Does UV really help to kill ich?

[F35-Joint Strike Fighter]

I have a reef tank and my tank has ich. I can't treat it with copper so the only option left is UV. Do you guys really think the UV will kill ich?

TIA,
F35

[Reeferwill561]

I'm suprised that you haven't gotten burned yet lol

You should use the search feature though, and do some research. This topic has already been brought up many times.

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[F35-Joint Strike Fighter]

Just did some research on UV, it doesn't help much.

[snorvich]

I have a reef tank and my tank has ich. I can't treat it with copper so the only option left is UV. Do you guys really think the UV will kill ich?

TIA,
F35

No, it will not cure ich. Keeps your water nice and clear though.

[F35-Joint Strike Fighter]

Looks like I will have to transfer all the fish to qt.

[Allmost]

Reeferwill561 ; Really ? if you dont want to participate in threads, you can just not reply ! I am prety sure every aspect of this hobby has already been discussed ... does this mean we should close down RC ? lol


if you can pass 100% of water through UV, it will kill IcH.

since in a reef tank we cant do that. it will just help control the population of ich, that fall of the fish at night, and dont settle and pass through the UV instead.

[MrTuskfish]

Reeferwill561 ; Really ? if you dont want to participate in threads, you can just not reply ! I am prety sure every aspect of this hobby has already been discussed ... does this mean we should close down RC ? lol


if you can pass 100% of water through UV, it will kill IcH.

since in a reef tank we cant do that. it will just help control the population of ich, that fall of the fish at night, and dont settle and pass through the UV instead.

yes, 100% of the ich would have to find the UV intake before finding the safety of the substrate. To add to the UV's problems; almost all tomonts, safe in the substrate, release their 100s of free-swimming offspring at night. Most fish sleep on the substrate at night. IMO, UV may help a bit with ich; but it often gives a false sense of security and delays real treatment.

[Reeferwill561]

Reeferwill561 ; Really ? if you dont want to participate in threads, you can just not reply ! I am prety sure every aspect of this hobby has already been discussed ... does this mean we should close down RC ? lol


if you can pass 100% of water through UV, it will kill IcH.

since in a reef tank we cant do that. it will just help control the population of ich, that fall of the fish at night, and dont settle and pass through the UV instead.

I sure hope I didn't come off as rude because that wasn't the intention. Sorry if I did.

There are many times that this quuestion has been answered, it is even stickied too. I was trying to offer my advice to the OP as if I myself were in his situation. I think it is good husbandry to search first. Rather than shoot first ask questions later approach lol

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[RtReef]

I have a UV filter that I received for christmas. I think I'm just going to return because I have not read anything spectacular on them, that normal tank maintenance can't aid in. Most I read is it kills free floating ich and keeps your water clear. I do weekly water changes so my water is always clear. I'd rather return and use the money to buy a coral or other hard goods.

If I'm wrong I know I will get corrected....... mrtuskfish is good at that.lol, but he has a lot of wisdom I can sense! .......I've been put in my place before. (nice thing about this site)!!!

[F35-Joint Strike Fighter]

what I have seen is most of the lfs use uv for their fish tanks so I guess UV can help a little bit. Also, if i use uv, 100% return will pass thru UV. Oh well, I will transfer all the fish to qt and leave my dt without fish for 2 months.

[MrTuskfish]

I sure hope I didn't come off as rude because that wasn't the intention. Sorry if I did.

There are many times that this quuestion has been answered, it is even stickied too. I was trying to offer my advice to the OP as if I myself were in his situation. I think it is good husbandry to search first. Rather than shoot first ask questions later approach lol

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Searching for info is always a good idea. But ich is one subject that (IMO & IME) also requires some individual attention, especially for the first timer. There are so many variables, 3 proven treatment methods, lots of little hints & tricks, and everyone has a different set of circumstances. I really don't think an "all-inclusive" ich-cure post exists. Searching ich cures will also lead to a lot of the worthless "reef-safe" ich cures; leading to disaster. I still believe in Santa at my age; but quit believing in "reef safe" ich cures a long time ago. (That doesn't mean that I don't think one may come along.)

[jt_milstead]

Yes a UV Sterilizer helps keep Ich in check. I was at Quality Marine in Los Angeles, and they have many sterilizers. Get the biggest one you can afford/fit....

[MrTuskfish]

Yes a UV Sterilizer helps keep Ich in check. I was at Quality Marine in Los Angeles, and they have many sterilizers. Get the biggest one you can afford/fit....

UV is great for keeping ich from spreading in multi-tank systems and for keeping the number of theronts down in small holding tanks. That is the reason almost all wholesalers and many LFS use them. Fish aren't in their systems long enough to cure an ich infestation. This is an entirely different situation than an ich infestation is a hobbyists tank. Many/most wholesalers and dealers use a low dose of copper 24/7/365 for the same reason. IMO, the idea of "keeping ich in check" shouldn't even be an option in the home tank. Kill it all or, eventually, it will get your fish.

[The Codfather]

No, it will not cure ich. Keeps your water nice and clear though.

+1, I've run UV in the past. Just remember if you do run UV, make sure you match the flow limit of the unit. Too much flow through a sterilizer and it cannot function properly, it does require contact time.

[snorvich]

+1, I've run UV in the past. Just remember if you do run UV, make sure you match the flow limit of the unit. Too much flow through a sterilizer and it cannot function properly, it does require contact time.

Absolutely. Also remember that changing the bulb is essential as well as keeping the contact surface clean.

[dlterry85]

off topic but thought i would just say JSF F35... i worked on the models for this jet. also did some work on the stream tubes for the air intakes. hope it flies well.

[extra3d]

I have a reef tank and my tank has ich. I can't treat it with copper so the only option left is UV. Do you guys really think the UV will kill ich?

TIA,
F35

Hi, please follow my advice, IT WORKED FOR ME, it could work for you!
1) Buy Strees Coat, Dose as the bottle says!
2) ONLY turn on the Actinic lights!! for 3 to 4 days..
3)Check all you parameters, the most important one for me is the ALK!! low alk= PH swings= STRESS!!! if you have low alk, up it slowly.
4)Do not do any water changes for now!
5)Do not transfer to QT for now! More stress for them!
6)Buy good food!! and ad garlic and selcon! Feed, feed, feed!!! Pump there inmune system!!

Mike

[snorvich]

Hi, please follow my advice, IT WORKED FOR ME, it could work for you!
1) Buy Strees Coat, Dose as the bottle says!
2) ONLY turn on the Actinic lights!! for 3 to 4 days..
3)Check all you parameters, the most important one for me is the ALK!! low alk= PH swings= STRESS!!! if you have low alk, up it slowly.
4)Do not do any water changes for now!
5)Do not transfer to QT for now! More stress for them!
6)Buy good food!! and ad garlic and selcon! Feed, feed, feed!!! Pump there inmune system!!

Mike

Sorry, but there are only three known treatments for ich. I do not agree that you have solved your ich problem.

[MrTuskfish]

Sorry, but there are only three known treatments for ich. I do not agree that you have solved your ich problem.

Me either. "Temporary managing" and "curing/eliminating" ich are two different things. I'm afraid it almost certainly will reappear.

[seahorsedreams]

UV is utilized best in aquaculture. It really doesn't do much in our applications. It's very useful for them in reducing the risk of it spreading from one holding tank to another. If all the water from one tank has to go past the UV to go to the next, it's a useful tool.

[sandwi54]

Hi, please follow my advice, IT WORKED FOR ME, it could work for you!
1) Buy Strees Coat, Dose as the bottle says!
2) ONLY turn on the Actinic lights!! for 3 to 4 days..
3)Check all you parameters, the most important one for me is the ALK!! low alk= PH swings= STRESS!!! if you have low alk, up it slowly.
4)Do not do any water changes for now!
5)Do not transfer to QT for now! More stress for them!
6)Buy good food!! and ad garlic and selcon! Feed, feed, feed!!! Pump there inmune system!!

Mike

This is not the advice to "kill" ich, only to "manage" it so that fish don't get heavy infestations. I'm sorry but you most likely have not eliminated ich in your system. The infestations are likely to be low enough that your fish are only getting infected in the gills and not on the bodies, and that's why you are not seeing the white ich spots and fooled into thinking that your fish are cured of ich.

Please read all of the ich stickies on this forum (or on the internet) and you will understand why "boosting fish's immune system" or "reducing stress" do not eliminate ich. There are many myths that have been scientifically proven to be wrong, such as "ich is always present in the system" or "ich is caused by stress on fish." It amazes me how people can believe that stress causes ich. Ich is an obligatory parasite; the tank either has it or it doesn't. In a tank without ich, the fish can get stressed all day long and not get ich, because... there's no ich!

Again, please do educate yourself about ich by reading the stickies and solve your own ich problem the right way: hyposalinity, copper, tank transfer.

[seahorsedreams]

We probably believe the same things, sandwi54, and I may just be a little confused by what you are saying. Some of your sentences put you in my arena, while others I'm not sure of.

There can be a low grade case in any tank that can go unnoticed. My volitans, I'm sure, is maintaining his own little population right now, that I can't see. When ever something stressful occurs, his immunity is reduced and all of a sudden he's infested. I actually don't treat him anymore. I just support him nutritionally and try to find what is stressing him out. 2 times it was a tank move, so that was easy to fix because there was no fix... just time. The second was a horrendous vibrating pump. When we put absorptive cushions under it, it went away.

The next "thing" that occurs, I'm sure he'll have it again. But I believe at this point, his own immunity causes it to not be so pathogenic to him.

[sandwi54]

We probably believe the same things, sandwi54, and I may just be a little confused by what you are saying. Some of your sentences put you in my arena, while others I'm not sure of.

There can be a low grade case in any tank that can go unnoticed. My volitans, I'm sure, is maintaining his own little population right now, that I can't see. When ever something stressful occurs, his immunity is reduced and all of a sudden he's infested. I actually don't treat him anymore. I just support him nutritionally and try to find what is stressing him out. 2 times it was a tank move, so that was easy to fix because there was no fix... just time. The second was a horrendous vibrating pump. When we put absorptive cushions under it, it went away.

The next "thing" that occurs, I'm sure he'll have it again. But I believe at this point, his own immunity causes it to not be so pathogenic to him.

Hi Renee, could you point out what I wrote confused you? This way I can address them easily.

Ich CAN often go unnoticed if the fish is healthy and stress is low. The reason is that the healthy slime coat prevents ich from penetrating through it and attach to the body tissue underneath, so there are no ich infestations on the body and hence no "white spots." however, fish's gills are very soft and unlike the body, are unprotected. it is easy for ich to penetrate the soft gill tissues and infect the fish. this fools aquarists into thinking that ich is gone, when in fact it is there and we just can't see it since it's microscopic. if the fish is healthy, it can fight off most of the attacks and only get minor infections. its gill movement may be fast or slow depending on the amount of infestations. the only way to truly tell is to look at a tissue sample under hte microscope.

What i stated above is the reason why i prophylactically treat EVERY single fish I buy. The majority of people only treat when they see symptoms, but given the specific characteristics of marine parasites (ich, velvet, etc.), i just don't trust a new fish at all. It may be harboring parasites and show absolutely no symptoms during the entire length of QT (6 weeks, 8 week, 3 months, you name it). I cannot feel safe about putting a new fish into my DT without it going through a rigorous 3-4 weeks of cupramine and 2 rounds of prazipro. True, the fish will get stressed out during the treatment, but that is one small price to pay than to introduce potential disease into the DT and having to treat the entire tank with 10 fish, and stressing everyone out.

Proper QT and prophylactic treatment are especially important for people who have large tanks and large number of fish. Having to catch fish in a large tank and treating all of them in a QT while trying to manage water quality issue is a huge PITA. I've gone through that before and lost half of my fish, and you cannot pay me to go through that again. you simply cannot pay me to risk my whole tank of beloved fish for one new fish, no matter how much i love him.

[MrTuskfish]

^^^^^^^I couldn't agree more. ^^^^^^

[seahorsedreams]

We believe exactly the same thing. You clarfied with your most recent post.

Except to add one point. The reason a low grade population can be tolerated, may also be due to having a partial immunity. I'm enjoying our Ich discussion today. :-)

[MrTuskfish]

We believe exactly the same thing. You clarfied with your most recent post.

Except to add one point. The reason a low grade population can be tolerated, may also be due to having a partial immunity. I'm enjoying our Ich discussion today. :-)

I agree, but I always have a problem with the question: "is the immunity permanent, if not, how long does it last?"?

[seahorsedreams]

Burgess and Matthew state it can last up to 6 months.

I'm not quoting articles to be "that" person. I'm just sharing sources as I know that can be part of the problem. Not everyone has access to the same readings. But even this stuff are author's interpretations of studies... they are just better trained and have access to different stuff, so I have to somewhat trust what peer reviewed academic readings say. What choice to we have, really.

[sandwi54]

Agreed. Though I think ich is easily treatable using the methods proven by the academia, i.e., Burgess. At least I never really had a problem, except for that singular hypo experience.

By the way, even though I believe in the "temporary immunity" thing, I don't really think it matters or helps us in any way, simply because we don't know if and which fish are going to develop it, and for how long. I simply treat every fish since that's the only way to cure ich 100%. I am an electrical engineer and that's just how I do things. When we design hardware, we try to leave no room for error and do not take chances. If we do, Murphy's Law always comes back and bite us.

[seahorsedreams]

Preaching to the choir LOL. look at my signature.... I'm never trying to get those fish back out for treatment!

I should have smelled (smelt?) the engineer on ya, my husband is one. I'm an ICU nurse, our brains click the same way.

[sandwi54]

Haha it's good to talk to people who think the same.

We are not too far from each other. maybe we'll meet on the road some day!

[snorvich]

I agree with Renee, sandwi54, and Mr.Tuskfish. My recollection on the temporary immunity thing is that it tops out at about 6 months. But, the immunity is selective and not general. It definitely does not happen to all fish in the tank which means some will be susceptible when others are temporarily not. I would certainly not want to roll the dice when there are proven treatment protocols. it is always so tempting to look for an easy solution (the silver bullet approach) but when you do, you risk your embedded base of fish.

[seahorsedreams]

They've had a little success with vaccination... would THAT be nice. I bet this recession has suppressed SO much juicy research due to tight funds *sigh*

[MrTuskfish]

Although there has been a small amount of published info on marine ich; I think we are still dealing with a protozoan about which we really know very little. Because this isn't a parasite that affects people, and our little SW community is rather tiny, its doubtful we will ever have much real scientific literature. Dedicated scientists (Burgess, et al) and ambitious PhD candidates are few and far between. With such a small pool of researchers, their findings are seldom disputed. So, we must rely on sharing and sorting anecdotal evidence to really know our adversary. Common sense is also a valuable tool that seems to get lost in our hobby from time-to-time as well. Bottom line (IMO): forums and discussions like this are invaluable.

[seahorsedreams]

May I jump in respectfully here. There is practically zero info about Ich as it pertains to our hobby. There is tons of it in the aquaculture sector, albeit the focus has been on freshwater ich as that is the bulk of the food fish industry. Ich is responsible for the number one loss of fish in aquaculture and really has been studied well. Where we haven't made the jump, is from "what we know" to "how to apply it". They have the info on how to kill it, it's just difficult to implement it in their flow through, net pen, aquaculture type systems. The info is there... we just need to go get it.

The problem in our hobby is there is too much variable with the life cycle of Ich, that's where our issues lie, IMO. If we don't know the exact day of the vulnerable stage, and it can be from a couple of days to a couple of months, has has a 24 hour survival period.... no wonder our experiences are so random. What worked for one that "hatched" in a couple of days, may not work for the one that hatched at day 72 soley based on timing. Treatment plans are going to have different success and fail rates because of this variable time limit. If all parasites were vulnerable at say, day 5, we would have the problem knocked.

The problem really has been solved in our area. We know how to kill them and we have the means to do so, we just don't want to do it. Treat all fish with recognized proven treatment in a QT tank and leave tank fallow to allow for the maximum life cycle of parasite. That really does solve the problem. What we DON'T know and what we are looking for, is the EASY way to treat this. If the solution was to pour the medicine in our display tanks, this would never be a problem. But where the solution involves SO much more, then that's our faults it's a problem, not the lack of knowledge.

[sandwi54]

Well said Renee! The reason why most hobbyists refuse to properly QT and treat new fish, or treating existing fish that have ich, is because it's a lot of work and they don't want to go through the trouble. It's often after a hobbyist loses hundreds of dollars of fish that he starts realizing that this "trouble" is needed.

[Paul B]

The reason a low grade population can be tolerated, may also be due to having a partial immunity.

I also think they can have full immunity, forever, not just six months.
I also believe you can have ich in your tank forever and not have a problem with it, ever.
As for scientific research, that is also true that little is known about the disease although we think we know everything about a paracite, we know very little. Yes we know how many days it needs to go through it's cycles at a certain temperature, we know what kills it and what does not. But we don't know anything about a fishes immunity from it.
I personally know that fish can become immune, but I don't know how.
I do know that my fish are immune from ich, but as I said, I am not sure why.
They have to be immune or I have to be very lucky. I have not quarantined anything in 30 years and I add animals from many sources even the sea. I also add mud from the sea for the bacteria. I have no hospital tank and not needed one in decades. Why? I don't know.
I think it is because of the health of my fish that they achieve from the nutrition I give them. To me it is live food or more specifically fish oil.
I could be wrong but some of my fish are 17 years old and still spawning. None of my fish die of disease, they either have an accident like jumping out or getting stuck in a powerhead which the screen fell off or I give them away to a public aquarium if they get too mean or large.
I know it is not because of my Under gravel filter so I can only come up with the fishes own immune system.
I feel very strongly that if our fish are in spawning condition, they will not succumb to ich. I welcome any and all theories as to why my fish and other hobbiests fish do not get ich, ever. I am not talking about a couple of months or a few years, I am talking decades.
By the way, I also enjoy this thread. :beer:

[sandwi54]

I don't know, Paul. Maybe you were just REALLY lucky. I mean, anything is possible right? If someone could win the mega-million lottery that has the probability of 1 out of 176,000,000, then I don't see how someone could not luck out the entire length of the hobby for 30 years.

We are aware that many hobbyists such as you have not had a problem with ich, ever, but for every one of you, there are tens or hundreds more that had tank wipe-outs from not quarantining. Thus, our purpose is not to debate whether a QT is needed or how lucky a person is, but rather try to make this hobby as successful as possible for everyone. We are recommending ways to guarantee near 100% success rate (because we have all tried them over the years and know they work) and hoping that hobbyists can follow them to minimize fish loss and maximize enjoyment in this hobby. I hate to see people leaving this hobby out of frustration, and at the same time, I also wish the proper quanrantine techniques can be more widely spread to the general public so more people could practice them.

[MrTuskfish]

Not taking away from your husbandry skills, Paul, but I think you've been very lucky as well. I do respect your observations and disagree with a few; but something we both know is that if ich isn't in a tank, a fish can't get it. Obvious, but often ignored.

If, as Renee suggested, everyone would use what we do know----this section of our forum would be a barren place. The overwhelming number of problems posted here could have been prevented by a good QT regimen. This discussion could (and should) go on indefinitely; but there will always be plenty of folks who hold out for the "reef-safe' kills everything powder or ignore any and all advice to use a QT. I've finally gotten to the point where I'm willing to post what I've always known. I agree with Fenner; if you don't have and use a QT----this hobby isn't for you.

[seahorsedreams]

There are lots of studies about immunity. I'll see if I can pull some specific quotes. I have a ton of books and journals. They are not online, however, which makes them difficult to share.

But first..... a have a couple of gift cards I would like to cash in on!

This could be a great discussion.... until the first grumpy person comes in. I'm not here to prove anything. I'm not making any wild claims. Just sharing my books that I love so much.

[Paul B]

We are aware that many hobbyists such as you have not had a problem with ich, ever, but for every one of you, there are tens or hundreds more that had tank wipe-outs from not quarantining. Thus, our purpose is not to debate whether a QT is needed or how lucky a person is, but rather try to make this hobby as successful as possible for everyone.

Sandwi54, I am also trying to make this hobby successful and I think quarantining is great but I also feel that "along" with quarantining we can get our animals in a condition where they do not even get ich just in case our quarantining is not successful. I can't quarantine even if I wanted to due to the NSW, rocks, mud and animals I add but at one time I also had to. That was before I spent a lifetime SCUBA diving to learn everything I could about these animals. I learned that they eat mostly whole fish, and in whole fish is the guts which IMO is where the secret is to get their immune system in such a state that they do not get ich.
I am not a lucky kind of guy, I was in 2 helocopter crashes, my Dad died when I was 10 and my wife of 38 years is very sick. I don't do luck well so I am sure my tank is not healthy because I am so lucky :confused:
But if I am lucky, then we all could be just as lucky as soon as we figure out why "some" tanks are not bothered by ich.
I am curious, does anyone have a fish that is actively spawning "and" has ich?
A fish that is spawning or at least in spawning condition is in the best condition that it will ever be in. Only very healthy fish can spawn because it is a huge burden on a fish to develop a spawn that is about a third of it's weight and almost all oil. If a fish can do this, it's immune system is also in the best shape it will ever be in. In this shape, ich is not a problem.
Isn't it better to not have to worry or even think about ich than to worry about how long it's cycle is? how to kill it? or how to cure it?
So much time and money is spent on ich cures and to me that money can be better be spent on getting the fish in a condition where you never worry about ich or any other disease.
It costs me practically nothing to feed my fish a few live worms and fresh clams every day along with some fish oil soaked pellets.
I know it sounds wierd and to simple but believe me I have had more cases of ich over the years than all of you put together. That all stopped when I learned the secret, (not when I got lucky)
Fish in the sea eat whole fish like the fry to the left of this nurse shark, so quarantine your fish but also get them into spawning condition with the proper food every day
Just my opinion.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Nurse_Shark.jpg

[Paul B]

I agree with Fenner; if you don't have and use a QT----this hobby isn't for you.



Dam, I wish I knew this when I started. :headwally:

[MrTuskfish]

Dam, I wish I knew this when I started. :headwally:

Me too.Even though every major book on our hobby says the same thing; I learned the hard way.
This forum is constantly filled with posts from hobbyists who need to QT and are trying to learn how. Many have/will experience total wipe-outs because they won't use one. There are very few hobbyists who share your success without one and (IMO) you sure aren't helping anyone by suggesting that going your route is going to be successful. I've done a lot of things in this hobby that probably shouldn't have worked. But I'm sure not going to suggest that someone else do something that fails the vast majority of the time its tried. BTW, do you really think most hobbyists, especially newcomers, have the ability to get fish into ''spawning condition"?

[sandwi54]

Paul, I have to say I agree with MrTusk. It's like telling someone who's learning snowboarding the first time to jump off the double black diamond slope like a pro. A newbie cannot possibly know how to get fish into spawning condition; actually, I don't know how either, but I do know how to kill ich!

I think what most newbies need is a set of instructions on how to set up tanks and how to properly quarantine and treat new fish without introducing any potential disease into DT. While I think your methods work, they are neither appropriate nor achieveable for the majority of the hobbyists, especially the newcomers.

Just now someone posted this, and it is a solid example of the necessity of QT for new hobbyists.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2112301

[Paul B]

BTW, do you really think most hobbyists, especially newcomers, have the ability to get fish into ''spawning condition"?




I also always put in there that Noobs should quarantine. When I was a Noob, I had all kinds of ich problems but when I was still a Noob, I also learned how to get fish in spawning condition and it was very simple. I was breeding blue devils a couple of years after I started my tank and all it took was switching my fishes diet from flakes and prepared foods to some worms. It doesn't seem very hard.
It's like telling someone who's learning snowboarding the first time to jump off the double black diamond slope like a pro.
The first, and last time I did that I broke my leg in 3 places and was in a cast for 7 months, so that was much harder than getting fish in spawning condition :)
I am not that smart, I am not a marine biologist or scientist, I am an electrician so why is it so hard to feed fish something that will keep them healthy? Yes, of course quarantine, if done correctly it will keep paracites out of your tank, but while you are quarantining, get the fish in good shape.
I also use a reverse UG filter, most people think I am nuts and say it can't work. Well it does work and it works longer than any other system but people who don't know how to use it resist it and think I use some kind of magic.
I have been dealing with ich for about 50 years, much longer than most people who have been writing books about it and I did learn a few things. I have a little experience that I am trying to share before I croak. I am sorry if I am coming of as a snob or know it all, I don't know it all but I do know some things and fish in great condition don't get sick. Quaranting, if done to everything also works but inevidently, eventually you will get a paracite in there and if your fish are not in excellent condition you can lost the tank, as I have done many times.
All it takes is a mature tank (so new tanks must quarantine for a few years) and the correct food, that is food with a high fish oil content like live worms.
You can jump off snowboards if you like but I would break my leg again, and I hate when I do that. :headwalls:
I know my ideas are a little out there but that is because I started this way before the internet and before there were any salt water authors, but sometimes there are ways to do things that you will not read from "experts"
Anyway, I am finished. Have a great day and a fantastic new Year. :celeb1:

PS this is a fish disease forum, not a Noob forum. I try not to go there but sometimes I forget, and get in trouble. :spin2:

[seahorsedreams]

Anyway, I am finished. Have a great day and a fantastic new Year. :celeb1:

You're finished!!! But.... But.... I didn't come back to the party here last night.... I'm old... I feel asleep with a book on my face. That's always a delightful way to wake up!

[Paul B]

I'm old... I feel asleep with a book on my face. That's always a delightful way to wake up!


Your probably not as old as I am and it depends on what book you found on your face this morning. I sleep with my face in the tank so I woke up with a hermit crab up my nose. :lolspin:

[MrTuskfish]

Paul, just curious; do you QT new fish? I admit to being a parasite paranoid and (for my own tanks) I'm a lot more concerned about velvet or brooklynella than ich. Especially since some of the best fish available are treated with low doses of copper almost from the instant of their capture and this can make velvet very hard to spot, until the copper disappears. I know brooklynella is most common among wild clowns; but so many facilities are now on central systems, that lots of fish can be exposed. This has been a great discussion happy New Year!

[Paul B]

just curious; do you QT new fish?

MrTuskfish, don't get mad at me ;) but I do not have to quarantine anything. I added a couple of fish last week. I don't have a quarantine or hospital tank.
Remember I never said I had anything against quarantining fish, I said (a number of times) that fish in spawning condition do not get sick.
As you probably know, my reef has been up for 40 years and some of the fish are very old. There is a reason my fish get very old and a reason I do not have to quarantine. No, it's not that luck thing.
I know on this and other forums many people worry about things such as ich and with good reason, it can wipe out a tank in a couple of days. I know it well from my first tanks to the wholesalers and retailers tanks I had associations with. It is a horrible parasite. But I live by the sea and add animals, water, seaweeds etc almost every day so I can't quarantine all of these things. If I had a new tank I would have to or if my fish were not in breeding condition, I would also have to. No doubt.
When I served In Viet Nam I took a malaria pill every day. If I didn't take the pill I would almost certainly get malaria, which is a paracite very similar to ich.
The Vietnamese people had no pills, but the healthy people (who had good food and clean water) did not get malaria.
When I went to Mexico I did not drink the water but I still ended up in the hospital from dysentary. The Mexican people that live in the cities and are healthy do not get sick, why not?
Isn't it better to be immune from the disease than to try to cure it later?
There is a simple way to keep your fish immune from most diseases.
In my opinion quarantining is great but if you want to have your tank up and running for a long time isn't it worth it to learn how to get and keep your fish in the best condition they can be in?
No one asked how to get a fish in spawning condition. That is interesting.
But there is a lot of discussion of paracite life cycles.
Life cycles of paracites is something we as hobbiests should be aware of but more important than that IMO is how do we get fish very healthy so they live for 10 or 20 years with no sickness. I don't do anything different for my fish than anyone else becides feed them differently. Many of them are spawning because if your fish are not spawning or at least making spawning jestures, you better quarantine because they are not very healthy at all.
All healthy fish spawn, or at least are capable of spawning. It is the most important sigh of health in a fish. People can "spawn" almost no matter what condition we are in, fish can not. Most, but not all fish also live 15 or 20 years.
Remember, I never said that you should not quarantine, I said "I" don't have to quarantine but for a Noob or if your fish are not in spawning condition, then by all means quarantine because you will have to. :fish1:
By the way, I also love this discussion even though everyone seems to think I am against quarantining. :D
This blue devil was among the first batch of saltwater fish imported into NY in the 70s.
He is over his nest of eggs in that barnacle shell circa 1973
All I did to get him spawning and ich free was to feed him a few live blackworms every day along with some fresh clam. Before that, I had to keep copper in the tank continousely.
Him and his harem of 6 females lived 7 years and spawned every month of so.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/scan0003-2.jpg
watchman gobi tending her eggs with no help from me besides feeding foods high in oil

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Gobieggs026.jpg

This fireclown is 16 or 17 years old, never sick and still spawning. Bites the heck out of me when I stick my hand in the tank. (That white thing with the red stuff is a decorator crab)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/IMG_1638.jpg

This female pipefish has been spawning for 3 years. She gets new born brine shrimp every day.
Never been sick.
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/IMG_0107.jpg

This is one of the big secrets to great health. Live blackworms. Yes I know, very technical.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Wormkeeper008.jpg

[seahorsedreams]

I have to argue spawning even being an indication of a higher level of health. I had fish breed while being in a hospital tank with meds!

And then there's things that spawn solely based on the fact they are stressed.

Of course, I'm not saying this is your case, I'm just adding that.


I'm only finding one source that says the immunity lasts for only 6 months. The rest don't really touch on it, except the one about vaccinations. They do say that the vaccination has not proven to be a life long immunity.... so it kind of sounds like they are corroborating the timed hypthesis.

[Paul B]

I had fish breed while being in a hospital tank with meds!



Salt water fish? Fish can be in a hospital tank with meds and still be healthy.
They can be in a bathtub and be healthy

And then there's things that spawn solely based on the fact they are stressed.

That is a direct response to stress and those fry will not survive.
They are not really spawning but eliminating spawn due to fright.
Mouthbrooders will also spit out fry and swim away.

I have to argue spawning even being an indication of a higher level of health.
No don't argue, I hate argueing. :eek: Only very healthy fish spawn.
Did you ever have fish spawning that had ich?
I never did and I have been spawning fish for quite a long time.
Then there is that problem as to why do my fish not get ich?
A few years ago here on RC I asked if anyone had an ich infected fish that they would like to put in my tank to test my theory. No one brought me a fish. My tank is an experiment and I will do anything to it if I think it will benefit the hobby or my education. :smokin:

If for some reason I put an ich infected fish in my tank it may live or die but the rest of the fish will not be infected. Why? I don't really know but I am talking about many years not weeks and many ich infected fish not one or two. I think it is the health of the fish but I am not the God of fish and I could be wrong. I hate it when I am wrong but I am up for theories. If just one tank does not have a problem with ich that means to me that there is a solution. :beer:
Any theories, I want to learn also. :)

[seahorsedreams]

Salt water fish? Fish can be in a hospital tank with meds and still be healthy.
They can be in a bathtub and be healthy

No, they were dying.... :-(. Yes, SW.


That is a direct response to stress and those fry will not survive.

Good point. They don't necessarily die, though. Depends on age at time of abortion.


No don't argue, I hate arguing.

To argue isn't to fight. :-) For realz.


Did you ever have fish spawning that had ich?

No, not Ich.

I agree conditioning definitely helps. But when immunity drops, even a healthy fish can then fall victim.