca could do with increasing, so I'll reduce Alk and Mg to 10% and leave Ca to let it raise a little.

Any advice on the other bits I posted originally greatly appreciated?
Zeostart is a form of carbon dosing or so is my understanding, hard to know with Zeo products

Steadysteady

11/29/2011, 08:47 AM

Ok so operation blackout has begun. Few quick questions.
Should I continue to carbon dose Zeostart( source similar to vodka, vinegar etc )as normal or stop during lights out?
Will beneficial bacteria be killed off too therefore requiring me to dose bacterial source ie Zeobac,MB7 or something similar?
Will putting in new activated carbon(passively) help the process?

Answers to these question would be brilliant as I can relax a bit then. Also should I maybe put on light a for ten minutes and feed firefish once in middle of process?
Thanks for any help/advice

alessandro

11/29/2011, 09:49 AM

Sk8r

11/29/2011, 10:03 AM

Fish take two weeks to suffer serious food deprivation: no, just offer food: if they don't want it, don't worry. They're FAR from starving in a couple of days.

Alessandro has a good idea.

Sk8r

11/29/2011, 10:03 AM

Fish take two weeks to suffer serious food deprivation: no, just offer food in the dark: if they don't want it, don't worry. They're FAR from starving in a couple of days.

Alessandro has a good idea.

Steadysteady

11/29/2011, 11:08 AM

ok was dosing 0.6ml a day so will reduce to 0.3ml a day. Any thoughts on good bacteria, maybe add some after lights go back on. Also I might Zeozym in the middle day, tomorrow to help get any gunk out.

Thanks

I'll post results/observations when finished.

Hextall

11/29/2011, 11:25 AM

Sk8r

11/29/2011, 11:35 AM

Interesting. Thank you for that graph. Does indicate caution in any process that's going to drop ph.

Re bacteria: only cyano, of things in your tank, is light-dependent. Your bacteria will probably increase during that period due to eating the dieoff from the cyano.

Steadysteady

11/29/2011, 12:30 PM

I did the 3 days lights out this past weekend (I posted some pictures near the beginning of this thread). Everything went fine, I don't have a skimmer, so I was a little worried.

I tested after lights out, and all parameters were good (NH3=0, nitrate=0), not sure if the breakdown of cyano would have increased these enough to actually see the waste products. My filter floss was pretty dirty with a reddish tint (usually not reddish). so I think it was filtering out the suspended cyano.

I did a water change, changed filter floss... and within a few hours, teh filter floss again had a very faint reddish tint (I put a lot in, and it seemed like it was clogging a bit). replaced filter floss again. Not reddish a couple days later.

There were a couple of spots with cyano still, and a few bubbles on the rocks last night. so I'll probably do another round of lights out soon (not sure what soon will mean though... maybe a week, maybe this weekend? depends on how much cyano comes back).

Just wanted to post this graph of pH over the past 7 days (note: I'm not sure my pH probe is calibrated accurately, so ignore the actual pH values, just look at the trends). Lights went out on the morning of the 25th, and back on in the evening of the 27th. It graphically shows a little bit what people are discussing regarding dosing. I had a refugium light on at night.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ocXi7H8vfcs/TtUUBTB4g_I/AAAAAAAAAsQ/8anyxBVMYyE/s400/apex_PH_Lights_out.jpg

Yeah I had considered the ph drop, I have a sump with live rock in it(more because I'm planning a rescape and wanted to clean them off of any algae and though time in sump with no lights would help). Do you think I should maybe get a light in there and have it on 24/7 to help balance any ph flucuations. Will this even help? Also my current ph is 8.1 as i just checked it and lights have been out since about 12 last night and its 6pm here now. I'm just waiting on a bulb for chaeto in sump so could put in a bog standard light in meantime. What ya guys think?
Just for reference in case I lose it Alk is 7.95 Ca is 420 and Mg is 1420.
I have set 50% dose to see what happens to these during blackout.

Sk8r

11/29/2011, 05:20 PM

For my fuge I just use a shoplight with a 6500k CFL bulb. Works like a charm. And I don't lights-out my fuge when I do the tank, but then the fuge is in the basement.

Mockmo

11/29/2011, 08:59 PM

its been a few days since i took off the covers, and i must say i have never seen my corals this vibrant and alive. However the cyno and diatoms have slowly began to come back, i guess ill be doing the 3 day no lights again soon!

disc1

11/29/2011, 09:34 PM

Haven't stopped by this thread in a while. Wow, it went big. Another great thread Sk8r!

question,

according to disc1, cyano can live with, or without light.

so how is removing light for 3 days going to help ? it will just change the type/property of cyano, right ?

[please dont get me wrong, not saying it wont work :) I have been using this method to control mainly hair algae in my FOWLR tanks. no lights for 3 days, with sides of tank covered in dark, and on 4th day I do a huge 40% water change as everything is dead and released its nutrition]

just wondering if there is more on it :)

Anytime you can get your energy for free from light, that is going to be a lot easier than working for it. So if there is plenty of light around (and there'd better be if you have corals) then cyano gets to take advantage of all that free energy. When we go lights out we aren't going to kill it all, but we are making the conditions not so conducive to overgrowth. Now since there is way more cyano in the tank when you go lights out than the tank can support in the dark, they end up quickly starving themselves out. It is very important that you are exporting nutrients and skimming during this time so their little corpses don't foul up your water and fuel the next outbreak.

Once you have cyano under control, the little patches that come and go shouldn't worry you. They are usually just telling you that the flow is too slow in one spot or that detritus is building up somewhere. Get them with the siphon hose and if they come back investigate them.

In truth, it's a shame that we find cyanobacteria and GHA so ugly because they actually do a wonderful job of cleaning up your water. How many 0 PO4 / 0 NO3 why do I still have algae threads do we see? It's because the algae cleans the water. There is even evidence (I think I posted it on page one of this thread) of cyanobacteria cleaning the water from heavy metals like copper.

disc1

11/29/2011, 10:15 PM

Hydrogen peroxide is a dangerous measure to take without a 'dissolved oxygen' test kit: if you make a mistake with this, it can take out your tank. Basically you are saturating your system with oxygen. Hydrogen peroxide can help deal with algae; and it can help oxygenate a crashing tank, but since it can also cause a tank crash, do not do this one without having that test kit to use and without precise measurements: I'd ask Bertoni or Disc One over in the chemistry forum before trying it. Determining real water volume in a tank is very difficult because of porous rock and sand, and knowing that is important to this method.

I tend to agree with Sk8r on this one. I've seen a few threads on the subject in the Chemistry forum and the idea has generally been frowned upon. Unless you have the scientific expertise to properly watch what you are doing, it could quickly go very wrong on you. Peroxide has an irritating effect on the gills on other sensitive tissues of your pets. There are also some deleterious effects reported on corals. And if you manage to push your ORP much over 550 or 600mV you are going to effectively sterilize your tank and kill every living thing in it.

There are much safer, better, and more effective ways to kill cyano or dinos.

Steadysteady

12/01/2011, 02:40 AM

Into last day of lights out. 24 hrs from now I'll be putting th T5's on for the day and Mg the following day. I'll post any observations then but Ph is staying pretty steady and Alk rock solid with the 50% normal dose. I'd say firefish will be happy to see a bit of mysis and the corals a bit of light. Hopefully fingers crossed cyano will be gone or at least badly beaten up.

Sk8r

12/01/2011, 12:28 PM

You might do a reduced photo period on reef-capable T5's, to avoid 'sunburn' of the corals. Think of orchestrating the slow thinning of cloud as the hurricane leaves the reef area, and the sun begins to come out.....

Steadysteady

12/01/2011, 02:32 PM

Ok maybe just remove high tech black out equipment(black bags) and open curtains and door and let natural light in tomorrow morning and tommorrow evening put on T5's for 3-4 hours and then just T5's following day and Halides then day after and normal timing. How does that sound. Had a peek today on snad bed and looks like cyano has turned into a very dull red covering with no bubbles so hopefully it has been given a bit of a beating. Should I syphon off the residue and do a water change and resume normal dosing etc?
Thanks for advice again.

Sk8r

12/01/2011, 04:06 PM

Yes.

StephLionfish

12/01/2011, 11:28 PM

Well, I added a tiny powerhead and it was all gone within 24 hrs. The most amazing thing that I've ever unintentionally done in this hobby.

Steadysteady

12/02/2011, 07:45 AM

Well, I added a tiny powerhead and it was all gone within 24 hrs. The most amazing thing that I've ever unintentionally done in this hobby.

Yeah I am thinking about putting in another powerhead. Have two spare but find it hard to stop too much flow for goniopora and hammer.

Steadysteady

12/02/2011, 07:55 AM

Have the lights back on T5's. Fish doing well and eating. Goniopora and hammer looking ok, toadstool sulking,but hey that's what they do best. As for the cyano, I wouldn't say that the sand is back white as it has a rusty powder/residue on top of it so going to syphon it off hopefully. To be honest I don't like the size of the sand I put in so when I redo the rockwork I'm taking the sand out and gonna leave bb for a while.
So my opinion yes it will definitely help but for me it didn't completely clear the tank. But with a water change and syphon, it may well keep it at bay for a while.

Scotty878

12/03/2011, 05:53 PM

Hey, just wanna double check that this is cyano.

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/49735/2348810990087292787S500x500Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2348810990087292787Pailox)

Cyano, right? So I guess I'll start siphoning out a bunch tonight and do lights out and a water change tomorrow. Its a relatively new tank but I have some corals. I believe you said that I shouldn't need to worry about them too much but would just like to be sure....

I have a Colt, a Xenia, a small piece of brain, a single mushroom and a TINY group of Zoa's I got as a hitchhiker....Should I be OK?

Thanks so much for the great info!

Sk8r

12/03/2011, 06:00 PM

Scotty, that looks like the other bane of new tanks---diatoms.
Steadysteady, do the lights-out once monthly, about 30 days apart, and you should start seeing that stuff out of your life for a while. Not saying it won't recur now and again, but you can beat it.

Scotty878

12/03/2011, 06:16 PM

Really? I guess that's somewhat good news.... Hope I don't steal the focus of your cyano thread but should I just wait and ride it out or is there anything I can really do to speed the process along? If you don't wanna muck up this thread you could PM me.

Really appreciate it!
Thanks.

Sk8r

12/03/2011, 07:52 PM

Diatoms will respond to: 1. reduction in silicates, either from salt mix, use of non-ro/di water, or from use of sand that contains silica: [aragonite is the preferred marine sand]. 3. reduction of photoperiod (you can try the lights-out to see if it helps any. 3. reduction in phosphate (you can install a GFO reactor).

The way to tell is that diatoms are golden-brown and dustlike and cyano is red/brown, and stringy.

larryfl1

12/04/2011, 03:45 PM

hey all...

i am about 10 days into carbon dosing using nopox from red sea...

nitrates are 2.5 , and undetectable phosphates...

but i have cyano... a pretty heavy case...

whats the recommendation? the 3 day lights out? is that an issue with the carbon dosing???

Steadysteady

12/04/2011, 04:27 PM

Yeah it definitely helped, I am redoing the rockwork in tank and while I am doing it I'm going to syphon all gravel/sand into sump and possibly take it out completely. I am going to go with live carib sea Fiji pink as what I have is too big and was cheap. Probably biggest mistake so far. Going bb till I stock up more and get past new tank problems.

Would recommend blackout though. Hammer and goniopora doing great. Toadstool sulking but ok. Fish were also fine.

Thanks again all

jhoff

12/12/2011, 05:19 PM

Trying this stuff it should be here in a few days.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3975+23496&pcatid=23496

Sammibaz

12/16/2011, 03:56 PM

AMAZING RESULTS!!! A++++++ idea!!! I love an all natural approach that prevents my tank from being dosed with chemicals (blahgh!). I read this entire thread and figured I had nothing to lose. Lights went out that next morning. I turned the refugium lights out too. No lights on the tank other than the natural sun light that peeks thru the shades during the day. On the second day, the cyano was gone, but I was taking no chances. THREE DAYS was the recommend and it WORKED!!! YEAH!! My fish look amazing, the corals look amazing and there is NO more cyano anywhere! My tank is sparkling. I <3 this simple and effective solution!!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!!

RooKi3

12/20/2011, 08:48 PM

For the next few days I will be trying out the blackout method as well, will be updating my results. Thanks all.

bheron

01/03/2012, 05:21 PM

Sk8r - great thread and contribution to the forum! I've been battling this stuff for a long time now. Its been the single greatest challenge for me over 2 years now. I've done everything along the way and, still, seem to be battling it. I really contemplate giving up sometimes after almost 10 years in the hobby. This thread really gave me new life to continue on.

First, am I correct in that an identifier of cyano is small air bubbles? Thats the first sign in my tank.

I just got done a 3 day lights out that always helps, but only short term. I've been working on addressing a root cause of excessive nutrients and am baffled b/c I feel like I have that covered. Understanding that its just a way of natural tank life really helps. My problem is that it always seems to become so unmanageable, covering every single inch of the tank and choking out life. I feel like the way it covers the sandbed just traps nutrients in there? Its horrible. But maybe I do this systematically, on a monthly basis, I can beat it!

Second, can you expand more on the carbon source? I get lights and nutrients. Where does the carbon come from?

Lastly, I once read that too many water changes, or too new of a tank can make it worse. I once battled this with excessive WCs to help nutrient export and I swore it got worse! So I saw your comment about new tanks and wanted to ask more.

I'm sure I have more questions but once I figure this out I hope to contribute more on what I consider my greatest challenge and what has help me back from my goals in this hobby.

What a great perspective you've given us. thank you!!

Hextall

01/10/2012, 09:59 AM

Just wanted to post an update. Twice I did 3-days lights out... once starting 11/24, and once starting 12/14.

After the first event, some cyano came back relatively quickly. In fact, it started to look like it was going to be just as thick in some spots (I posted some pictures in this thread, and some people said it wasn't that bad, but it looked bad to me).

So I did a second lights out event, and since that one, almost a month ago, cyano has not returned.

I don't have a skimmer in my 29g Biocube, but maybe because I didn't have as much as other people might, I could get away with not having it. My filter floss did turn lightly maroon with the die off.

It works.

bheron

01/11/2012, 08:56 AM

Hextall, thats great news. I am starting my 2nd round right now. The first round did a good job. But I've also been using GFO. Figured that, with the lights off, and skimming should help alot.

sslak

01/11/2012, 09:35 AM

Bearing this in mind, I'm gonna leave my cyano and just tell all my friends I'm growing dinosaurs in my tank!

Sk8r - Kidding aside - Have you ever seen anything that looks every much like cyano, but is very dark red, almost brownish/black. I have this, and texture, appearance, and where it grows acts just like cyano....but mine is WORSE when the lights are out! It burns away as the light cycle progresses, especially once my halides kick in, and it's almost gone by the time the lights turn off. Then it comes back by the next morning.

It's strange stuff.

JerseyClowns

01/11/2012, 03:15 PM

When I've had outbreaks in the past what's worked for me is the following: lights out for 3 days (and then reduced lighting for the next several weeks), minimum to no feeding the tanks for a couple of days while the lights are out and GFO until my phosphates read under .02.

Now I shut my lights one weekend every month and I no longer have any outbreaks.

JerseyClowns

01/11/2012, 03:17 PM

cnraab

01/19/2012, 09:43 PM

Sk8r, thank you so much for sharing this natural eradication method. I will employ this method as part of my maintenance schedule going forward.

larryfl1

01/22/2012, 07:02 AM

hi,

i have done 3 days lights out multiple times...

i just finished another 3 days and i have a little cyano here and there... not like before but spots...

do i need more time??

also with nitrates at 2 and phosphates at .15 should it grow back quickly? this was my 3rd time trying to get rid of it...

Gandolfe

01/22/2012, 08:16 AM

do you turn off your algae scrubber lighting as well when you do a lights out cure for cyano? won't that kill the turf alage also on you scrubber or just wound it?..LOL Because i have purplish black cyano, on rocks and sand. It can be vacuumed off

bheron

01/25/2012, 11:19 AM

Gandolfe - I thought about the same thing. I left the light on in my sump and fuge to help keep PH balanced. but this time around I'm shutting them off for everything.

do_0b

01/26/2012, 10:42 PM

i have my tank in the bedroom and the curtain is always down
is it ok still or do i need to cover it with a blanket?

do_0b

01/27/2012, 11:19 PM

also on the third day how long do you run the atinics?

do_0b

01/31/2012, 03:16 PM

bump?

bheron

01/31/2012, 03:32 PM

I think the curtain down is fine. but the less light the better. as far as the timing of the lights back on, i always turn them on gradually over 1 day, but i dont have many sensitive corals. depends on what you have in your tank. point is to turn the lights back on gradually.

andysolo

02/03/2012, 12:56 PM

I'm currently fighting something in my tank. It’s either cyano or dinos, but not 100% sure. It’s brown and slimy and covered all my rocks. It blows off easily with a turkey baster. Nitrates and phosphates always read 0. Started GFO yesterday and looking to do lights out. I'm going on vacation soon. Will the tank be ok for with no lights for 7 days? Or should I just run only actinics instead? Or no lights but allow the light coming from the windows?

bamf25

02/03/2012, 03:06 PM

My main issue is brown almost slimy strings that come off my rock, as well as some browning on my sand. I assume that this is cyano. With gfo the regrowth has slowed to a crawl compaired to what it was, but I may have to try the light thing. It goes into the catagory of too good to be true almost.

bamf25

02/05/2012, 12:56 PM

Why is the recomendation 3 days? Also, if you are going to start carbon dosing or something similar do you do it during the dark period or after you finish?

BTW: sticky this thread.

do_0b

02/05/2012, 10:39 PM

if I'm not mistaken..brown stringy stuff is dino..
does it have air bubbles at the tip of it?
cyano is usually red in colour.

andysolo

02/06/2012, 07:59 AM

It doesn't usually have bubbles. I've also increased the flow and it didn't help at all. I have a pump blowing directly to a rock and it's still covered with this nasty stuff. Adding GFO didn't help much yet. And Hanna is constantly showing 0 phosphates. I was thinking that maybe the rocks are leaching phosphates, but this thing is growing on everything, glass, overflow, you name it. The only thing it's not growing on is the corals' live tissue. :furious: I will try to do some water changes, but I'm afraid that this will fuel it more.

do_0b

02/06/2012, 09:58 AM

are you using ro/di water?

andysolo

02/06/2012, 10:10 AM

Yes, I do. And it reads 0 TDS. I'm also using LEDs. Worth mentioning that I was running bio-pellets and I probably overdid it. I'm wondering if I still have excess carbon in the system and I just need to wait out until it wears off.

bheron

02/07/2012, 11:04 AM

I would like to understand the whole carbon thing. sk8tr I think said carbon is one of the things Cyano needs. Yet I also hear people talking about dosing carbon. I've never dosed carbon in any way and haven run carbon in my reactor in months.

From what I remember, cyano needs:

1) light
2) phosphate
3) carbon (I think?)

shikhyung

02/09/2012, 03:47 PM

One that I have in my tank is brown and looks filmy, however, blowing off like dust if using turkey baster....It does go away at night and back to normal when light is up. Not sure it cyano or diatom, but will it be treated the same light out method?

myroom

02/27/2012, 01:50 PM

I appreciate you sharing this information and find it helpful for all. I had the cyno and tried your method and sure enough no more cyno after 5 days still gone. On the flip side after the 3rd day after removing the black out blankets two small acros bleached out and my pink lemonade turned white, however its still fully polyping out. I put the led lights on only 50percent any ideas what might have caused this?Thank you for your time.

Sk8r

02/27/2012, 10:26 PM

Very sorry to hear that. I've never had a bleaching problem with sps, but most of mine (pre-move) were validas and montiporas, which are pretty tolerant. If this is mh, standard advice do the 4th day with actinics only---but leds are a whole new problem and I really don't know the technology, except to advise duplicating that step by adjusting the light or reducing the next-day photoperiod way down. They can get a burn if you have very potent light and it doesn't have that intermediate wakeup. I'd add a caveat to this: if you have very delicate sps high up and very strong light, an intermediate step to ease the corals back into full daylight is a good idea.

Craigsmini

02/28/2012, 08:19 PM

Should I leave the lights out on my refugium that is in the basement when I try this? Thanks for the help

Sk8r

02/28/2012, 10:19 PM

You can run the fuge lights: it's light shining in the DT you have to eliminate.

BradMugs

02/28/2012, 11:07 PM

For a wrap i purchased some material they make black out curtians from. It can be purchased from most fabarih shops. I used some velcro attached to the tank & thr fabric for easy on & off.keeps the tank warm in the winter & does a great job of blocking outside light.

bheron

02/29/2012, 08:36 AM

You can run the fuge lights: it's light shining in the DT you have to eliminate.

I was wondering the same. Then I was thinking, all light should be eliminated from the entire system if you have cyano in the entire system? if cyano is in the DT its probably in the fuge (even if you cant see it)?

Sucua50

02/29/2012, 09:11 AM

could u guys please look at my post and tell me if these is cyano? here is a pic. it looks green ,http://i40.*******.com/xblflv.jpg http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2139291

wolfador

02/29/2012, 10:04 AM

I am going to try this method as sucking it out daily has not worked. I have a HOB fuge, should I disable this light from also turning on at night?

Chimone

02/29/2012, 10:07 AM

I have a new tank about 2 months old. Diatoms are starting to level out and recede in some places and now Im seeing purplish/pink and red spots on some of the rocks. Im hoping its coraline starting but If its cyano do I start the blackout process now or wait to find out for sure

Sk8r

02/29/2012, 10:13 AM

If it's a HOB fuge, you're going to have to cut the light. If there's a window near, you're going to have to stop that light, too. Cyano appears anything from red to brown to even purplish, depending on your lights---and the bias of the person looking at it. It occurs in mats, at its worst, with bubbles of oxygen in it. It gets better at night and worse during the day (lights). It's never green.
Remember strong skimming is important while you're killing it off. It dissolves as it dies and it's important to get as much of its gunk out as possible. In a bad case, you may have to do this once a month for several months to get it, but it can be done---of all the algaelike plagues, it looks awful, but is one of the easiest to stop. Cyano is present in just about every tank---every lake, river, and ocean on Earth---but the conditions that let it blossom into a red sheet of nastiness are a phase many tanks go through. Once really under control, you'll see it turn up a little bit when your lights expire, or when window light gets to your tank. But you usually get it really bad just once, when your tank is still young.

wolfador

03/06/2012, 08:31 AM

Just wanted to post an update.

I did 3 days of just turning off the lights, did not cover the tank or anything. Windows in the room already had "blackout curtains" so I left them closed.

After turning the lights back on all of the cyano was gone. Tank looks wonderful.

hkgar

03/07/2012, 03:43 PM

wolfador

03/07/2012, 10:01 PM

How dark was the room?

The tank is in my dining room, it received enough light from the kitchen and living room that I did not need to turn on the lights in the room to do anything I needed in the room.

faisal629

03/08/2012, 10:41 PM

Hey guys I started the same lights off thing today, I have this in my fuge (pics below) I have nothing in my tank though, why? I dont have my tank lights on but there is plenty of lighting to go there. and last but not least is this even cyno? [SK8R here: actually that looks like a type of red algae that grows in tufts. It may respond to lack of light, but I don't think it's cyano.]

http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx19/faisal629/20120307_233454.jpg

http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx19/faisal629/20120307_233502.jpg

http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx19/faisal629/20120307_233522.jpg

and this is the lighting I have on my fuge..

http://i737.photobucket.com/albums/xx19/faisal629/20120301_171127.jpg

wolfador

03/09/2012, 07:57 AM

That doesn't look like any cyano I have seen. Mine was thick sheets with air bubbles trapped. I could blow it off using a turkey baster, are you able to blow yours off like that?

BongoSolo3

03/09/2012, 08:06 AM

I have a question for you guys -

When you do the 3 days in a row of no light, do you still feed your fish? Mine tend to hida at night, so I didn't know if they would come out to eat, or how that would work.

I have always just siphoned out cyano with each water change, but I'm consider 'going dark' for a change to see how it does....

Sk8r

03/09/2012, 10:28 AM

IME, fish in dim [room] lighting will come out for food, then go right back to their holes. This process mimics a storm and thick cloud over the reef, and the fish just take cover and wait. Watch one of the underwater cams when a hurricane is passing over, and you'll see what I mean: things go quite dim for several days.

Scott B

03/09/2012, 10:08 PM

I am having some red cyano also (fairly minor, but want to stop it before it gets too bad)... just wondering if i should shut ALL lights including my moon led lights and the nano glo light growing my chaeto?? My tank has been up and running for about 1 year, do you think something else is going on since it is established? I had a small outbreak within the first month or two of starting my tank, and then it went away from limiting the lighting. Thanks.

Sk8r

03/10/2012, 01:49 AM

The fact you have a little cyano in a fuge won't affect your display. DO the lights-out on them separately if you need to. But one does not affect the other so long as light from one doesn't reach the other.

Michael

03/10/2012, 10:07 AM

I wrote an article on cyano, it may be a little out of date now haha, but I hope it helps, it is in here somewhere http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Michael_David_Jones

am3gross

03/20/2012, 06:04 PM

Ok I am on my first day of darkness... How much of a difference would I notice after 1 day? When does most of the magic work? It's only been a day and I want to peek... I hope to pull the blanket off and BAm.... No more cyano... I hope this works...

RobertK

03/24/2012, 09:05 PM

Well, my tank has been running for 8 years and I am fighting a losing battle with cyano for the last 2 months. No idea what caused the overgrowth - I do weekly water changes, have a good skimmer, haven't made any changes. I do feed my fish and corals a lot, maybe the nutrients accumulated over time. Thought the DSB would take care of that. NO3 and PO4 are low but not zero. Phos reactor hasn't helped w/ cyano. Was thinking of dosing vodka but don't really want to go there. Will try this method but might have to do it a few times I think. Cyano is all over my sand and rocks, in both low and high flow, low and high light areas of the tank.

My tank is not by a window so I think I'll just leave lights out but not cover the tank - will room lights mess with the lights out process? Will leave the fuge lights on at night as usual.

Also - I dose 2.4 liters/day of kalk into my 70 gal tank with a Liter Meter - should I decrease the dose during lights out?

Thanks,
Robert

Sk8r

03/24/2012, 11:47 PM

Shouldn't be a problem re room lights. I've never had to cut back on kalk. But watch your ph on that account---I always track alk, not ph, but this might be an issue.
I wish you luck. I've found this works really well, but in bad cases it takes about 3 months of once-a-month treatment; and a good skimmer helps in this process. Dunno why, actually, except it's helping get stuff out that may have been the die-off of this odd and archaic beast.

RobertK

03/25/2012, 10:29 AM

Odd and archaic, but unwelcome in excess!

Thanks for the info and advice, Sk8r. I'll recalibrate my pH monitor before starting and keep an eye on it as well as alk. Will let you know how it goes.

RK

RobertK

03/29/2012, 12:36 PM

Well, I did lights out for 3 days, and when I turned the lights back on this morning this is what greeted me:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1884&pictureid=41425

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1884&pictureid=41426

There are other patches elsewhere on the rocks and sand. At this moment it is not quite as dense or extensive as it was before, but it has typically fluctuated in spread and density from day to day and even hour to hour, and I imagine by the end of today or tomorrow it will be worse.

Coupla things to note:
1. I did not cover the tank. It does not get direct sunlight but does get dim daylight and room lights. I forgot to turn off the moonlight, which is a single very dim LED that came with the Tunze pump controller and doubles as a light sensor to turn the powerheads down at night.
2. I kept the kalk running at its usual dose. I checked alk daily, and pH and alk remained stable during lights out
3. The tank has a DSB. Does cyano behave differently in a DSB tank?
4. I am not giving up, and plan to repeat lights off. Should I cover the tank next time? Why do I have to wait a month to repeat?

Thanks,
Robert

emeraude1484

04/07/2012, 08:46 AM

This is a FANTASTIC thread! Greatly appreciated :spin1:

We've been battling with a combination of algea outbreaks in our tank... Bubbles which I wont get into here... :mad: And the last month we've had extremely heavy Cyano... Most of it is red but like in another post here somewhere we have dark green as well... Same texture, acts the same. Flow hasn't helped, siphoning hasn't helped. It's climbing on to corals and causing recession. This is a 2 year old tank, we changed from 12000k mh to 20000k, the cyano had started before that but now it also seems that any coral near the koralias are overtaken by diatoms and there is recession there too... We don't have much cyano on the sand bed it seems we have enough sifters but the rocks are COVERED...

Will be posting pics later this evening. Does anyone have any pointers about the die-off near the koralias though? The pink birdsnest everywhere seems to be dying off, the yellow bn and other hard corals are fine...

Thanks!!!

Sk8r

04/07/2012, 09:00 AM

You've got it bad. I'm suspecting it loves your lights, since light is what it lives on. It's rare it gets bad enough to harm anything, but it does shut out the light...

WIth a case like this---several suggestions. If you're not using ro/di, do. You need a really really potent skimmer to help uptake the waste from a really bad case. If your skimmer is not that great---try this: follow the monthly lights out with a 30% water change (ro/di of course!) during your day of actinics-only, and three days later, another 30% water change. I don't know whether tapwater figured in your setup, but every time this stuff dies back, the dieback-nutrient is floating around in your water. Do the routine monthly and see if that doesn't help.

If you have valonia (bubble algae) it may help with that. And a GFO in your sump for about 3 months would knock the green algae.

emeraude1484

04/07/2012, 09:24 AM

No :) Learned the tapwater lesson early ;)
As for the protein skimmer We've got a Tunze about 5 years old I don't remember the model... It's essentially a compact box. I've never been too happy with it. We've got a 90gal DT and about 25gal sump/ref what skimmer would you suggest? I'm to the point that I'll fight with the setup for a better skimmer.

emeraude1484

04/07/2012, 09:36 AM

There we are it's the 9005

Sk8r

04/07/2012, 09:59 AM

Re the previous question: if simple lights out isn't working, tape garbage back to the glass next month and do a total blackout.

You wait a month because your corals need light. You could probably get away with it at 3 weeks, but ...

Sk8r

04/07/2012, 10:02 AM

Re the skimmer question: at 115 gallons in the system, you need a skimmer rated for 230-250 gallons. Google this: skimmer 250 gallon tank marine
That will show you some skimmers that will do the job for you. The Tunze 9011 would---the one you have really probably could, if not overwhelmed. Unless you'd like to jump to the larger skimmer, you might try the water changes first and see if that helps it out, but if you feel you need a better skimmer, that google search line I gave you will give you a broad selection.

emeraude1484

04/07/2012, 10:03 AM

I'll most likely be attaching the garbage bags this time around... The sun hits the tank for a good 3hrs in the evening this time of year. I'll wait the full month... We finally have good looking corals I don't want to overdo it and loose them.

emeraude1484

04/07/2012, 10:05 AM

Re the skimmer: Good to know! :) WIll look into it and see what we can budget for! Thanks!

Sk8r

04/07/2012, 10:40 AM

If sun is hitting the tank, consider a shade for that window...that's a huge source of cyano problems. In my list of what lives on light, especially weird-spectrum light like angled sunlight---I forgot to add---cyano.

emeraude1484

04/13/2012, 07:07 AM

I just finished the 3 day no lights treatment and the cyano seems to have dissipated substantially. I think this gives us a really good idea of were there's a lack of water flow too.
I was wondering if I had my lights on too long... I have 2 XM 20000k MH that have been on from 11:30 to 7:30 and 2 t5 atinics that have been running from 10:30-12:30 and 6:30-8:30... The corals and clams are loving it... But the algae seems to be running amok too. Any thoughts?

emeraude1484

04/13/2012, 07:08 AM

fyi: Green cyano easier to be rid of than red!

RobertK

04/13/2012, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the reply Sk8r. I am planning to do another lights out cycle but will wait the full month and do the garbage bags next time. Did I miss something earlier in the thread about just running actinics only after the lights out?

Also, this business about the weird spectrum light concerns me - we are thinking of spending a lot of money to install a stained glass skylight in the ceiling of our entry hall, where the tank is located. It will receive indirect light from several solar tubes attached to skylights on the roof. There will be no direct light from this hitting the tank, but it will introduce some ambient light with different colors into the room - am I asking for more cyano trouble with this?

Thanks,
Robert

Sk8r

04/13/2012, 01:00 PM

Yes, if you have corals or are using MH or strong LED, do one day by moonlights or actinics only to let the corals wake up and not burn.

RobertK

04/13/2012, 01:07 PM

I do have corals, lots of them. My tank is lit by 4 x 54w T5 bulbs (4' long tank). They are on two ballasts and one has the Blue Plus bulbs so I can run that one only for a day, though they didn't seem to mind all 4 bulbs back on at once last time.

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 06:34 AM

Finally some pics!!!

Before
http://s1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/?action=view&current=before5.jpg

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 06:35 AM

after
http://s1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/?action=view&current=after32.jpg

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 06:37 AM

Before I post anymore... This doesn't seem to be working How is it that I post pics on here? I opened a photobucket account and taking the urls from individual photos...

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 06:52 AM

Trying again, Before:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/before5.jpg
After:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/after32.jpg
Before:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/before2.jpg
After:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/after4.jpg
Before:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/before3.jpg
After:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/after8.jpg
Before:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/before6.jpg
After:
http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh559/emeraude1484/after6.jpg

Help me save my corals! There's so much growth on top but everything below is being choked by algea!!!

RobertK

04/14/2012, 09:43 AM

I wonder if there is something about birdsnests that makes them more vulnerable to cyano. I just noticed a little cyano on my ponape birdsnest last night. I'm gonna have to do another lights out soon. If I were you I'd cut a nice big frag off a viable part of that birdsnest while I still could - it looks pretty far gone.... :(

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 09:59 AM

I KNOW the pink is all but gone :( the thick yellow birdnest is doing pretty good though. I'm debating using Chemi clean... I know it isn't a SOLUTION but it seems to have good reviews and at least it might help me save some corals while I find the issue...
My concern is that although corals and inverts seem ok after using it does anyone know if my copepod population will be affected? I FINALLY felt comfortable that a mandarin would have a sufficient diet in my tank!

RobertK

04/14/2012, 10:24 AM

emeraude -
Just wondering, besides the skimmer what else are you doing for nutrient export (water changes, GFO, carbon, mechanical filtration, refugium, etc)? With all that valonia as well I gotta think you've got a nutrient excess situation in your tank. What are your N and P levels? I've noticed that my cyano recedes for a couple of days after doing a large water change - not something I can do twice a week as a solution but suggests that's the cause (or at least a contributor) to the cyano overgrowth in my tank. I've tried everything I can think of short of dosing carbon to get the nutrients down in my tank. Wish I could get my N down to zero. I think I have too many fish but I don't want to get rid of anyone!

RK

Sk8r

04/14/2012, 10:28 AM

I tried Chemi-Clean (gotta make some of these mistakes myself, don't I?) while my tank was less than a year old. It cost me about 500.00 in copepods keeping my mandy alive. Totally crashed the pod population and it took months to recover. Granted I have a 54 gallon and at that time had no fuge, so a mandy is pretty marginal, I swore I'd never use it again.
The deal with cyano, emeraude, is that it eats 3 things as a must-have. Light, water, and carbon. It can also live on additional nutrients, but it adapts to what's available, and the only thing we can remove from our tanks that will assuredly kill it---is light. CHemi-clean is one of the -mycin antibiotics---can't remember whether it's a gram negative or gram positive...negative, I think; whatever it is is what cyano is, so it claims to kill it without killing off your sandbed and rock. Personally, while I know the sandbed bacteria is basically the opposite, I'm not that convinced everything beneficial is the opposite. I found it set my tank back considerably in maturity.
Many corals develop dead spots as they grow, which is how reefs grow. The dead parts become the base of new coral. I'd recommend just fragging and reattaching to plugs or bits of rock. I grow lps, and it produces a LOT of stem as it grows. I use it as live rock, and just use it to brace corals with.

Just a note re skimmers: the lights-out method relies on the skimmer to pull the dieoff of the cyano out. If your skimmer is underperforming, that can be a problem. It can REALLY be a problem if you use ChemiClean,because that really floods the system with dead biomass.

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 10:37 AM

Thanks sk8r! I'll try to tough it out a bit longer, maybe overdo the waterchanges and figure out how to incorporate a better skimmer before I break down and use Chemi-clean.. I hate the idea of putting anything into my tank but I really don't want everything to die since to cyano is climbing on to LIVE tissue and killing it too.... Same token I don't want my long awaited mandy dying either :)

RobertK

04/14/2012, 10:43 AM

Sk8r -
If cyano grows on carbon would it then be a bad idea for me to start dosing vodka or using biopellets as a way to reduce nitrates, since I already have excess cyano in my tank?
Thanks for all the info,
RK

emeraude1484

04/14/2012, 10:49 AM

RobertK- Other than the skimmer I have a sump/refugium, running phosban and carbon reactors, do 15-20% water change weekly. I only have 2 clowns, 1 firefish, 1 yellow watchman goby and a mandy. I have NO IDEA were the excess nutrients are coming from. Nitrates Nitrites Ammonia 0 Phosphate haven't tested in a bit ph was 8.2 last test

Sk8r

04/14/2012, 10:59 AM

Robert, that one I don't know. I've never dosed vodka, but I'd say since cyano definitely uses carbon, it could be a problem. I think clearing it up would be a priority, so you can work with a chemistry that isn't already supporting this stuff.

jock

04/14/2012, 05:21 PM

Done the 3 days no light last month. Tank looked great...for couple of hours & then it started coming back. Seriously, 12 hours afterwards it was back to looking not very nice! Felt sick!
Was depressing, but beginning of week I decided my fish are too awesome & am not giving up on them! So tried it again. Tank looked awesome again! 48hours later.....tank still looks awesome!! :bounce1: I have no doubt that it will return but it has boosted my spirit :) It can be beaten! Don't know if it's my imagination but I swear my fish are much happier also. Royal Gramma & Firefish mostly just hid in their wee hides but they have been out a hell of a lot more often since 2nd lights out.
Sk8r you are my hero :love1: haha

Sk8r

04/14/2012, 06:11 PM

Lol. Just keep skimming...

emeraude1484

04/15/2012, 05:32 AM

I did a 30gal wc, changed the gfo and carbon media, cleaned pumps and skimmer and (since I'm a tad sick of this) I scrapped the heck out of everything with bubble and cyano on it before doing the water change. I know, I know bursting the bubbles could make it worse... But if pratically every surface has it and it's choking things I'm to the point I'll take the chance ;)

Sk8r

04/15/2012, 08:01 AM

kawicivic

04/15/2012, 08:12 AM

I had a pretty big problem in my 180 with the stuff and just did a lights out at the suggestion of the thread. Three days later and things still look amazing in comparison. I am pretty sure I will need to do it again in month, but at least it looks good in the meantime. It really made my few rocks with HA standout (different story - lol).

I didn't really get that much skimmate out of the tank.

Also - I run a mainly SPS and LPS tank (only have one set of zoas and one Xenia island) - all of the stony corals were fine. I have a ton of frags and probably 3 5+ inch colonies and everything in between. The softies had no issue - the Xenia looked funny for a day due to light shock I believe. I did not do a day of actinics. I am not recommending that, but just saying that I did not do it and I did not experience any bleaching.

I think that's about it. I just wanted to add some more real world experience to this thread. Let me know if you have any questions on my outcome. I definitely think it is worth trying if you have Cyano.

Squidmotron

04/15/2012, 10:25 AM

Just got out of my hair algae phase and I swear not less than a week and I am clearly having a cyano outbreak. There's not too much yet, but I'm almost sure that's what it is.

I'm not excited to turn off the lights for 3 days. I just did that to help fight off the hair algae problem. Ah well.

One of the things I began recently running is biopellets. I fear this may have aided the cyano outbreak.

emeraude1484

04/16/2012, 07:21 AM

Yours is unusually persistent. Is your tank exposed to direct sunlight at any time of day, and how old and what sort are your lights? MH above 8 months old can do this. So can a sneaky sunbeam coming in at a certain time of day.

That's what I was wondering... Is my lighting times overdoing it?
I just changed to xm 20000k on from 12:30-5:00 and 2 t5 actinics on from 11:30-1:30 and 4:30-8:00

It's in the living room so, yes, the sun HAS started hitting it for about an hour in the evening. I just cut the MH times because of it.

Thanks again sk8r!

Sk8r

04/16/2012, 12:26 PM

Curtain that window or put a tall screen near your tank. That may solve your problem.
I run 2 color-correction actinics 12 hours, and have 6 hours of metal halide 10000k in the middle.

Paul B

04/16/2012, 03:03 PM

Being this is a thread about how does everyone get rid of cyano I guess I should say that two weeks ago I went to Europe and left someone in charge of the tank.
They let the water level drop 7" and many corals died.
That is not the point. With so much dead tissue cyano developed on much of the gravel.
2 days ago I added Chemi Clean and like it always does, no more cyano.
I love that stuff and may take it myself. ;)

Squidmotron

04/16/2012, 03:06 PM

Does Chemi Clean hurt anything else?

Paul B

04/16/2012, 03:16 PM

Does Chemi Clean hurt anything else?

I have used it maybe a dozen times in 30 years and it never hurt anything.
I have an old tank with mixed corals and a bunch of fish and clams. They are all smiling. But the stuff is expensive, SKR8s plan is free

heckfire

04/16/2012, 05:19 PM

since i did my tank upgrade,, i ditched my dsb in the tank and in the fuge, and no longer use caulerpa, i set up my fuge with gfo and carbon, with my skimmer. tank is pristine now,, i am no longer a fan of macros or dsb. before this i allways fought algae and cyano, even diatoms..............i dont think its lighting, i think its a dietrus buildup

kissman

04/19/2012, 07:05 PM

I have been fighting this stuff for awhile, I think this weekend I am going to pick up some black construction paper tape it around the front and sides of the tank that way I still have good oxygen excahnge on the surface with top open. Monday go lights out tank and sump. I will cut off my Calcium and Alk dosers. On Wed I will cut one set of lights on when I get home from work and then let all 6 bulbs run Thursday. I am usually out of town on the weekends so I need to start brining lights up on Wed so Thurs when i get home from work if there are any problems I can fix them. I am running GFO and Carbon. How does this sound? another question.....When I my lights cycle off, I have 1 powerhead that cuts off, and 2 that slow down on wavemaker. Should I let them run full blast as if lights were on? Cut one off and just leave the wavemaker wide-open?

RobertK

04/27/2012, 06:38 PM

So I waited 4 weeks then did a second round of lights out x 3 days because the cyano had come back just as bad as before. This time I covered the tank w/ a dark sheet, then ran actinics only for the first day afterward. After 3 days the cyano is now coming back. Not sure I agree with this method.

kissman

04/27/2012, 06:50 PM

Lights out kills cyano does not cure the problem. The nutrients have to be reduced. If i dont get my nutrients down it will return on me too. This weekend i am going to double my amount of gfo from 1 cup to 2 cups and see what happens

Sk8r

04/27/2012, 06:55 PM

SKim-mer. Get your skimmer going really efficiently.

Joe0813

04/27/2012, 08:16 PM

i have cyano and need to do a lights out :(

Sk8r

04/27/2012, 08:58 PM

Takes usually about 3 months of once-a-month lights-out to get a bad case killed off. But patience will get it, and do so safely, within the easy survival-limits of a new tank and not-so-great skimmer.

RobertK

04/28/2012, 12:15 PM

My skimmer rocks and it is dialed in. Nitrates stuck at 5. Phosphates measure zero. Something else must be out of balance in my tank as I have lost several corals during this cyano outbreak over the last few months, but I can't figure it out. I know this thread is in the New To The Hobby forum but I have been reefing for 14 years and am baffled. I may simply have too many fish or am feeding them too much. Will try lights out for the third time next month, but less than one week after the second time there are cyano patches all over the sandbed.

Sk8r

04/28/2012, 04:06 PM

This is a bit of a poser. Have you ANY sponges, traps of any sort that are keeping the nitrate up? I've got successful parameters in my sig line---anything there ring a bell? It's just bizarre to have this much trouble getting rid of this stuff. Did you mention whether you have ANY direct sunlight reaching it, anything bounced off, say, a decorative mirror, and how old are your bulbs? 6-8 mos for MH. LIGHT in some form or another, is far more suspect with this stuff than nutrients, although a good skim while it dies out is helpful.

RobertK

04/28/2012, 06:52 PM

I started using a filter sock a month or so ago, change it out twice a week, no change in nitrates since then one way or the other. I have some carbon and GFO in filter bags that the water passes through. All water quality params in line except NO3. I use T5 bulbs, changed them out a month ago. I pushed the bulbs toward the blue end of the spectrum - does the color spectrum of the bulb have anything to do with it? That is, does cyano prefer a particular wavelength that I should be staying away from?

Sk8r

04/28/2012, 08:21 PM

It is highly adaptive, like some sf monster, but---it seems happiest with a slanted sunlight or slightly skewed spectrum. Blue waves are the longest and most energetic. The stuff had its heyday during the Permian Extinction, when our sun was clouded with crud in the skies from, perhaps, the Siberian Traps, and under that cirumstance, yes, blue would be the wave length that tended to get through, I'd think. It might be a factor, but perhaps not the only one. If all else fails you might TRY the Chemiclean, since you have a really good skimmer, if I'm remembering correctly, and it might wipe out your microlife for a few months, but I'd call that the last ditch try, if you've tried everything else, and most of all if you have a skimmer that's up to snuff. If you have a bad case, it really throws a dead bioload into your skimmer within 24 hours, and it can crash a tank, for that reason. Skim and skim and skim, and be prepared to coddle that tank as if it were much younger, would be my recommendation, if you do opt to use the chemical: it's very bad news if you have a dragonet: your copepods will crash and you could have a bloom of green algae as a result. CHemiclean is an antibiotic, of opposite gram stain quality to the sandbed bacteria, but it is capable of getting the stuff. It is last-ditch, but it is efficient.

bwig333

05/29/2012, 01:13 PM

kissman

05/29/2012, 02:16 PM

I am only getting cyano in my fuge. I have an old lighting system on fuge, and know that the bulb is expired. All my parameters are good except nitrates are a little high (20ppm). Doing weekly water change, but it persists. I am going to try the no lights thing on my fuge, but am worried it may then go into display(is this a reasonable fear?). BTW, I am going to put a new bulb in fuge light.

The nitrates could be causing it, if its in the fuge I am not sure I would worry about it, I have the same thing going on and I am happy if its in fuge its not in display. Weekly water changes will not git rid of it, several a week water chanegs will help

bwig333

05/29/2012, 07:24 PM

The nitrates could be causing it, if its in the fuge I am not sure I would worry about it, I have the same thing going on and I am happy if its in fuge its not in display. Weekly water changes will not git rid of it, several a week water chanegs will help

Thanks. I was guessing the combination of old lights and nitrates were main causes. I may just let it be for the time being then. Thanks again

jhui

06/06/2012, 11:54 PM

Anyone tried Slimelator from Ruby Reef? Is it safe?

http://www.rubyreef.net/Sliminator.html

kissman

06/07/2012, 05:24 AM

It will kill the cyano but won't fix the problem

serenitynow2010

07/14/2012, 09:25 PM

I just want to say I tried this lights out method for 3 days and I am amazed how well it worked. My sand has been about 90% cyano free for a week; hasn't looked that good in about 4 months. My zoas have been mostly closed up for the same time and now EVERY ONE is open and thriving! One small branch of a torch didn't like it and its the only thing I lost. My 5" birds nest, 2" tort, 2" stag and 3" monticap along with torch, frogspawn, dendro, candycane and a few others were unaffected.

rfequity

11/11/2012, 08:22 PM

Does flourescent room lighting have any connection to cyano?

Paul B

11/12/2012, 05:25 AM

Does flourescent room lighting have any connection to cyano?

I am not sure but I do know that if you have cyano growing in your tank and you put that fluorescent bulb in your tank, cyano will grow on it. :rolleyes:

rfequity

11/12/2012, 08:05 AM

Ok, thanks. Any real answers?

Fizzinpixie

11/26/2012, 12:57 PM

How will this affect a nem that is bleached out (came that way from the big box pet store)? I'm new to the hobby and have been trying to get rid of this stuff for about a month or two:mad2: I don't want to harm the nem but this stuff is getting unsightly and effecting my button polyps. The clean up crew won't touch it. I have pretty intense LED lighting so that is why it thrives I guess... Any advice?

Jon01

11/27/2012, 08:06 AM

What an incredibly helpful thread!
I have been fighting cyano in my 29BC for the past 3-4 weeks.
While progress has been made with daily 5g w/c's(RODI), it is getting cumbersom lugging buckets around.
I had my wife kill the lights and blanket the tank. I'm very optimistic about the results now! :)

FTDelta

11/27/2012, 09:10 AM

Great advice! I'll have to put a mental note on that for future reference. Better yet, I'm gonna print it out.

Jon01

11/30/2012, 12:20 PM

I uncovered my tank last night after 3 days in the dark and all appears to be better - there is still some fine algae but nothing like there was before!
We shall see how it looks tonight after a full day of having the lights on.

Fizzinpixie

12/01/2012, 12:56 AM

I uncovered my tank yesterday also. I had a few patches of stubborn cyano on the rocks. I had my LEDs on at the lowest setting yesterday for a couple hours then off until the morning. The white lights were only on half the day today and I saw a bit on the sand bed this afternoon. I set the timer to keep the moon lights off for longer tonight in hopes that I would not bleach out my corals. My bleached out nem was fine with added supplements. The only coral that seemed to suffer was my xenia, though my frogspawn is not happy but his color is good. I will probably have to repeat the process next month but I had incredible results. I went from rocks caked with the stuff with nasty air bubbles under and a sand bed I had to pick thick sheets off of every few days to practically nothing. My skimmer needs to be dialed in a bit better and I will do a water change tomorrow, but overall a good fix so far!

DrPat

12/01/2012, 09:23 AM

cyano and other nusance algaes grow as the nutrients available for them to consume increase .Nitrates and detritus increase the growth of these algaes. Cyano will grow in low nutrient tanks[and grow best in a low mv 200 -315] when food is provided for them such as doising vinegar in kalk. Do you have a nitrate issue if so do a 25 percent weekly water change . a sand sifting fish or starfish will help prevent the growth on the sandbed . The conditions which favor cyano are not favorable to corals ,so you have to correct the water quality. Both skimming which will remove protiens which would otherwise accumulate and be broken down by the microsopic life thus contributing to nitrates and detritus, and chemical filtration such as purigen from seachem and a phosphate filter media will help . Is you water turnover thru the sump adequate?

Fizzinpixie

12/01/2012, 11:19 PM

My water turnover is good. The issue started, I think, due to over feeding which created too much detritus in the sand bed. I don't have much algae, and what I do have the snails take care of with the exception of the cyano (as I said, my clean up crew wanted nothing to do with it). I have reduced my feeding significantly.

The die off of cyano created a high level of nitrates so I did a 25% water change and vacuumed the sand bed really well today. I also had room for some more live rock in my tank so I added that and seeded the tank with some bacteria today (needed some as I changed out my old wet dry filter with a Proflex Model 3 a week ago, and the bio balls and ceramic rings need to build up some more bacteria). I will do another water change in a couple days. to get my nitrates back to 0 again.

All the fish are happy. With the water change the corals are doing better. My nem got some fresh scallop and is doing much better especially now that the tank is clear of the overgrowth.

SkyJunkie

12/04/2012, 07:51 PM

I have been battling red/wine colored cyano on my sand bed for weeks. I've tried red slime remover, and lights out for 3 days. The cyano goes away completely but the second I turn my lights on it starts growing again. Literally in an hour I can see red developing. I have a T5 light and I've tried reducing the hours it's on as well. All my water parameters are great and I have an overflow, 9.5 mag drive pump, and 2 Hydor Koralia 1050 in my 120g.

What is causing it to grow SO fast and why can't I get it to stay away even for a couple days or a week!?

SkyJunkie

12/04/2012, 07:51 PM

double post

SkyJunkie

12/05/2012, 09:03 AM

no one? :(

Fizzinpixie

12/06/2012, 12:31 PM

It's different for every tank. I have very little re-growth after lights out and none on my sand bed but it's because I added the rest of my live rock, got my protein skimmer vent tube unblocked, and started feeding my fish a fraction of what I was before... all after doing a 30% water change and removing a good deal of crap from my sand bed. You can't do lights out then go back to what you were doing before. That's is when it doesn't work. Do you vacuum your sand bed often or agitate it with the filter going to get the crud out of the DT?

Sk8r

12/06/2012, 12:51 PM

Iceman13579

12/22/2012, 01:16 AM

Great advice, thanks

SkyJunkie

12/22/2012, 10:21 AM

Nutrients for cyano are primarily light, carbon, and water. Depriving it of nutrients is a pretty forlorn hope---except---light. It needs it far more than your corals or fish---in even 24 hours of dark, there will be some cyano dieoff. More after 3 days. You may have to repeat the 3-day dark once a month for 3-4 months to get it all---AND you should have your skimmer operating at full efficency during the lights-out to get whatever dieoff it can.

Phase in your lights rather than startling your corals with a full cycle the first day after this treatment. One day of actinic-only is a good way.

I still am fighting slime. All over.

My nitrates recently spiked out of nowhere after being perfect for a long time. Still dont know why. Had 2 fish die, not sure if its related. I have a chemi pure bag in my sump, should I take it out? Also doing a water change today. I have a coral life 150 cone skimmer, and 2 hydor 1050 powerheads, right now angled from the back to circulate to the front glass and down and inward. I can't get to much angled down or my fine sand blows everywhere. Ive tried multiple placements. Filtering 950gph. My tank is a 120. Could a disruption of the bed cause a nitrate spike?

neilhigbee

09/07/2014, 03:36 PM

Hi sk8r

Just started the 3 days lights out process, is this suitable for the blackout

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/2533e19e18d7ae3ce67629c4108b180c.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/7b72f2534c7164e69cfa2babf074ffbc.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/6846b5f9c09105b1ba56e344dd9c2d63.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/572eb18d2b7711e081c4faf4cddd98f4.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/09982227561f7df08c9698c71ea50b9c.jpg

Reason I've covered it completely is cause of windows at both end of room although curtains by tank are perminately closed now, hope this is all OK.

Just hope my corals and fish will be OK, corals I have are

Star polyps
Pulsing Xenia
ZOA's
Mushrooms
Leathers various
Candy cane

Plus a bubble tip nem

Loads of hermits snails and couple of mithrax crabs

Thanks for the great post.

neilhigbee

09/07/2014, 03:37 PM

Do I need to blackout the sump

firemountain

09/07/2014, 07:23 PM

Nutrients for cyano are primarily light, carbon, and water. Depriving it of nutrients is a pretty forlorn hope---except---light. It needs it far more than your corals or fish---in even 24 hours of dark, there will be some cyano dieoff.

Would the addition of a bag of Chemipure or a floss/carbon filter pad to a new tank (2 months) aid in the growth of cyano, that was not initially present. While I anticipated an algae outbreak, it just seems odd that it came out of no where.

Water parameters are in order, RODI water used, LED lighting for 8 hours on lowest intensity with a Kessil, plenty of water flow with 2 power heads, Filter sock in place, RO bh1000 HOB skimmer, and only a small CUC with inverts only. Sand and rock work is medium brown...no red algae.

Any thoughts??

neilhigbee

09/08/2014, 02:55 AM

Hi sk8r

Have just gone the lights out for 3 days route, could you please tell me if this is OK, reason I have done it like this'd is we have windows at both ends of the living room where tank is.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/da7e864b98cc3b46aa8e8172ca6355b0.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/f2b84449b26aa8840c8bbf836b5f1935.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/c71ed82572210cbdbf3cc685948b00aa.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/26b0db1176e4fbdfd7b4fe594c4980aa.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/0e3794ece35ded105556b1151a258717.jpg

Hope everything will be OK, have both fish, corals and inverts in tank

Corals arer

Pulsing Xenia
Green star polyps
Various ZOA's
Various leathers
Mushrooms
Candy cane

Bubble tip nem

Inverts are

Snails
Hermits various
Mithrax crabs
Sea hare
Tuxedo urchin

Please advise

Thanks neil

neilhigbee

09/08/2014, 01:11 PM

Has my post been deleted

Dan_P

09/10/2014, 03:37 AM

Do you have after pictures?

I recently showed that lights out may not kill red slime but it certainly disrupt the mat.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2440077

Sk8r

09/10/2014, 09:11 AM

You have to do the lights-out thing once a month for several months, plus have your skimmer working well to try to export the die-off.

VicZA

09/25/2014, 12:05 PM

when doing the lights-out scenario, do you keep feeding the fish ? Do you maintain/increase/decrease flow ?

Leoprime

09/27/2014, 11:16 AM

I have a brown fuzzy stuff that i thought was dinos , i did the lights out for 3 days and its still there, oxygen bubbles starting again , but my turbo snails have been chewing on it for 3 weeks and no casualties, so any ideas ? Once i scrub rock it turns from rust powder stuff to what looks like hair algae. Really weird. I will try to post pick when i get home from work.

Leoprime

09/27/2014, 11:20 AM

Sk8r

09/27/2014, 12:26 PM

Weird. If a turkey baster puff alone won't blow most of it off, it's not cyano. It COULD be a combo of cyano with other algae.

Leoprime

09/27/2014, 01:32 PM

Sweet i love a challenge lol... So should i be hitting craigslist in search of a microscope to look for the tale of dinos? It comes off but the rock is stained brown, i can remove rock and scrub in rodi water good for a couple weeks then right back on the rock. Really weird.:hmm5:

Sk8r

09/27/2014, 02:39 PM

Tank rock tends to go brown...or grey; or pink. It rarely stays pristine white. But dinos are another matter.
Here's a thread with some pertinent info. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1620464

Leoprime

09/27/2014, 04:32 PM

Thank you very much for your help .sometimes pulling my hair out seems like the only option. Nevertheless this is by far the coolest thing i have ever done.

Sk8r

09/27/2014, 10:43 PM

m0nkie

10/01/2014, 06:56 PM

Let me add---for those of you doing the 3-day dark, do it with room ambient light, not blacking your tank out totally. Light from windows with blinds closed or curtains drawn is quite ok. This way your fish will stay awake, eat, and those that sleep on or in the sand will be awake enough to move should snails move in on them.

oh man good thing I read this..

started my first day of the 3-days lights out. my room is pretty dark. I have a black curtain that blocks almost 100% of the light.. I guess the tank got no light at all. when I got home just now, every coral was closed and none of the fish came out to eat. now that I turned on the room light, some zoas are opening and the fish are out.