Cooking Dry Rock - Vinegar Question

[chatyak]

Picked up new dry rock for a new look :bounce3:

I had it in a rubbermaid bin for a few days with a water/vinegar mix. After that, I let each piece soak in 100% vinegar for about 5-10 minutes. They were bubbling etc.... Now I have had the rocks soaking in 100% RO/DI water for a week with a powerhead.

Just wanted to ask:

1) If most phosphates should be gone from rock (eco-rock).

2) If vinegar should be gone from rock.


Safe to start aquascaping?


Will be removing about 1/3 to 1/2 of live rock from system and replacing with this, then waiting a few weeks and doing the other side of tank. I also run a RDSB with live rock in there.

[anderson0196]

You don't need to worry about the vinegar if you give them a good rinse.

As for phos....only way to know is to test. Some will leach longer/more than others...I don't have any experience with this specific rock.

[chatyak]

I was hoping not to buy a test kit to only test the dry rock once. In the tank it's easier - if you have algae etc... you have phosphates :) I've heard people saying no phosphates after a vinegar rinse, but I understand when you say a test-confirmation is only true way to know..

[anderson0196]

I soaked my dry rock in RODI for a week with large water changes daily.... At that point I had no phos.

I had done my rockscape prior to soaking so I didn't use any vinegar for fear it would eat away too much rock

[chatyak]

I soaked my dry rock in RODI for a week with large water changes daily.... At that point I had no phos.

I had done my rockscape prior to soaking so I didn't use any vinegar for fear it would eat away too much rock

It didn't eat much away at all, just a thin sliver of film if that. Ok, good to know.

[bertoni]

I agree that a rinse is all that's needed. The treatment might have removed a contaminated surface layer, but the rock still might have a significant amount of phosphate. If you're worried, you could try a RO/DI bath, and check the phosphate level after a soak.

[chatyak]

I agree that a rinse is all that's needed. The treatment might have removed a contaminated surface layer, but the rock still might have a significant amount of phosphate. If you're worried, you could try a RO/DI bath, and check the phosphate level after a soak.

I have had it in ro/di for over a week, since the first week of vinegar. I didn't want to, but I ended up buying the hanna phosphate meter kit.

[chatyak]

Are you able to test for phosphates with RO/DI water? Or must it be saltwater?

[anderson0196]

You can test either

[bertoni]

It depends on the kit, but most will work for salt or fresh water. The Hanna Phosphorus ULR is the only one of which I'm aware that isn't rated for fresh water.

[anderson0196]

I didn't know that about the Checker...Thanks

[bertoni]

You're welcome! I was surprised by the news that it wasn't rated for fresh water. I'm not sure what the issue is.

[chatyak]

It depends on the kit, but most will work for salt or fresh water. The Hanna Phosphorus ULR is the only one of which I'm aware that isn't rated for fresh water.

Is that the same kit from BRS? I don't see anything mentioned about ULR on it. It says Phosphate on it, unless I am confusing something here.

[anderson0196]

The phosphorus tests at lower levels (ppb) whereas the phosphate tests in ppm.

I think that BRS offers both.

[bertoni]

Hanna offers three colorimeters for phosphorus and phosphate measurement. There's a Phosphorus ULR Checker that reads in ppb, as stated. It's a tad more accurate at the low end, if the product description is accurate. That's the one that Hanna doesn't rate for saltwater usage, at least according to one support call. Here's a link:

http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?id=037006&ProdCode=HI%20736

[chatyak]

I am on my third 20 gallon bin of clean ro/di and the water is STILL cloudy with the rocks in it. This is crazy. First a vinegar/water bath - then straight vinegar - then then 20 gallon bin of ro/di with water changed out 3 times - and I just checked on the rocks and the water is so cloudy, you can barely see down in the bin.

Should I wait until the water stays perfectly clear?

I also contacted Hanna - they told me the product at BRS works with RO/DI.

[anderson0196]

I would....if it's cloudy in the bin it will be cloudy in your DT

[Telaverus]

I am on my third 20 gallon bin of clean ro/di and the water is STILL cloudy with the rocks in it. This is crazy. First a vinegar/water bath - then straight vinegar - then then 20 gallon bin of ro/di with water changed out 3 times - and I just checked on the rocks and the water is so cloudy, you can barely see down in the bin.

Should I wait until the water stays perfectly clear?

I also contacted Hanna - they told me the product at BRS works with RO/DI.

I just did similar to you with 40lbs of dry rock. I kept changing the ro/di until it was clear. I think it took about 3 full water changes over about a weeks time.

I was starting to think it wasn't going to clear up but it did. I had a heater going at 80F and a pump for circulation. Come to think of it, I emptied the bucket and cleaned all the crap out each time. Basically switching between two buckets/bins.

[chatyak]

That's what I have - though no heater. I have a big koralia pump in there, just with Ro/DI water. Everytime I change the water - I empty the rocks from the bin - do a dunk and swish - clean out the bottom of the bin, and then put the rocks back in and fill with water.

[Telaverus]

That's what I have - though no heater. I have a big koralia pump in there, just with Ro/DI water. Everytime I change the water - I empty the rocks from the bin - do a dunk and swish - clean out the bottom of the bin, and then put the rocks back in and fill with water.

You should be almost there. I did the last change, went back in a couple of days and was surprised it was clear. Yours may be taking a little longer as it appears that you were a little more aggresive with the vinegar than me.

One thing I would do is dry brush the rock once it's dried out again before you aquascape. I used a little more epoxy than needed as a result of the surface being a little loose in some spots.

[chatyak]

You should be almost there. I did the last change, went back in a couple of days and was surprised it was clear. Yours may be taking a little longer as it appears that you were a little more aggresive with the vinegar than me.

One thing I would do is dry brush the rock once it's dried out again before you aquascape. I used a little more epoxy than needed as a result of the surface being a little loose in some spots.

I am on my 4th water bin change now.... dunk/swish/scrape etc... hands are actually bloody from holding the rock :headwally: Will see how clear it is after another couple days of rinsing....

[Telaverus]

I am on my 4th water bin change now.... dunk/swish/scrape etc... hands are actually bloody from holding the rock :headwally: Will see how clear it is after another couple days of rinsing....

I would not scrape anymore. Just rinse. I think you could scrape this stuff forever and forever have cloudy water.

[bertoni]

I'd use gloves. Bleeding hands sounds like an infection risk to me.

[Telaverus]

Chatyak, I just came across this in another thread...

RO water threw me a bit. There is a reason to use salt water .Second thought after a cup of coffee.
The rock will start to dissolve at ph below7.7 ,as is the case with ro water. The rock is primarily calcium carbonate. These crystals contain some phosphate bound in them as PO4 binds to carbonate in lieu of calcium in some of them when the rock is made by calcifying organisms.This is why it's harmful to them in excess. So dissolving the rock releases PO4 that wouldn't otherwise leach as these crystals dissolve.
The lanthanum in higher ph water will just pull more loosely bound PO4(probably mostly HPO4 and H2PO4 which have lower negative charges than PO4) from the surface which is what leaches in a reef tank . The aim is to remove the surface stuff without releasing the embedded PO4. SO, I'd definitely use the salt water as noted in post #10 to avoid melting the rock .

Bring your ph up, your water will always be cloudy if you are disolving your rock. My last bucket that ended up clear actually had about a cup of salt in 10 gallons of RO, I just threw it in there instead of down the drain as I had left it in my measuring cup overnight, this was probably just enough to bring my ph up so that I wasn't disolving my rock anymore.

[bertoni]

That quote isn't particularly accurate. A very small amount of live rock will dissolve in RO/DI water, but not enough to detect. The pH will then rise substantially.

[chatyak]

I would not scrape anymore. Just rinse. I think you could scrape this stuff forever and forever have cloudy water.

Sorry I 'm not sure why I wrote scrape - I meant just using your finger to remove any loose debris after swishing it around - I think that's what removed some of the skin on my finger - I didn't think infection could be a risk with dry rock in RO/DI.

[chatyak]

Chatyak, I just came across this in another thread...



Bring your ph up, your water will always be cloudy if you are disolving your rock. My last bucket that ended up clear actually had about a cup of salt in 10 gallons of RO, I just threw it in there instead of down the drain as I had left it in my measuring cup overnight, this was probably just enough to bring my ph up so that I wasn't disolving my rock anymore.


I'm a bit confused on this and what bertoni is saying - are you saying that by soaking rock in ro/di - the rock itself will always dissolve, thus leaving cloudy water - even if the rock is clean? I have never come across this before.

By mixing the rock in saltwater then - this won't happen? I'm running a big powerhead (koralia 8 i think) in a 20 gallon brute bin at the moment with ro/di....

[chatyak]

That quote isn't particularly accurate. A very small amount of live rock will dissolve in RO/DI water, but not enough to detect. The pH will then rise substantially.

You are saying that the rock will not dissolve then and if it does, only a small amount - then that dissolved rock amount will raise the ph anyways?


Adding salt mix raises ph.. I guess that is true isn't it - didn't even think of it.

[chatyak]

On a side note - when coraline algae covers the rock - doesn't it cover the bacteria surface needed for denitrification? Never thought about it.

[Telaverus]

That quote isn't particularly accurate. A very small amount of live rock will dissolve in RO/DI water, but not enough to detect. The pH will then rise substantially.

Yeh, there is a lot more that I was thinking that was left out. Having just gone through the same process as Chatyak, I'm thinking he is looking for the same thing I was, and that's crystal clear water with rocks in it. Eliminating all the variables that cause cloudy water was on my mind more so than disolving rock.

Also, this rock is very "sandy" if you will, it has a lot of fine particles, it's almost like it was made with sand and glue at the surface. Perhaps a result of some pretreatment with muriatic acid by the suplier? Chatyak, did you order this stuff from Go R*** in Quebec?

Bertoni, I have much respect for you, I enjoy following your responses, I've learned much from you.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Calcium carbonate does dissolve in pure fresh water. But only a little dissolves before the pH rises and stops further dissolution. The water won't become cloudy due to dissolving calcium carbonate, since that is clear.

Cloudiness would be particulates of some sort, either some undissolved calcium carbonate, or aggregated organic matter, or even bacteria. :)

[tmz]

I don't remember the context of the quote but the rock will dissolve in low ph water. How much obviously depends on the volume of water and it's it's ph , the volume of rock and time.. I once put a seashell in a freshwater tank and couldn't figure out why the tank was cloudy week after week no matter how much water I changed.

[Telaverus]

I'm in over my head :hmm3:

Tom, you're on my list of mentors, thanks to people like you, Randy and Bertoni this hobby is doable and more affordable :thumbsup:

[tmz]

Thanks Televarus,
Randy has the keys to reef chemistry; no doubt about it. When in doubt I'd listen to him. I pitch in where I can.

[zero26]

I have 50 lbs of Marco Rock, Key Largo dry rock soaking in a tote of RO/DI water, since Monday. All I did was scrub and rinse with tap water. For me the water was never cloudy and is currently clear.

[tmz]

I think if the water gets cloudy it could be an indirect result of dissolving calcium carbonate . Every time the water is changed more low ph fresh water is added.
Perhaps as some crystals dissolve particles of undissolved calcium carbonate break loose and get into the water column and cloud it. It could also be organics or bacteria as noted especially with vinegar in use.

Personally, I prefer to cure dry rock in salt water to limit even small amounts of dissolution and to provide a marine environment to give nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria a headstart. I don't change the water but add some lanthanum chloride to keep the curing water near 0 PO4 if necessary.

[zero26]

Tmz,

What is lanthanum chloride?

I think I am gonna try to cure this dry rock with live rock to seed it. Since there is no rush to add this rock to my system I am going to try and cure this for months, maybe even adding a light to it to start some coralline growth.

I just don't want to introduce any P04 to my tank and fuel any algae growth. Already been down that road and do not plan on going down it again.

Thoughts?

[chatyak]

Calcium carbonate does dissolve in pure fresh water. But only a little dissolves before the pH rises and stops further dissolution. The water won't become cloudy due to dissolving calcium carbonate, since that is clear.

Cloudiness would be particulates of some sort, either some undissolved calcium carbonate, or aggregated organic matter, or even bacteria. :)

Wouldn't the ph drop again though? Ex) Rock dissolves - ph rises.... after time ph drops - rock dissolves - ph rises etc...

I don't see how much more can come off the rock honestly. I have used vinegar and water, 100% vinegar, and tons of dunks / swishes / and 4 times cleaning out the brute bin with fresh ro/di water - and it was clean dry rock to begin with.


I'm going to use saltwater and see how cloudy it gets.

[chatyak]

I think if the water gets cloudy it could be an indirect result of dissolving calcium carbonate . Every time the water is changed more low ph fresh water is added.
Perhaps as some crystals dissolve particles of undissolved calcium carbonate break loose and get into the water column and cloud it. It could also be organics or bacteria as noted especially with vinegar in use.

Personally, I prefer to cure dry rock in salt water to limit even small amounts of dissolution and to provide a marine environment to give nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria a headstart. I don't change the water but add some lanthanum chloride to keep the curing water near 0 PO4 if necessary.



Congrats on your TOTM - I am just over the "bridge" from you :spin2:

I will be adding salwater today - it is "clear" from the mixing bin - so we'll see how clear it stays with the rocks...


I could also measure the PH of the ro/di with my apex ph probe.... dipping it in ro/di for a few minutes shouldn't effect the probe correct?

[chatyak]

Cloudiness would be particulates of some sort, either some undissolved calcium carbonate, or aggregated organic matter, or even bacteria. :)

Are you saying then, that technically I can keep adding/changing RO-DI water to the brute bin, and it SHOULD be clear at some point?

[chatyak]

Yeh, there is a lot more that I was thinking that was left out. Having just gone through the same process as Chatyak, I'm thinking he is looking for the same thing I was, and that's crystal clear water with rocks in it. Eliminating all the variables that cause cloudy water was on my mind more so than disolving rock.

Also, this rock is very "sandy" if you will, it has a lot of fine particles, it's almost like it was made with sand and glue at the surface. Perhaps a result of some pretreatment with muriatic acid by the suplier? Chatyak, did you order this stuff from Go R*** in Quebec?

Bertoni, I have much respect for you, I enjoy following your responses, I've learned much from you.

Not from Quebec, no. I got mine through BRS - the "eco" rock.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you saying then, that technically I can keep adding/changing RO-DI water to the brute bin, and it SHOULD be clear at some point?

Well, that's probably true, but if the rock is crumbling for some reason, it may take a long time. :)

[chatyak]

Are you saying then, that technically I can keep adding/changing RO-DI water to the brute bin, and it SHOULD be clear at some point?

Well, that's probably true, but if the rock is crumbling for some reason, it may take a long time. :)

What would be your plan of action?

I was hoping to get it clean soaked and epoxied within a month's time.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you rub the rock surface with your had, does it seem crumbly, releasing powder?

[chatyak]

If you rub the rock surface with your had, does it seem crumbly, releasing powder?

No. Very little to none - I rubbed and cleaned it so much that the skin on the tips of my fingers is nearly gone and it hurts to touch or firmly grab anything - literally my fingers started bleeding :lolspin:

Everytime I took the rock out of the brute bin, the bottom of the bin would have sand and rock bits in it and I would wedge my finger into all the parts of the rock using a scraping motion - poking at any loose debris and crumbling it/dunking in a pail with clean ro/di - so if there is any left - it would be very little - unless of course it keeps dissolving in ro/di.

I have saltwater ready to put into the bin if that seems okay. I also would like to seed it before I put it into the main display, however I have to epoxy it first.... so I will put the finished structure into the brute bin and let that seed - then simply place into the display tank after 2-3 weeks - and the needed bacteria should be on the rock's surface correct?

It is my understanding that seeding the rock is similar to seeding a sponge for QT - there is no ammonia cycle that takes place - it is simply a transfer of beneficial bacteria from one rock surface to another (if I placed a rock from my tank, say my remote deep sand bed brute bin - I have rocks in there - and put one of those rocks into the dry rock seed bin).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd just give it a final rinse in flowing water and move on. :)

[chatyak]

I'd just give it a final rinse in flowing water and move on. :)

So seeding it is a waste of time? Sorry but I'm not as adapt to chemical-ness as you are :bounce1:

I will be swapping out a large portion of the rock in my tank - so I'd like to keep it bacteria friendly for the most part.

1) Can you confirm that adding the dry rock to the tank will simply allow it to be covered with the good bacteria - there won't be any ammonia spike on the new rock because there is no cycle - since the tank is already cycled?

2) If I however, added food to the brute bin - this would cause an ammonia cycle in the dry rock bin.

3) If I added LR to the dry rock bin, it would seed the new rock over a period of a few weeks - the same as putting it in the main display -except it would be ready right away to use - say after 3 weeks?

I will test the bin for phosphates - but after that I will get the rocks ready to be epoxied then - my concerns are just what to do with it after epoxying - either seed it in the bin or place in display.

[bertoni]

Since the rock should be free of organics, it's safe to add it to a tank as is. If you need the rock to do filtration when added, I'd suggest putting it into the Brute bin and letting it cure with a heater and a pump and a bit of food now and then.

[tmz]

Congrats on your TOTM - I am just over the "bridge" from you

Thankyou, nieghbor. Shoot me a pm when you come over next and maybe we can get together.

[tmz]

Wouldn't the ph drop again though? Ex) Rock dissolves - ph rises.... after time ph drops - rock dissolves - ph rises etc...

It might drop some from CO2 entering from the air but not likely to the low level of the ro water or low enough to dissolve more rock. Changing the water will drop it again though until a small amount dissolves and raises the ph again. The vinegar drops teh ph too.

[tmz]

Since the rock should be free of organics, it's safe to add it to a tank as is. If you need the rock to do filtration when added, I'd suggest putting it into the Brute bin and letting it cure with a heater and a pump and a bit of food now and then.
+1 after you do your epoxy work ,obviously. It will need to cycle ammonia any way you seed it .

[chatyak]

+1 after you do your epoxy work ,obviously. It will need to cycle ammonia any way you seed it .

I was not aware that clean dry rock had to cycle ammonia unless you start a cycle with it - such as adding food in the bin etc... to kickstart the nitrate cycle.

I thought by placing the clean rock into the display - the beneficial bacteria simply multiplied onto the new rock. You are saying then, that the dry rock will ammonia spike?

[tmz]

No that is not what I am saying.You said you wanted to get it ready to act as biofilter in your tank before putting it in and the method Jonathan suggested is a good one .
If it still had organics on it they would begin to decay when placed in salt water.

[chatyak]

No that is not what I am saying.You said you wanted to get it ready to act as biofilter in your tank before putting it in and the method Jonathan suggested is a good one .
If it still had organics on it they would begin to decay when placed in salt water.

Ahhh :lmao: Alright - just to clarify the different scenarios then:

1) If placed in tank as-is, the beneficial bacteria would simply multiply onto new rock in given time.

2) If cured in brute bin with food, heater, pump, etc.. - there will be the normal ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle.

3) Placing a piece of live rock from display into brute bin - is the same as placing the dry rock into the tank - it will seed the dry rock in given time (in the brute bin).

4) I could also move the LR from the display and put it in the sump - thereby leaving the current "working" rock in the sump, but at the same time having the new rock in the display portion.

:bounce2:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Placing a piece of live rock from display into brute bin - is the same as placing the dry rock into the tank - it will seed the dry rock in given time (in the brute bin)

If there is nothing organic in the water to give ammonia as it decays, dead rock sitting in that water will very slowly if ever develop the nitrogen cycle bacteria, even if appropriate bacteria are present elsewhere in the system.

[chatyak]

Placing a piece of live rock from display into brute bin - is the same as placing the dry rock into the tank - it will seed the dry rock in given time (in the brute bin)

If there is nothing organic in the water to give ammonia as it decays, dead rock sitting in that water will very slowly if ever develop the nitrogen cycle bacteria, even if appropriate bacteria are present elsewhere in the system.

Very interesting. So in theory - if you setup a brand new tank and ran the cycle with the shrimp - ammonia, etc... and then did nothing more after the cycle was "cured" - your rock would slowly lose the bacteria? Anotherwords, it is the constant addition of fish waste, food, etc... that keeps the bacteria alive?

On a side note - I tested for phosphates with Hanna's checker and the brute bin reads 0.00 ppm :fish1:

[Telaverus]

Has the water cleared up for you yet?

[chatyak]

So far it is clear - but it is saltwater.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting. So in theory - if you setup a brand new tank and ran the cycle with the shrimp - ammonia, etc... and then did nothing more after the cycle was "cured" - your rock would slowly lose the bacteria? Anotherwords, it is the constant addition of fish waste, food, etc... that keeps the bacteria alive?

Yes. :)

[chatyak]

Very interesting. So in theory - if you setup a brand new tank and ran the cycle with the shrimp - ammonia, etc... and then did nothing more after the cycle was "cured" - your rock would slowly lose the bacteria? Anotherwords, it is the constant addition of fish waste, food, etc... that keeps the bacteria alive?

Yes. :)

How would one run a coral-only tank or a coral QT then?

[tmz]

The same way with less but not no food.

[chatyak]

Very interesting indeed. I thought once the rock had been cured and in saltwater - that the bacteria remained.

How often do you recommend an addition of food to a coral only tank and if so, how much?

[tmz]

Depends on the number and type of corals( some rely more on food and less on photosynthesis but they all need some nitrogen, phosphorous and organic carbon) and your methods for exporting unused nutrients.. Just enough to keep them healthy without raising ammonia, nitrite, nitate ,and phospahte too high.

[chatyak]

Depends on the number and type of corals( some rely more on food and less on photosynthesis but they all need some nitrogen, phosphorous and organic carbon) and your methods for exporting unused nutrients.. Just enough to keep them healthy without raising ammonia, nitrite, nitate ,and phospahte too high.

Thanks Tom. Well I ask because I have setup a QT for corals/inverts together and wanted to be sure that if I am quarantining coral, I am not losing my bacteria required. It is a 10 gallon tank, with some sand in the bottom for nassarius snails etc...

Perhaps dropping a couple pellets in the tank once a week shall suffice for a couple frags?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That should be plenty. It is not just for bacteria, but the corals need nutrients. They cannot grow in water with no nitrogen or phosphorus. :)

[chatyak]

That should be plenty. It is not just for bacteria, but the corals need nutrients. They cannot grow in water with no nitrogen or phosphorus. :)

Is there a distinction between phosphorous and phosphate? I just tested for Phosphates with my hanna checker for the display tank and it came to 0.00 ppm ....

[bertoni]

Phosphorus is an element. Phosphate is one phosphorus atom combined with three oxygen atoms. Some organisms can take up phosphorus in forms other than phosphate.

Phosphate at measured zero can still leave plenty of phosphorus and even phosphate in the water column, due to the various forms of phosphorus and measuring limitations of hobbyist equipment.

[chatyak]

I saw this thread from years ago and wanted to revive it.

I have a new batch of rock I'm working on cleaning now. Right now it's in vinegar/RODI. I'm going to rinse and change to saltwater soon.

1) While I let the PO4 leach out of the rock in the brute bin - would it be helpful to add a bag of GFO to the brute bin?

2) Does coraline algae prevent PO4 from absorbing into the rock? (and vice versa.. leaching?)

[bertoni]

Some GFO would help, although it might get expensive. Lanthanum chloride is safe to use in a cleaning tub, and it'll be cheaper if there's much phosphate leaching.

I suspect that phosphate can still enter the calcium carbonate matrix if there's coralline algae growing. I don't think the organisms can exclude the phosphate during calcification.