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Tracey2
12/28/2011, 02:40 PM
I was trying to beat HA with a variety of carbon sources, biopellets, vodka and vinegar, dosing slowly. Since the introduction of vodka and vinegar I now have dinoflagellates to deal with, has anyone heard of this? When I search dinoflagellates and vodka dosing, I only find threads where carbon dosing is the cure not the cause???

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/28/2011, 02:43 PM
I've not heard of it. It could be a true cause and effect, but it is more likely coincidence, IMO.

You've been using all of those at the same time? Not many folks do that. Maybe that was the cause. :D

Tracey2
12/28/2011, 03:38 PM
Yes, all 3, I have been running pellets for a few months and just recently started vodka and vinegar, yesterday I cut the vodka and vinegar in half, maybe I should stop with both for awhile and just run pellets but my nitrates are still 20, and phosphate .00 to .04. I have cut back feeding and increased water changes.

SBV
12/28/2011, 03:40 PM
I had the same thing happen to me. I'm on my 3rd day of blackout to rid this pesky stuff. I was up to 25ml a day of vinegar only. Urrrgh!

Tracey2
12/28/2011, 04:40 PM
Nice to know I'm not alone. I know this is not a coincidence because it has happened in both tanks since dosing both vodka and vinegar. SBV, have you stopped dosing?

I don't know if I should quit dosing or maybe just stop the vinegar??

Randy Holmes-Farley
12/28/2011, 06:39 PM
If the Dino's are bad, I'd stop organic carbon dosing and use GFO.

Tracey2
12/28/2011, 07:38 PM
Thanks Randy, I am also running gfo. I need to find a source of Lye in Canada, I have gone thru a ton of gfo and still have algae, I would like to start regenerating it.

VegasUSP
12/28/2011, 09:23 PM
If the Dino's are bad, I'd stop organic carbon dosing and use GFO.

I have a bad case of dino's that are driving me insane! Would you recommend stopping biopellets and using only gfo to get rid of them?

bertoni
12/28/2011, 09:31 PM
It's worth trying, IMO. This type of pest can be very hard to kill.

tmz
12/28/2011, 10:11 PM
I've not seen any in 3yrs of vodka vinegar dosing,except when i introduced new coral from a tank which had them as I learned later.. They didn't spread very far in my tank and siphoning them out once or twice ended that.

I get sodium hydroxide, food grade lye from AAA chemicals on line. Don't know if they ship to Canada. There should be some similar on line vendors in Canada as lot's of folks use it for making soaps as either a cottage industry or as a hobby.

Tracey2
12/29/2011, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the info tmz, I will check them out.

I now have my lights out and have not dosed vodka or vinegar for 24hours, the biopellets are still running and gfo which was changed on the 23rd. I kept the pellets running because I didn't want to change everything too drastically and I didn't have this problem with just the pellets, I hope this is the right thing to do.

I know someone who has a tank with a phosphate reading of .49 and she has 0 algae in the tank, why when mine only reads .04 do I have a problem?

SBV
12/29/2011, 07:05 PM
Tracey, I have stopped cold turkey dosing the vinegar. Today was my 1st day with lights on and didn't see the first spec of any dino's! I know its too early to tell. Everything is I'd say 99% gone. Gone completely from the sand.

Here's what I did:

Lights out for 3 COMPLETE days and that includes using black 6mil plastic to block off the main tank.
Stopped the vinegar.
Continued to use my 100 micron filter socks changed daily.
No water changes for a looong time for me. (future)
I do use kalk in a 32 gal brute for all top off water.
No feeding of fish during lights out period.
ASM skimmer run very wet during that same lights out time period.


Time will tell and I'll keep everybody posted. I don't let things beat me and its the first sight of dino's in a 2 year time frame. I'll find a cure or die trying. I don't get mad, I get even. You want war Dino's? You got it.

Rock on gang, Michael

burnah
04/23/2012, 08:20 AM
hey there, sbv! any updates?

i did something very similar. lights out for 2 days with shading with black plastic, pulled out the biopellets and no feeding. they have suffered a lot, but they come back. i also started adding microbe-lift special blend, to establish a photosyntethic bacterial counterpart to compete with them. so far, they are reduced but i will retry this with 3 days in a week or so to kill them.

Randy Holmes-Farley
04/23/2012, 10:35 AM
i also started adding microbe-lift special blend, to establish a photosyntethic bacterial counterpart to compete with them. so far, they are reduced but i will retry this with 3 days in a week or so to kill them.

Are you sure you are adding photosynthetic bacteria? The only photosynthetic bacteria I know of is cyanobacteria, which I would never intentionally add to a reef aquarium.

burnah
04/23/2012, 10:42 AM
this is how its supposed to work, i have no idea whatsoever is in that bottle ;) sofar it has worked to almost outcompete my cyano, now i want it to do the same with the dinos.

Randy Holmes-Farley
04/23/2012, 01:34 PM
Well, you or they misunderstood the photosynthetic part, I expect. Otherwise, I agree that is how they claim to work: by out competing pest organisms like cyano. :)

burnah
04/23/2012, 02:38 PM
could be, in the description where i bought it, it states that it takes the place of algae and cyano bacteria and that it is photosynthetic. it is some sort of brackish bacteria that thrives up to salinity of 1025. maybe it is some kind of cyanobacteria? i have no clue.

do dinos really feed on carbon sources? how do i deplete my reef from DOC other than skimming? so far lights out and providing competition has helped, but i think that theres something that fuels them. algae still grow, so there must be more than just n/p to that i guess.

HighlandReefer
04/23/2012, 04:10 PM
Perhaps the reason why some hobbyists experience dinoflagellate blooms in their tanks is due to the lack of dino predator species. Once the dino predators are introduced and/or allowed to flourish they then gain control of the dinos that bloom. Perhaps it is just a matter of allowing enough time before the predators kick-in in some situations. ;)
-------------------------------------------------

Control of Toxic Marine Dinoflagellate Blooms by Serial Parasitic Killers

Aurelie Chambouvet,
Pascal Morin,
Dominique Marie and
Laure Guillou*

+ Author Affiliations

Station Biologique, CNRS, UMR 7144, Place Georges Teissier, 29682 Roscoff Cedex, France; and Laboratoire Adaptation et Diversité en Milieu Marin, Université Pierre et Marie Curie, Paris 6, Paris, France.

* To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: [email protected]


Abstract

The marine dinoflagellates commonly responsible for toxic red tides are parasitized by other dinoflagellate species. Using culture-independent environmental ribosomal RNA sequences and fluorescence markers, we identified host-specific infections among several species. Each parasitoid produces 60 to 400 offspring, leading to extraordinarily rapid control of the host's population. During 3 consecutive years of observation in a natural estuary, all dinoflagellates observed were chronically infected, and a given host species was infected by a single genetically distinct parasite year after year. Our observations in natural ecosystems suggest that although bloom-forming dinoflagellates may escape control by grazing organisms, they eventually succumb to parasite attack.

HighlandReefer
04/23/2012, 04:16 PM
Another article of interest:


Physiological ecology and possible control strategy of a toxic marine dinoflagellate, Amphidinium sp., from the benthos of a mariculture pond
John J Lee, a, ,
Muki Shpigelb,
Scott Freemana,
Oded Zmorab,
Sophia Mcleoda,
Stacea Bowena,
Michael Pearsona,
A Szosteka


Abstract

Some species of Amphidinium are known to have produced toxins. When a species of Amphidinium bloomed in a mariculture sediment pond fed by effluent water from semi-intensive fishponds, it was isolated and its physiological ecology was investigated to find its tolerances and optima for population growth (temperature, salinity, pH, nitrate/ammonia, phosphorus, and vitamin B12). In a preliminary test, an ether-soluble extract was toxic to mice. The Amphidinium sp. was eurytrophic, with a great facility for luxury consumption and the ability to store nitrate and phosphate for several generations. It needs vitamin B12 and formed cysts when exposed to high levels of ammonium. Its maximum growth rate was 1 division/day, and it grew well between 20 and 33 °C. It was tolerant of a wide range of pH (6.5–9.5; optima 6.5–8.6) and salinities (20–50‰; optima 22–32‰). The Amphidinium was outcompeted by diatoms if the Si/N ratio was kept at 1:1 or greater, suggesting that this factor could control its growth in sedimentation ponds used in integrated systems to grow mollusks. Eurytrophic organisms are difficult to control by environmental methods, thus, vigilance is required to ensure that bivalves fed from sediment ponds are not contaminated with toxins from this or any other dinoflagellate.

Randy Holmes-Farley
04/23/2012, 05:30 PM
could be, in the description where i bought it, it states that it takes the place of algae and cyano bacteria and that it is photosynthetic. it is some sort of brackish bacteria that thrives up to salinity of 1025. maybe it is some kind of cyanobacteria? i have no clue.



I see their description on their web site, but I didn't see anything about it being photosynthetic:

http://www.microbelift.com/products/home-aquarium/bacterial-products/special-blend/

burnah
04/24/2012, 01:50 AM
thanks for all the info. about the predators, how could those be introduced into the tank? stock new liverock? seawater from "red tide" infested areas?

i know that their website states different than in the german onlinehsop where i bought it, also in the german forums its "common knowledge" that its photosythetic due to its cyano-eradicating abilities. but on the other hand, no one knows what it is..

Randy Holmes-Farley
04/24/2012, 04:37 AM
OK, thanks. :)