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dchisenh
07/06/2003, 12:40 PM
Hey Dwayne :)

I've got to admit, when I saw the Geosapper in this month's Reefkeeping magazine, I was EXTREMELY impressed. :D I was trying to create sort of the same thing, but along totally different lines. This Geosapper design blows my idea out of the water.

Is there any place where I could order one? About how much would they sell for?

I'm planning on studying the designs a little more before I think about "downsizing" one for my nano-system. :)

Keep the ideas coming! :D

-Dan

Dwayne
07/06/2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by dchisenh
Hey Dwayne :)

I've got to admit, when I saw the Geosapper in this month's Reefkeeping magazine, I was EXTREMELY impressed. :D I was trying to create sort of the same thing, but along totally different lines. This Geosapper design blows my idea out of the water.

Thanks. I'm glad you like the design.

Is there any place where I could order one? About how much would they sell for?

To my knowledge there are only maybe 3 in existence today. There are several qualified acrylic fabricators that could build one for you, this is one of the reasons for making the design public domain. I worked with George Weber from geosreef.com to help with the initial design.

It would be up to the acrylic fabricator you choose as to the cost for a Geosapper.

I'm planning on studying the designs a little more before I think about "downsizing" one for my nano-system. :)

That is another benefit of the design. By adjusting the diameter and length of the acrylic tube, you can build a Geosapper to fit almost any application. Calculate the amount you want to feed per surge and work the design backwards from there.


Thanks

Dwayne

igoRluse
07/07/2003, 08:02 PM
Very nice work indeed. Just one small question, the surge tubes... titanium?

Dwayne
07/07/2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by igoRluse
Very nice work indeed. Just one small question, the surge tubes... titanium?

Hmmm, sorry slight oversight on my part in the article. :D

The surge tubes are 1/4" rigid air tubing. I used a heat gun to bend them into shape.

Hope that helps.

Dwayne

igoRluse
07/08/2003, 02:05 AM
Cool. And what diameter would those surge need to be to avoid any brine shrimp clogging?

Thanks for the help.

Dwayne
07/08/2003, 06:38 AM
I made a mistake in my earlier reply to you. I cant go back and edit my response (time has expired). The Tubing used for the surges is 3/16", not 1/4".

This is small enough to easily work with, but large enough to accommodate adult brine shrimp.

Dwayne

SeanT
07/08/2003, 07:53 AM
I have a question about your chamber one holding area.

How are you planning on getting the phytoplankton to reproduce in high enough numbers without using fertilizer?
If fertilizer is used, then surely there is a real possibility that some will get into the tank causing all sorts of problems to include the very real possibility of algal outbreaks.

Dwayne
07/08/2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by SeanT
I have a question about your chamber one holding area.

How are you planning on getting the phytoplankton to reproduce in high enough numbers without using fertilizer?

I don't. The first chamber is not a phytoplankton reactor. It is only there to hold the phytoplankton while it is dripped into the second chamber. Any culturing of phytoplankton would be done external to the feeder.


Dwayne

SeanT
07/08/2003, 08:14 AM
Ahh ok.
I thought that it may be an all in one bad boy.
Still pretty darn sweet.
So, no plans by yourself or Geo to produce these for sale?

Dwayne
07/08/2003, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by SeanT
So, no plans by yourself or Geo to produce these for sale?

I don't have any plans to make them. Geo might be willing to make some, but I can't speak for him.


Dwayne

snowman
07/08/2003, 09:48 AM
What a great design. The idea of making it part of public domain rather than using a patent and going for the big bucks speaks wonders for your contribution to the hobby.
I wonder how long it will be before we see someone try and make minor changes to the design that are so insignificant yet major enough for them to try and go into production calling it there invention.
We with in the hobby should have an annual reward or recognition for those who bring significant advancement to the hobby. I for one would nominate you for 2003. My appriciation and many thanks Snowman:)

SPC
07/08/2003, 09:59 AM
Great design Dwayne:) ,

Do you envision any problems with the tubes being stopped up?
Steve

Dwayne
07/08/2003, 10:17 AM
snowman - Thanks for the compliment, but dont forget Geo's help here also. :D

Originally posted by SPC
Great design Dwayne:) ,

Do you envision any problems with the tubes being stopped up?
Steve

Thanks. I 've been running a similar type setup for a few months. I have yet to clean it and I haven't had any issues with the tubes clogging. This doesn't mean eventually they will clog. ;) Each of the surge tubes can be removed for cleaning or replaced with minimal cost or effort. The only other point to watch is the air bubblers. They may eventually develop a build up and need a lite cleaning.

Dwayne

sharkdude
07/08/2003, 05:56 PM
Absolutely Ingenious!

Main Entry: in·ge·nious
Pronunciation: in-'jEn-y&s

1: marked by especial aptitude at discovering, inventing, or contriving
2 : marked by originality, resourcefulness, and cleverness in conception or execution <an ingenious contraption>

Very impressive design and execution of a working prototype!
I am already envisioning less complex diy designs with same concept. Perhaps 2 gal buckets on a stacked shelf or one of those multiple plastic container rolling units would work?

Hmmm.... maybe even a surging refugium of sorts in a upper section? Continous slow feed from sump to elevated refugium that surges periodically small volumes down to main tank?

You stated its not intended to be a phyto reactor but is it a rotifer and brine shrimp reactor of sorts?

Any worries with cross contamination and culture crash in middle and bottom sections? (through the vent/fill tubes?)

You could have made a fortune on these things! At $299 a pop retail or wholesale volume. Very generous of you to give it away.

Dwayne
07/08/2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by sharkdude
You stated its not intended to be a phyto reactor but is it a rotifer and brine shrimp reactor of sorts?

I use rotifers and copepods in the middle section. They do seem to culture themselves. The Brine Shrimp do need to be replenished.

Any worries with cross contamination and culture crash in middle and bottom sections? (through the vent/fill tubes?)

No worries at all. :D The only time there is a physical 'connection' between the sections is when a surge is happening. The power of the surge is too great to allow anything to swim up stream. The vent/fill tubes are seperate and one for each lower section. Only way to cross contaminate is to pour the wrong type of live food down the wrong vent/fill tube.

Crashes may (probably will ;) ) happen, thats when you appreciate the ease of cleaning. :D

Dwayne

kkenn
07/13/2003, 08:30 AM
SALUTE What a good design,I hope someone could make a finish product to sell ,Thanks

Dwayne
07/13/2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by kkenn
SALUTE What a good design,I hope someone could make a finish product to sell ,Thanks

Thanks. The Geosapper in the article is pretty much a finished product.

Dwayne

Dag
07/14/2003, 11:27 AM
Dwayne, does the Geosapper have to be above the tank (gravity feed) or can some kind of pump be attached to the output?

If the former, I suppose it could be designed to fit into a tall canopy (but what about the heat?).

Dwayne
07/16/2003, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Dag
Dwayne, does the Geosapper have to be above the tank (gravity feed) or can some kind of pump be attached to the output?

Above tank is best, IMO. There would be difficulty in getting the pump to fire off at the right time with the surges to feed the tank. I think it might be possible to surge into the sump, but then you have the effects of sudden pressure changes destroying the live food.

If the former, I suppose it could be designed to fit into a tall canopy (but what about the heat?). [/B][/QUOTE]

My Geosapper sits off to the side of the tank at a level above the tank. Maybe with adequate ventilation inside a canopy could work.

Dwayne

Dag
07/16/2003, 08:03 PM
The sump seems best, but I'm not sure of the concerns regarding sudden pressure changes.

I think I would also be satisfied with a steady drip, rather than the surges.

Dwayne
07/16/2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Dag
The sump seems best, but I'm not sure of the concerns regarding sudden pressure changes.

The problem with a pump is it kills the live food. I don't think the impeller does as much killing as the 'force' of the water. The force is powerful enough to seperate the pods from their skin.

I think I would also be satisfied with a steady drip, rather than the surges.

A constant drip will work. I just prefer the surge because its allows a better 'mix' to be dumped into the tank. This is purely a personal observation, but is a method I found that works better for me than the constant drip.

FWIW

Dwayne

Dag
07/16/2003, 08:57 PM
The force is powerful enough to seperate the pods from their skin.

Pods? I thought it was phytoplankton (which should not be harmed by the pump) and rotifers (whatever those are).

Dwayne
07/16/2003, 09:10 PM
The Geosapper has three sections. The top section is phytoplankton. The middle is rotifers and copepods. The bottom section is for brine shrimp.

Any drip feeder can supply phytoplankton to a tank. Rotifers and copepods are zooplankton. The addition of zooplankton is where you get the real advantage of the Geosapper.

Live zooplankton, IMO, will trigger more feeding responses from tank inhabitants than feeding dead foods of equal size.

Dwayne

fjdevelopment
07/17/2003, 12:31 AM
the real question relates to - is is it really necessary to swooooo....sh it into the tank or is a continualy steady drip really not good enough. Can we really pre-predict the digestive cycles of the fish collectively? and time it perfectly to their individal needs? when is best right for each fish? or do we need to understand their individual feeding habit needs.

I think when I feel like feeding them comes closer to nature itself.

klas
07/17/2003, 07:19 AM
You must have had real fun creating this thing! Very nice thinking behind this idea!:)

What do you you think of making the first chamber larger, and add light? Wouldn't it be possible to have an ongoing culture in this first chamber, to eliminate the need for culturing the phytos in another place?

I have no experience with phytoplancton culturing, but I'm very interested to try, and have been thinking of some kind of continous (not batch) cultivation.

Maybe there is something I have missed in basic phytoculturing(like need for fertilizer) or something that makes this kind of continous phytoculturing in your device impossible?

regards, Klas

vmiller
07/17/2003, 07:29 AM
klas,
If they phyto crashes, you have no backup and are out of luck for 7 days and will probably need to buy DTs to feed your rotifers.

Dwayne
07/17/2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by fjdevelopment
the real question relates to - is is it really necessary to swooooo....sh it into the tank or is a continualy steady drip really not good enough. Can we really pre-predict the digestive cycles of the fish collectively? and time it perfectly to their individal needs? when is best right for each fish? or do we need to understand their individual feeding habit needs.

I think when I feel like feeding them comes closer to nature itself.

The reason for the surge as opposed to the drip is to get more variety into the tank. Use the brine shrimp as an example. With a drop method you have to count on the brine shrimp swimming into the drip tube or being pulled into the tube by the siphon caused by a single drop, staying in the tube, and then being dripped into the tank. With the surge method a siphon is created causing any brine shrimp in the area of the surge tube to be siphoned into the tank.

Now expand this idea to include phytoplankton, rotifers, copepods, and brine shrimp. Understanding the last section of the Geosapper would be holding all of these, the siphon created by a single drop is not sufficient to pull all these into the tank.

By having periodic surges of multiple live foods the Geosapper allows the tank to be continuously fed (similar to a constant drip) but in surges that contain a variety of live foods (unlike the drip method).

On the road to the Geosapper, I used many different techniques to try and feed the tank live food. There were pros and cons to almost everyone of the ideas I tried. The Geosapper provided the best results. The drawback to the Geosapper (discussed earlier in this thread) is the need to have it above the tank. Other than that, I haven't found any other drawbacks.

Dwayne

fjdevelopment
07/17/2003, 08:52 AM
Dwayne:

I am in the process of putting together a system for my tank.

My reactors have bubblers in them to try and keep the entire mix even throughout.

My thought was to use dosing pumps to dispense the liquids to the tank periodically which I plan to control with my Neptune Controller.

Any thoughts?

John

Dwayne
07/17/2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by klas
What do you you think of making the first chamber larger, and add light? Wouldn't it be possible to have an ongoing culture in this first chamber, to eliminate the need for culturing the phytos in another place?

The first section could be made larger to allow for more phytoplankton. I would be very hesitant in making it a phytoplankton reactor. If it were a phytoplankton reactor, it would be almost impossible to drip out good phytoplankton as opposed to weaker or underdeveloped phytoplankton.

A thought I had was to incorporate phytoplankton reactors external to the Geosapper. If the culture process was perfected and you knew every 7 days a culture would be at peak development, it could dump into the top section of Geosapper. By having 7 phytoplankton reactors, you could have fresh phytoplankton everyday. Now all we have to do is perfect the culture process, auto dump the phytoplankton to the Geosapper, and auto fill and start the next phytoplankton culture. ;)

Dwayne

fjdevelopment
07/17/2003, 08:59 AM
Dwayne:

My thoughts are to dose sterile water into the plankton reactor daily and let the same amount of cultured plankton water then overflow out to the Rotifer reactor and so on.... By controlling input dosing you could then time the output at say 1/7th per day.
To say it simply it would be like a waterfall...

What do yo think?

Dwayne
07/17/2003, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by fjdevelopment
My thought was to use dosing pumps to dispense the liquids to the tank periodically which I plan to control with my Neptune Controller.

Dosing pumps should work fine. My reasons for not going with the dosing pumps was the cost and the possibility of failure. Omit the cost factor and dosing pumps are a good choice. Another factor will be a holding area for each type of live food and the need to feed or fill each of these holding areas.

Dwayne

fjdevelopment
07/17/2003, 09:12 AM
I am happy to hear you concur.

I am interested in the unit you have made and think that maybe it is a good addition to what I am making, although under my theory I may not need to create multiple chambers because the liquids flow from one to another.

Dwayne
07/17/2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by fjdevelopment
My thoughts are to dose sterile water into the plankton reactor daily and let the same amount of cultured plankton water then overflow out to the Rotifer reactor and so on.... By controlling input dosing you could then time the output at say 1/7th per day.
To say it simply it would be like a waterfall...

What do yo think?

What you're referring to is a continuous phyto reactor. I know some folks have come close to getting this to work, but I haven't seen one actually working yet. If one had a working continuous phyto reactor, then YES it could be incorporated and be really cool :smokin:

Dwayne

Dwayne
07/17/2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by vmiller
klas,
If they phyto crashes, you have no backup and are out of luck for 7 days and will probably need to buy DTs to feed your rotifers.

Agreed.

Dwayne

fjdevelopment
07/17/2003, 09:24 AM
klas:

You can always take a little phytoplankton from your reactor and store it away in the refrigerator just like DT's

bcjm
07/18/2003, 09:34 AM
1. How do you calculate the dripping rate to control your rotifer population? It seems to me that it is almost impossible not to over/under harvest the rotifers.

2. You still need to hatch BBS externally then add them to the bottom section right?

Dwayne
07/18/2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by bcjm
1. How do you calculate the dripping rate to control your rotifer population? It seems to me that it is almost impossible not to over/under harvest the rotifers.

The level of difficulty in maintaining a specific density of rotifers is dependent on the application. For "just" feeding a tank it is not necessary to maintain an exact density. Another example is using the Geosapper to feed fry. Then a higher density is required. In the case of over-harvesting (too low a density), the rotifer level in the Geosapper can be supplemented by adding rotifers via the vent/fill tube for the rotifer section.

2. You still need to hatch BBS externally then add them to the bottom section right?

Yes. I highly recommend hatching the brine shrimp externally and then adding them to the bottom section of the Geosapper.

Dwayne

fjdevelopment
07/19/2003, 05:09 PM
Dwaye:

I you have not already read "Plankton Culture Manual" by Frank and Terry Snell I highly recomend it.

It is available through Florida Aqua Farms, Inc.

John

Dwayne
07/19/2003, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by fjdevelopment
Dwaye:

I you have not already read "Plankton Culture Manual" by Frank and Terry Snell I highly recomend it.

It is available through Florida Aqua Farms, Inc.

John

Yes, I have read it. It is very good information.

Dwayne

Dag
07/19/2003, 08:56 PM
The force is powerful enough to seperate the pods from their skin.

So the same problem would be for those who have their refugium going to sump, right? If so, those who are content to run their refugium through the sump, should also be OK with running the geosapper through the sump ...

Dwayne
07/19/2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Dag
So the same problem would be for those who have their refugium going to sump, right? If so, those who are content to run their refugium through the sump, should also be OK with running the geosapper through the sump ...

If you are happy running your refugium through your sump, then you should be happy running thge Geosapper in the same manner.

Dwayne

Dag
07/19/2003, 09:23 PM
Happy? No choice, and it seems better than no refugium at all.

Rod Buehler
07/20/2003, 06:45 AM
Hey D.
You and Geo have a very cool item here!
I am planning a getto version (maybe out of the Rubbermaid stackable droors on wheels, like someone mentioned) but im thinking of making it a bit larger and adding a 4th section. The 4th/bottom section will house a sand bed and some mysids. I think i will call it the DeWebber ;) Whatca think?

Rod Buehler
07/20/2003, 06:45 AM
Hey D.
You and Geo have a very cool item here!
I am planning a getto version (maybe out of the Rubbermaid stackable droors on wheels, like someone mentioned) but im thinking of making it a bit larger and adding a 4th section. The 4th/bottom section will house a sand bed and some mysids. I think i will call it the DeWebber ;) Whatca think?

Dwayne
07/20/2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Rod Buehler
Hey D.
You and Geo have a very cool item here!
I am planning a getto version (maybe out of the Rubbermaid stackable droors on wheels, like someone mentioned) but im thinking of making it a bit larger and adding a 4th section. The 4th/bottom section will house a sand bed and some mysids. I think i will call it the DeWebber ;) Whatca think?

LOL at DeWebber

A fourth stage with mysis would be interesting. I've been saying I was going to try to culture mysis, but I haven't done it yet.

Dwayne

tgeiger
08/06/2003, 01:55 PM
I just wanted to let you know I just finish building mine. I'm using 5L #7 Tupperware containers. Right now I only have 2 levels, but plan to add a 3rd in a few days.

The biggest problem I had was figuring out how to get the tubing through the containers. I ended up with 3 solutions.
1) For rigid tubing, drill 3/16" hole, stick the tube through, and Crazy Glue it and seal with silicon sealant (both sides).
2) For fill/vent tube, used 1/2" PVC male threaded elbow. The tupperware container wall is thin enough that it auto-threads.
3) Picked up some sprinkler 1/4" barb unions. They have a nice flat peice in the middle that glues well to the tupperware container.

Thanks for a great idea!

-Tom

vmiller
08/06/2003, 02:25 PM
Geo is selling these at a very reasonable price. I have one waiting for me at my door step :)

Chris_Reef
09/20/2003, 01:07 PM
This looks very cool! For those of you who have built or bought one.. how do you like it?

vmiller
09/20/2003, 02:16 PM
For the past month I have been fighting cyano. As a result I haven't been feeding live food and haven't had a chance to try out the geosapper.

The cyano is gone for the most part so hopefully I'll be able to start using it soon.

Vin

darrellh
09/21/2003, 12:43 AM
Hi Dwayne,

The Geosapper looks like a great idea. Thanks for sharing your ingenuity with the masses. I had a question about the phytoplankton. Does the phyto have to be live, or can it be the frozen concetrate form like Brine Shrimps Direct's Tahitian Blend?

Thanks,
Darrell

Dwayne
09/21/2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by darrellh
The Geosapper looks like a great idea. Thanks for sharing your ingenuity with the masses. I had a question about the phytoplankton. Does the phyto have to be live, or can it be the frozen concetrate form like Brine Shrimps Direct's Tahitian Blend?


Thanks.

The phyto can be any type that works. Not meaning that in a 'smart' way, but all is good as long as the zooplankton is mulitplying.

FWIW

Dwayne

RogueCorps
09/23/2003, 04:06 PM
Hey Dwayne,

I use Carlson type surges on my nano tanks and you and George's Geosapper is quite a cool application of them.

I realize the drip and surge rates will vary on the application, but could you describe the rates of drip and surge on your system and approximately how long that volume of phytoplankton lasts before refilling?

Also when stage 2 surges, is it usual that stage 3 will fire directly after it or does it take a number of surges from stage 2 to make stage 3 surge?

I guess live phytoplankton is the way to go since it's already at room temperature. Instant algae and Tahitian Blend need to be kept refrigerated. As long as the phyto could be kept in good shape I could see enlarging stage 1 for longer running periods, and maybe for Tahitian Blend a small IceProbe chiller could be added as well.

Truly a very cool design and excellent fabrication from your buddy George. Great job!

-Rogue :)

Dwayne
09/23/2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by RogueCorps
I realize the drip and surge rates will vary on the application, but could you describe the rates of drip and surge on your system and approximately how long that volume of phytoplankton lasts before refilling?

I have adjusted it to last for roughly a 24hr period.

Also when stage 2 surges, is it usual that stage 3 will fire directly after it or does it take a number of surges from stage 2 to make stage 3 surge?

The unit I have is set up so Stage 3 goes right after Stage 2. It would be possible to change the set up to require mulitple Stage 2 surges prior to Stage 3 surging. This is done by adjusting the 'length' of the the bend in the surge tube. Making Stage 3 larger than Stage 2 will require more Stage 2 surges prior to Stage 3 surging.

Thanks

Dwayne

nameless
05/18/2004, 01:50 PM
This may be the dumbest question ever, but I'm new to DIY, so I'm going to ask anyway.

With the surge tube having a downward bend like that, how does the siphon get 'reestablished' after it breaks at the end of a surge?

Also, what percentage of each holding area do you 'surge' out? In the plans, it looks like about half, but I wasn't sure if that was just for plan purposes....

No one has posted on this thread in a long time. Are people that used this still using it? Is it working?

Dwayne
05/18/2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by nameless
With the surge tube having a downward bend like that, how does the siphon get 'reestablished' after it breaks at the end of a surge?

The surge will restart once the water level rises above the bend.

Also, what percentage of each holding area do you 'surge' out? In the plans, it looks like about half, but I wasn't sure if that was just for plan purposes....

The length of the bend determines the amount that is surged out. In particular the length of the downward pointing piece. The water has to drop below that to break the siphon. This is one way of determining the amount that is actually surged.

No one has posted on this thread in a long time. Are people that used this still using it? Is it working?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am. Yes, it works wonderful.

Dwayne

Submarine_Street
05/24/2004, 11:13 PM
Hello, I have just saw your Geosapper today on Reefkeeping Online and I was extremely amazed by your idea. Earlier you said in the third chamber the brine shimps have to be always refilled. I was wondering would there be another type of culture that can substitue the brine shimp in the third chamber but doesn't have to be refilled and would constantly reproduce like the copepods?

nameless
05/25/2004, 08:43 AM
maybe mysis?

Submarine_Street
05/25/2004, 10:58 AM
I guess that could work, to tell you the truth I'm just a big lazy noob when it comes to cuture, that's why Dwayne's invention got my attention since it saves of time and work. :D Thanks for the advice. :)

Dwayne
05/26/2004, 06:16 PM
Mysis might not reproduce fast enough. Whatever is used in the second and third chambers will need to reproduce quickly.

Let us know if you try something different and your results.

Submarine_Street
06/02/2004, 02:54 PM
Oh darn, if I find something that can keep on reproduce I'll let you know.

Sparky0028
06/24/2004, 07:08 AM
Great idea but I have a quick question, how often do you have to refill the second and third section.
Rich

Dwayne
06/25/2004, 10:09 AM
Refilling any of the chambers will be dependent on the size of the Geosapper and the frequency of the surges. It is possible to have the second chamber, when used as described for rotifers, maintain a sufficient level by itself. This means you only have to add baby brine to the 3rd section and phyto to the first.

Dwayne

jonny1972
07/10/2004, 08:56 PM
Don't mean to but in but I am any way...lol. The company I work for can order this tubing through a plastics dealer. I'm going to build it and scrap the Coke bottles. Thanks for the idea Dwayne:D
Also about how much did it cost to build if you don't mind me asking?

norfolkgarden
03/16/2019, 11:22 AM
Ah, the wonders of internet search. In 2019 I run across this thread.

It looked like a fantastic product.

Geos reef is still up and running and looks like it serves up some amazing and beautifully detailed items.

The idea of mixing phyto and pods and baby brine shrimp and semi auto feeding it on a random schedule sounds fantastic.

The geosapper is not listed in their catalog. Searching their site under geosapper or surge feeder produces no results.

Was it price to buy, ease of use, further refinements under a new name?

Is anyone still using this product or a similar one?

Thank you
Matt