Treating ich with hyposalinity

[Tigerlusken]

Since I'm stupid and didnt put my new fish in quarantine I now have Ich in my tank. I read all the stickies about hyposalinity and ich in general, so I went out to buy a new tank, waterheater, filter (standard one with air thingy) and a bunch of new test kits.

Im mixing new water in the tank now, planning to use 50% from the old tank and 50% new water. It will take some time to heat up so hopefully someone here can help me plan this while I wait.

Fish to be treated: c. bicolor (new fish, only one with a few white spots), a. ocellaris, p.fridmani, p. kauderni.

I did get some ph buffer (salifert) from the LFS, but read that this is no good at low salinity and that I should try with baking soda instead.

Does any brand of baking soda work?
Should I consider moving my inverts and corals to the new tank instead (cleaner shrimp, few snails and 3 tiny hermit crabs), and then do hyposalinity in the tank theyre already in?
If the ph drops, do I add the baked baking soda to the water that will go in at next water change? How do I calculate how much I need? If the ph is 8, and then drop to 7.9 I make sure the new water going in got ph 8 so it slowly go up or I overdo it so when mixed itll go even higher?

I'm using a refractometer, how do I know it's 100% accurate? Should I get a second one of these too?

I got some aquaroche (fake LS) left over, can I use these to make some hiding places for my fish in the empty tank? If not what can I use that dont float?

Not looking forward to try to catch the dottyback and the dwarfangel :(

I got alot of stupid questions, so I really hope someone can help me save my fish. :sad2: I feel really cluesless on this so I hope I can make it.

[Tigerlusken]

All fish except the p.fridmani in the new tank now. He is hiding, probably inside a rock or something.

I put some glass bowls and plates with dark color in the tank theyll spend the next 12 weeks, hopefully this will provide enough hidingplaces for them.

I'm at 1.024 now so will drop it to 1.0235 in an hour or so. Think I will have to go very slow and spread it over 3 days instead of 2 as tomorrow will be a busy day.

Also got "baking soda", the pure version Na2CO3 sodium carbonate, do I add this to the freshwater going in? and how much of it. My ph is only 7.9 atm so it will have to go up slowly as it will go down again when the salinity goes down. This is not easy :worried2: (Couldnt raise it right away as I had to move the fish from the main tank to this one).'

I need to find a suitable filter material as well, as it need to be thrown everyday. Should I use a standard cleaning sponge, or do I need to find something else like polyester fill?

[Haffs09]

I've just finished my second round of hypo on my system. Two months after my first attempt, I had another ich outbreak. So, I gave it another shot and have just finished the second round of hypo. Over the course of the two treatments, I spent a lot of time thinking about why the first round failed (it will still be a couple of months before I conclude whether the second round worked). Here are a couple things I considered:

1. My refractometer wasn't accurate at the lower s.g. There's an article in the archives that detail how to create your own calibration fluid and making one at the normal and lower s.g. levels is probably a good idea.

2. Maybe I took too long to lower s.g. I took 7-10 days to bring it down to 1.009. My system is 500 gallons, and I couldn't make enough RODI water fast enough to lower it over the course of two days. Due to the long time to reach hypo conditions, possibly the ich had the capability to adapt to the lower conditions?

I watched my pH during the first round of hypo, and it never fell below 7.9 so, I didn't adjust. I also had 350lbs of live rock so, I'm pretty sure that helped buffer the water. I never adjusted the pH so, I can't help you in that regard.

There are several posts in this thread that might give you some ideas too.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2109013

[MrTuskfish]

A very accurate hydrometer is critical for hypo. A ATO helps a lot too. Just a few minutes of SG over 1.009 is all it takes to allow an ich theront to emerge and find a fish host; starting the ich life-cycle all over again.

[jim.crunk]

Kudos on the QT, I wish I could set one up.

I have never had more than 1 fish w/ick at one time, but I have given freshwater baths to several fish over the years with positive results everytime.
Just a thought, you could give a freshwater bath to your fish and put them into the QT without lowering the SG as much as you are trying to. I would think that this would be less stressful on them.

[StephLionfish]

Sorry to hyjack, but where do you guys get the ATO's at? What kind do you use?

[MrTuskfish]

Kudos on the QT, I wish I could set one up.

I have never had more than 1 fish w/ick at one time, but I have given freshwater baths to several fish over the years with positive results everytime.
Just a thought, you could give a freshwater bath to your fish and put them into the QT without lowering the SG as much as you are trying to. I would think that this would be less stressful on them.

FW baths don't help with ich. The ich parasite is feeding under the skin, out of reach of the FW effect. FW baths will help give some temporary relief to brook or velvet...but not ich.

[MrTuskfish]

Sorry to hyjack, but where do you guys get the ATO's at? What kind do you use?

Mine is totally retro on my "rube Goldberg" central ,plumbing system. F&S, MD, or BRS all have them, I'm sure. All they really are is a basic float valve with a FW holding tank adapted to your system. Great for vacations and an all-around work saver. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=20412

[lhm nole]

I did hypo on my 400 fowlr system and was successful the first time I did it over a 4 day period using straight tap and had no issues of ph dropping living in NW Florida helps.. Lowered it to 1.008 using refractometer and added water as needed for evaporation ... That was my first time doing hypo and now I hypo all my fish for qt and have not seen ich since.I had no ammonia spikes and all fish made it through like champs and never had a problem with then eating, keep in mind this was right after months of unsuccessful copper treatments so maybe the reason for no ammonia spikes. All the blue legs hermits made it but had to remove snails killed off all my pods so I had to re populate those... After 6 months I actually have some coralline algae growth on the rocks.

[Tigerlusken]

Thanks for sharing your experience with hypo! It really helps alot, as I'm new to this and never felt more lost in my life.

This is turning out to be ALOT more work than i first tought. My p.fridmani is still in hiding, so the fresh quarantine/hospital tank is still at 1.025. Can't start without the last fish :(

I'm checking for ammonia 3 times per day, yesterday morning it was fine but last night it was 0.25 so I changed around 3 gallons (out of 18 or so, the tank is 73 liters so not sure how much that is in gallons), mixed up 3 new gallons and swapped it this morning and now its on about 0,10 i guess so still need to change more. Getting a 10 gallon thing to mix the water in tomorrow, so hopefully itll go smoother then.

My ph was also all the way down to 7.7 (tetra test, I guess i need to get one of those digital things) before moving the fish, so after changing water its up to 7.8 (kh is around 10-11 so also a bit high)I'm guessing to much vinegar on aiptasia was the reason for the low ph. I did get some salifert ph/kh buff, but as im going to lower the salinity im guessing thats no use?

I'm also using tapwater as I'm lucky enough to have very good water where I live.

Still got the sodium carbonate used for baking ("pure powder version") but dont know how to use it so dont want to mess things up before I even started.

The dwarfangel and clownfish eat brine shrimp like heroes, but the dwarf angel got a darker color under his eyes. Anyone know why that is? Also there hasnt been a spot on the angel since I moved them, so hopefully he isnt being bothered by the parasites right now.

Equipment I'm guessing I wont be able to live without:
-a billion filtersponges to change everyday
-automatic top off so the salinity dont go all sneaky on me
-accurate ph measuring
-new thermometer as i managed to smash the glass on the one I had while mixing new saltwater
-a billion buckets of salt for waterchanges
-find a way to make sure my refractometer is 100% accurate at both low and high salinity. (I guess all i need is fluid I know the salinity off, and then check it up against my refractometer, or did I missunderstand this? I think the pharmacy can make something for me to check with)

Anything else that will make my life easier?
Any tips on how to trap the fridmani? He is out swimming as soon as the lights goes on.

Right now i leave the filtersponge in until I can catch the p.fridmani and actually start lowering the salinity over 48 hours as the stickies suggest, anything bad with this? ( I put it in this morning and can change it earliest 27th, or I can remove it and just have the powerhead + airbubbles)

Also promised my dwarf angel I'll buy him a big tank if he survives my foolish beginner mistakes.

[snorvich]

FW baths don't help with ich. The ich parasite is feeding under the skin, out of reach of the FW effect. FW baths will help give some temporary relief to brook or velvet...but not ich.

That is correct. Cryptocaryon embeds too deeply for fresh water to have any positive effect. As mentioned, fresh water does ameliorate symptoms of brook and velvet as well as flukes.

[Tigerlusken]

This is going bad. It's impossible to catch the p.fridmani even after trying different traps, emptying 75% of the water, trying to lift all stones out of the water to make it jump down into the net and waiting patiently for days now. The maintank is also now looking nasty and cloudy, my new skimmer dont work at all and the old one is broken so it's a disaster any second now. Tried to remove most of the inverts and corals to a 5g bucket with 75% freshly mixed water, hopefully I can save them.

The hospital tank is horrible, I have fed the fish 3 tiny formula 1 flakes today that got instantly eaten, but the ammonia is going only one way, up and thats fast. 0,10 this morning, then I did a 40% water change, then it went down to close to 0. Checked again after some hours and it was close to 0,2, so I did another waterchange 50% this time. Checked 45 mins ago and its now up to 1,5. Waiting for new load of water to heat up, but at this rate I cant seem to mix the saltwater fast enough, I'm also almost out of salt and the shops wont be open tomorrow.

Don't know what to do now, I could do another massive water change with the last bit of salt I got left - but if it's going to be 1,5 again it's not a solution that will last for all of tomorrow. Tested the water with both API and salifert test set, and it shows 0 from tap water and freshly mixed so sadly its not inaccurate tests.

Only thing I can think of doing now is to fill my proper tank with the last bit of freshly made saltwater, put in the old skimmer that leaks and sit with a bucket under it until the shops are open again. Then I could put my 3 fish back in the maintank, and try to treat them after I get the QT under control.

Any better ideas?

edit: looks like my main tank isnt so bad after all, nitrit, nitrates and amo came back all at 0. So setting up the old leaking skimmer, fighting some more with the new one and waiting for fresh saltwater to heat up so all the fish can go back here.

[Haffs09]

Sorry to hear your troubles. I can't help you with catching the fridmani, but do you have access to a bigger hospital tank? A 30gal or 40gal should be plenty and then you can use your 20gal (approx 73L) to mix up your make up water. Are you using any ammonia removers? If so, they will still test positive for ammonia with a test kit.

[Tigerlusken]

Overview over my mess:
-My main tank is 40gallons.
-"Hospital" tank is 20 gallons.
-Watermix bucket is 8~ gallons.

I live in a flat, so the limit is pretty much pushed. 90% of kitchen workspace is occupied by tanks, buckets and equipment, and the 20 g was the biggest I could fit in the kitchen. If I moved the bed out and we slept on the floor I could fit a bigger tank in but my better half is already pretty annoyed :thumbdown

(I could get another 8 gallon bucket too if I put it in the shower, but then I'd also need a 4th heater and some circulation to mix it up faster)

Not adding anything to the water as the behaviour of the addatives would change when lowering the salinity. Only planned on adding the ph thingy later on.

Right now I need to wait for the shops to open up, so I can buy more salt (thats whats holding me back to go ahead now).

I don't know if I'm making the right choice, but if I move the 3 fish in QT back to the main tank they wont have to suffer from the ammonia spikes, and can hopefully eat properly (they are hungry but because of the ammonia I'm scared of feeding them to much to often).

I will obviously have to treat them properly, but it will be easier when shops open so I can get all the right equipment. I'm really worried about the ammonia tho, thats not going to get better with lower salinity - and I'm not sure I can change the water 4-5 times per day everyday for 3 months+ (Even if I doubled the tank volume and could get away with 2-3 waterchanges per day I think it would be to much unless I can convince my boss to let me work from home). Also guessing that this many waterchanges will stress them, even if the salinity, ph and temp are the same.

Right now Im considering treating with hypo in my maintank, and move my corals + few inverts to the 20gallon. This way my fish will also get more space, and hopefully the live rock/sand will help some with the ammonia (ofc unless it goes in the opposite way and release massive amounts of waste from bacteria dying, ive read both versions :( )

I should really hurry up and build a house for my hobby!

Oh and for those out there who thinks like me, that it will probably be all fine without a QT, so far, this cost me 435$, and I didnt get ATO and new tests yet (3 times a day and even salifert ones dont last very long!)

[Haffs09]

Here's a few ideas to consider:

1. Keep the fish in the hospital tank. Don't feed them until you can get your next batch of salt ready. As long as they were eating well before the break out, they'll be fine for a couple of days without food. Once your salt is ready, use an ammonia remover and do a water change. Fill your water container with fresh water and add baking soda until it matches the pH of the hospital tank. Now you'll know how much baking soda you'll need to add for that amount of water in the future. You'll may want to wait several hours and test the pH again to make sure it's at the right level. Start dropping the salinity over two days until you're at hypo conditions.

2. Or you can move the fish back into the display tank as you proposed. You'll still need to figure out the baking soda / pH relationship for your make up container, so that's the same as in the other option. I don't know what will happen when you drop the salinity in the DT. I don't have any sand in my system, so I don't know how much that will contribute to die off and the resulting water quality issues. I know changing 10% of my water every 3 or 4 days kept me ahead of ammonia problems. But keep in mind that's on a 500 gal system too.

My thoughts are if you can get the hospital tank down to hypo conditions and maintain it there, you should be able to mitigate ammonia problems through use of ammonia removers, reduced feeding and an 8 gallon water change every other day. Once you get a feel for the routine, you may be able to feed a little more and/or go longer between water changes.

I also did hypo on a 75 gal tank. I changed 12-15 gallons every 3 or 4 days. One time I got busy and ended up losing a flame angel because I exceeded the limit when I went 6 or 7 days from the last water change. I learned my lesson and kept with the frequent water change schedule.

[Tigerlusken]

I moved them back to the DT, couldnt leave them in the ammonia as it was only going up. Shops will be open tomorrow so will get 25kg salt then, hopefully that will last for a while with my small tanks.

I'm hesistant to add anything to the water, i found this article about hypo: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23131-hyposalinity-treatment-process.html

that says

DO NOT ADD ANY OTHER MEDICATIONS TO HYPOSALINE SALTWATER without knowing it is approved by the medicine manufacturer for use specifically during a hyposalinity treatment. When fish are in a hyposaline liquid, the effects of medicines and medications changes.

it also mention that ph buffers except baking soda dont work under those coniditions, so if the ammonia remover dont work, I would have the same problem as now.

Getting the ATO ordered tomorrow as well, from reading on this forum and other places it seems i can mix in the sodium carbonate in the fresh water that will drip into the tank. Ill do several tests with the QT now that its empty, before I try it in the DT.

Chemistry question, if I add baking soda to the fresh water so it goes up to 8,2. Then mix in salt to raise the salinity wont the ph skyrocket? My tapwater got a ph of 7,5 or so, but when mixing in Tropic marine salt it goes up to 8,2 without adding any buffer. Guess I have alot of experimenting to do!

All fish looks very good now, eating good as well. I'll read alot more before my next try, I'm worried that my tank isnt big enough for hypo I'm also thinking I might have been wrong and that it wasnt ich. The dwarfangel had spots (that looked just like ich to me) the evening after I got him, then when moved to the QT (the afternoon after) he had nothing at all. No other fish got ich either, but that can show up later and my fish didnt get to stand in the QT for very long due to the ammonia.

Sorry to hear about your flame angel, guess it's easy to think itll be fine when watervalues look good too, so I'll remember that!

[Tigerlusken]

Forgot to add, I'll check ammonia remover for brackish water.. this might work safely and might be the way to go.