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andrewsky
12/11/2011, 05:06 PM
so i've brought 3 new fish in the past 5 months. I brought a goby which died after 1 1/2 - 2 weeks of being in my tank. I got a leopard wrasse which I'm not sure if he's still alive, i got him 2 months ago and just two weeks ago i saw him, he's nocturnal so thats why i probably haven't seen him. But when i saw that he was alive i figured my tank was fine to get one more fish because my aquarium was bare of fish. i got a bursa trigger, i figured this is a hardy fish so i got him. he ended up dying about 2 weeks after. the day after he died, i saw my leopard wrasse. so i have no idea whats going on. i have cyano on my rock, just a couple spots here and there, i just did a lights out period so there is only an extremely light covering on my sand, it used to be extremely thick. now i have hair algae growing which im going to try and do another lights out period and dose some algaefix. but any ideas, i havent done a water change for three weeks up until last week, im gonna do another one tomorrow, but its because salt is pretty expensive to keep up with it, well for me because i'm in highschool and dont have a job, my dad buys it for me sometimes if i need it, but i just got tons of money, so gonna go buy alot of salt over the christmas sales, lol. but could not doing a water change for the 3 weeks be the problem.

my parameters:
phosphates: 0ppm
calcium: 480-500ppm
nitrate:0ppm
dkh:6kh (kind of low, how could i raise this, could i open windows and dose more B-ionic Alkalinity)
Ph:7.8-8.0

thats all i am able to test for because i dont have the other testing equipments.
so any ideas??????

Bens_Reef
12/11/2011, 05:09 PM
how big is your tank? if its larger than 75g then i doubt 3 weeks would be too long, as long as your not over feeding, but if your NO3 is 0 then thats probably not it.

whats your salinity at?

gmate
12/11/2011, 05:10 PM
Please give the following parameters:

How long the tank has been up/running
How long the tank has been running since your 'cycle' was complete
Tank size
Salinity
Ammonia/Nitrite (Assuming 0 since you did not list them)
Do you dose for anything you don't test (Magnesium?)
Are there any issues with flow/temperature?

Myself and many others would love to offer information if you could give us a little more first.

rayn
12/11/2011, 05:41 PM
High nitrates could be part of the problem. Readings of 0 but HA growing means you have nitrate and or phosphate issues even though they read 0. How doyou acclimate your fish could be another thought and are they eating either at the lfs or when you get them home?

andrewsky
12/11/2011, 05:44 PM
Tank size is 118 gallons, i feed every other day switching from pellets to flakes and then brine shrimp with shreds of regular shrimp mixed with garlic additive and a fat/omega 3 additive
salinity: 1.023-1.025
the tank has been running 1 year 2 months
1 year since cycle was complete
Ammonia and nitrite i do not have the testing equipment for, i will soon though
i do not test magnesium but i will soon
temperature goes between 76-80 degrees
flow should be fine, i just added two new koralia pumps, doing great by the way
that should answer those questions.

andrewsky
12/11/2011, 05:48 PM
i acclimate my fish but letting them sit in a bag in my tank for an hour. every 15 minutes ill pour a half a cup or so of my water into the bag. i guess you can see its like drip acclimation just less sophisticated way lol. i do have the LFS feed them and they eat fine. but once in my tank for the first week they were not eating, then the last week they eat. my bursa trigger i tried to get him to eat, but all he would do for the first week of not eating is swim into the food but not bite or chase after it but not bite it.

lordofthereef
12/11/2011, 05:52 PM
Nitrates aren't going to hurt your fish. For a long time I was one of those people that thought nitrites would, but apparently, in marine aquaria, it is also not something to worry about.

based on the length of time you are keeping these fish alive, I wouldn't expect your troubles to be a result of bad acclimation. There are plenty of people, including myself, that don't do lengthy acclimation for various reasons such as ammonia shock.

Ammonia would be my worry, but that's a pretty big tank to be killing off those small fish in that time. What else do you have in your tank? You mentioned there are no fish. Are you keeping anything living in there? I would assume so since the tank is over a year old, but what?

Bens_Reef
12/11/2011, 05:59 PM
could be the 4 degree temp fluctuation, i know that big of a temp change can stress fish out pretty bad but usually its an instant change that does that.

duke62
12/11/2011, 06:49 PM
are you getting the fish fro the same place?alot of wholesalers get there fish from the wild using chemicals which in time kills the fish.usually in a few weeks

andrewsky
12/11/2011, 09:36 PM
i have five other fish in my tank, including two black and white ocellaris clownfish, a blue hippo tang, royal gramma, and a rusty angel. i have corals that im having no problems with, two acro corals, an acro table coral, a montipora which is growing like crazy, an anemone but it split so i have two one of them even has its bubbles which i hear is a good sign, blue and purple mushrooms and ricordeas, candy canes, GSP which part of it is covered in GHA, and a toadstool that is growing like crazy. thats about it. i also see this really weird looking thing, it's very spiky looking and it looks like a sea urchin of some type, i know that sounds pretty retarded lol, but instead of needles directly coming off of it, it has sticks that have blooming spikes coming off of it, it looks and moves like a sea urchin, im not sure what type though. as for where i get these fish, the 3 fish that died or should say two that died and one that is hiding i got from the store up the street from me, they are called "Greenwich Aquaria", but the fish and most of the corals i listed above that are still alive and doing great and eat like pigs i got from this place in branford, called "All Pets Club" and they have survived. The anemone i got from "House of Fins" and the 3 acros and montipora and the royal gramma i got from "Greenwich Aquaria". so i do go to different places but it seems the best place is branford but unfortunately its like an hour and a half drive.

KEITHHAYS_2000
12/11/2011, 09:47 PM
You never said (or I didn't see) what your nitrate readings are?

Two ideas
1. You testing is not showing correct numbers and the existing animals have become used to something being out of whack over time. The new animals just die.

2. Something in your tank doesn't want anymore company.

andrewsky
12/11/2011, 09:52 PM
the nitrate reading is the first post, it was 0ppm. as for the correct numbers, i have API testing kit so not sure how they are as far as testing kits, i heard mix reviews, but my ph i brought separately and its the salifert company. as for the something in my tank, maybe my tang if anything, he kind of owns the tank, but i havent seen any like pickings at the dead corps, i've looked and looked, on the bursa i saw a tine scrape on the body near his dorsal fin, but i think thats just from a rock.

KEITHHAYS_2000
12/11/2011, 10:09 PM
hmmm...I just read through the rest of the posts.

The hair algae and cyano are telling the true story. You have quite a bit of nitrogen (nitrates) in your tank. While your lights are on they are doing a great job of processing nitrates. Most tests will read zero. When the lights are out, I suspect, your are having very high nitrate spikes (and possibly ammonia and nitrite depending on the cause). Try testing just before your lights come on. Basically, anything at this point that disturbs the algae and bacteria will cause issues so you might want to be carefull with the algaefix.

If you will need to figure out where the nitrates are coming from. It could be your water supply or a saturated sand bed.

J-Burns
12/11/2011, 10:33 PM
I suspect that if something in your water was killing your fish the older ones would also die. I agree that you probably have PO4 and nitrogen in excess. I don't think that is what is killing your fish. Only your new ones are dieing- right? I would try getting my fish somewhere else.

WetShepherd
12/11/2011, 10:38 PM
Exactly what Keith-2000! said. In addition, I'd take an extra sample of water right before lights on and bring it to one of your LFS to have it tested for both ammonia (unlikely) and nitrates (wouldn't worry about nitrites).

Do you have crushed coral for your substrate? That's known to become a bit of a nitrate farm after a year or more of trapping detritus. If so, the fix for that would be the obvious - switch it out for sand. That sounds like a big job, but it's really just a lot of hard work over the course of a single day.

Also, are you using RODI water or tap water?

Regarding your acclimation - ammonia toxicity really shouldn't be a problem if the fish hasn't been in the bag for a long time (think shipping), but there are many who argue that it can be - so if the other ideas don't pan out - try reducing your acclimation period. And if you want to use a drip, your LFS will have some cheap air hose line and a little valve - whole thing costs a couple dollars.

Are you quarantining the fish or do they just go in the display tank after your hour long acclimation? If you aren't doing a QT, consider setting one up - if you can't set up another tank, then ask at your local fish store if they know anyone who provides that service - it's common in larger cities - think of the guys that handle all of the fish tanks you see in restaurants and offices (and apparently in many affluent households who keep them as ornamentation). These guys often have multiple tanks and will not only QT, but will also provide hospital tank services. I had my first few fish QT'd that way - it was great and the service cost less than the fish ;). The point here is just to have a chance to observe the fish in another environment to help remove some of the variables.

I hope you figure it out - my bet would be on something going on at your LFS, but there isn't much you can do about that other than switch. Best of luck!

nuccadoc
12/11/2011, 11:16 PM
Ok, let's think this through. You stated that your corals and established fish are doing well. Your sps corals require very good water so we can rule out a water chemistry problem. At least in terms of killing your fish. I believe your problem is the fish store you purchased these dead fish from. Did you ask how long they had them before you bought them? A good lfs will hold fish for 30 days before letting them go. I have seen many fish die, even though they are eating, inside 30 days. It has to do with the harsh ways in which they are collected. I believe your solution is to not purchase from that specific store. Hth.

I can't believe I just typed all that out on my iPhone!

andrewsky
12/12/2011, 10:58 AM
Ok I will go buy an ammonia and other test kits stated above. But as far as lights their not on for that long, T5's are on from 11 to 8, MH is on from 12 to 7 and LED's are on al the time so idk if that's a lot of time for GHA to start? My substrate is sand I do not have crushed coral for that specific reason lol. So I will stop buying fish from that store but I guess I fine with corals from there, I'm in school right now posting this from my iPod lol, but as soon as I get out I will go and get the testing kits. So just to make things clear is it the fact that the GHA and cyano are growing off of the nitrogen/nitrates or is it ammonia? I will post back my test of ammonia and nitrates when I get the kits. Thanks a lot for helping I've Been worrying, also I an going to do a 20 gallon change and also I use RO/DI water and I put it into my bath to mix because we have the air jet bath tub so it mixes nicely, I also use either kent marine salt or usually reef crystals by instant ocean

reeftivo
12/12/2011, 11:53 AM
Your key perams for fish are ammonia , nitrite, sg and a stable temp. I suspect that since you're able to keep corals, your ammonia and nitrite are okay because they would die pretty quickly if they were high. You definately need to test.

Your acclimation method should be fine for fish but I would definately get hold of that temp swing. You should be able to hold it at +/- 1 degree.

Also if the LFS is getting fish that are caught using cyanide then they are doomed from the start. Most LFS are staying away from sellers that use this practice but they are still out there. There have still been reports of cyanide use in vietnam, philippines and the pacific rim areas. Probably because they can catch more fish with little effort. Problem with that is the fish usually die (after they have made a buck) and the reefs get ruined.

WetShepherd
12/12/2011, 07:58 PM
Your key perams for fish are ammonia , nitrite, sg and a stable temp. I suspect that since you're able to keep corals, your ammonia and nitrite are okay because they would die pretty quickly if they were high. You definately need to test.

I think you meant nitrate ;)

Unless we find out the nitrate kit is bad, or that there is somehow ammonia in the tank after a year with fish, the only solid bet left, I think, is going to be the LFS. If your ammonia checks out and your nitrate kit is ok, then maybe you should give Divers Den (http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/) a shot for your next fish. Just be sure to check out Sk8r's acclimation thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1939508) - especially the first paragraph (30 min max from the time the bag opens).

jamest0o0
12/12/2011, 08:21 PM
Unless your nitrates are crazy high, they shouldn't be killing fish, I've had horrible HA break outs in the past and the entire time all my fish were completely unaffected. I HIGHLY doubt it's nitrates, although it never hurts to get them in check. I know I had issues in the past with my salinity readings being off, make sure everything's calibrated correctly.

Also I didn't read this all through, but if the fish you are purchasing are more of rock dwelling type fish, and the ones you already have aren't then maybe there is something in the rocks that is killing them while they're hiding or asleep... just a thought...

anyway goodluck

jamest0o0
12/12/2011, 08:22 PM
Unless your nitrates are crazy high, they shouldn't be killing fish, I've had horrible HA break outs in the past and the entire time all my fish were completely unaffected. I HIGHLY doubt it's nitrates, although it never hurts to get them in check. I know I had issues in the past with my salinity readings being off, make sure everything's calibrated correctly.

Also I didn't read this all through, but if the fish you are purchasing are more of rock dwelling type fish, and the ones you already have aren't then maybe there is something in the rocks that is killing them while they're hiding or asleep... just a thought...

anyway goodluck

reefereef
12/12/2011, 10:36 PM
I have this same problem with fish from one certain store, they last for a few weeks then die. However i did just loose a blue fairy wrasse after having it for almost 2 months. I just figure there wasnt enough pods for the little guy

Jakester59
12/13/2011, 12:34 AM
Did I read this whole thread right? I saw a ph measurement of 7.8-8.0 and the fact that you mix your salt water in your bathtub kinda throws me off a little. The lowest Ive ever seen my ph is 8.0 and it was buffed up as soon as I got the reading. Your tub is for bathing the stink off. Buy a $10 trash can and a $10 power head. Do you dose mg? If not you might want to at least test for it. Might help with gha.

dimitrge
12/13/2011, 08:11 AM
I use 5 gallon buckets from home depot. I wash them with ro and use it for mixing. I'd get a few and do a big water change. Or alot of small ones.

shifty51008
12/13/2011, 08:28 AM
a pH of 7.8 - 8.0 is fine, won't hurt anything. however the mixing the SW in the bathtub can be a problem, soap residue ect can all contaminate your water, please don't use the tub for mixing water

andrewsky
12/13/2011, 02:14 PM
ok i will stop using the bath tub for mixing water, i have tons of 5 gallon buckets that i can use, i will use those,i how could i fix the ph problem, and i will post the other readings later tonight or tomorrow cause im going to stop by the pet store and get them.

andrewsky
12/13/2011, 04:50 PM
just got the test kit marine lab by Redsea, it does not have the magnesium and i could find it.
levels:
Alkalinity:1.7 which is the lower part of normal on the card, but its in normal range
Nitrates:0ppm
nitrites:0.05ppm
Ammonia:its a yellow color with a very very light green tint, so it's 0ppm or a little more
PH:was 8.2-8.4, it was hard to tell.
water Temp is at 74 degrees, i have my heaters blasting, its because the temp in the basement is low, im trying my best to raise it.
there are my new levels, these were taken with the lights on, so tomorrow or over the weekend i will try to take them with the lights off.

andrewsky
12/13/2011, 05:00 PM
i also got chemipure, how do i put this into the system, can i put it into my filter socks? or what?
thanks for all the help!!

WetShepherd
12/14/2011, 08:52 AM
I don't know it so I can't speak from experience, but I can quote you what Dr.F&S said:


Use 1 package for aquariums up to 40 gallons, 2 packages for 40- to 100-gallon aquariums. Aquariums above 100 gallons require 2 packages plus one package for every additional 25 gallons.
Instructions:
Keep Chemi-Pure package sealed until ready for use. Be sure to place Chemi-Pure in an area of your filter that is large enough to accept the amount needed. Use the formula supplied to figure the amount of Chemi-Pure you need. Do not divide packages under any circumstances.
Do not open filter bag. Remove by turning bottle upside down and shaking. Rinse lightly and place bag in filter and flatten out as much as possible. Any area not filled by the bag should be packed evenly with glass or Dacron filter wool and then place a thin layer of the same over bag. Change wool and rinse off bag when flow-through filter decreases.


It sounds interesting - I might give it a shot in my QT.

zeeter
12/14/2011, 12:13 PM
Until proven otherwise I would concentrate on the bathtub mixing issue. Like someone else said, get a trashcan and mix the water in there. In the meantime, do a bunch 10-20% water changes maybe every other day. If all of this water was in the bathtub then it has soap residue, conditioner residue, tub-cleaner residue - there's some harsh chemicals in that stuff. Not to mention bacteria from your own body. Likely the resident fish have adjusted to the imperfections in the water but the new fish are slowly letting it kill them.

Make sure whatever trash can you get is made from food-grade plastic. Most of them are grade 2, but just make sure. Most plastics are food grade but there are a couple that leach out harmful chemicals.

zeeter
12/14/2011, 12:19 PM
I don't know it so I can't speak from experience, but I can quote you what Dr.F&S said:

(snip about chemi-pure)

It sounds interesting - I might give it a shot in my QT.

I use nothing but chemi-pure elite. To me it is the best stuff out there. I just throw a bag in there every month and I'm good. I have 110 gallons in total water volume between the sump, refugium, and DT and after around a year of sticking to the proper dosing instructions I now only put in the one bag. It's really all you need once the tank is fully mature.

Pay the extra few dollars for the elite over the standard. Also, this stuff supposedly can be rinsed off and re-used. When I was using two at a time I would rinse one and replace the other, then the next month I'd remove the one I used twice and replace it with a new one while rinsing the second one to use again.

andrewsky
12/14/2011, 02:23 PM
ok sounds great, now where do i put the chemi pure, in the filter socks? because i dont have a filter i have a sump with some live rock, two filter socks and a protein skimmer, then a UV system thing.
also, what salt do you guys use that could be more affordable for me? the reef crystals is starting to come close with my money, lol.
thanks everyone.

MHG
12/14/2011, 02:32 PM
High nitrates could be part of the problem. Readings of 0 but HA growing means you have nitrate and or phosphate issues even though they read 0. How doyou acclimate your fish could be another thought and are they eating either at the lfs or when you get them home?

Can you educate me on this one?

shifty51008
12/14/2011, 04:44 PM
MHG, I beleive he is saying that because you have HA growing you have nitrates and phosphates but they are not showing on the test kits because the HA is using it up as fast as it is comming into the tank. now I have only seen this with people having 0 phosphate readings but I am sure with enough HA it could cause a 0 nitrate reading also.

andrewsky, you can put it into a filtersock however a phosphate reactor would be much better as the water would be pushed up through the chemipure and not just around it. something like the two little fishies 150 reactor would be fine.

Sport507
12/14/2011, 05:05 PM
What is your live stock list other than any fish that you may have at the moment?

andrewsky
12/14/2011, 07:35 PM
i have a toadstool, GSP, Mushrooms and ricordeas, candy canes, an anemone but it split into two, a small frogspawn, 3 acroporas, and a montipora. the corals are all doing fine. The fish i have mentioned in the other post if you look back.