Help with acros PE please.

[Osteopth]

Parameters...
Total water volume: 240 gal display, 300 gal total

parameters:
CA 460
ALK 10.5
PO4 0.12, down from 0.63, trying to get below 0.04
N03 0
Salinity 1.026
pH 8.2-8.3
Temp 78
MAG 1280

lighting
2 x 400 watt Radiums for 6 hrs daily, 2 x 54w t5 actinics

Filtration method
Algae scrubber with remote DSB, GFO in reactor, carbon in sock, refugium

Dosing
Kalk in RO/DI ATO, Two-part 120ml/day, mag, strontium

test kits
Hanna checkers for PO4, Salifert for MG, API for N03...

flow
Vortech MP40w ES (2 on left wall, 1 on right wall) Vortech MP10w ES (2 on back wall), Reeflo Dart return.

Problem:
I recently got rid of my softies and most of my LPS, and started with SPS. I set up a reefkeeper elite to keek my temp stable at 78 degrees and adjusted my light schedule so my pH varies about 0.5. I use dosing pumps for C, A, M and S. I lost a few early colonies when I raised my Alk too quickly(and two colonies from that time have slowly withered from the base up despite fragging some of the good branches. ). Now I have about 20 frags that came from a stable tank. I lost one because it was in a hole where one of my old aggressive corals grew back around it. The new corals almost all have darkened to nice deep colors in my tank and are slowly encrusting. (I recently added the GFO after getting my Hanna checker that showed PO4 of 0.63)

My bird nests have great polyp extension, but I have almost no PE from my acros. I have read that happy corals don't always have PE, but I'd like to see those pretty polyps.

Should I lengthen my light time because my corals are dark? Or should I shorten it to make the corals hungrier?

Do you think the polyps will come out more if I get my PO4 down below 0.04?

Would iodine help? What type? How much?

I just revisited the tank that I got my frags from. My colors are all darker than the colonies they came from. I like the colors in my tank better. He runs 14.5K bulbs. But all of his have good PE.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance, Tim.

[t4zalews]

Whats your fish list look like?

Did he run 250w as opposed to 400w?

I assume the darkening of the corals is due to more lighting in your tank. Do your corals polyp out at night time?

[jarrett shark]

Everything seems fine except Mag...raise to 1350
Maybe to much flow.....
I would go to 7hrs a day on lighting
Do you have any fish that pic? Like Angels??

[Osteopth]

I have 4 yellow tangs, a sailfin tang, pair of flame angels (I've watched them for months, no nipping of corals that i could see. Put a new coral in last night, had PE, no nipping), pair of scooter blennys, green chromis, yellowtail blue damsel, cardinal, aptaisia eating filefish (no nipping), two pink-spot gobies, two clowns.

he runs 250's with more t5 supplementation.

The birdsnests have PE all day/night. Acros/Milliporas don't show PE even at night. New Corals (x3) had great PE within an hour of placing in tank last night.

I was thinking possibly too much flow, didn't really know that was possible. MP40's create a wave effect with little direct flow/blasting.

So two replies, one says not enough light time, the other says too much light. ???

[Osteopth]

I have the Radiums on Lumatek electronic ballasts. I didn't realize that that would affect the par. do you think it's enough in a 24 inch tank or should i change bulbs or ballasts? Should I go to 7-8 hours? Heat is not a problem this time of year - i either run my lights or my heaters.

[t4zalews]

I'd check out the new coral more as the days progress. Birdsnest will always have polyp extension, nippers never really tend to nip them. Flow may be an issue...if there is more flow than they are used to this could definitly be a reason. Mag does seem low...but in my experience, wouldnt really influence polyp extension. If anything, I'd say the alk is a little high. In the acceptable range, but for SPS ive always found 8-9 to be the best range. Not saying other ranges dont have good success. I have crazy good polyp extension right now and have been following my advice.

[James983]

Do you think the polyps will come out more if I get my PO4 down below 0.04?



.04 PO4 is a good number

and throw in stable ALK

[acroholicreefer]

I just revisited the tank that I got my frags from. My colors are all darker than the colonies they came from. I like the colors in my tank better. He runs 14.5K bulbs. But all of his have good PE.



That statement describes a lot of stuff to me. Don't get fooled by polyp extension, but PE, growth structure, and colors, can tell you several things.

How long has your system been setup and exactly how long have you had the sps frags? I think the only thing you need to do is nothing. Let them get adjusted to your system and growing into the flow that you have as well. Then they can easily eat off of the water column and you should see more polyp extension, assuming everything else stays in line.

If anything, I'd say the alk is a little high. In the acceptable range, but for SPS ive always found 8-9 to be the best range. Not saying other ranges dont have good success.

I agree that the alk might be slightly higher than the ideal range. If you don't see progression in the next week, try to lower your alk levels down slightly but I don't think that is your problem with polyp extension.

[Toddrtrex]

Have you checked for PE late at night? Is there is PE when the fish are "sleeping", it is pretty safe to assume that it is either the flames or the file fish.

[Osteopth]

I'm often up late, never noticed any PE late at night. I'm letting my Alk fall to 8-9 slooowly. PO4 is stable at 0.12, i'll check the discharge from the GFO again Tuesday.

[BuckeyeTodd]

po4 of .12 is still too high...if these corals were in the tank when po4 was above .5, these corals just need clean water and stability. If po4 was stripped rapidly it could have shocked the corals too. My advice would be get the water clean, keep everything stable and give it a month or so. I think once you get some clean stable water you should be on your way.

[Osteopth]

I just ordered 2 of the large reactors from BRS for ROX 0.8 carbon and high capacity GFO. I'll see if I can overpower those phosphates.

[Dog boy Dave]

High nutrient tanks tend to have less polyp extension than the tanks that are driven low in nutrients. In addition, flame angels are notorius coral nippers. Even if you dont see it they do it. However, even in high nutrient tanks full of nippers, you will see extension at night if the corals are healthy. As Todd and Buckeye stated, if you dont see polyp extension at night then you should worry. You do indeed have a water quality problem.

[Hookup]

sounds to me like phosphate is the issue here, possibly placement.

That said, it was posted above... other than lowering your phosphate do nothing.. ;)

The only things that happen fast in an SPS tank are bad things... at least that's been my experience.

[James983]

I just ordered 2 of the large reactors from BRS for ROX 0.8 carbon and high capacity GFO. I'll see if I can overpower those phosphates.

I used a product called PO4x4 with great results. You will use much less than traditional GFO.

Remember you don't want to strip the water too quickly though.

[Osteopth]

What is too fast with PO4? I'm down to 0.12 over weeks. I just changed my GFO. Checked the effluent and it was 0.06. Shouldn't it be zero?

[BuckeyeTodd]

Ideally yes effluent should be zero. If the rest of the tank is too high it might not get there though, is the tank still .12? If the tank is still that, I'd expect the effluent to be zero or .03 at most.

Possibly, I'm guessing here, if you ran the gfo for a day or two it may already be saturated. I wouldn't have thought this would have happened, but its the only guess I've got.

[meshwheel]

Osteopoth,
I will would like to chime in here:
1. You will find that SPS require a few notches up in water quality compared to softie tanks!
2. 0.06 for Phosphates is MAX I have found. Up to 0.03 I have found for my tank is ok. However, I have kept it at zero lately with no GFO. Just 5 gallons a week water change on a 34 gallon tank. Many do have to run GFO. It's a great tool when needed and works very well!
3. I am not a big fan of algae scrubbers for SPS tanks. If the balance is correct with the tank, they are not needed. They yellow the water and clarity quite a bit. You will need to run a small amount of carbon to clear the water of tanins. More so with a scrubber type of system.
4. Check your sand bed/beds for debris. If you mix up a section and debris is floating everywhere start getting it cleaned up. You can remove parts at a time or clean parts at a time.
Sps is indeed a whole different animal.

[meshwheel]

Osteopth,
One other thing too. Not enough light I have found will effect polyp extension. Not sure how close your halides are to the water. Thats a big tank and I would think with only two 400 watters they should be at least running 8-9 hours. Just my opinion. Are they pendants? How close are they to the water?

[Osteopth]

Thanks for the input!

BuckeyeTodd,
I checked the effluent about 10 minutes after changing the GFO. The tank was still at 0.12 when I did that.

Meshwheel,
I only see a little dust when I move the sand, settles quickly. I have a large clean up crew that seems to do a great job.

So you only use water changes and live rock? how many fish do you have? My wife likes the fish more than the corals.

I'm hoping the new BRS reactors will give me the PO4 numbers I need, I know I need to get that down.

The lights are in a 6 foot fixture. I don't want to run the middle light because of the crossbrace on my acrylic tank. They have good coverage over my corals and I put corals needing less light of to the sides.

[smokenax]

what are your nitrates like? I would check those too.

[meshwheel]

Osteopth,
I would say increase your lighting for starters. How high above the water is your fixture? You need to get the water quality dialed in, then you can work on the lights and see color changes when increasing intensity. Seems to me your not giving them enough light. However your Phosphate levels are way too high!
SPS corals are very sensitive and parameters need to be correct as well as lighting. It's a challenge for sure.

[Osteopth]

I may have found my problem. My LFS told me that the Red Sea Magnesium Test was done when you saw a color change. So I've been dosing to the wrong results. I didn't feel comfortable with the lack of a solid end point, so I finally watched the you tube video from Red Sea. This time I waited for the first hint of blue and found my mag to be almost 2000!!!! Gonna do a 50% water change tomorrow and see where that gets me unless someone tells me I should do less.

[meshwheel]

I would let it drop on it's own. Not sure what negative effects it would have on your corals. Never had that happen to me before. Unless the replacement water for the water change is perfect in temp, salinity, kh ect. I would just monitor it.
You never said how close your lights where to the water?

[Osteopth]

I keep forgetting to measure the lights, sorry. I think about 5-6 inches. I'll check when I'm home after church today.

So I'll just do 10% changes until it's down, right? Could it be the problem?

[meshwheel]

Mag is the one of if not the quickest consumed element in my tank it seems like! I have to add quite a bit daily to keep it at 1300. I would say in 5 days or so you would see a significant drop!

[meshwheel]

I doubt thats the problem. Elevated Phosphate levels will stop growth or slow it in a real hurry. I Would work with your sand beds. Make sure they are spiffy clean. And it's hard to do. I run a 1/2 inch bed in my tank if that thick! Too hard to keep it clean.

[Osteopth]

8 inches above the water. Oriented lengthwise in the middle of the cutouts. Like I said, I have a third light in the fixture. I've thought about putting a 150 in it but I'm concerned about my acrylic crossbrace.

Btw, my nitrates are undetectable by API. I'm getting a Red Sea Pro on Tuesday.

[meshwheel]

I run a ULNS in my tank. Here's what my parameters are kept at. Yours will differ and you can run a higher alk. level if your not running ULNS

1. Alk 7-8
2. Cal. 4-420
3. Mag. 1290-1350
4. Nitrates- 0 or very close to it
5. phosphates 0.02 w/ Hanna Checker
I feed 2-3 times a day. I dose Vodka and this has taken my nitrates and phosphates down to near zero and allows me to feed more. Works great!

[Osteopth]

Runiing the larger reactors for GFO and 0.8 carbon. PO4 0.08 on Wed, 0.06 Thurs, 0.10 today. Gonna check again tomorrow, then check effluent and change GFO if needed. I think it's leaching from the rock. Mag is 1600 today. Another water change tomorrow. Still no PE but I feel like it's going in the right direction.

Other parameters:
Alk 8.1
Ca 460
Nitrates 0
Strontium 8
Iron low - dosed
Iodine Good
Potassium Low - dosed

Thanks again for all the help. I appreciate any other suggestions and I'll let you know if anything changes.

[Osteopth]

I have PE!!!!!!! It's just a start but my red planet just started extending it's polyps a little bit. All the rest are encrusting more. Thanks for all your help.

[Aqualund]

I have read somewhere that elevated levels of magnesium can be harmful to invertebrates...dont have a link though. I had a similar problem a few weeks ago and just did 20% water changes daily with RO/DI water and Reef Crystals until my water paramaters were in line for an SPS tank and things are fine now, which is im sure where you're at as well :)

[pimp2daizzo]

Aqualund that's what I was about to say....beside gfo or any phosphate media the best thing to do is water changes are the only way to get phosphate out. And what kinda foods are you feeding your tank?
And just wanting to know how fast is your alk and mag falling...

[funkejj]

Runiing the larger reactors for GFO and 0.8 carbon. PO4 0.08 on Wed, 0.06 Thurs, 0.10 today. Gonna check again tomorrow, then check effluent and change GFO if needed. I think it's leaching from the rock. Mag is 1600 today. Another water change tomorrow. Still no PE but I feel like it's going in the right direction.

Other parameters:
Alk 8.1
Ca 460
Nitrates 0
Strontium 8
Iron low - dosed
Iodine Good
Potassium Low - dosed

Thanks again for all the help. I appreciate any other suggestions and I'll let you know if anything changes.

Are you using the hanah meter? I have found that I really need to wipe down the vials to get a good true reading. One finger print skews it. I will run the test the 3 times with the same vials to make sure they are all close readings.