Foxface kill a banded butterfly??

[Wistler]

So I have a question about an incident that happened yesterday in our 180 gallon FOWLR tank.

You can see the build thread here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2107532

So we had the small Blue Spot Toby, 2 inch long HUMU Trigger and 5 inch Magnificent foxface in the tank for a week. All parameters are fine and everyone eats like crazy.

My buddy came across a banded butterfly fish from a friends tank that was healthy for 1.5 years, but needed a new home. I saw the fish in the other tank for a week and it seemed fine, so I brought him home.

Violating the number one rule of QT I felt the fish would be more stressed in my 10 gal QT, so I opted to drip acclimate and put in the 180 tank. I put him in at 200PM and watched him closely. He seemed fine, swimming with the Foxface although he didnt eat at 600PM and his eyes looked like frosted donuts. My wife and I watched a movie (Tank is in TV room and in field of view) and I didnt see anyone harassing the butterfly. We went to bed at 1130 and I shut the tank lights off.

I woke up yesterday and the butterfly looked like crap. He was in a corner, gills moving fast (like panting) and his color was faint and he had red blotches on him. The trailing edges of his rear end fins looked a little tattered too. I was able to scoop him out easliy and I put him alone in the 10 Gallon QT.

I called my buddy and showed him the fish after it went belly up in the bag as the pic shows. He thinks someone beat him to death overnight, because he has never seen a healthy fish expire in 12 hours due to iinfection.

The only guess we had was the foxface thought the similar color butterfly was another rabbit fish?

Well it spurred me on to go to Petsmart and get a 20 gal long on sale for $30 and wrap two sides in black vinyl and set up a proper QT for these larger fish. If it was in fact sick and died from an unknown stressor, lesson learned...

So now I have a mature flame angel and 3" long blue reef chromis in QT and I need to find out who the bully is in my tank. I dont want to risk purchasing expensive angels and other fish and have them perish. I was advised that when I stock the tank to avoid buying all the fish the same size, because there would likely be more fights to establish a pecking order. I went with a large foxface, because they are not supposed to be aggressive to non-rabbitfish.

Would a well fed Humu be that nasty at only 2 inches long?

Any ideas folks? thanks.

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Whistlernc/180%20Gallon%20FOWLR%20Tank/FoxandFly.jpg

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Whistlernc/180%20Gallon%20FOWLR%20Tank/Butterfly.jpg

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Whistlernc/180%20Gallon%20FOWLR%20Tank/newQT.jpg

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Whistlernc/180%20Gallon%20FOWLR%20Tank/Trigger.jpg

[fish stalker]

Sorry about your fish :( I had a blue and gold spotted rabbit and kept losing new fish after they had been in q tank fine. One had a huge bite out of it's dorsal fin. Never saw aggression so went through a series of elimination, since the rabbit went to a new home no more problems. It was a very nervous fish always darting about and only showing some attitude during feeding yet every morning there was evidence of some fighting with newer arrivals.

[namxas]

Odd...I don't doubt it, but IME with foxfaces, it was a model citizen, and got along fine with the Aussie CBB I kept in the same tank. However, I've never kept a magnifica.

[AlexS95]

I'd blame the Huma Trigger because they can be mean... I've never had a problem with my Bicolor Foxface with anyone and I've had him for about 4 or 5 months.

[namxas]

I'd blame the Huma Trigger because they can be mean... I've never had a problem with my Bicolor Foxface with anyone and I've had him for about 4 or 5 months.

That would be my first suspicion too...my picasso wouldn't allow another fish in the tank after it was there, but it was blatent about it.

[Wistler]

Hmmmm, so if I were really attached to the Humu and wanted to keep him would it be better to remove him and put him in the QT tank for a couple days while I switch newly purchased fish from QT to the 180?

I really like the Humu and had no idea a 2" fish would go after a 5" butterfly.

Page 400 of Scott Michaels "Marine Fishes" states " Juveniles are relatively mild mannered and will often eat from their owners fingers (He does). Belligerence will increase with age and they should be kept with fish equal in size or larger."

I really like him, but he may have to go....

[namxas]

A 2"-er is generally pretty mild-mannered, but since you haven't witnessed ANY aggression, it's hard to say which fish is the culprit.

[Wistler]

Thanks for the input guys. I just dont know how to move forward. I am leaning towards removing the Humu because I may have problems long term.

For example if in two years from now a fish I really like dies for some reason and I want to replace it with a Yellow or purple Tang (or anyfish) I think the Humu being larger by then will likely tear up any new additions.

I honestly cant see the foxface being mean, beause I have never heard of one going after another fish.

I really want a trigger with my mix of fish that I have planned. Is the blue Niger Trigger a more suitable fish for a tank with Foxface, angels, clowns, reef chromis?

[jarrod13]

I would suspect the huma as well. My buddy had a 1 inch that he had to get rid of due to aggression. Every fish is different and even though the book says mild mannered that's just a referance

Yes the nigers are USUALLY nicer. Then again I've seen one in a lfs that would literally draw blood if your hand went in the tank, but most of them are nice, I'm just saying there are exceptions. Also look at pinktails, bluethroats, sargassum/red tails, they are the more peaceful triggers. You could still do a huma but maybe take yours out and add him as the last fish

[Kahuna Tuna]

I have found that sometimes a fish will be healthy in one tank and doing great and is moved and that is the end of it. I have seen this happen where a perfectly healthy fish folds very quickly even when going into a system with similar water quality. I dont know about BF's but I have seen this happen with angels (closely related) where they don't handle the move at all.

You said his eyes looked glazed over? That doesn't sound good as the eyes are often the first sign of trouble with a fast moving infection, couple this with the stress of moving, the stress of possible aggressive tankmates and that may have been more than the fish could handle. I'm not convinced anyone beat him up, that looks more like a bacterial infection to me. I run a 180 and have a 60 gallon refugium plumbed into it that I use for quarantine, I find with touchy fish (most BF's are) a QT tank is really a must and I really like to have my fish eating and fully acclimated to the system before they go into the display.

[jarrod13]

That's pretty quick for an infection to kill

[Dr Colliebreath]

Strange. You would think there would be more evidence of torn fins or chunks from the fish if it got beat up badly enough overnight to die, particularly if the huma did it. Also, there tends to be less aggression with the lights out. The fish does look like it has something bacterial. Perhaps it already had an infection and then the stress of moving caused the infection to take over quickly.

The fish looks like a ulietensis, or double saddleback butterflyfish, from what I can see.

[Wistler]

Thanks for all the feedback. I really appreciate the piece of mind. I have fed my tank 3x today and I see no aggressiveness at all. I think the butterfly may have been doomed from the start, now that I think about it. The glazed eyes the first night we had him home are a clue. I created a short video of my fish, but dont expect much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-RgRUsp19g

[Wolverine]

Generally, I'd be inclined to blame the huma, since it's more likely to be aggressive, but I'm not sure that's the case here. As Greg pointed out, they're usually not that bad when they're small. And, as Frank pointed out, the fins look like they're in fine shape, and triggers often tear those apart.

IME, foxfaces don't get overly aggressive, but they do get very skittish, and it would be easy to imagine it and the butterfly running into each other, with the butterfly getting hit with the venom. Can't say for sure that's what's happened here, but I have seen it happen.

[Wistler]

I forgot I had another picture of the Butterfly fish on my phone. This one was taken about 2 hours before it perished and right before I scooped him out of the display.

You can see the red blotches and hazing in his eyes.

I have been watching the tank a whole lot, especially since its in the field of view of our TV and havent seen anything aggressive.

I'm hoping it was either already getting sick, or the stressors of the move did him in. We were using a 10 gallon tank as a QT for the 1-2" size fish that we bought, but this incident kicked my but in gear to get the 20 gallon QT up and running. From now on ALL fish are in QT for 2 weeks for sure. I just found out the LFS that we get a lot of fish from treats all incoming fish with copper and does a 1 week QT had a wipeout of all their fish in the system with a disease. Like I have read may times on RC, QT all fish, even from the most trusted sources!!

I guess I will keep all three fish and see what happens when I add the two Blue Reef Chromis. If they fare well for a few days I will add the flame angel.

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Whistlernc/180%20Gallon%20FOWLR%20Tank/Butterfly2.jpg

Here is the view from my couch so there is something to watch during commercials.....and thats a 60" TV dwarfed :spin2::spin1:

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k594/Whistlernc/TVRoom.jpg