something went wrong or not?????

[machodik]

Dear All,

Inconnections with my fight to lower down my Nitrate and phos in my tanks.

way back 4 or 5 months ago, I started with using a nitrate reactor (JNR NR1 with Deniballs inside), this reactor runs for about a month and when I tested the water of this reactor, it is zero in my API.

But because this kind of reactor is too slow and that is why after I run it on the 2nd months, I started to combined it with dosing VODKA.

Now here is the issue and questions, I have tested again the water of teh reactor but it is now read 20 in my API. of coarse I have set up a doubt in my API , as I taken up this topic in other forum. but I was wondering, will the vodka dosing will tends to kill those anaerobic organism inside my Nitrate reactor that tends to make the water inside the said reactor with 20 marked on API NO3 test?

Much appreciated for your enlightment.

cheers,


MD

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you read more nitrate from the reactor than the tank?

Aside from testing error, here’s one possibility.

That may be an artifact of the kit.

Many nitrate kits read a little nitrite as a lot of nitrate.

So a newly starting denitrator, or one that is running too slowly, may output some nitrite, and that looks to a nitrate kit user as if nitrate were higher than the water going in, when in reality, it is not.

[machodik]

thanks Randy,

so I need to test the nitrite too in this case, so that we can verify what is really the reason behind?

as of now, Salifert is out of stocks here, do you think I can bought the Sera or tetra brand for the Nitrate testing kits (in replacement of my API) OR i HAVE TO WAIT FOR sALIFERT to be available?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's one way, yes.

Or just speed up the flow and see if "nitrate" declines. :)

[machodik]

That's one way, yes.

Or just speed up the flow and see if "nitrate" declines. :)

Hi Randy,

thanks again.

If I speed up the flow instead of 2 drops / sec. will that possibly relase all those anaerobic bacteria inside the reactor? I think the Nitrate reactor are too slow. I wonder how much time it needs before really reduces all of my nitr4ate in the tansk and sump. It is rerally because I am getting impatience that is why I combined with dosing Vodka and now even thinking of dosing vinegar....I am making it more worst?

[bertoni]

The anaerobic bacteria won't be released, but if the slow is bumped up enough, the added oxygen will kill them. A small change should be fine.

[machodik]

The anaerobic bacteria won't be released, but if the slow is bumped up enough, the added oxygen will kill them. A small change should be fine.

thanks Bertoni,

one more questions, will the dosing Vodka will not create like they claims of mono organism later on inside the nitrate reactor? or perhaps this help the nitrate reactor be more efficient by adding the dosing of Vodka.

Cheers,


MD

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I doubt some vodka added to the tank overall will impact the denitrator much, but if some gets in there and a little extra bacteria grows, I do not see any concern. :)

[machodik]

thanks!

I think the same way too.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Good luck. :)

[machodik]

Hi Randy,

Its me again.

Last night, I checked again with my API test Kits (as my Salifert has not yet arrived yet). the reading of my NO3 is <20 (I think between 10 and 20 marked in the color chart) and my PO4 goes down to 0.25 . I am now increasing my dosing of Vodka to 4.6ml by next week , it may goes up to 4.9 ml. I am worry about the continue increasing teh vodka concentration, I dont knwo when to stop or should I adding Vinegar dosing. I am afraid that my tank will looks like a soup with so many different stuff in it. but I am so impatience to wait for the NO3 to goes down to at least normal level. due to the prefilter I bought to act as a reactor of my Seachem Phosguard are in a a showering method that dripping the phosguard in there, so I have taken 1 socks of phosguard and hang them inside the sumps with faster water flow area. I have observed that one of my sof corals (forgot the name, will post picture later) have 1 of the branch are not opening, is this the reaction of teh so called aluminum debris from phosguard that causing this branch not to be widely open than the rest?

Hope you can further guide me, as I m really new in this hobby and a lots to learn from you guys.

SORRY FOR SUCH A LONG MESSAGE. WISH YOU ALL A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Cheers,

MD

[bertoni]

I agree that being careful with vodka and vinegar is important. Moving the vodka up 0.3 ml at a time seems like a reasonable pace, though. What's the dose currently?

[tmz]

I've not used the deniballs or the reactor you note but they sound like a form of plastic polymer in a rather large form comparedto biopellets:
http://www.aqua-medic.com/deniballs.shtml

The instructions for nitratereductor by the deniballs manufacture( Aqua Medic) do indeed call for slow flow (1 to two drops per second) but I can't understand why. This is the usual flow rate for newly cycling sulfur dentirators where the sufur bacteria perish in the presence of oxygen or where in the early stages of operation nitrite is produced necessitating a slower flow. With organic polymers,plastic organic carbon sources (which is what the deniballs are calimed to be by the manufacturer ) a higher flow is a more normal course and the bacteria involved should do well with oxygen or nitrate for respiration.

[machodik]

I agree that being careful with vodka and vinegar is important. Moving the vodka up 0.3 ml at a time seems like a reasonable pace, though. What's the dose currently?

Hi Bertoni,

Present dose is 4.6ml

cheers,

MD

[machodik]

I've not used the deniballs or the reactor you note but they sound like a form of plastic polymer in a rather large form comparedto biopellets:
http://www.aqua-medic.com/deniballs.shtml

The instructions for nitratereductor by the deniballs manufacture( Aqua Medic) do indeed call for slow flow (1 to two drops per second) but I can't understand why. This is the usual flow rate for newly cycling sulfur dentirators where the sufur bacteria perish in the presence of oxygen or where in the early stages of operation nitrite is produced necessitating a slower flow. With organic polymers,plastic organic carbon sources (which is what the deniballs are calimed to be by the manufacturer ) a higher flow is a more normal course and the bacteria involved should do well with oxygen or nitrate for respiration.

Hi Tom,

Yes, the instructions is to maintain at most 2 drops / sec. and this is what I m setting the flows at this time.

I think the reason why the flow rate is such slow, should letting the water to be process by those anaerobic bateria inside the reactor. I guess , it should be that way.

But really, the process is too slow and that is why I combined woith Vodka dosing.

Perhaps I can also add another one......Vinegar Dosing to make it 3 system in my Tank:

1) Nitrate reductor with Dennibals
2) Vodka DOSING
3) VINEGAR DOSING

Will this be advisable? if so, how I dose vinegar and I can not fine any pure Vinegar in the local store here, only those that we use for cooking. will that be ok?

Have a happy Holiday to all!

cheers,

MD

[bertoni]

Okay, I think that moving it up to 4.9 ml sounds like a reasonable step for next week.

Mixing vinegar and vodka seems to be fine. I'd ramp up slowly on the vinegar, though. Keeping the vodka dose the same and adding a bit of vinegar might be a better course of action for next week, if you want to try vinegar.

The denitrator should be fine along with the dosing.

[machodik]

Hi Jonathan,

thanks again for your quick response.

If I started with Vinegar, how much should I add along with my Vodka. my tanks is about 200 liters volume.

should I use the Vinegar that my wife is using for cooking?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Use distilled white vinegar, which is pretty normal for cooking, but there are other, darker kids also used for cooking, and I'd avoid those. Normal 5% acidity vinegar is about 8 folds less potent than 80 proof vodka, so you can think about swapping one for the other that way, if you want.

[machodik]

Use distilled white vinegar, which is pretty normal for cooking, but there are other, darker kids also used for cooking, and I'd avoid those. Normal 5% acidity vinegar is about 8 folds less potent than 80 proof vodka, so you can think about swapping one for the other that way, if you want.

Hi Randy,

Thanks !

In Taiwan, we have this Vinegar but it is either yellow in color (fermentation thru Glutinous rice) or another one that is milky white. I don know if I refer the white is just white or transparent colour like water?

do you think I have to add 10 ml per day as initial does along with my 4.6 to 4.9 ml of vodka? will this be too much???

cheers,


MD

[bertoni]

I would start with something more like 1 ml or so. That's about the same in terms of fixed carbon as 0.13 ml of vodka.

[machodik]

I would start with something more like 1 ml or so. That's about the same in terms of fixed carbon as 0.13 ml of vodka.

Jonathan,

thanks for your advise. I will start doing so right after I recheck my NO3. Just got the parcel now of my Salifert. will check water later tonight.

Have a nice holiday to you.

Cheers,

MD

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd choose the rice vinegar. Do you know how strong it is?

[machodik]

I'd choose the rice vinegar. Do you know how strong it is?

in the label, it say 4.2% and above.

Here is the link:

http://www.kongyen.com.tw/en/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=7&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=157&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=12

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, so that's no far from the normal vinegar we refer to, which is 5%. :)

[machodik]

OK, so that's no far from the normal vinegar we refer to, which is 5%. :)

so can I use it?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It seems like an Ok choice, yes. It is hard to be certain on impurities, however. :)

[machodik]

It seems like an Ok choice, yes. It is hard to be certain on impurities, however. :)


thanks and noted

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

[machodik]

Dear All,

As I mentioned, I just got my salifert No3 kits to confirmed if my API test kits is accurate or not.

The result is just the same. To my surprised, 3 days ago, I check my water with the existing API for NO3 and Po4, the reading is:
NO3----between 20 and 10, so I consider it like 15 ppm (as the color is in between the said 2 mark)
Po4----0.25

But this morning, as I got the Salifert test kits, result as follows:
NO3 -----20 (API)
-----25 (Salifert)
PO4------0.5

So, this conclude that my API is correct and I should not be doubt about it.
But , why in short 3 days period of time, My No3 and Po4 went up again. I have spend so many money and time in setting up :
1) Nitrate Reactor (JNS NR1 with Aqua medic's Denniballs for almost 5 months at 2 drops / sec rate)
2) Vodka Dosing : for about 2 months now, present dosage 4.6ml / day
3) For Po4, I installed a reactor with Seachem Phosguard , almost 2 times of 250g. phosguard. I think Seachem Phosguard only maintain short term to lower down the Po4....Is this so??? I heard that Rowa Phos is more longer period to maintain the PO4. I dont want to do trial and error game, so much bucks and time involves....any comment or advise?

I fed the fish 2x a day with some Tetra Marine granules XL, plus some vegetables or dry seaweed (that is use in sushi bar, unsalted).

I think, I have to change water but, why is it that I can not bring down the NO3 and PO4 to the normal level inspite of my effort in the said period of time????

WHAT REALLY WENT WRONG WITH MY SYSTEM???

Feeling so desperate!!!

[bertoni]

Water changes tend not to help, because the nutrients levels can move back up very rapidly if the nutrient source isn't cut off. I'd stop feeding for a few days to see how the nutrient levels change.

[machodik]

Water changes tend not to help, because the nutrients levels can move back up very rapidly if the nutrient source isn't cut off. I'd stop feeding for a few days to see how the nutrient levels change.

Hi Jonathan,

other said that the live rock in my tanks is ozing back the No3 that is why I can not lower down the level of No3. they suggest that I use my wave maker motor to blow out those muddy or some sort of dirt fropm those live rock and change 100 % water.

any better advise?

[bertoni]

Well, moving the debris that way is unlikely to hurt, and it might help a bit. It should be easy to try.

The PhosGuard and the GFO products, like RowaPhos, are largely identical in how they work, although aluminum from the PhosGuard might irritate some corals. You might need to change the media more frequently. I'd also stop feeding for a few days while adding some more PhosGuard to the mix. If the phosphate doesn't come down, something very odd is happening.

[machodik]

If the phosphate doesn't come down, something very odd is happening.

any idea what will be the reason behind???

[bertoni]

GFO and PhosGuard both should be able to remove phosphate in large amounts rapidly, sometimes too rapidly. I'm not sure I'd trust measurements that show no change in the level after adding a bunch of PhosGuard.

[machodik]

Last sunday, I made a big cleaning of my reef tank by brushing the surface of all live rocks and then using my submerged motor to blow out any debris on the live rocks + 100% water change.

I make use of the coral marine sea salt but later found out the KH is only 5 dkh and calcium only 17 (340) on API test kit.

My present parameter is:

Sp. gravity: 1.021
No3----5 ppm (api) ; salifert (2 ppm)
Po4----0.25 ppm
KH ----5 dkh
Calcium---17 (340)
temp. 27 degree centrigate

I have added 20 ml of A + 20 ml of b OF THE c BALANCE SOLUTION

Questions:
why inspte of this big step of cleaning and water change, why the No3 and Po4 is not "ZERO"?

Presently, I have my No3 reactor with denniballs running with 2 drops per sec. and also using phosban reacotr with seachem phosguard on it. Should I continue my Vodka + Vinegar dosing? if so, should I start from the begining dose again or from my last dose of 5.5 vodka + 8 ml vinegar?

By the way, my water volume is 340 to 350 liters.

Kindly advise your best comment and suggestions,.

Cheers,


MD

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Phosphate binds to rocks and sand, and so even a 100% water change won't remove it all because it then just starts coming off the rock again.

[machodik]

Phosphate binds to rocks and sand, and so even a 100% water change won't remove it all because it then just starts coming off the rock again.

Hi Randy,

Thanks for your advise.

But I have thouroughly brushes and using submerged motor to blow off the LR for any debris left, so what should I do next to totally reduced or prevent the No3 and Po4 from coming back???

Please help.

[bertoni]

The brushing won't remove phosphate, which is chemically bound to the aragonite matrix. If the rock only has a thin layer of calcium carbonate that's contaminated with phosphate, then you can try an acid dip to remove that layer. I'd probably try soaking the rock in some water for a while, and see how the phosphate level changes. Well, assuming the rock isn't back in a tank already.

If the rock is in the tank, about all you can do is run GFO until the phosphate is removed.

[machodik]

The brushing won't remove phosphate, which is chemically bound to the aragonite matrix. If the rock only has a thin layer of calcium carbonate that's contaminated with phosphate, then you can try an acid dip to remove that layer. I'd probably try soaking the rock in some water for a while, and see how the phosphate level changes. Well, assuming the rock isn't back in a tank already.

If the rock is in the tank, about all you can do is run GFO until the phosphate is removed.

Hi Jonathan, the LR is already inside the tank and how about the No3....continuing with Vodka? I really hope to use as well Vinegar, here in Taiwan, we have costco as well, My wife told me that she saw some vinegar that was imported from the USA that is selling in our local costco.....can you give me some brand of the vinegar you mostly use that you buys from local costco over there?

thanks in advance!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I buy the cheap store name brand, but Heinz is a very good name in vinegar. :)

[machodik]

I buy the cheap store name brand, but Heinz is a very good name in vinegar. :)

Thanks Randy,

yah! Heinz is the name that I can think of whenever it comes to tomatoes sauce! will try to find if Costco has it!

thanks a million!:fun4:

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

:thumbsup:

Good luck. :)