Can anyone lend a helping hand?

[big cats]

Okay, so I have been tossing around the idea of getting a salt water aquarium..

I have heard MANY pros, cons, and mixed opinions about getting and maintaining one, and it kinda makes me feel like :headwally:

I figured I would just ask everyone here what their thoughts were and maybe share some experience and maybe some wisdom on the idea.

I'm not 100% sure of what exactly I want. Either a species tank or a reef tank.
I'm probably going to go reef. I like little shrimps and crustaceans and plants.

If you have any advice or tips for a beginner (and I mean BEGINNER)
please let me know. I really want to get into this type of thing, but I just DON'T want to make a lot of mistakes, because I know when you make mistakes it can be very discouraging.

Thanks everyone!
Jordan

[crobattt]

My only tip for you, do not buy on impulse. I'd research for a long time before you buy anything.

[aandfsoccr04]

I found myself in your same situation about 8 months ago. I started reading on this forum everyday for a few hours at a time to find out as much information as I could about the hobby so that I could know exactly what I want and how to go about executing it. I'd start by reading all the stickys at the top of this forum because they are filled with invaluable information. Join your local reef club as well.

[carpenterman23]

research!! Watch video's on youtube. Make a game plan of what you want. Then make sure your tank is big enough, and your lighting will handle what you want in your tank.

[fishgate]

Make an Excel spreadsheet with a line item for everything you are going to need. Put the price of what each costs and figure out what you need to spend. You can continue the spreadsheet for stocking and maintainence. This is an expensive hobby so best to get the financials in order from the start.

[Jocko]

Well just focus on the stuff that will be the same regardless of which direction you want to go. Coincidentally those are the things you need to get started!

In other words: tank, saltwater, rocks, sand?, heater, powerheads.

You're going to need those things no matter what. And you're going to need a "cycled," stable system. So you can work on those basics while continuing to research everything else.

The next big question after the above is lighting. But you can figure that out while you're putting the above together. The best way to save yourself some wasted money is to assume you're going to end up keeping high light SPS corals. Heh. You don't want to have "wimpy light buyers remorse" like so many of us have had in the past!

But anyhow, step 1: what size tank do you want? Or the way I like to think of it: what size tank can you fit in your house? :)

[Sugar Magnolia]

[welcome]

Read through the stickies at the top of this forum.

[big cats]

Thanks for all the input guys! I do know this is a very expensive hobby, and I have been researching for the last 3 months about everything, but I wanted to get people's ideas and experiences before I "took the dive" so to speak..

I spent most if yesterday and the early hours of today on here, and after much reading and looking at pictures, I have decided I want a tank with lots or corals, some shrimps, gobies, and maybe some smaller schooling fish. I definitely like the idea of microscaping.

I don't want the tank to be HUGE, I was thinking of getting a small bio cube to start with, just to learn how to play doctor and start with. Then once I feel confident in my abilities upgrade to like a 60g cube or something, and then use my smaller tank as a quarantine tank. Because I'm sure those are very important.

I know its best to have a larger water volume to make things more stable, so I was thinking about putting a decent sized sump on the tank to increase water volume and stability.

This is just my rough draft of what I would like to do. I work at a local pet store, and there is very minimal salt water supplies, and my boss has yet to teach me anything about salt water like he said he would 8 months ago..so I'm taking it into my own hands now.

Thanks again everyone!

[Bowels]

Also one thing I overlooked when I started is there are a TON of people not only on this forum but in others that are very helpful and also may be in your area and can help get you started... Also look in the swap sheets or in your local classifieds you may be able to get some of the equipment you need cheaper... boy I tell ya if i didnt have a friend showing me how it all works I would have been up the creek. lol There is ALOT involved in this hobby and there is even more if you want to worry about it lol I think you can get a good nano reef up and running for under $600 if you do it right

[carolgyrl1]

I would recommend a tank at least 30 -50 gallons. the smaller the tank, the easier it is for something to go wrong quickly.You have to be more on top of your water quality the smaller the tank. my 2 cents worth

[NyteGTI]

I just setup my !@ nano cube and after all is said & done it'll be about 500$ for EVERYTHING fish included. but I picked up my cube off CL and my LFS had a huge sale that same weekend so I planned it out right & picked up all the LR, LS, powerhead, heater, etc. just letting it cycle now. Im no expert but im here if you need examples of what's going on. I've been taking pictures & ill get the build up thread started once I've actually got the first inhyabitant in january once my uncure rock is cured & cycled.

just make sure you research EVERYTHING. it's like cutting wood, measure twice cut once. plan for what you can afford and leave yourself a pretty big amount of play in that total.

[Bowels]

Here is my build thread btw may give you an idea on how everything went, Im on month 6 or 7 now http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2066432&page=3

[Dean Stell]

I'm a fellow new saltwater person, so welcome. What I did was take things slow. Set up the tank with the live rock, powerheads, hang on back filter, heater and cheap light (and test kit)

That's enough that you can run a FOWLR set-up. Then you can add to it little by little. I started upgrading my lights with these LED strip lights, so you don't have to buy it all at once. Added a protein skimmer a week or so ago.

It really helps to lessen the financial impact if you smear the expenses across a few months.

[big cats]

does anyone think getting a bio cube to start would be a bad idea?
I have a few spare tanks laying around the house but they aren't much bigger than the bio cube that's in our store..It's only 8 gallons but I was going to rig some sort of sump to it to increase water volume.

[snuggle2me]

I love my 29 gal biocube HQI. Honestly its been just as hard to keep it maintained as my bigger tank. I am picky about how things look like the rockscape and microbubbles and my hands seem to be always in my tank tinkering with something. Finally got the rockscape like i want and i made a dyi media basket and fuge so hopefully i can keep my hands out and just do my regular water changes. I also will mention the cost of this hobby is crazy expensive. Sometimes i just want to get out of the hobby but i have too much invested to quit. Then there are times when my tanks look so beautiful that i remember thats why i started this hobby in the first place. Once your tank has aged i think alot of the little problems go away with experience. My bigger tank can pretty much go on auto pilot with just the weekly water changes and top offs.

[big cats]

okay. so then it's decided. I will start with a bio cube and do some corals and shrimps and gobies maybe? If those are compatible?

[Bredfan]

@Jocko is right. You can get your basics and get started while you research the more detailed (difficult?) part. You can't do anything without a tank, saltwater, rock, powerhead(s), a heater and a completed cycle. You can get that started while you do your homework, since it may well take a couple (2-3) months.

In the meantime...start your homework!

My experience starting up would definitely be classified as "discouraging." I started off making a huge mistake: I listened to the advice of a Local Fish Store owner and assumed he was steering me straight.

That assumption cost me some fish, a good but of money, a LOT of time, and a couple broken hearted little kids (first time a pet died for the tykes).

So - don't assume the guy at the pet store knows what the heck he is talking about. Get at least 3-4 sources of input for each question and then make your own best decision.

Overall... it is a fun hobby. I think it appeals to my pedantic nature - I sometimes sit on the floor with my face 2 inches from the aquarium staring at the crevices in the rocks. I'll do that until my legs fall asleep. :-) And it's always worth it.

Do know that you'll be dealing with your tank every day. Water testing, top offs, skimmer cup cleaning, feeding - these are all daily - or nearly daily - jobs. It is not a set it and forget it hobby. It's not a guitar in the corner that you pick up when you feel like it.

If you're going to do it, be prepared to give it attention every day. More in the beginning as you're learning.

Good luck!

[big cats]

I also have another question.

Will any of my freshwater experience help me out some with my salt water experience?
Similar to knowing how to swim before you sign up for swimming lessons?
Or is it two separate things?

[snuggle2me]

Depends on how dedicated you were to your freshwater tank. If it was a planted tank it was probably alot of work to maintain. I have a 55 gal fw tank and its pretty basic at the moment. Feed the fish, Clean the glass occasionally, top off regularly. Its pretty easy to maintain with minimal attention from me. Actually my 11 yr old takes care of it since its in his room.

Now keeping a sw tank is a completely different experience. Alot can go wrong with a sw tank.

There are alot of good information on rc and other sw sites. You can set up the tank and get it cycling while you read up on what it will require to maintain your tank.

The advice i can give you is to start off with ro/di water to prevent heartache down the road with hair algae. If you can get some good cycled rock with life in it you will have something to watch moving around while waiting out the cycle.

[big cats]

Where can I get RO/DI water from? or better yet where can I get a system? I have a 150g freshwater tank with two very large catfish in it (hence my username) I'm very meticulous when it comes to keeping it clean, and for the most part I don't really have to do much.

I know that keeping a sw tank is a lot more work. I work at a fish store, but unfortunately there isn't a large market for sw out here in BFE, so my knowledge is lacking in this area. I have plenty of books to read when it gets slow, which I take advantage of frequently, but I have a hard time learning from books. I need to talk to people and get feedback. If I ask the book a question, most of the time it usually doesn't answer.

I learn from experience, and by talking to people with experience. I'm a "hands on" kind of guy.


Would I be able to put corals, shrimps, and gobies in the same tank? it's going to be a rather small tank. 8g bio cube. I don't want a billion fish in there, maybe just one or two gobies, 3 shrimp, and plenty of corals. (I want the corals because they have awesome color, my girlfriend wants shrimps and gobies..lol)

[SushiGirl]

You may want to take a look at what kind and how many fish you're wanting. That's really what's going to determine tank size unless you're just absolutely limited on space. If you're absolutely limited on space, you'll have to limit yourself to the kinds/numbers of fish that will thrive in a small tank. You're not going to be able to keep multiple gobies (depending on max size) and schools of fish (unless they're absolutely tiny and STAY tiny) in a small tank.

Edit: I started typing before your last post. An 8 gallon tank isn't going to be able to handle but the tiniest goby/shrimp pair, and only one of each. There aren't too many gobies available that stay tiny that pair with shrimp. I could be wrong, but I think the smallest is the Yasha goby.

[big cats]

oh, well then i guess she will have to decide on whether it is gobies or shrimp.

gobies and shrimps are okay to put with corals right? They won't eat them?

[SushiGirl]

Depends on what kind of shrimp you get. Camel shrimp will eat corals. If you want a goby/shrimp pair you'll have to get a pistol shrimp, and it won't eat corals. If you just want a goby and some shrimp, just don't get camel shrimp! Gobies won't eat corals.

If you just want gobies and shrimp that aren't a commensal pair, you can look at clown gobies or redheaded gobies (they stay small). For a pair make sure they're a mated pair. For shrimp you can look at sexy shrimp (very small) and blue or gold banded coral shrimp (they stay very small).

Here's a link to nano fish (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15+2124), pay attention to the tank sizes given.

Here's a link to sexy shrimp (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+525+1135&pcatid=1135), blue banded coral shrimp (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+525+1134&pcatid=1134), and gold banded coral shrimp (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=497+525+2227&pcatid=2227).

I've had redheaded gobies before, and a blue banded coral shrimp. They were all model citizens.

[big cats]

Thanks for the links SushiGirl.

I'll definitely keep that list in mind when it comes time to stock the tank.
Now, I just remembered that when I bought my big fish tank (about a year ago) the people before had it set up as a salt water tank, and they had some live rock in there. It has been sitting dry ever since.

If I put that rock in my tank would it eventually go back to the way it was before? Or is it one of those things that once it's dead it's dead?

[snuggle2me]

I used to get my ro water from local lfs but last month i finally purchased a ro/di system from bulk reef supply for $199. It was so worth the investment and super easy to install. shipping was fast and i had a question so i emailed them and they responded right away. Now i do my water changes weekly and i keep top off water handy and have sw mixed ahead of time incase of emergencies.
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/75-gpd-ro-di-5-stage-plus-system.html

[snuggle2me]

You can reuse the rock. I would get it cycling in a plastic tub with a powerhead for circulation before putting it in your tank though. The previous life on it will probably cause a nitrate spike and cycling it in a tub will help keep it out of your new tank. You can reseed the dead rock with another piece of live rock and it will come back to life with critters eventually. There are a few articles on here about doing this properly.

[NyteGTI]

You can put the dry rock into a newly setup tank just give it a scrub to get any loose stuff off. That die off described above will get your cycle going


Sent from my DROIDX

[big cats]

Okay cool. Turns out I won't have to dump too much money into starting it up then. I just need a substrate, salt, and water.

Is RO water expensive? And I mean like expensive enough to just go ahead and buy my own system rather than buy water constantly. And will RO water work for fw tanks too?


And is it better to have a fine substrate or something larger and coarse?
And does the color matter? I have seen black and white, but just wasn't sure if it was a personal preference, or if it mattered.

[SushiGirl]

The rock in my current tank sat in my garage for 6 1/2 years. You can reuse it. What makes it "live" is the bacteria that colonizes it. When the bacteria is dead, the rock is n longer live, however it can be live again. I used all (75 lbs) of my old rock and added 15 lbs of new live rock, which seeded the old rock with bacteria and also coralline algae and other critters.

[SushiGirl]

Wow, folks are on top of it today. It didn't take me THAT long to type that at 90 wpm LOL.

[snuggle2me]

RO water isnt so much as expensive as it is a pain to go out and get it and have a constant supply on hand. I cant count how many times i have needed ro water late at night and had to find one of those machines that vends it since the lfs was closed at night. RO water at my local stores cost anywhere @ 75cents to $1. and If i need saltwater from lfs it would range from $1 - $2 a gal.

As for sand color its a personal preference. I started off with white but have since then removed it and gone with the black. I really like it and it makes my coral colors pop. The only thing i can say as far as type i have always used the bigger grain. I did try the fine sand and regretted it when the sand constantly was suspended in the water everytime a snail or crab walked around on the sand bed. That mistake was done in my biocube and i fixed it by adding larger grain sand on top.

[snuggle2me]

my biocube
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o319/Alurix/1322269426.jpg
my 55gal
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o319/Alurix/1322620077.jpg

Hope this helps you decide on the sand color. :)

[big cats]

Definitely does!

[SushiGirl]

The larger grained black like in snuggle2me's pics seems to stay cleaner. I had a finer black sand in my first tank & it was covered with light colored detritus in a month. Just don't go crushed coral, it holds a lot of crap in it.

I have pretty fine sand in mine and don't have any issues. Once the bacteria gets really going it keeps it from floating around as much.

[big cats]

Okay, I definitely like the look of the black. Is Argonite a good substrate? We have a 25lb bag of that in my store right now. And how much substrate do I use? 1lb per gallon?

So those water machines outside of grocery stores dispense RO water?
I didn't know that! lol Then again I don't know much about RO water other than what it is.

I'm assuming that it would be okay to use RO water in a fw tank because it's just really pure water.

What are some good beginner corals to put in a tank? I like the frog spawn and hammer corals, but I don't know what a good one to start out with is. I'm sure I will get the hang of all this once I start everything up.


For a QT tank, when I am planning on getting something for my tank should I set it up with FW and let it run until I know the salinity of what I'm getting is going to be kept at, and then just add salt? Or do I wait until I have the fish/invert/coral and then go set up the tank before putting it in...And I should quarantine for 4 weeks right?

[big cats]

After reading a bit more on here, it seems like QT is normally around 4 weeks, so this is my next question. If I were to start my tank this weekend, I would have to let the tank cycle for 2 months correct? so at the end of the first month could I purchase my initial corals/shrimp or goby and start the quarantine process while the DT cycles? Or should I wait until the cycling is finished just in case some levels are off?

[NyteGTI]

For the qt mixing. Go ahead and mix up water for your qt the night before you go looking so its properly mixed. For qt time its usually 2 weeks and if they show signs of disease then an additional 2 weeks. That's what I do with my fw setup. Also id wait until its fully cycled so you're not waiting hoping that you cycle is over. Remember your qt water is going to need to be changed pretty regularly since its going toan try to cycle itself.

Sent from my horrible autocorrecting DROIDX

[Jocko]

In regards to the cycle time, it's all about equilibrium. Whatever is producing waste/ammonia in your tank will be the food supply for your bacteria. So the size of that food supply will control the size of your bacteria population. If you change the food supply, the population will begin to change to match it although that naturally take a little time before they get balanced again.

So when your tank is reading zero for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, you know that your bacteria population is big enough to process all available "food" in the tank. At that point, you can add a small amount of new livestock. That will increase available ammonia. And until the bacteria population grows to match that, there will be a little excess ammonia in the water. But as long as your new livestock additions are small, there shouldn't be much impact on overall water quality. And once you're back to zero levels again, you know you're back in equilibrium.

That's why they say to take it slow.

[sage12177]

The rock will be fine. Be ready to be patient before addding any fish or corals. It takes a bit for the system to cycle. Don't add anything (fish or corals) until your water parameters are correct. Trust me, it's worth the wait vs losing fish and corals. I am new to the salt water aquariums as well. I bought a tank off craigslist. Unfortunately I went to a not so reputable fish store who sold me fish knowing it had only had water in it for 2 days. My fault for not researching first like you have but I was trying to surprise my son for when he came back from his summer visit with his Dad. Fortunately, I have now found a very reputable LFS where everyone has been very knowledgeable and helpful and my tank is up & running & beautiful! Love it and can't wait to get a bigger one already. Also, for what it's worth, I think salt water is easier to care for than fresh water. But that's just my opinion.

[big cats]

Oh yes I know I'm gonna have to be patient. I was just trying to see if that would reduce some stress from the situation. Can I QT multiple corals in the same tank at the same time?

[big cats]

Just thought I would bring this back up to let everyone know I'm getting my new tank tomorrow! Much bigger than I wanted, but still to MY standard of small. It will be a 30 gallon half moon. It was the same price as the 8 gallon and for an extra 22 gallons (and a stand) I figured it would be worth it just in case I suddenly end up with the "fish I just can't live without" syndrome. Haha.

I will be setting it up tomorrow evening when I get back home so I will be sure to take plenty of pics and make a new thread for some feedback, and I'm sure I will probably have some questions too!

I'm so excited to FINALLY get my tank started! I should probably start thinking about which corals I want to get? That way I can do some research on them while I let the tank cycle?

I don't know..I'm just a mess of excitement right now :D

[SushiGirl]

Congrats on the new tank.

[matt frizz]

Don't cheap out on equipment (spend the dough!) and don't cheap out on research.

[big cats]

Thanks SushiGirl! I CAN'T wait! Any advice on setting the tank up?
Like sand first then rock? Or is it the other way around?

[big cats]

Yes Matt I know this. I work at a pet store and I watch as people buy pets for as cheap as possible and then come back and spend twice as much as they would have had they gotten what I recommended the first time they came in. Lol.

My tank is coming with a skimmer built in to the filtration system.
I'm gonna start out with some black argonite substrate to make my colors pop and make the light look extra awesome. I'm not sure what I will need circulation wise though. Tank has two places for water to return, but I won't know for sure how well everything is going to circulate until I fill her up. I won't need something super powerful for only 30g will I?

[NyteGTI]

First off congrats on the new tank.
Put rock first then sand so you can make sure that nothing burrows into your sand and moves the rocks around. Im thinking a mj1200 and a korlia 425 would do nicely but check with others as the nj may be too low if your looking to keep some spa. What lighting comes with the tank?

Sent from my autocorrecting POS

[big cats]

Okay an update will come tomorrow. Life happened and the tank set up was delayed. I filled it up with fresh water to see if everything ran and the tank held water like I was promised, which luckily in my favor things are all smooth!

The Protein Skimmer is really loud, and I think I am missing a piece to it because I can't control the air flow and the vortex won't start, and it's REALLY loud. So I will get that fixed and then get everything else going and make sure to get some pics up! I'm not too impressed with the lighting, and I will probably be painting the light fixture black to minimize light leaving fixture out the back.. (dumb planning on their part) Other than that and the stand having some water damage I am proud of my used tank. haha..

Do I need carbon while the tank cycles? Or should I only worry about that once it's done cycling...

Oh and I heard something interesting today from my LFS. These people are very knowledgable, and have been helping friends of mine with their tanks for years. But she said something today that kind of confused me.

She said that since I am using live sand, and cured live rock, within a few days my tank will be ready for fish. I asked her if she was talking about getting the cycle going with damsels and she said, "No. Since the sand is already live and the rock you are using is cured and live, you don't need to wait."

Everything I have read here says otherwise, and I'm not sure what to go off of..All their tanks are amazing, disease free, and full of life..I know she knows what she's talking about, but a second opinion never hurts right??

[NyteGTI]

if you're using 100% CURED live rock, then just get regular sand and don't worry about the 'live" stuff. & yes if you keep the live rock moist from your LFS it's pretty much cycled in a week or so from the minimal die off of the live rock.

just get regular sand not live & all LR & you'll be cycled in no time.

[Bens_Reef]

if you're using 100% CURED live rock, then just get regular sand and don't worry about the 'live" stuff. & yes if you keep the live rock moist from your LFS it's pretty much cycled in a week or so from the minimal die off of the live rock.

just get regular sand not live & all LR & you'll be cycled in no time.

+1, i did this because i didnt know i could use dry rock and my tank didnt have an ammonia spike because there was little die off from the LR, i would still wait a couple weeks for your skimmer to break in and to make sure your parameters are stable but with my tank i bought my CUC after 2 weeks and a fish and corals after a month.

[big cats]

Well what if I have both LR and Live Sand? The bag says instant cycling on it (but just because that's what the label says doesn't really mean anything nowadays..) so a combo of both wont hurt will it?

And should I wait to put the carbon in until after the tank is cycled or should I just put it in now? And just so I'm sure I'm doin everything right 76-78 degrees is good for a reef tank right? Since most reefs are close to the equator and in shallower water?

[Bens_Reef]

if you use the sand from the bag you will most likely have a few weeks cycle time because the sand was live when it went in the bag but most likely died as it sat on the shelf, unless your LFS or the store you work at pulls the sand directly from an established tank it is not truly live and cycled. your best bet is using cured LR from a LFS and dry sand. the bacteria from the LR will help seed the sand and also you can get a cup of LS to go with the dry sand

[Bens_Reef]

the carbon isnt going to hurt it if you use it right now but you dont really need it till you run livestock, i only run carbon twice a month for 2-3 days each time usually just to remove coral spit, they get mad in my small tank. temp, 78-80. i keep one of my tanks at 78 and one at 80 but between those it good, reef tanks i think like 80 better.

[NyteGTI]

The live sand will cause a cycle. It more than likely wont be that long, but it'll be longer than if you used plain sand

Sent from my autocorrecting POS

[big cats]

Well, I've already got my sand in there...lol So I guess my wait time is a little longer. Haha
And when you were talking CUC you were talking about snails and hermit crabs right? (I'm still getting used to the SW lingo..)

How long should I wait to test my water for the first time? (in order to let the ammonia spike)

[Bens_Reef]

yes CUC is clean up crew, snails and the like. i would test the water everyday (if you can) until the ammonia is at zero. then you just have to do water changes until your nitrates are at zero then you can add your CUC

here is a link on RC Lingo http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1672798

[big cats]

Cool. I will be starting a new thread with pics of the tank as it is all set up and ready now. I will put a link in this thread to it. I found that thread and read it, it's just taking some time to sink in. (I belong to a reptile forum as well, and there's lots of lingo there as well, much is very similar to on here lol)

Thanks for all your help guys!

[big cats]

Alright guys, here she is. Let me know what you think.


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19588596#post19588596