Calling ZEOVIT Quits

[drw94]

So today I made up my mind that I was calling it quits with zeovit. There are multiple reason why I am doing this. I do believe the system works. I had developed some amazing colors on my corals. With a system like zeo I believe your are running your system on the edge and need to always be tinkering with it. There is no doubt there are dozens of tanks that run zeo successfully. Thomas Pohl has done an amazing job perfecting a system like this. Here are my reasons for discontinuing zeo. I love to tinker with my tank, but it has become to time consuming. I felt like I was neglecting my children as I was tinkering all the time. I need a system that is much more hands off and simpler. Two of my favorite corals never responded well to the zeo. My purple rim cap lost all of its color, and my montipora stellata lost its tissue on the shaded areas. I believe this is due to two things, me running too much carbon and second the tank was too clean. Lastly I kinda got bored with the whole process. Like I said it got too time consuming for me. I never really got to sit back and enjoy my tank because I was trying to observe every little thing so I could properly dose that tank.

So at this point I am going to step back and reevaluate my tank. I want to still keep SPS so I am going the Carbon/GFO route to minimize nutrients. And if that don't work, a softy tank is in my future. I have been keeping SPS for about 10 years now. I tried zeo on a whime, and gracefully bowing out. To much work, not enough reward. I have never kept anemones before, so that might be an interesting challenge if the GFO/Carbon route is too time consuming as well.

Any input on how to make a SPS tank less time consuming I am all ears.

[TreyK]

Hook up a biopellet reactor, run carbon and gfo, and feed well.

[fcmatt]

well, your wallet will be happy based on the prices i see for a full zeo system and refills.

carbon and gfo here. minimal fish that i feed daily with water changes twice a month.
about the only test i should check more often is alk. otherwise pretty easy. a few hours
every two weeks.

[drw94]

Do you dose anything with biopellets. I can't wait to enjoy my tank more. Before I get the gfo and carbon online, i am going to let the tank settle after stopping zeo and go from there.

[oneradtek202]

i agree that zeo just is too dang expensive and too much to do. love the saying, "keep it simple stupid"

[TreyK]

Just the main three really, cal alk and mag. Sometimes ill throw some k balance, b balance or pohls in there. dont know if it does much but its fun lol.

[edsreef]

Dose vinegar automatically with a dosing pump/controller. Run carbon and occaisonal GFO as needed. Works for me.

[stanlalee]

Or um just run the tank old school: good equipment (lighting, skimmer which I assume you already have) and do water changes once in a while. Since when did Zeo and carbon dosing become REQUIRED to be successful. The best success I ever had with SPS was before carbon dosing became a known technique (I had skimmer, cheato, UV sterilizer, two tangs and four anthias that got fed two/three times of day. worked wonderfully. EVERY SPS looked better in a month or two than when I purchased them and growth was fast). If you dont want to be cleaning glass panes and have a clean tank without much maintenance squirt an appropriate amount of vodka daily (or every other day for that matter) and call it a day. That's all that's needed to keep a "clean" system and it will even fade your monti's too if done aggressively.

[bogg]

What products do you have left!!

[drw94]

I have bac, biomate, zz, aahc, bb, start 3, k balance, some zeoliths, CV, extra, extra special, jod and zeo food. Are you interested in some? I am going to keep some but others I can part with.

[rodneyri]

I run rowaphos and carbon and love it. you need to enjoy your tank not be a slave to it.

I add a capful of b-balance and k-balance daily when feeding but thats it

[Aqualund]

I have a bare bottom tank with gfo, calc reactor, good skimming and remote dsb. I was running pellets until the remote dsb became effective, once it was online I removed the pellets and dont dose carbon. I have <.064 nitrates and 0 phosphates. the only thing I check regularly and supplement is alkalinity, everything else stays very stable and I also do weekly 20% water change just because. Its very hands off but just enough to keep me interested as I mess with coloration supplementation...if i want to.

[acroholicreefer]

I don't run anything, including carbon and gfo. The only thing I do is skim well and dose ATO via kalk reactor. This allows me to really appreciate my reef and the acros look great.

[MammothReefer]

I'm just doing gfo/and carbon as well. I'm finally getting good colours out of some of my stuff it just takes a little extra in the water change world, being a bit careful with your feeding, and being more diligent on my parameter movement. I keep thinking more and more however about adding biopellets back on. Even though my phosphates, and nitrates are rather in a good range. I'm starting to see an increase in nuisance algae which is the result in the addition feeding I've done lately so I want to nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand. I ran biopellet for some time they seemed to work well, however now I'm a bit cautious about making any changes as I have a lot more invested in my tank now then I did when I initially ran them.

[reefereef]

Bio pellets here, a big skimmer and lots of food, very low maintenance, and no water changes

[MammothReefer]

Bio pellets here, a big skimmer and lots of food, very low maintenance, and no water changes

Really no water changes.. lol.. how. I demand pics!

[drw94]

It's good to see that many of you run gfo/ carbon. Gives me confidence that my tank will rebound nicely after it gets all the zeo products out of its system. I am still going to run RBS until it runs out and then switch to TMP. The RBS is also a pain in the ..s, you have to really dry mix initially or you get way wacky reading. I am glad I tried zeo, all these new methods will really advance our hobby. It still blow my mind that I can grow SPS with only 50 watts of LEDs. Thank for all the great input.

[drw94]

I am running a 60 cube with roughly 50 us gallons net. What amounts of gfo and carbon should I run. My reactor will run from a tee line off my return pump so I can control the volumn of water passing through them.

[Chris Lakies]

Im running just biopellets right now along with carbon in sock and with heavy skimming... Happy so far.

[Allmost]

just a FYI, but changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank. and the bacteria removing nutritions. so be carefull :)

removing carbon source, would mean death of most bacteria you have cultured, so again, be carefull going off Zeo. or in fact any other bacterioplankton system which is holding water quality in check :)

it can be alot of work ... till you find a balance ... which is usually 3-6 months ... its prety smooth after.

[msp307]

just a FYI, but changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank. and the bacteria removing nutritions. so be carefull :)

removing carbon source, would mean death of most bacteria you have cultured, so again, be carefull going off Zeo. or in fact any other bacterioplankton system which is holding water quality in check :)

it can be alot of work ... till you find a balance ... which is usually 3-6 months ... its prety smooth after.

Carbon source? Like going from zeo start3 to reef biofuel

[Allmost]

Carbon source? Like going from zeo start3 to reef biofuel

yes. they all feed different bacteria ...

[msp307]

I've seen nice tanks on the zeo website that use Mb7 instead of zeo bak and reef biofuel instead of start3.

[allsps40]

All I do is run GFO and carbon and regular water changes. I did the MB7 vodka thing for a while but I agree it is to much work and runs the tank right on the edge of being way to clean. While the tank stayed super clean corals paled. GFO carbon, water changes and stability are the key and it has always worked very well for me so I am just sticking to it. No more jumping into the latest dosing craze for me.

[StarF]

Really no water changes.. lol.. how. I demand pics!


I run my system the same way, i tryed zeo but it was to much work, and to expensive, and i fealt that you really ran the system on the edge all the time. So i am running biopellets + calc reactor. No water changes what so ever, i cant see a reason to change the water, unless you are having isues.. I dont use Rowa, i sometimes use a little active carbon but not all the time, and i do add 2ml of vsv every day, to help keep the po4 down, but other than that its pretty easy to keep. And i think my colors and growth are ok. (the reason i dont use rowa for po4, is becaus i feel it strips my water to much, and i get pale colors then. My hanna meter measures 0.0 on po4 even if i run with out.. ) also the only things i am adding besides what my system is getting from the calc reactor is, kalium and amino acid. i add kalium when i feel my blue colors are a bit off..

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6555225819_ff420e2b8f_b.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6107/6251065297_df49846a26_b.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6219/6390930417_9a6e34dbfd_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6120/6251065591_bce860c9dd_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6105/6390928615_6e6e81a814_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6118/6390927745_c10bd51cb1_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6231/6251591810_55a50ab76e_z.jpg

[allsps40]

Not doing water changes will catch up with you sooner or later.

[StarF]

Not doing water changes will catch up with you sooner or later.

Naaa.. TBH its overrated. i know a lot of persons who are running stunning sps system with out water changes, for several years.. I know 2 who are running on their 4´th year. I my self, have had several system, where i never changed any water, unless there was something wrong.

My view is, the "You MUST change 10% water volume each week" myth was started by the salt industry, to sell more salt. But it also depens on what kind of system you are running, some change water to avoid ion balance isues and so on. But i dont see that being a problem if you run calcium reactor, instead of balling.

Here is another system running with out water changes:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1975963

[Allmost]

I've seen nice tanks on the zeo website that use Mb7 instead of zeo bak and reef biofuel instead of start3.

please try to read my post more carefully before judging :)

"changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank."
and I nevere said if one source is superior to another ! I said change will bring change :) .....


Hope you will read more carefull now :)

you are welcome to ask any chemist guru if different carbon sources indeed do promote different bacteria strains.

lol

[rick12]

please try to read my post more carefully before judging :)

"changing your carbon source, will change the biology of the tank."
and I nevere said if one source is superior to another ! I said change will bring change :) .....


Hope you will read more carefull now :)

you are welcome to ask any chemist guru if different carbon sources indeed do promote different bacteria strains.

lol
Allmost, what are your thoughts or opinions on no water change?
thanks

[Allmost]

Allmost, what are your thoughts or opinions on no water change?
thanks


IMHO, there are 2 aspects to water changes, lowering nutritions or replacing elements in seawater. (as Randy explained in his article)

in a SPS tank main nutrition export should be bacteria, coral growth, and removal of excess bacteria by skimmer[replace bacteria with algae growth for non-bacterioplankton systems]. if equilibrium with this regard is met[import = exort], then water chagnes would have no effect on nutrition [or might even be counter productive !!, as you could loose too many bacteria, and might take a couple days or hours for equilibrium to be met again. in theory]

other important aspect is replacing lost elements or deluting of the ones you have dosed too much of ! but with the new balling methods(ones that count for sulfate, and also ionic balance), and even a good calcium reactor with good media, this problem can be overseen as well. although it will take alot of experience ...

for me myself, my tanks are usually overstocked nad I feed too much(I like fat fishes and I just cant lie !) , and I am not too carefull with element dosing [besides kh and ca++] so a weekly or bi weekly water change is always on my list. but I do believe we can do without, if we plan correctly, use ca++ RX, have not too many fish, feed them less, have appropriate skimmer, and more importantly, know your animals/corals and what they are telling you.

[MammothReefer]

you guys are nuts hahah. If I don't do water changes regularly I see a fast steady decline in my tank. Granted I've known other people who could get away without them, and I've even know people who have grown sps with nothing more then a return pump and a tiny rio in a rather large system. My tanks unfortunately for me requires a lot of attentiveness in my part. They always have.

[Allmost]

you guys are nuts hahah. If I don't do water changes regularly I see a fast steady decline in my tank.

why is that though ?

either nutritions raise up
or certain element you dose isnt used up. [so it builds up to toxic levels]
or certain element you do not dose is used up. [ so it falls below aceptable levels]
or through balling salts, ionic balance is lost.

I personally cant think of anything else ! so if you figure which one of the above is the problem, and correct that, then you might be able to get away with less water changes :)

not that Im advertising for no water changes ... :) often to achieve that, you have to do more work than a simple water change :)

[rick12]

can you explain ionic balance lost through balling salts?
why is that though ?

either nutritions raise up
or certain element you dose isnt used up. [so it builds up to toxic levels]
or certain element you do not dose is used up. [ so it falls below aceptable levels]
or through balling salts, ionic balance is lost.

I personally cant think of anything else ! so if you figure which one of the above is the problem, and correct that, then you might be able to get away with less water changes :)

not that Im advertising for no water changes ... :) often to achieve that, you have to do more work than a simple water change :)

[coralreefdoc]

DRW94. I would seriously consider not discontinuing ZEOvit, due to the time consuming nature of it alone. You will undoubtedly be tinkering more for the next few months trying to implement a different nutrient control. Yes. ZEOvit can be time consuming, however, it can also be ran very successfully without tinkering everday ! Realistically, you should be tweaking dosages/making small changes no more than on a weekly basis i.e. A change in dosage should be followed by weekly/bi-weekly observation of those changes on the system as a whole, before considering/implementing any further changes. "highlight the observation part".

If you still decide to discontinue ZEOvit, please PM me as I would be interested in purchasing your unused ZEOproducts ... Thanks

Be careful with BioPellets if you decide to go this option !

[MammothReefer]

why is that though ?

either nutritions raise up
or certain element you dose isnt used up. [so it builds up to toxic levels]
or certain element you do not dose is used up. [ so it falls below aceptable levels]
or through balling salts, ionic balance is lost.

I personally cant think of anything else ! so if you figure which one of the above is the problem, and correct that, then you might be able to get away with less water changes :)

not that Im advertising for no water changes ... :) often to achieve that, you have to do more work than a simple water change :)

I wish I could tell you, it would be great to never have to do water changes again. However I've ran a lot of different tanks over the years, a lot of different ways. From no fish, to heavy stocked, .5 gallon nanos to 500gallon systems, skimmer-less, and over skimmed, calcium reactors, bionic, 2 part, Vodka, biopellets, sugar, zeo combos, nsw only, cheap salt, $$ salt. I've always found (with the exception of a few small nanos that just had softie/lps). I have to stay on top of water changes or my corals just don't responds (speaking of sps ). Sometimes it was measurable in the increase of nitrates, but sometimes not, as with my current tank. I wish I could pin point what is being depleted or added in excess but for the last couple sps systems I have no been able to tell week from week the numbers all avg over time yet if I don't do water changes growth will get stunted and then I will eventually start to see a decline in the utilization of alkalinity and calcium which will result in a surplus of alk/calc unless I am constantly changing my doser setting. That will result in a swing which can be detrimental.

[Allmost]

can you explain ionic balance lost through balling salts?

raise of salinity and build up of sodium chloride.

remember balling we dose sodium carbonate
and Calcium Chloride

carbonate and calcium are used to make caco3 [calcium carbonate]

leaving us with excessive NACL, compared to other elements in seawater.

if you look up Randy's article he touches on it [the two part article, end of it.] and that is why for example Fauna marine's balling adds NACL free salt, to bring the concentration of other elements up to where they should be with regards to new concentration of sodium chloride.

a weekly water change of 5-10% will take care of that.

B-ionic claims to have taken care of this. they say their additive is ionically balanced, which means the CA++ part contains residue of other elements.

[nrike]

(I like fat fishes and I just cant lie !) That's funny

[Moser]

yes. they all feed different bacteria ...

That's news.... Which different ones do they feed?.

Thanks
Mo

[Allmost]

That's news.... Which different ones do they feed?.

Thanks
Mo

Hello Mo :)

I am not a biologist to know exactly what strain of bacteria each carbon source promotes/feeds, but I know they feed different ones, with different C:N:P ratios, and and some carbon sources like acetate can also feed some higher organisms as well ! hence why changing the carbon source, changes the biology of the reef tank.

would be amazing to have a study of the C:N:P of different bacteria strains ! as what they use now is just C:N:P ratio of marine algae ... !

would love to see upates on your beautiful reef Mo :)

[drw94]

Here is an updated FTS after the rebuild. Everything is doing great, tons of growth. I only do 2 part and kalk. I feed corals 2-3 time a week with oysterfest, and rotifeast.

[bigbuckdown]

you have 7 frags in there of SPS. What time consumed you in taking care of 7 frags? im not judging you or mocking you but i have a full blown sps tank.i cant even see my rocks anymore and i have enough time to do the family thing and the reef thing

[karsseboom]

you have 7 frags in there of SPS. What time consumed you in taking care of 7 frags? im not judging you or mocking you but i have a full blown sps tank.i cant even see my rocks anymore and i have enough time to do the family thing and the reef thing

ouch!

[Allmost]

you have 7 frags in there of SPS. What time consumed you in taking care of 7 frags? im not judging you or mocking you but i have a full blown sps tank.i cant even see my rocks anymore and i have enough time to do the family thing and the reef thing

WOW!

talkabout being rude ....

[Jarred1]

Allmost can you send me a link to read about balling or what it is? I just started to notice people use it in post and just can't figure out what it is.

Thanks


Sent from my iPod using Tapatalk

[Alex T.]

Naaa.. TBH its overrated. i know a lot of persons who are running stunning sps system with out water changes, for several years.. I know 2 who are running on their 4´th year. I my self, have had several system, where i never changed any water, unless there was something wrong.

My view is, the "You MUST change 10% water volume each week" myth was started by the salt industry, to sell more salt. But it also depens on what kind of system you are running, some change water to avoid ion balance isues and so on. But i dont see that being a problem if you run calcium reactor, instead of balling.

Here is another system running with out water changes:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1975963


I feel that the people using this MO are in the extreme minority. Claiming that our trained eyes can evaluate all the major and minor trace element ratios and depletions as opposed to providing them in balance with regular water changes is wishful thinking. This methodology assumes that a system can be run naturally and in balance. As natural as we'd like to believe our systems are, they're not.

Water changes aren't a myth created by the salt industry. I know of nobody that doesn't see a better reaction in their corals a few hours after performing one. I'm not saying it can't be done, but having that safety net is worth its' weight in salt (pun intended).

[drw94]

Apparently I posted the updated pic on the wrong thread, it was meant for a thread I started after my tank crashed after I stopped zeo. So people don't have to find the other thread and the person that says my 7 frags shouldn't take to much time to care for i'll recap what happened.
When I stopped zeo some how my tank biology got all messed up and I ended up losing all corals. The only creatures to survive were my fish, a clam, and a frag. I ended up throwing everything away including live rock and starting over. I lost 2 years worth of coral growth, so it was much more than seven frags( it accually 11, 1 clam, and 1 LPS) I have in the tank currently. My reasons for stopping zeo was because it took to much time to take care of the tank, i didn't enjoy it anymore. I have 2 small children, my wife and I both work 50+ hours a week, and personally I would rather spend time with them instead of dosing a dozen of chemicals on a daily basis. Since the switch to non zeo system I enjoy the tank much more, the growth rates are the same but the color is different(still looks good).

I guess dealing with these threads some people can't help them selves with their comments.

[jbannick18]

75 gallon stocked full of sps and 12 fish,

skim a little wet, have chaeto, dose kalk/vinegar through ato, weekly 10 gal wc. works great for me the past year and only spend an hr a week on the tank.

[NatureNerd]

75 gallon stocked full of sps and 12 fish,

skim a little wet, have chaeto, dose kalk/vinegar through ato, weekly 10 gal wc. works great for me the past year and only spend an hr a week on the tank.

Same here but no vinegar and 5g every week. I feed light though. If you don't count feeding and glass cleaning, 20 minutes per week is it for me.

I like watching the fish eat so that is probably more than 5 minutes per day or at least 40 more minutes per week. But that is not work.

[stevedola]

Really no water changes.. lol.. how. I demand pics!

IME if you have a larger system and its well established you can go many months if not years without water changes. Ive seen plenty of well established SPS tanks that are awesome and the owners dont do anything in the lines of waterchanges. They have big skimmers and cal reactors and are careful not to overfeed which is where a lot of people get caught up. A well established tank will almost sustain livestock without feedings from its algea and pod populations as long as the tank isnt over stocked.

[stevedola]

Also after many years in this hobby the trained human eye can distinguish certain abnormalities in their tanks inhabitants. One of my close reef friends can tell by just looking if his mag is alittle low or if hhis alk has dipped alittle by the way some of his colonies are looking. Just because you dont believe doesnt mean its not possible. BTW, his tank *which is amazing* hasnt had a water change in almost a year...minority---yes but very plausible non the less.

I am by no means advocating that everyone stops WCs...just stating that there is a contingent of reefers that have successfully maintained SPS systems without WCs. I personally do biweekly waterchanges. 1 for peace of mind and 2 to export whatever excess nutrients have built up over those 2 weeks. But then again, I have a smaller tank that hasnt been completely stable for years like the systems im referencing and prolly have too many fishes for the amount of water I have in my system.

[MammothReefer]

If I could do that I would rent my self out as a tank consulting. Traveling the lands telling people to fix their alk.

[Allmost]

Apparently I posted the updated pic on the wrong thread, it was meant for a thread I started after my tank crashed after I stopped zeo. So people don't have to find the other thread and the person that says my 7 frags shouldn't take to much time to care for i'll recap what happened.
When I stopped zeo some how my tank biology got all messed up and I ended up losing all corals. The only creatures to survive were my fish, a clam, and a frag. I ended up throwing everything away including live rock and starting over. I lost 2 years worth of coral growth, so it was much more than seven frags( it accually 11, 1 clam, and 1 LPS) I have in the tank currently. My reasons for stopping zeo was because it took to much time to take care of the tank, i didn't enjoy it anymore. I have 2 small children, my wife and I both work 50+ hours a week, and personally I would rather spend time with them instead of dosing a dozen of chemicals on a daily basis. Since the switch to non zeo system I enjoy the tank much more, the growth rates are the same but the color is different(still looks good).

I guess dealing with these threads some people can't help them selves with their comments.

yea O2 deletion is always a big problem with bacterioplankton systems ...

honestly, I use zeovit, to cut down large water change and to cut down time wasted on cutting back algae in fuge ... but what ever works for you better :)

[DeathMagnetic]

you have 7 frags in there of SPS. What time consumed you in taking care of 7 frags? im not judging you or mocking you but i have a full blown sps tank.i cant even see my rocks anymore and i have enough time to do the family thing and the reef thing


BigBuck.. lets see some pictures of that tank !!!