What's Your Problem With Bio-Pellets?

[t.trezona]

I would like to start a discussion about problems people have had that they attribute to the use of Bio-Pellets. Trying to find some common pathways, either in systems, setup, or use that is causing the adverse effects. I have a relatively new system set up and running for about 8 months. 180 display. 300gal total. I use an Octopus reactor with a fairly slow tumble of about 2 cups of W-M pellets. I have a sump with multiple chambers. Tank overflows go into chamber 1. My Reeflo skimmer pump draws from chamber 1, as does a separate pump to the Bio-pellet reactor. I have a 1 1/2 inch T connected to a bulkhead fitting at the sump for the skimmer input. One side of the T is from the sump, the other is the effluent form the bio-pellet reactor. That means 100% of the reactor output goes directly into the skimmer input. Setup was about 1 month after I fired up the whole system, which is a mixed reef with predom Acros and is thriving. Nitrates and Phosphate are minimal. Had very minimal algae growth during cycling. Virtually none detected since. Beautiful coral colorating and prolific growth. So far I'm happy with the system. What's your take on this?? What's your problem??

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Cyano is probably the most commonly reported problem when people use pellets.

There are many reasons I do not use them, but these might be considered "advantages" of other types of organics, rather than "problems" with pellets. In any case, here's the list of what concerns me about them:

1. Harder to quickly control and adjust dosing than soluble organics.
2. More tendency to potentially cause cyano than some soluble organics such as acetate.
3. More expensive and requires equipment purchases for use (although a doser for soluble organics also costs if you use one)
4. Not as easy to control where and when the dosing takes place in the overall reef system
5. The released organics are perhaps not as widely bioavailable to reef creatures as things like acetate or ethanol
6. Possibly more of a concern for hydrogen sulfide production during a power failure.

[t.trezona]

Cyano is probably the most commonly reported problem when people use pellets.

There are many reasons I do not use them, but these might be considered "advantages" of other types of organics, rather than "problems" with pellets. In any case, here's the list of what concerns me about them:

1. Harder to quickly control and adjust dosing than soluble organics.
2. More tendency to potentially cause cyano than some soluble organics such as acetate.
3. More expensive and requires equipment purchases for use (although a doser for soluble organics also costs if you use one)
4. Not as easy to control where and when the dosing takes place in the overall reef system
5. The released organics are perhaps not as widely bioavailable to reef creatures as things like acetate or ethanol
6. Possibly more of a concern for hydrogen sulfide production during a power failure.

Not sure why you feel you would need to quickly adjust?
I don't think there is any significant dosing in the tank. I'm guessing most of the bacteria that reproduce metabolizing the pellets go out my skimmer. Don't know for sure.
Is there some evidence that significant pellet organics are released into the system?
Definitely a potential problem with power outage. That's why I am in the process of installing a switch that will cause my pump to stay off when the power comes back on. I have installed a set of valves that allow me to flush the reactor effluent down the drain when I power up. When clear, back to system.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The fact that many folks get cyano remote from the pellets proves, IMO, that the pellets do in fact release organic matter. Since no one has ever tried to measure it, the hypothesis (and that is all it is) of purely localized organic additions, while seemingly attractive, seems to not hold up in reality.

I've adjusted doses of soluble organics many times. I want to do it quickly when I do it. Is that a big deal? Perhaps not, but there is obviously a lot better control than with pellets that take substantial time to get coated and growing.

[doctorgori]

...it a trade off ...I think what the doctor is also implying is known methods vs .more guess work with the pellets...

I thought about dosing vinegar but I'm not diciplined enough to monitor & adjust...
I used pellets & A reactor and might have simply got lucky: my tank looks pretty good...I saw a lil cyno but nothing a change in flow didn't take care of

...I think this topic is a good one...we need a survey...more data ..et:
Which pellets/brands worked best, which reactors, et....

Those long threads on both the solid vodka dosing and vinegar/vodka dosing are full of data, just albeit unorganized

[doctorgori]

I've adjusted doses of soluble organics many times. I want to do it quickly when I do it. Is that a big deal? Perhaps not, but there is obviously a lot better control than with pellets that take substantial time to get coated and growing.

hmmm...make me wonder if you can dose Vodka while using Bio-pellets?
best of both worlds?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

hmmm...make me wonder if you can dose Vodka while using Bio-pellets?
best of both worlds?

You can, but I don't know if that is as good as vinegar alone. :D

[t.trezona]

We need more people to weigh in on this. Can it be that there is a common thread with respect to cyano and how the system is set up? How about total pellet volume vs tank volume? How about how vigorous the tumble is? How about plumbing? How about skimmer use? Etc, Etc.
I have run mine for more than 6 months without noticing any significant reduction in pellet volume so it would seem to me that the amount of organics that are being released into the system can't be very much. The organics in the huge amount of food I dump into the tank is vastly greater than any minimal portion of pellets fractured off or metabolic end products released into the system.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not know how many such folks will stop by this forum, but there are many threads on these topics in other forums, and perhaps you can glean something from them. :)

[Crazyfingerz]

Hmmm, I recently started running Bio pellets about a month and some and the results have been ok for me. i sometimes see a little cyano but usually last a day before it just disappears. I'm still monitoring the tank to see if i would run in to any problems but so far so good.

[loftism]

I just started a tank and have been using bio-pellets from day 1. Are we certain that people are experiancing cyano outbreak? My experiance was a huge bacteria outbreak at first, i was changing sock 2X a day and skimmer was mad. During this time my rock(started with mostly dead rock) went from white to tan. I assume the change was due to bacteria colonization. I used 1000mg of bio pellets with is almost 2X what i should have on an established system at 120G. The directions indicate start slow and ramp up to about 500mg per 100G. I suspect if i had followed the directions i would have had minimal issues. Now everything is perfect rock is getting back to white(bought handfuls of snails) and have low to no detectible NO3 or Phosphates.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

from day 1. Are we certain that people are experiancing cyano outbreak? .

I'm not sure what you are exactly asking, but it is certain that a reasonable number of folks report a cyano outbreak on initiating these plastic pellets, and some have stopped them for that reason. It is also true that some do not see any cyano.

Vodka also tends to cause cyano in some, but not all tanks. Vinegar does not seem to (or has a much lesser tendency to do so).

[heckeng]

I have been using BP for around 5 months now and am using about 3/4 the recommended dosage and have seen positive results. My cyano that I DID have has disappeared. I know I feed more than I should but I am trying to keep my fish health as well as the corals. So far the BP seem to be allowing me to do that. I never had any cyano outbreak after starting them, but MAY have had a mild bacterial outbreak as my tank went through a slight cloudy phase for a couple days.

[Malign Reefer]

To new for me...

[t.trezona]

I started basically from day 1 as well. Started with 500cc in 300 gal system. Never had slime. Never had strings. Never had cyano. Never had clumping. Never had algae. Nitrates not detectable. Virtually unable to grow Chaeto at all. Feed heavily. Curious.

[jamey1015]

I used 200 grams of Katalyst in a modded Nextreef reactor and had a terrible time with cyano , my nitrates were <5 and phosphates .02 or less I ran them for 6 weeks waiting for cyano to clear up and it never did as a last resort I did start dosing bacter7 to see if it would help and did nothing. I had cyano so bad there were thick sheets of it covering the sand but they would disapte at night only to immediately take back off once the lights were back on. I wrote Brightwell with the problem and they informed me my nitrate and phosphate levels were too low to support the pellets.

I took them offline and the cyano cleared up in about a week or so never to never reappear so that was my experience with it.

I'm sticking with the occasional carbon a small amount of gfo and weekly 20% water changes in my sps dominant 180.

It seems from what I got from them the pellets are perfect for tanks with a ton of fish and/or non-photosynthetic corals were the nitrate levels are really high from feeding and waste, another thing to note is the pellets need both nitrate and phosphate to colonize the bacteria on themselves.

[barjam]

They caused cyano for me and actually killed a very large milli colony. In my case I didn't follow directions though and I wasn't directing the output to the skimmer input.

[willybub]

here is the FAQ for the vertex bio pellets, has some nice info

http://www.vertexaquaristik.com/Portals/0/Pro-Bio%20Pellets%20FAQ.pdf

[stangchris]

Ive been using bio pellets for over a year now........ when i started them it was in a tank that was a year old and had high nitrates, i dosed WM pellets according to tank size and didnt gradually add them over time. out put is in zip tied to front of the intake .In 24-48 hours i got a nice bio bloom, tank water went milky white for 48 hours. at the same time skimmer was pulling nasty sour white skim(lasted until bloom cleared). after that i noticed hair algae dieing rapidly, then cyano came.. my theory is yes there are organics released but i think its from algae decomposing. when i slack on keeping an eye on when i need to top off the pellets i notice algae blooms. then i top off and cyano returns, cyano seems to cycle through and i control it with KZ coral snow.
another problem ive noticed is trace elements seem to striped faster and i would have to dose potassium, iodine and trace element product to keep my SPS( tank is mostly SPS) from getting pale. for the last month and a half ive been using KZ sea water complex(Meerwaser) and coral still looks good. i also run a high capacity gfo to help with phosphates with no problems.
im sure more water changes could help with elements but i work full time and go to school full time. so water changes are 10 gallons a month on a 85g system.

[t.trezona]

After reading nearly all threads on Biopellets I believe it is essential that 100% of the reactor effluent feed into your skimmer input. The skimmer must be very efficient. Otherwise you are simply adding excessive carbon to your system. So far I have had no Cyano. Hopefully it stays that way. That's the only common thread I see so far. Anybody else?

[heckeng]

Isn't that the whole purpose of dosing vodka or adding bio pellets? Add carbon to the system so that you can grow enough beneficial bacteria to use up the algae causing by products of feeding? The only issues a person should have are making sure you don't add too much carbon source and have it out of balance with the excess nutrients you are trying to get the bacteria to consume AND removing the dead bacteria after they have consumed that excess nitrate and phosphate so that it doesn't simply get re-introduced to the system. Also, as far as having a top of the line skimmer, I don't think that is necessary. Most of what any skimmer removes from the water column is dead bacteria, so any skimmer will simply remove more, it doesn't have to be a super skimmer to do that. What would need to be "upgraded" is your skimmer maintenance to make sure the skimmers performance doesn't go down faster since it will be building up slum in the skimmer neck and collection cup faster.

[t.trezona]

The issue here is common problems and how they were prevented or solved.

[karsseboom]

I had bad cyano in my tank a while back. I bought some chemi clean and it wiped it all out in 2 days. Since then I have not had one single sign of any algae in my tank but maybe some diatoms. The p04 and nitrate is always zero no matter how many more fish I add. Now the tank is to the point where the cyano can't come back becuase there is nothing for it to live on. The biggest problem I see with pellets is it drives down the nutrients way to low and your tank starts having issues. I like vodka cause it seems like a middle point of the 2 methods. The best thing to do with pellets is to run like half the recommended dosage.

[doctorgori]

I had bad cyano in my tank a while back. I bought some chemi clean and it wiped it all out in 2 days. Since then I have not had one single sign of any algae in my tank but maybe some diatoms. The p04 and nitrate is always zero no matter how many more fish I add. Now the tank is to the point where the cyano can't come back becuase there is nothing for it to live on. The biggest problem I see with pellets is it drives down the nutrients way to low and your tank starts having issues. I like vodka cause it seems like a middle point of the 2 methods. The best thing to do with pellets is to run like half the recommended dosage.

^^^ and that brings up a good point....
looking back, I now wonder if those sps & xenia I lost was because the water was too clean...

Now I feed moderatley (I use frozen, Nano & pellets)...while my tank won't grow xenia, it does grow GSP, albeit very slowly....

I do use GFO & Carbo in conjunction

[t.trezona]

I had bad cyano in my tank a while back. I bought some chemi clean and it wiped it all out in 2 days. Since then I have not had one single sign of any algae in my tank but maybe some diatoms. The p04 and nitrate is always zero no matter how many more fish I add. Now the tank is to the point where the cyano can't come back becuase there is nothing for it to live on. The biggest problem I see with pellets is it drives down the nutrients way to low and your tank starts having issues. I like vodka cause it seems like a middle point of the 2 methods. The best thing to do with pellets is to run like half the recommended dosage.

This is an interesting issue. Makes most sense to me to start with a volume of pellets well below the recommendation. Then ramp up if and only if you need to. The concept the you can't OD makes some sense in theory, but in practive people seem to be having issues with that. I started very low and ramped up slowly. I have had no issues doing so. Nitrates and Phosphate undetectable.

[Vipete1985]

The only reason u would get a cyano outbreak from biopellets is if u do not have enough flow going threw the reactor.... Biopellets if implemented correctly well help lower phosphates and nitrates and therefore should greatly reduce your cyano problems

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only reason u would get a cyano outbreak from biopellets is if u do not have enough flow going threw the reactor.... Biopellets if implemented correctly well help lower phosphates and nitrates and therefore should greatly reduce your cyano problems

Do you have any evidence to support the first part of that assertion?

[Zedar]

A few years ago it was believed that cyano was caused from carbon dosing driving nitrates down to zero.

Under a zero nitrate (or so low its undetectable) condition. Cyano thrives because they can pull carbon from the atmosphere while the bacteria we are trying to grow starves.
In other words we remove their competition when we dose carbon and allow nitrate to go to zero.

[asonitez]

I've been having sporadic cyano breakouts sine using bio-pellets. I'm wondering if i should remove them and go back to seachem phosguard.

[96p993]

For those who have had negative experiences could you please explain your setup? I am trying to get a feel for the negative effects and improper setup, namely where you output was going....As several have said, I believe it is crucial to have the output from your reactor going directly into your skimmer. Could this be one possibility to the effects some are seeing??

[asonitez]

Well my setup is straight forward.

Skimz SM201 Rated for 580g
3 X Vortech Mp40
2X Koralia Evo
160lbs of Rock
100lbs lbs of Live Sand
Metal Halide Radiums 20K X 2 250w + 4x T5 54w Ati Blue Plus

I'm running my BRS biopellets in a NextReef MR1 Reactor with NextReef's Biopellet conversion Kit. I started with a full load and immediately got a big bacterial bloom which went away after 2 or 3 days. Water cleared up and then I got crazy amount of skimmate. After this it all settled down.

Tested parameters and everything zeroed out. I am however getting Cyano Algae During the day which goes away after the main lights go out... Then by half day I got cyano again. I haven't done a major water change since but I plan to do one tonight. I switched my salt to ReefCrystals and have been raising my Alk and Magnesium over the last 2 weeks. My Effluent from the bio-pellet reactor dumps right into the mouth of my skimmer so a lot of the water is pulled into the skimmer. I think that once I siphon out my sand and a lot of the cyano that my problem will go away. I've started the red-sea coral program which I've seen AMAZING results. I highly reccomend it over zeovit only because its easier to get, easier to dose, and everything you dose you can measure the level of it in your water. Its helluva lot cheaper too.

[lbaldrey]

I ran BP at half the recommended dose initially and then ramped it up after a month but I couldnt bring my levels down. Nitrates always hovered around the 25ppm mark.

I stopped using the pellets for a while and eventually started them again but this time I was using it at 25% more than the recommended amount and nitrates are always at 0 now. Skimmer smells foul. Im able to feed thrice a day without issues.

Im seeing a bit of cyano on the sand bed. Would it be ok to dose a bit of vinegar in addition?

[badonkadonk]

I've got a 120 with a 100 gal Rubbermaid sump and 60 gal (former) refugium. System is about 8 years old. Had a 5" aragonite sandbed from the beginning, but then about 2 years ago started having problems with my sps color, then began to lose colonies. Sandbed looked pretty dirty so I decided to remove based on all the talk of loading of the bed after 5 years or so. Pulled out big chunks of cemented sand (had to chip off the rock), more than half had solidified. Saw no improvement in coral growth a few months after that so decided to try vodka dosing. Followed the plan at first, but then got impatient and increased doses faster than recommendations. SPS started looking better, but got cyano, upped my GFO (I had been running off and on) - this made things worse and then I lost even more color/colonies and frags. Switched salt (grasping at straws), pulled back on the vodka and finally stopped vodka altogether.

Decided to try biopellets, orderd a few liters from BRS and put them in a TLF 550 (the bigger one) reactor with the NPX screens and an MJ1200 feed pump. Positioned the outlet of the BP reactor to the inlet of my rather large skimmer (SRO/Octopus 5000SSS) so that 100% of the effluent goes into the skimmer. Soaked a liter of pellets in tank water for a couple of days with several drops of zeobac (cultured pixie dust). Placed about 2/3's of the pellets in reactor, started pump - skimmer got a bit foamy, settled down within 10 minutes or so. Wasn't satisfied with the amount of tumble, so I lowered the reactor to be almost submerged in the sump and the tumble picked up by quite a bit, then added the rest of the pellets. Also run carbon in a TLF 150 (nearly full). Did a 20% water change (Red Sea Coral Pro, switched from DD H2O), and noticed cyano starting to pull back by the 2nd week. Now on week 7 and the cyano is gone, SPS polyps fully extended and color coming back to remaining colonies and frags.

Could have been I was running too much GFO, too much vodka (got up to about 20 ml/day - 10 ml twice daily dosing), and just generally making too many changes too quickly, throwing the system further out of balance. But I am feeling pretty good about the direction now, and have got far less gunk in the tank/sump. I've still got bryopsis growing fairly well on a rock, so I've apparently got some nutrients in the system, but no HA and no cyano, and the bubble algae is even turning light green/white. But the main thing is my SPS is looking happy again. I'm keeping an eye on the pellets to make sure they keep tumbling and that 100% of the effluent goes into the skimmer, those seem to be the major factors from what I've read. So far so good, but still too new to say mission accomplished.

[doctorgori]

Im seeing a bit of cyano on the sand bed. Would it be ok to dose a bit of vinegar in addition?

I asked this same question a few weeks ago, Randy didn't see any advantage... (but he didn't say you couldn't either)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Same answer. It's fine to dose both at the same time, but I do not know if vinegar (or any carbon dosing) will defeat existing cyano. It might, but GFO might do the job faster.

[burnah]

ok i have to chime in.

i have been dosing vodka for over a year, and in the last 3 months vodka+vinegar, the corals were fine but the cyano took over more and more. i got myself some biopellets and moved the tank, but as a student i lack the money for a pellet reactor. started vinegar again after the move, corals look fine again but the cyano comes back again. this got me annoyed, and i saw the pellets lying around. the packaging states that one can put them in a net in a high flow area, so i tossed around 100ml of them in a nylon/perlon sock (girlie stuff, cooked), and suspended it into the skimmers sump section.

so far, they have been in there for a week. i still dose some vinegar, i still have some cyano, but i will report further. the pellets do not tumble at all, but theres high flow, emitted from my skimmer and the water is skimmed right afterwards.

tank is 50g, fuge/sump is 20g. 5 small fish, some sps

will report again

[badonkadonk]

No direct experience myself, but when the pellets don't tumble they start to stick together and then act as a detritus trap, probably going anaerobic in the interior as they degrade and may end up working against you.

[jamey1015]

I was using a Nextreef reactor MR1 with the cone mod in the bottom and a maxi-jet 1200 to run it, I was using Brightwell Kataylst which called for 1 gram per 2 gallons of water and used half the recommended dose for 3 weeks and after I got cynao which was instantly I dosed bacter7 to hopefully relive the problem, than I stepped up to the recommend about at about a month and the cynao got much worse, I had the output directly in front of the inlet for my BM-200 skimmer which defiantly getting nearly all the output, I thing I should say this was all on a fairly new set up tank with nitrate's really low to begin with and hardly no phosphates present. I sent my water parameters to Brightwell anf they told me my current conditions would not support the pellets, giving me the feeling they work much better for a tank with a high bio-load of lots of fish and heavy feeding. I had just a few tangs/clowns/gobies and a mixed reef of mostly sps in a 180.



For those who have had negative experiences could you please explain your setup? I am trying to get a feel for the negative effects and improper setup, namely where you output was going....As several have said, I believe it is crucial to have the output from your reactor going directly into your skimmer. Could this be one possibility to the effects some are seeing??

[t.trezona]

Ive been using bio pellets for over a year now........ when i started them it was in a tank that was a year old and had high nitrates, i dosed WM pellets according to tank size and didnt gradually add them over time. out put is in zip tied to front of the intake .In 24-48 hours i got a nice bio bloom, tank water went milky white for 48 hours. at the same time skimmer was pulling nasty sour white skim(lasted until bloom cleared). after that i noticed hair algae dieing rapidly, then cyano came.. my theory is yes there are organics released but i think its from algae decomposing. when i slack on keeping an eye on when i need to top off the pellets i notice algae blooms. then i top off and cyano returns, cyano seems to cycle through and i control it with KZ coral snow.
another problem ive noticed is trace elements seem to striped faster and i would have to dose potassium, iodine and trace element product to keep my SPS( tank is mostly SPS) from getting pale. for the last month and a half ive been using KZ sea water complex(Meerwaser) and coral still looks good. i also run a high capacity gfo to help with phosphates with no problems.

Curious how you knew your trace elements were being removed from the water faster?
im sure more water changes could help with elements but i work full time and go to school full time. so water changes are 10 gallons a month on a 85g system.

[t.trezona]

I had bad cyano in my tank a while back. I bought some chemi clean and it wiped it all out in 2 days. Since then I have not had one single sign of any algae in my tank but maybe some diatoms. The p04 and nitrate is always zero no matter how many more fish I add. Now the tank is to the point where the cyano can't come back becuase there is nothing for it to live on. The biggest problem I see with pellets is it drives down the nutrients way to low and your tank starts having issues. I like vodka cause it seems like a middle point of the 2 methods. The best thing to do with pellets is to run like half the recommended dosage.

Is it not possible you simply added too large a volume of pellets?

[t.trezona]

For those who have had negative experiences could you please explain your setup? I am trying to get a feel for the negative effects and improper setup, namely where you output was going....As several have said, I believe it is crucial to have the output from your reactor going directly into your skimmer. Could this be one possibility to the effects some are seeing??

When I set up my system I did not want any of the reactor effluent to dump into my sump. I placed a 1 1/2 T to a bulkhead fitting at my sump. One side goes to my skimmer input. The other is my reactor effluent. Therefore the only portion of the reactor effluent that enters my system is what goes through my skimmer.

[acesq]

I have had pellets running in my 120 SPS system since I first set it up in September, 2010. I was trying to run a hybrid zeo system using the additives, including the carbon source, zeo start ,but not the zeolites. This worked very well for a year -- no algae ever, zero nitrates, moderately low phosphates (generally <.06) -- then the cyano began to appear. Thinking my phosphates were creeping up from an ever increasing bioload I added GFO. It reduced the phosphates, but not the cyano. I then used the zeobak/zeosnow and biomate/zeozym protocol to reduce significantly the cyano, but I never was able to completely eliminate it. Three or four months ago I stopped dosing the zeo start and within 2 weeks the cyano was completely gone. I haven't seen any since and my corals have never looked better.


My takeaway from this is that cyano may be caused by too much carbon dosing. So if you have the right amount of biopellets, don't dose vinegar or vodka.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IThree or four months ago I stopped dosing the zeo start and within 2 weeks the cyano was completely gone. I haven't seen any since and my corals have never looked better.


My takeaway from this is that cyano may be caused by too much carbon dosing. So if you have the right amount of biopellets, don't dose vinegar or vodka.

What do you think is in zeostart 2 and why are you painting vinegar and vodka with that same brush?

The description is, as usual for zeovit, very vague, but it sounds more like a bacterial additive than an organic carbn source.

[acesq]

What do you think is in zeostart 2 and why are you painting vinegar and vodka with that same brush?

The description is, as usual for zeovit, very vague, but it sounds more like a bacterial additive than an organic carbn source.

My nose tells me that there is acetic acid in Zeostart3 and Zeostart2. The smell is very strong. Whether that is vinegar or some other formulation, who knows.

This is what the sticky on Zeo products in the zeovit forum claims:

"ZeoStart
This is the carbon source; it smells like an Easter egg coloring kit (vinegar). I am sure it is some mixture of vinegar, sugar and/or something else but not sure exactly what.

ZeoStart helps in the reproduction of nitrifying bacteria which basically ‘eats’ phosphate and nitrate. Zeostart works in conjunction with zeobak (the food for the bacteria) and zeobak works in conjunction with the zeolites."

It is not an "official" statement but it has been posted on the forum for some time.

If you compare the official descriptions of Zeostart and Zeobak in the KZ brochure, its pretty clear that the start is the carbon source and the bak is the bacteria culture.

I continue to add zeobak and biomate weekly at a lower dosage than recommended, usually in combination with the zeosnow and the zeozym. They do seem to keep the sand cleaner than without, but other than that, I really haven't been able to see any real benefit.

[Psionicdragon]

The bad thing that I have experience is if you turn it off for a day or two, the anerobic bacteria starts to build up and blacken the media temporary. When you restart it, it releases sulfur into the system.

Another thing is that it clumps when there aren't enough flow or that there is too much "film" inside the reactor. I had to switch to different reactors multiple time, but in the end, you just have to clean the pellets once a week.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My nose tells me that there is acetic acid in Zeostart3 and Zeostart2. The smell is very strong. Whether that is vinegar or some other formulation, who knows.

This is what the sticky on Zeo products in the zeovit forum claims:

"ZeoStart
This is the carbon source; it smells like an Easter egg coloring kit (vinegar). I am sure it is some mixture of vinegar, sugar and/or something else but not sure exactly what.

ZeoStart helps in the reproduction of nitrifying bacteria which basically ‘eats’ phosphate and nitrate. Zeostart works in conjunction with zeobak (the food for the bacteria) and zeobak works in conjunction with the zeolites."

It is not an "official" statement but it has been posted on the forum for .

Well, I guess I would not want to take advice from that forum if such stuff is left unchallenged. :(

Nitrifying bacteria produce nitrate, they do not consume it. Denitrifying bacteria consume nitrate.

Products designed to spur nitrifying bacteria, as Zeostart 2 claims, are usually bacteria. I have no idea what is really in it, since they may just be intentionally misleading, but the description above is not to be trusted.

What do you think the zeobak "food" is if not the carbon source?

[acesq]

Well, I guess I would not want to take advice from that forum if such stuff is left unchallenged. :(

Nitrifying bacteria produce nitrate, they do not consume it. Denitrifying bacteria consume nitrate.

Products designed to spur nitrifying bacteria, as Zeostart 2 claims, are usually bacteria. I have no idea what is really in it, since they may just be intentionally misleading, but the description above is not to be trusted.

What do you think the zeobak "food" is if not the carbon source?

I think the writer of the sticky (to my understanding, not a KZ employee) meant to say that the Zeostart was the food for the Zeobak. While his language is awkward, I don't believe he meant to be misleading

The official KZ product brochure, while cryptic indeed, does say the that Zeobak "contains several bacterial strains that form a chain to reduce unwanted substances". The description in the brochure of Zeostart says it "is a food source" for the bacteria.

I guess this leads me back to the hypothesis that overdosing carbon sources, whether it be vinegar, sugar, vodka, pellets or any combination thereof, can promote the growth of cyano. I think I found the pellet amount/flow sweet spot for my tank.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The problem is that the zeo sales literature claims:

"ZEOstart accelerates the cycling process in new tanks. Fishes, hard and soft corals can be added safely in approximately 3 weeks after adding water to a new tank. "

That is not just a carbon source, or if it is, it is misleadingly described and is really intended to be used with other products that actually do the cycling. One cannot cycle a tank by just adding vinegar.

[acesq]

The problem is that the zeo sales literature claims:

"ZEOstart accelerates the cycling process in new tanks. Fishes, hard and soft corals can be added safely in approximately 3 weeks after adding water to a new tank. "

That is not just a carbon source, or if it is, it is misleadingly described and is really intended to be used with other products that actually do the cycling. One cannot cycle a tank by just adding vinegar.

You can't cycle a tank by just adding a carbon source? Even in a home environment? I know you need the bacteria, and we typically introduce it with some live rock, but aren't some of the necessary strains fairly ubiquitous such that it can be done with fresh salt water and vinegar?

Regardless, to be fair to KZ, the program does call for the regular additions of both the carbon source and the bacteria in order to cycle the tank in 14 days and lower but continued additions of both thereafter.

That said, I understand, and share, your skepticism over the claims of companies that do not publish their ingredients.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, if you start with dry rock and add salt water and vinegar, you will get bacteria, but not the nitrifying bacteria bacteria needed to drive the nitrogen cycle. You need a source of ammonia. :)

[Spracklcat]

No direct experience myself, but when the pellets don't tumble they start to stick together and then act as a detritus trap, probably going anaerobic in the interior as they degrade and may end up working against you.

Why is this bad? How do you know?

[EddieJ]

The problem is that the zeo sales literature claims:

"ZEOstart accelerates the cycling process in new tanks. Fishes, hard and soft corals can be added safely in approximately 3 weeks after adding water to a new tank. "

That is not just a carbon source, or if it is, it is misleadingly described and is really intended to be used with other products that actually do the cycling. One cannot cycle a tank by just adding vinegar.

ZeoStart 2 & 3 are not intended to be used as a stand alone product. It must be used with ZeoBak, ZeoFood and the ZeoLiths (rocks). That is the basic 4 that can have a tank ready to go in 14 days. You do have to use live rock as well, if you use dry rock your time will be greatly extended.

ZeoBak is the bacteria, ZeoStart is the carbon source along with ZeoFood/Sponge Power and the Zeoliths are the media on which the bacteria colonize. Of course that is not the only place. I will say that ZeoStart is a highly concentrated carbon source, as I am dosing 1.2 ML a day on my 250 gallon system and that was a bit much and caused some cyano. On my previous tank I used to dose around 12ML of Vodka with the same basic livestock load.

In any event, I don't read word for word any of the Zeovit literature as the English translation is not always the best. I have read some of Thomas Pohl's posts (creator of Zeovit system) and his English is not the best to say the least.

So anyhow, back on topic, I experienced cyano due to excessive carbon dosing (not with BioPellets, but with ZeoStart) in a tank that was at 0 Nitrates and very low (.01-.02) phosphates.

[acesq]

Well, if you start with dry rock and add salt water and vinegar, you will get bacteria, but not the nitrifying bacteria bacteria needed to drive the nitrogen cycle. You need a source of ammonia. :)

I know we are a bit off-topic, but I am curious about your statement.

Theoretically at least, is ammonia produced by the bacterial consumption of the carbon source? If so, would this allow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria?

[burnah]

is it true that there are 2 strains (i know, wont be that easy ;)) of cyano, one that lives in nutrient rich, and the other one in almost nutrient free water? thats what the owner of my LFS explained to me. you can get cyano by too many nutrients or too little nutrients.

most strategies for killing cyanos have so far been (in my point of view) for tanks with too many nutrients, and thus not applicable for tanks like ours, carbon dosed.

i wonder whether there can be a strategie to solve this? things ive tried so far: water changes, sucking it out, adding BIODIGEST in doses for highly polluted water to drive up beneficial bacteria, lights out, more flow. NOTHING helped. i have crystal clear water, happy corals and fish but the cyano will not vanish, even after stopping carbon dosing.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know we are a bit off-topic, but I am curious about your statement.

Theoretically at least, is ammonia produced by the bacterial consumption of the carbon source? If so, would this allow the growth of the nitrifying bacteria?

There is no nitrogen source in vinegar (or vodka) to allow production of ammonia. It is metabolized to CO2 and water only.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ZeoStart 2 & 3 are not intended to be used as a stand alone product. It must be used with ZeoBak, ZeoFood and the ZeoLiths (rocks). That is the basic 4 that can have a tank ready to go in 14 days. You do have to use live rock as well, if you use dry rock your time will be greatly extended.

ZeoBak is the bacteria, ZeoStart is the carbon source along with ZeoFood/Sponge Power and the Zeoliths are the media on which the bacteria colonize. Of course that is not the only place. I will say that ZeoStart is a highly concentrated carbon source, as I am dosing 1.2 ML a day on my 250 gallon system and that was a bit much and caused some cyano. On my previous tank I used to dose around 12ML of Vodka with the same basic livestock load.



That makes more sense, although I do not see then what Zeostart actually does. Nitrifying bacteria are generally claimed in the literature to be chemolithotrophs and do not (cannot) take up organic matter for metabolism, so I fail to see how adding an organic carbon sources speeds that process in the slightest.

It would speed denitrification, as well all know.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

is it true that there are 2 strains (i know, wont be that easy ;)) of cyano, one that lives in nutrient rich, and the other one in almost nutrient free water? thats what the owner of my LFS explained to me. you can get cyano by too many nutrients or too little nutrients.

.

There are tons of species of cyanobacteria. Some may be more suited to lower nutrient environments than others, but I think the idea that lower nutrients cause a particular type to grow more than that same species would at higher nutrient levels and everything else the same is just not cutting it, IMO. In general, lowering phosphate low enough without adding anything else can almost always eliminate cyano.

While I do not doubt there might be a case of something somewhere, I've never heard of any type of bacteria or algae that is deterred by elevated nutrients until those nutrients rise so incredibly high that they become toxic (like acetate/acetic acid rising all the way to being vinegar, which kills bacteria).

OTOH, competition changes as nutrient levels change, and a particular species of cyano might be outcompeted by other organisms at higher or lower nutrient levels, but at just the right levels it is the dominant consumer in the tank. The Goldilocks cyano. :D

[acesq]

There is no nitrogen source in vinegar (or vodka) to allow production of ammonia. It is metabolized to CO2 and water only.

Got it. Thanks!

[ihavtats29]

i read this on a site with a write up on NP Bio Pellets

"On average this “solid vodka method” takes 2-4 weeks to give rise to sufficient bacteria to allow nitrate and phosphate levels to drop."

if so removing other media like GFO and phosphate sponges ext and starting the bio pellets you may get a change in parameters causing these cyano outbreaks.
BRS also states that allowing 8 weeks for proper bacteria propagation.

[t.trezona]

The bad thing that I have experience is if you turn it off for a day or two, the anerobic bacteria starts to build up and blacken the media temporary. When you restart it, it releases sulfur into the system.

Another thing is that it clumps when there aren't enough flow or that there is too much "film" inside the reactor. I had to switch to different reactors multiple time, but in the end, you just have to clean the pellets once a week.

Ya, that's a potential problem I don't like either. So, I wired mine so that if the power goes off it stays off when the power comes back on. Then I have bypass valving so that I can flush the reactor down the drain when I start back up.

[m2434]

There are tons of species of cyanobacteria. Some may be more suited to lower nutrient environments than others, but I think the idea that lower nutrients cause a particular type to grow more than that same species would at higher nutrient levels and everything else the same is just not cutting it, IMO. In general, lowering phosphate low enough without adding anything else can almost always eliminate cyano.

While I do not doubt there might be a case of something somewhere, I've never heard of any type of bacteria or algae that is deterred by elevated nutrients until those nutrients rise so incredibly high that they become toxic (like acetate/acetic acid rising all the way to being vinegar, which kills bacteria).

OTOH, competition changes as nutrient levels change, and a particular species of cyano might be outcompeted by other organisms at higher or lower nutrient levels, but at just the right levels it is the dominant consumer in the tank. The Goldilocks cyano. :D


Well, one reason cyano may be associated with low nutrient environments is luxury consumption of nutrients, particularly P. So, when other competitors are dying off, it may have reserves left to keep going.

One question I have though, is seeing that some cyano strains seems to accumulate PHAs, such as Poly-β-hydroxybutyrate (PHB) and many biopellets are PHA based, is there any reason to assume that cyano would not be well adapted to use external PHA sources?

Seems that a lot of people experience some cyano with BP, and this seems like a likely connection as far as I can tell anyways...


For example:
From Bhati et al. (2010)

"Poly‐β‐hydroxybutyrate accumulation in cyanobacteria under photoautotrophy"


Abstract

Poly-β-hydroxybutyrate (PHB) is a biodegradable and biocompatible polymer that has immense potential in the field of environmental, agricultural and biomedical sciences. An alternative host system has been explored in this study for low-cost production. Examination of 25 cyanobacterial species from 19 different genera for photoautrophic production of polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHAs) under batch culture demonstrated that 20 species were poly-β-hydroxybutyrate (PHB) accumulators, while others were found to be negative. Presence of PHB was confirmed by UV-spectroscopy, 1H-NMR spectroscopy and GC-MS analysis. Accumulation of PHB in cyanobacteria was found to be species specific. The PHB extracted from Nostoc muscorum exhibited comparable material properties with the commercial PHB, thus advocating its potential applications in various fields.

[m2434]

Another Question I had is, has anyone run the BP effluent through GAC instead of a skimmer? And if so, what was your experience. It seems likely that BP is releasing something, but is that something bacteria or carbon directly. Bacteria, once in the system, without a carbon source could break down into organic carbon. So, diner way you could end up raising C in he display. From what I've seen, GAC may be better at removing organic carbon, but probably less efficient at removing bacteria. So, it would be interesting to see if running the effluent through GAC improved the outcome.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That's an interesting thought. The GAC might bind released organics directly, and might also be a good substrate for bacteria to grow on that would consume them (my GAC gets bacteria coated with vinegar dosing). :)

[amfynn]

A few years ago it was believed that cyano was caused from carbon dosing driving nitrates down to zero.

Under a zero nitrate (or so low its undetectable) condition. Cyano thrives because they can pull carbon from the atmosphere while the bacteria we are trying to grow starves.
In other words we remove their competition when we dose carbon and allow nitrate to go to zero.

You perhaps have more info relating to this? Should one then purposefully try and up their nitrates in an effort to fix the problem?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is presumably a typo in the above quote. It should read

"Cyano thrives because they can pull nitrogen from the atmosphere"

That is one reason why phosphate reduction is a good way to go after cyano (like with GFO) when nitrate reduction may not be.

[EddieJ]

There is presumably a typo in the above quote. It should read

"Cyano thrives because they can pull nitrogen from the atmosphere"

That is one reason why phosphate reduction is a good way to go after cyano (like with GFO) when nitrate reduction may not be.

So in a very low nitrate and phosphate environment, cyano can use the carbon source as it's fuel one would assume correct? As it does show up in ULN systems as well.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, cyanobacteria can use organic carbon for energy, at least some organic molecules. A variety of articles suggest that some species do not use vinegar (acetate) well.

But it still needs N and P. Those are not used for energy, they are used to make organic molecules of life, like proteins, DNA, phospholipids, etc. Some cyano species may be able to get N from N2 from the air, but P must come from phosphate of some sort (organic or inorganic) in the water.

[t.trezona]

Another Question I had is, has anyone run the BP effluent through GAC instead of a skimmer? And if so, what was your experience. It seems likely that BP is releasing something, but is that something bacteria or carbon directly. Bacteria, once in the system, without a carbon source could break down into organic carbon. So, diner way you could end up raising C in he display. From what I've seen, GAC may be better at removing organic carbon, but probably less efficient at removing bacteria. So, it would be interesting to see if running the effluent through GAC improved the outcome.

Problem with that is that it looks like the bacteria that grow on the pellets create sticky slime that would probably clog up GAC pretty quickly. I would guess a mucopolysaccharide of some sort. Many people report slime strings that come off the pellets. I know in my system it clogs my reactor outlet screen fairly quickly.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If that slime is a simple organic material rather than a bacterial mat, perhaps that is what the remote cyanobacteria are eating. :)

Slime in general, however, could be mats of the bacteria themselves. :)

[amfynn]

Thank you Randy, certainly has given me something to ponder about.

[m2434]

There is presumably a typo in the above quote. It should read

"Cyano thrives because they can pull nitrogen from the atmosphere"


Well, in all fairness, cyano can pull carbon from the atmosphere too :D

Back to "seriousness"

It would be great to somehow quantify how much bacteria can be exported on the surface of GAC. Though really, I have no guess even. I would think you could guesstimate the surface area of the GAC. Are there any useful estimates of biofilm density that would apply to films living on the surface of GAC?

Also, as to the stringy stuff. I haven't heard this as a complaint, maybe it depends on the BP? Also, does that not effect a skimmer? Seems "bioslime" junks up skimmer pumps pretty good too IME.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, in all fairness, cyano can pull carbon from the atmosphere too :D

.

Quite true. Maybe it wasn't a typo, but if not, the paragraph overall doesn't make sense. :)

I wouldn't know how to estimate bacteria on GAC. The surface area available to bacteria may not even be known for many types.

[Johnyman]

Well my setup is straight forward.

Skimz SM201 Rated for 580g
3 X Vortech Mp40
2X Koralia Evo
160lbs of Rock
100lbs lbs of Live Sand
Metal Halide Radiums 20K X 2 250w + 4x T5 54w Ati Blue Plus

I'm running my BRS biopellets in a NextReef MR1 Reactor with NextReef's Biopellet conversion Kit. I started with a full load and immediately got a big bacterial bloom which went away after 2 or 3 days. Water cleared up and then I got crazy amount of skimmate. After this it all settled down.

Tested parameters and everything zeroed out. I am however getting Cyano Algae During the day which goes away after the main lights go out... Then by half day I got cyano again. I haven't done a major water change since but I plan to do one tonight. I switched my salt to ReefCrystals and have been raising my Alk and Magnesium over the last 2 weeks. My Effluent from the bio-pellet reactor dumps right into the mouth of my skimmer so a lot of the water is pulled into the skimmer. I think that once I siphon out my sand and a lot of the cyano that my problem will go away. I've started the red-sea coral program which I've seen AMAZING results. I highly reccomend it over zeovit only because its easier to get, easier to dose, and everything you dose you can measure the level of it in your water. Its helluva lot cheaper too.

Hi asonitez, you are using the Red Sea Program with Bio-Pellets or you quit the Biopellets to start using the Red Sea Program?

[asonitez]

Nope I'm still using the red sea program. I found out that my corals paled a bit due to stripping the water. The aminos from the red sea program is bring back my colors. I've also increased my fish bioload. I only and 7 small fish in. 150 lol.... With over 300 gal volume. I increased to about 12 fish.

[t.trezona]

If that slime is a simple organic material rather than a bacterial mat, perhaps that is what the remote cyanobacteria are eating. :)

Slime in general, however, could be mats of the bacteria themselves. :)

Ok let's find out about this. Next week when I am back in the country I will make some slides of the stuff and study it in the pathology dept at my hospital. Although I'm a surgeon I have a graduate degree in microbial genetics. Fairly likely if it is a bacterial matt it will be fairly easy for our pathologists and myself to identify.

[burnah]

looking forward to that!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok let's find out about this. Next week when I am back in the country I will make some slides of the stuff and study it in the pathology dept at my hospital. Although I'm a surgeon I have a graduate degree in microbial genetics. Fairly likely if it is a bacterial matt it will be fairly easy for our pathologists and myself to identify.

Want a little fun with them? Tell them it is something you coughed up and see what their response is when they look at it. :D

[t.trezona]

Want a little fun with them? Tell them it is something you coughed up and see what their response is when they look at it. :D

Pathologists are a very serious group. Your never supposed to tell them where you got a specimen from. Their supposed to figure it out on their own. We'll see what they come up with.

[Spracklcat]

Best of luck getting an ID on those species--they likely aren't in most clinical bacterial databases for usual ID systems (Biolog, Vitek etc) so you'd have to run 16S RNA. Will be curious to see what the results are if they do get something!

[Nizz]

I also wonder how strong everybody's skimmer that use bio pellets? The reason I ask is with the extra film released from the reactor and bacteria. Would a 2x more skimmer power be needed for extra efficiency or would it be more then that or less?

[heckeng]

This is all very interesting to me because I am not experiencing any of the negatives. I am wondering if I am just VERY lucky. I have a 90 gallon tank that has 4 small fish, snails, crabs, and I would guess around 100 lbs of live rock. Before BP, I had a constant cyano issue that was not horrible, but very annoying. I have been using a Reef Octopus SRO 1000int skimmer which is great but certainly not oversized. I added the Reef Octopus BP reactor (the smallest one) and am using about 1/2 to 2/3 the recommended amount of BPs. It is being driven by a Mag 3 and controlled by a ball valve. I keep the pellets tumbling smoothly throughout the column but down near the base of the BP reactor where the water gets injected into the media, the velocity of the pellets is pretty high which I believe removes any "slime" that would have accumulated on them. I have never seen any bacterial slime in the reactor or the tank which sounds like I am in the minority. All of the cyano has also disappeared as well. I use the Reef Octopus Bio Spheres as my medium, but have not tried any others. I only used it because I figured it was sized appropriately for their reactors.

Am I the only one who is having actual success with these things?

[t.trezona]

If that slime is a simple organic material rather than a bacterial mat, perhaps that is what the remote cyanobacteria are eating. :)

Slime in general, however, could be mats of the bacteria themselves. :)

OK, I'm back and the results are in!
Not spectacular and probably not even putting anything to rest.
Here is what I did: I harvested my pellets, which have been on-line for 6 months (W-M EcoBak) and slime/gunk from my reactor screen, and the same from my lines. My lines, screen, valves, and pump impeller are all being plugged up with the same stuff. I made slides of everything, including the pellets. The gunk was placed on slides, fixed, and stained. The pellets were placed in gel and dropped into liquid nitrogen on cutting blocks. The blocks were placed on a cutting machine and sliced a few microns thick. The slices were dropped on slides and then stained, same as the gunk slides. This was done in my hospital pathology lab and examined by myself and two pathologists at 400X, 800X, and 1200X. This is the same technique used to make "frozen sections" used to study human tissue in the operating room during surgery.
There is an amorphus material that looks like thin sliced plastic noted on every slide, whether it was the pellets or the gunk. On the pellets there were a few, and surprisingly few, coccobacillus and larger cocci bacteria. There was no bacterial matt anywhere. I expected to see a bacterial matt on the surface of the pellets but did not. The gunk on my lines bascally looks the same as the pellets. Same amorphus material. What does it mean?? Hard to know. Could it be possible the pellets are simply releasing the organic polymer into the circulation and the action is happening in our tank, rather than the reactor, more like any liquid carbon dosing??? Why is the gunk sticking to the lines, valves, and impeller???
What do you think??

[Spracklcat]

When I cultured the pellets, I did certainly find bacteria, both aerobic and anaerobic. Could be that it isn't a frank mat, like we'd see with Beggiatoa or something, but something thinner. I also suspect that you are correct in that much of the bacteria is either growing in the water column or elsewhere in the system. I'm trying to work out a way to test the water for the polymer or a degradation product of it.

[burnah]

i have had the pellets in a sock for a month, and i start to see results. loads of stringy slimy stuff, skimmer works crazy, "biofilm" on rocks and glass, although the buildup is reducing by now. algae growth has halted, cyano has gotten a little less. water clarity is outstanding, and i got 0 on N and P although i suspect my testkits to be broken this seems legit. will continue to report...

thank you for analyzing this stuff, although i cant imagine what it could be either. maybe some polysaccharid slime produced by the bacteria as a wasteproduct or for attaching to surfaces? i really imagined it to be strictly bacterial matter, astonishing findings! anyone else considered having a look at it to verify? i have a microscope but do neither have HE nor gram stain.

[Vipete1985]

Do you have any evidence to support the first part of that assertion?

The only evidence I have is from personal experience of what happened with my tank, my pellets clogged up due to a slow flow n within a few days cyano everywhere but as I replaced the pump n got the pellets tumbling at a high rate cyano dissapeared with a week

[Vipete1985]

One thing worth to note is that no new system should be started off with biopellets, u should allow ur system to go threw proper cycle and age a bit... Let ur system get a chance to build nitrate levels and phosphate so that the biopellets have something to work on....and chances are u may not even have a nitrate or phos issue y even use them if not necessary??

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only evidence I have is from personal experience of what happened with my tank, my pellets clogged up due to a slow flow n within a few days cyano everywhere but as I replaced the pump n got the pellets tumbling at a high rate cyano dissapeared with a week

OK, thanks. :)

[ivans75]

Cyano is probably the most commonly reported problem when people use pellets.

There are many reasons I do not use them, but these might be considered "advantages" of other types of organics, rather than "problems" with pellets. In any case, here's the list of what concerns me about them:

1. Harder to quickly control and adjust dosing than soluble organics.
2. More tendency to potentially cause cyano than some soluble organics such as acetate.
3. More expensive and requires equipment purchases for use (although a doser for soluble organics also costs if you use one)
4. Not as easy to control where and when the dosing takes place in the overall reef system
5. The released organics are perhaps not as widely bioavailable to reef creatures as things like acetate or ethanol
6. Possibly more of a concern for hydrogen sulfide production during a power failure.
+1 here Randy, I am using a biopellet and I am having cyano on my sand surface. I was wondering where do they come from as got 0 nitrate and close to zero phosphate. That's where the source of nutrient. The biopelet is releasing nutrient. I think the undisolved nutrient from the biopelets reactor fuel the cyano. Sometime I see them blacken out and die but they come back the bastard.

I tried dosing the tank with sugar but it doesnt work.

[ivans75]

The only evidence I have is from personal experience of what happened with my tank, my pellets clogged up due to a slow flow n within a few days cyano everywhere but as I replaced the pump n got the pellets tumbling at a high rate cyano dissapeared with a week


I have a 500 gallon marine pool on the top of my apartment, it has 2000 ml of biopellets on 2 reactors and they re moving and fluidizing at slow speed. I don't see any algae on all the sides of fibreglass pool. No cyano presents. Thoughts?

[mcurtis]

OK, thanks. :)

Randy, i was going to send you a PM on this but you have PM's blocked. So my question to you is what would you recommend for controlling nitrates and phosphates: algae scrubber, biopellets, vinegar dosing, something else? I respect your knowledge and opinions and would like to see what you would recommend.

Thanks!

[cbellm]

I am glad you all are debating this. I have been highly concidering putting one on my tank but after reading this I am going to reconcider and try some other methods of getting rid of nucance algae

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, i was going to send you a PM on this but you have PM's blocked. So my question to you is what would you recommend for controlling nitrates and phosphates: algae scrubber, biopellets, vinegar dosing, something else? I respect your knowledge and opinions and would like to see what you would recommend.


I use macroalgae growth in three large rock filled refugia, vinegar dosing, skimming, GAC and GFO on my system. There are lots of other good methods as well, but these are what I prefer. :)

[mcurtis]

I use macroalgae growth in three large rock filled refugia, vinegar dosing, skimming, GAC and GFO on my system. There are lots of other good methods as well, but these are what I prefer. :)

Thank you for that insight.

[ziyaadb]

tagging

[Whalehead9]

When first time I used pellets on my own tank, I had the same cyano problems at about the 8 month mark. I noticed it on the sand and low flow areas in the tank. I tried to get cute and use an organic scavenger that lead to ther death of a huge Chicken liver Sponge that I did not notice even growing. Alas Tank crash and SPS doom followed.

The next two times I have used them in clients aquariums, and have eliminated cyano problems. One at 1 yr, and one at 6 months then discontinued after power outage.

Here is what I think. (All single series N1 experiments. Your results may vary)

The recommended dosages are wrong for extended use. Using a fraction of the recommended amount it took longer to bring down NO3 and PO4. In cases neither are at optimal levels, but smaller water changes are now more effective at fixing this problem.

I think of it as the Sorcerer's Apprentice problem. At first the buildup of biofilms in the reactor grows quickly and begins to breakdown the appropriate waste. As the film grows new microbes grow and break free some get skimmed out and some make it the display. Some survive in the aquarium substrate and over time reduce waste there.

At some point the films either have to bioregulate and stop reproducing in the aquarium, or rogue microbes begin to feed on them or their by products, like cyano.(if you've made your own saurkraut, its akin to the mold that can form at the top of the jar.) Adding more carbon, is like Mickey taking an axe to the Mops. The problem is that there are already too many microbes doing what we want. Now every spot of everything is covered with thick biofilms.

It would be worthwhile for someone to cut their Biopellet amount by half once Cyano appears, or using half the recommended amount accompanied with GFO and Carbon. I set up my first Reef when Albert Theil was the man with the Silver bullet. I can tell you that there isn't one. Biopellets are handy, but not a cure all.

[angelo68]

I setup a Reef Octopus BR-140 with 1500ml (1/2gallon) of BRS BioPellets on my 240gallon established in 2007 tank. The tank was not in the best shape as there was a large amount of hair algae throughout. I purchased a RO/DI system and I was doing 80 gallon water changes 2 times a week until I got my nitrates below 20ppm. I also purchased a Super Reef Octopus XP5000 external skimmer to get things online. On the 6th week of the Bio Pellets a cyano breakout that only covered the shaded areas under the rock work. On the 7th week the water turned cloudy so I removed 1/2 the pellets without change to the water cloudiness and on the 8th week I removed 1/2 of the remaining pellets and started dosing Microbacter7 and noticed the water was a little clearer. Now it's been about 9 weeks and most of the algae is gone and the cyano has all but cleared but the water is still cloudy so I'm thinking about removing 1/2 of what's left in the reactor and continue to dose the Microbacter7. The crazy thing about these pellets is once I turn off the feeder pump it always jams up with the pellets and I have to take it apart to clear it out, What a Pain! It has a check valve built into it but it doesn't work. I'll let you know how things go.

[Bobbofin]

I've been having sporadic cyano breakouts sine using bio-pellets. I'm wondering if i should remove them and go back to seachem phosguard.

I was running carbon and SeaChem Phosguard in a BRS reactor along with a Jns bio-pellet reactor. I started getting cyano so I took the reactor off line afew days ago and we'll see if it goes away.

[brshriver]

Is there anyone with experience with a recirculating bio pellet reactor that allows you to control the dosage rate?

[brshriver]

I am thinking or modding an old calcium reactor to try this.

[Sparky0028]

I beileve there is a company that has made a reactor with adjustable flow control. Not sure if i can post the web on this forum.
Rich

[brshriver]

They are out there for sure. I have seen good short term reviews but not much from the hobbyist in the field yet. They are essentially calcium reactors with no CO2 feed. The one on the market allows independent control of the flow through the device as well as control of how much the media tumbles.

[timvdb]

I have been using bio pellets for just under a year now with disappointing results. Skimmer was pulling out black stuff like crazy but the system was continuously using up a lot of potassium. All params were nsw and supplemented with balling light. I was dosing a potassium supplement daily and feeding zeovit supplements. Water changes were done using a premium salt. SPS were still suffering from basal STN. Something was not right so i decided a change in strategy.

I decided to go back to simple carbon dosing and i was looking for a product that would be dosable automatically and decided to go for redsea's nopox. I have started dosing 4ml/ day in a 220 net liter system.

When i pulled out the pellets, there was a very faint smell of sulphur even though the pellets were tumbling well.

Question to the chemists: is there a possible reaction between a possible Sulphur compound/byproduct of the pellets with K that could explain why the system used up so much K beyond the bacterial activity?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[S2minute]

Hey folks, i decided to take a shot at Vertex Bio Pellets. My system is large, 410 gals net water volume. It's alittle different then normal too. It's based on Steve Tyrees Environmental Gradient,(multi-tank), system. The cryptic tank has a DSB that's been up and running on it's 4th year now. The DT had a real GHA outbreak a few months ago BUT, not because of the DSB. It was because of neglect on my part due to the fact i'm building the same home i'm living in ATM. I've since been tackling the problem with agressive husbandry and winning my DT back . I also employ a small army of hungry grazers!.
At night, i doze via a liter meter 3 from a 5 gal bucket a solution of Kalk/vinegar. I have a T from my main return and from this i recently installed an omnifilter(with a sediment filter),and from that a TLF 150 phosban canister that has 2.5 cups of RX 0.8 carbon from BRS. Chained to THAT, i placed a 2nd TLF phosban canister and in this i placed 400ml of the Vertex. This is then returned to the DT, not the sump where the skimmer is. This amount is 1/2 the minimum required. I diden't add the Vertex to get rid of the GHA. I'm convinced i can do this how i stated above. I added it to see if it will help feed the life in the DT and sponges in the cryptic tank. My readings for NO3 & PO4 are undetectable. I had LET to much detritus build up from neglect.
I change out nearly 50gals of water per week by blowing out the rock then syphoning out the bare bottom of the DT. The ball valve of the T is wide open to get good movement in the Vertex canister and i can give it more by closing the ball valve to the DT somewhat. It's been running now for 3 hours now , the lights are out, a 3' filter sock is on and the ETS is running normally and the DT is not cloudy..YET . Before using Vertex i'd use liquid Bacteral solution i can't remember the name of it now but, i had good results with it. At first, i'd get this brown cayno like in patches all over but, i could easily blow it away with a powerhead and remove it and it would never persist. From what i understand the cayno was competing with the GHA and thus helping to remove it? Anyway, i diden't intend to jack this thread i hope i diden't. I'll try to update the results. I have some pic in my profile, not of the Vertex yet though. Soon, i'll attempt a vid and try to explain better i hope. Till then,

[S2minute]

Here is an update :). It's been a couple of weeks now since i started using the Bio Pellets. For the first week, the water in the DT remained clear. However, i woke one morn to see a slight haze in the DT with lots of stringy Bact, hanging off everywhere in the DT, esp. on what GHA i had. This lasted 2 days, then cleared up. It seems i had exp. brown cayno inbetween weekly water changes where i would dose with a liquid bact solution, before i started using the pellets. Since using the pellets i haven't seen the cayno and it seems the GHA is slowly disappearing. The problem i HAVE been seeing was the method of water movement through the pellets. At first, i was using 1 TLF phosban reactor with a fiberglass screen on the bottom, to replace the mesh. I doubled up the screen. It ran OK for a few days then the flow through started to slow to the point where the pellets stopped moving. Also, the Omifilter i used with a sediment filted in line before the phosban reactors, was lasting only 4-5 days before it impede flow and have to be changed. I removed the sediment filter in that and will only use in conjuction with the carbon now. I then removed one of the screens and also devided the 400ml of pellets,(1/2 the min amount), among 2 TLFs phosban reactors. The flow was fed via a T off the main return pump. Again, after a couple of days, the same thing. So, this morn i removed the pellets from both reactors and placed them into a 6x12" 300micron mesh filter bag, which fits nicely into a DIY Acrylic box. I placed this box under the output of the ETS. Now, i just have to wait and see how that works. Any other ideas, i'm open to them :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Question to the chemists: is there a possible reaction between a possible Sulphur compound/byproduct of the pellets with K that could explain why the system used up so much K beyond the bacterial activity?



The only way that potassium will be depleted is if you are exporting or incorporating into tissues more than you are adding, and whole bacteria and otherwise whole organisms can contain substantial potassium (as can added foods). You might be skimming out more than you are adding back in foods.

Did you ever test the new salt water for potassium? Maybe it is dropping due to water changes.

Some kits seem to not read potassium very accurately also. :)

[bmkj02]

Here is an update :). It's been a couple of weeks now since i started using the Bio Pellets. For the first week, the water in the DT remained clear. However, i woke one morn to see a slight haze in the DT with lots of stringy Bact, hanging off everywhere in the DT, esp. on what GHA i had. This lasted 2 days, then cleared up. It seems i had exp. brown cayno inbetween weekly water changes where i would dose with a liquid bact solution, before i started using the pellets. Since using the pellets i haven't seen the cayno and it seems the GHA is slowly disappearing. The problem i HAVE been seeing was the method of water movement through the pellets. At first, i was using 1 TLF phosban reactor with a fiberglass screen on the bottom, to replace the mesh. I doubled up the screen. It ran OK for a few days then the flow through started to slow to the point where the pellets stopped moving. Also, the Omifilter i used with a sediment filted in line before the phosban reactors, was lasting only 4-5 days before it impede flow and have to be changed. I removed the sediment filter in that and will only use in conjuction with the carbon now. I then removed one of the screens and also devided the 400ml of pellets,(1/2 the min amount), among 2 TLFs phosban reactors. The flow was fed via a T off the main return pump. Again, after a couple of days, the same thing. So, this morn i removed the pellets from both reactors and placed them into a 6x12" 300micron mesh filter bag, which fits nicely into a DIY Acrylic box. I placed this box under the output of the ETS. Now, i just have to wait and see how that works. Any other ideas, i'm open to them :)

I have a BRS reactor and had the same problem. I removed the filter and placed a mesh. Still did it. Note I also have a filter on the pump itself to keep dirt out but still gets in there. I use a Mag 5. I removed the mesh and made an acrylic piece that I drilled a bunch of holes. Lasted longer. Finally I just did away with it all of it and just threw it in there with no screen at all and its works perfect now. Going on two months. Since they dont float and as long as you tumble it enough that its not going everywhere it stays in the reactor

[S2minute]

Another update. The day after i placed the mash bag with 1/2 the min amount of pellets,(400 ml for my net water volume), in the box where the skimmer output is, i had and am currently dealing with a Bact. explosion. It, overwhelmed the ETS and created a thick slime coating of the sump water surface and made the DT water cloudy with lots of stringy Bact all over. I removed the mesh bag while a very tiny amount..maybe 50 ml of it found itself on the sump floor ,(due to me spilling some). I left this there and cleaned out the ETS plus adjusted the gate valve for "wet" foam. I'm using 3 foot 200 micron filter socks too. They are helping but for now i'm having to rotate them while cleaning in the washing machine,(w/o the soap!!). SO, it seems you only need to use VERY LITTLE of the pellets. My dose was 1/2 the min required! When the Bact bloom clears up, i will use 1/16th the min. required and just let it lay on the bottom of my sump....like it is now.

[S2minute]

Constant rotation of filter socks, using a powerhead to blow off stringy bact. in DT..and a big fish net to scoop out the 1/4" thick dirty film that devoloped on the surface of the 150 rubbermaid sump!...I finally bested it...i hope :). Boy that is nasty stuff. About 50 ml of the pellets remain scattered on the sump floor near the skimmer intake now and i'll leave it there and see what happens with just that amount. I exp. a real issue with a Ph drop during the course of the day. It dipped down to 7.6 and i was getting very concerned. Instead of a water change i buffed with esv part 1 a few times. I know i should not buff to raise Ph but, this was a one time thing. Lights are out now and the Ph seems to be holding steady at 7.95. I'm currently not using any filter socks now as alot of the slimey stuff has been removed. I'd also like to note that before i started using the Vertex, i always doze at night, a solution of kalk/vinegar. I mix approx 95ml of Kalk to 500ml of vinegar and mix with 5 gals of RO water. This lasts 4 nights of dozing. Interested to see what the morn brings!

[TexasMike]

6. Possibly more of a concern for hydrogen sulfide production during a power failure.

In the event of a power failure. How long does it take for hydrogen sulfide to form in the reactor?

-Thanks

[feersomen]

It seems like from reading this thread; biopellets are more trouble than they are worth. amiright?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In the event of a power failure. How long does it take for hydrogen sulfide to form in the reactor?

-Thanks

I do not know. Someone would have to try it, and it may depend on the setup (water volume to pellet ratio in the reactor, temperature, etc). :)

[acesq]

It seems like from reading this thread; biopellets are more trouble than they are worth. amiright?

I wouldn't base a conclusion like that from a thread whose purpose is to identify problems with bio-pellets. You're not going to get many success story responses. There are many people using them successfully, including me. Does that mean they will work equally well in all tanks? As you can see from reading this thread, Nope.

[LeLutinBanni]

I am using the recommended dose of Two Little Fishies NPX Bioplastics in my nano. I can see a BIG difference.

Now, i have to scrub my glasses 1 or 2 times a week and the hairy algaes do not grow anymore.

All my livestock doing well : LPS, softies, nps, zoan/paly and anemones.

I'm dosing Element trace, amino acid and phytoplankton 2 times a week.

I'm feeding my corals 2 to 4 times a week with coral frenzy, dried phyto, homemade food and pellets.

[Brando457]

I just ordered the cad lights reactor and dr. tim pellets, hopefully don't forget it.

[S2minute]

Another update: With only approx: 50 ml of the pellets now sitting on the bottom of the sump, the Bact. bloom is clearing by the day and the stringy stuff is slowly going with it. The ETS 600 skimmer which is powered by a Iwaki 55 RLT, is no longer sucking out matts of dead dirty Bact but is instead producing tons of tinted foam that is alittle on the wet side. I had to switch from a 1 gal jar to a 5 gal bucket to catch all of it lol :hmm5:
Once this finally stablizes i will take some tests. Origionally, my NO3 and PO4 read undectable SO i really don't know why i'd get such a bloom. The GHA i had seems to be taking a hit. Though i do have poor lighting from an ailing MH setup. My Ph has been on the rebound since too. It now levels off at 7.88 at night and seems to be steadily improving each day w/o using esv pt1.
Whether this stuff works for you or not depends i guess on what your looking to have it do. In my case, i just want the Bact to continuiously feed the tank inhabitants like the sponges and various species of other filter feeders. However, i DO believe you only need to use an amount well below the min required. The amont lying on the sump floor now is only about 1/16 the min for my water volume,(about 50 ml). I think this is going to do just fine. IF not, then maybe i'll add 25 or 50 ml more. I get enough flow in the sump to eliminate any dead areas but not enough to make them bounce around in there,(it's a 150 gal rubbermaid sump so the pellets are spread nicely). If you can do that somehow with your setup that might work much better and at the same time , free up some of your equipment too. Till next update! :spin2:

[97EclipseGSX]

Current set up is 125 gallon with a 35 gallon sump. I have been running pellets for 4 months now and I went through the cyano out break as well as everyone else but I did a 30 gallon water change and it got rid of it after a couple of days. Another thing I can verify is the protein skimmer (Reef Octopus) HOB was getting the nasty black stuff while I had the TLF 150 reactor dumping directly into the intake of the protein skimmer. I haven't had the cyano for months now and the tank looks great and the corals are doing awesome. I do daily dose coral accel and coral vite. I never have nitrate, phosphate, or low K problems. I use Coral Reef Pro salt. I've never had to add K yet.

[S2minute]

quick update:

DT has cleared up. It looks CRYSTAL clear. The ETS is going nuts with semi-wet foam i had to switch to a 5 gal bucket. Did a 50 gal water change just after a tank blow out with powerhead. Everything looks VIBRANT...for now >;). Waiting to see if/how much cayno i get. It never lasts. Noticed some new sponge growth in the cryptic tank. This could get interesting...or very ugly :).

[docstomper]

Dr. Tim's pellets are said to be awesome. I went to a meeting down here and he gave very good insight to what bio-pellets are how they work. If I was going to try them I would DEF use Dr. Tim's as he does have a PHD in bacteria. However I am still on the sidelines...

[S2minute]

Well, i obtained a 2nd 1000ml bag of the "Bio Sphere" pellets too. P.A. was out of the Vertex so they sold me that for the same price. I'll try them in the future. I must say though, the manufactures min requirments at least for the Vertex is WAY off. Read my above posts and you'll see the min amount i've used. I have a 3' 200 micron filter bag that i use when i preform tank maint. Sometimes, i'd leave it on and in 2 days it be ready to change. When i left it off, after a week, i'd notice enough detritus on the sump floor to warrent a syphon during maint. I haven't used a filter sock since the bact bloom settled down and now i've noticed a distinct deduction in the buildup of detritus. So far, i'm impressed with this product but, like anythig new you try for your tank, you have to tweek it to fit your needs. Till next time!

[GvineReefer]

I started a new 120-gal in early January 2012. My equipment list includes a NextReef SMR1 bio-pellet reactor that is driven by a Mag 7 that is fed through a manifold that is also feeding a BRS carbon reactor. Bio pellets are WM Ecobak. My skimmer is a Reef Octopus 2000SSS. I started the tank with about 75lbs of Marco Rock that was cured for about 3-4 weeks prior to transferring into the new setup. Sand is Caribsea Sea Flor Special Grade, 50% new sand and 50% old sand that was thoroughly cleaned.

I started using the bio-pellets on day 3 of filling my tank. I started with 1/4 of the recommended dose, as I read about the importance of not overdoing it. My tank stayed clear for the first week and then, as expected, got cloudy. I expected the cloudiness to go away after a few days, but it did not. The glass began getting very dirty and I was having to re-clean it within about an hour two after completely cleaning all 3 sides. I figured this was a bacterial bloom and it would go away. This began in late mid to late January and to this day, my tank is still cloudy. My pellets are tumbling well, not violently and not too little. Effluent is going straight into the skimmer. I have not added any additional pellets, still at 1/4 the recommended amount for my size tank. I am at my whits end trying to figure out what to do to get the cloudiness/dirty glass syndrome away. I do have fish and corals in the tank now, as I was forced to take down the 110-gal holding tank and transfer everything over to the new 120 (nagging wifey wanted her room back). The bacterial bloom began and stayed with only a small tail spot blenny in the tank, but I obviously have a higher bio-load now, with no changes. I started dosing MB7 based on a recommendation from a fellow reefer, but stopped after not seeing an improvement after about a month of use. I am to the point that I will be unplugging the reactor and going back to running GFO if I can't figure this out soon. This has been the most frustrating experience in my reefing career, hands down. I have spent thousands on a brand new setup and have been looking at a cloudy tank for almost 3 months now. Needless to say, I'm willing to do anything/everything to go back to having a tank I enjoy looking at.

Anyone have thoughts?

[doctorgori]

My tank was cloudy for a week I think...I dosed MB7 for lack of something better to do and it cleared up...I wouldn't swear there was a coorelation but it did clear coincidentally ...

[DBSAM]

I am using NP biopellets for the last 12 months.

Each time I have had a cloudy tank...Zeos Coral Snow and ZeoBak mixed cleared the tank pretty quick...

What is your NO3 at?

I have used Hach's NI-14 kit with there calibration liquids to calculate may chloride interference and am confident I am very, very low on NO3(<1.5) so I believe the pellets have worked just like anything watch what's going on.

[BossHoggin]

I recently implemented a phosban 150 reactor with Pro-bio pellets in my 50 gallon mixed reef to battle nitrates and phosphates and the nuisance algae that comes with them. I have good directional flow in areas with coral so a little cyano doesn't bother me much... It hasn't changed much since I set it up about a month ago anyway.

[wayne in norway]

I worked with biopellets for about 7 months trying to get them to work for me. I'd previously dosed liquid carbon , Fauna Marin Ultrabak which is a cocktail. This worked well for me, but I need to get it online from Germany ( a faff) and hoped to get rid of that and reduce maintentance. Also I'd seen some tanks work very well (online descriptions).

I used a Deltec FR reactor. I have about 700 litres of water, and the reactor sat in a sump with my skimmer, a Chinese cone pulling circa 750lph of air , and a consistently good perfoermer. At first all is well, except annoying clumping of the pellets requires daily maintenance (tumblig a la zeovit). If this isn't done I get signs of increased nitrate and phosphate ( I normally have trace and trace).
To fix this I changed the feed pump for a larger one as more flow will reduce clumping and thus maintenance. However after a few days I started experience this clods of cyano starting to appear, mostly on the sand but also sticking to some rock. I am well aware of where nitrate and phosphate are distributed in out tanks, and am not normally bothered by a little bit of cyano, but this was a considerable nuisance. I employed my usual toolbag to fix this, and it helped to a degree, but I could not get rid of it. My flow was improved, sandbed investigated, increased GFO and carbon used et al., but it persisted.
Clearly something was feeding this. I made the decision to drop the pellets and go back to Ultrabak. Within days the problem is receding, and after a month it is effectively gone. Note that at no time did any of my SPS show signs of ill health or lost colour, growth, but still cyano was popping up everywhere.

I find the bacterial study earlier very interesting - the notion that the bacteria are staying in the reactor seems at best 'hopeful to me. I feel that using these requires a stroke of luck, and it's a fine line between not enough and too much flow.

[S2minute]

Since my last update, i've added another 50 ml of the vertex for a total of 100 ml. This is now 1/8 the min recomended. This is all sitting on the bottom of my 150 gal rubbermaid where the flow from the DT is plummed. As the DT flow into the sump is plummed under the waterline, this area is very turbulent. The pellets formed a wide line just around one side of this flow. This is good because this line is now inbetween the flow into the sump and the skimmer intake. Hope you can follow that heh :fun4:. The skimmer has settled and is producing some nice foam. The Ph has rebounded and is currently....8.06 @ 76.7 F as of 8:50am est. The VHO 03s just came on 20 mins ago. The tank is clear. The GHA i am dealing with atm is dying off. I've had NO brown cayno since i added this stuff. I HAD RED stuff in many places towards the lower 1/2 of the DT where one of the MH stopped running due to a ballast failure,(i'm also working on a huge DIY LED fixture, see muh albums), BUT, since the addition of the Vertex, it's ALL gone. SO far, i've done 2- 50gal weekly water changes since the Bact. bloom settled and i've not had to syphone off any Detritus from the bottom of the sump because the buildup is now so much less. Till next time :thumbsup:

[badonkadonk]

Why is this bad? How do you know?

This is going back a few pages, a question in response to my statement that if the pellets don't tumble they stick together, and may form a detritus trap and go anaerobic as a result of their impermeability:

Short answer is I don't know, but have some ideas. Anaerobic zones aren't necessarily bad - in fact they are good in that they perform often "complementary" or unique functions to aerobic zones. Sediments are typically anaerobic an inch or two below the surface zone in quiescent (low energy) locations. Even in our tanks, for those that have relatively large grain size aragonitic sands (i.e. permeable material) as a deep sand bed, anaerobic zones set up over time (thanks in large part to the accumulation of smaller particle size detritus which fills pore spaces in the sand), anaerobic zones build up. It is not until these anaerobic zones are disturbed through stirring of the sand are there problems in the water column due to release of reduced substance such as sulfides (though aged deep sand beds, like mine that I removed a couple of years ago, also seem to cause problems due to the production and release of nutrients/reduced compounds/nasties to the water column).

It's a little different for biodegradable polymers however. The detritus in these anaerobic clumps of pellets degrade and release nasties to the water column, but the polymer itself is also likely broken down to intermediate incomplete degradation compounds, which is very different from the aerobic pathways. These intermediates may then be released to the water column where they may cause problems directly, or indirectly such as being deposited on glass, rock etc., where they may then serve as a nutrient sink. The great advantage of bio pellets is purportedly the immobilized nature of the carbon source, where the bacteria can then be localized, fed to the protein skimmer, and nutrients exported. Perhaps this is the reason cyano or other bacterial blooms result in some tanks where the carbon source is disseminated throughout the tank. While I have no direct evidence that this is what happens (and there are many other possibilities), anecdotal accounts seem to support this.

Also, in general, hydrocarbons (which biopellet polymers can be considered), are degraded to carbon dioxide and water in aerobic systems, but are created in anaerobic systems (fossil fuels); in other words, very different biochemistry is taking place. The advantage of biopellets is realized in aerobic settings where the polymer provides a carbon source in our carbon-limited systems, to keep up with N and P which are all too plentiful in our little closed systems. The carbon in the polymer is released and/or broken down and assimilated by the bacteria, which also scrub the troublesome N and P from the water column to create biomass (or use it as an energy source).

But in the end, you're right, I don't really know, but bio pellets seem to be the best thing for my tank since GFO (and much better, at least for me, since they promote biological uptake of nutrients and are easier to prevent overstripping the water of what is needed for coral growth like the purely chemical-based removal actions of GFO, which also binds-out other compounds/elements besides phosphate).

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also, in general, hydrocarbons (which biopellet polymers can be considered), are degraded to carbon dioxide and water in aerobic systems, but are created in anaerobic systems (fossil fuels); in other words, very different biochemistry is taking place. The advantage of biopellets is realized in aerobic settings where the polymer provides a carbon source in our carbon-limited systems, to keep up with N and P which are all too plentiful in our little closed systems. The carbon in the polymer is released and/or broken down and assimilated by the bacteria, which also scrub the troublesome N and P from the water column to create biomass (or use it as an energy source).

.

Actually I take exception to the statement that hydrocarbons are generated in anaerobic marine environments. Fossil fuels were made by buried organics being partially degraded, not by organics being generated.

In a marine environment, I do not believe that any hydrocarbons are generated. What would be the driving force?

I detail the anaerobic processes that take place in this article:

Hydrogen Sulfide and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rhf/index.php

[badonkadonk]

You misunderstood the intent of that statement. I was not saying that organic (plant, animal) material is deposited on the seafloor and is converted to fossil fuel (although this certainly does happen in estuarine systems, where the area is rich with plants that are eventually buried beneath a mix of sediment and overlying organics), I was using the example to illustrate (to the casual reader) that aerobic and anaerobic processes are very different - one working to mineralize hydrocarbons (aerobic) and the other to convert organic material to a very reduced state (i.e. the anaerobic conditions which lead to fossil fuels).

Along the California coast, where the waters are rich with nutrients due to upwelling, the kelp grows thick, and if you find a low energy depression while diving and care to stir up the muck you can actually find some areas with methanogenesis taking place not far beneath the surface. It is likely that some of the decaying organic material was deposited relatively recently and, I would surmise, is on its way to eventually becoming fossil fuel. The Pacific plate, which I am sitting on as I type, is subducting under the North American plate and is rich with submarine fossil fuels, as evidenced by the number of oil platforms I can see in the water in the distance on the clearest of days. I don't know enough about paleo-biology/geology to know whether these deposits were produced as a result of marine or terrestrial processes.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, I still disagree with the statement, unless you refer to the breakdown of some organics to form other organics as being "generation" of organics. Maybe I am just picking at your word choice, but also at the idea that it is fundamentally different than aerobic breakdown, which also produces other organics (like ethanol or vinegar) if you allow the reaction to only proceed part way.

Anaerobic processing of organics leads to the same carbon products, mostly CO2.

This is the degradation reaction using nitrate as the electron acceptor instead of O2:

organic + 124 NO3- + 124 H+ → 122 CO2 + 70 N2 + 208 H2O

and this is the overall reaction using sulfate:

(CH2O)106(NH3)16(H3PO4) + 53 SO4-- → 56 CO2 + 50 HCO3- + 53 HS- + 16 NH3 + 53 H2O + PO4---

Methane can form as a partial degradation product of existing organics. The reactions above are the reactions carried to completion.

[badonkadonk]

Yes, I was referring to decomposition of organics, and the differences in pathways. I spent a number of years feasibility/pilot testing various industrial waste stream treatment approaches, with a bioreactor focus, and something you don't want to do is set up an anaerobic process which can easily be upset by O2 slugs. The system fails, often unelegantly, while the facultatives turn on their machinery. And the same thing happens in reverse in aerobic reactors. Bad times. Perhaps there is something similar taking place when biopellets clump. The transition to the anoxic state releases banked nutrients and possibly polymer breakdown intermediaries, based on what others have reported in their tanks (and NOVs industrially).

[jnjsad]

I started using biopellets 2 weeks ago. Prior to that I was using GFO. I am now starting to see bubble algae as well as cyano. I initially used the recomended half dosage to start. Should I back that down to 1/4 of Dr. Tims Biopellets in an effort to curb this?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Bubble algae (valonia) can do well even at pretty low nutrient levels, so nutrients may not be the best way to deal with it. You might need manual or biological removal (like emerald crabs).

Cyano can be a problem, but phosphate reduction is often a good way and GFO is one of the best ways to accomplish that. :)

[psteeleb]

I started bio pellets a couple months ago when my No3 rose to around 50. I never had No3 issues untill I started to feed more for several NPS including some gorgonia.

I started slow and even though the No3 reduced I had more negative results then I cared for. I lost xenia, coralmorphs and saw SPS damage (maybe high alk / low nutrient related). I decided to cut back on the flow through the bio pellet reactor but needed to maintain the high tumble flow so made a simple recirc addition to my TLF reactor as shown here

http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/download/file.php?id=61541

Since reducing the flow through the reactor to a slow stream my No3 has been stable around 2-5ppm but my SPS still seem to be somewhat challenged (not all of them, just a few). I suspect the SPS were use to growing in a high nutrient environment that no longer exists and or its a side effect of the bio pellets themself.

Although I'm trying to give the bio pellets a chance I am seriously thinking of taking other routes to deal with elevated No3.

[Andylam]

So..... Cutting long story in short - apparently the major problem on BP is the Cyano growth. And solutions may be GFO, reducing PO4, coral snow+bak....

What about reducing the amount of BP and increasing the flow via the BP reactor? Any other thoughts?

PS I am suffering from Cyano as well with BP.... Planning to suck out the top layer of sand while water changing...

[badonkadonk]

I'm running about 1.2 liters of BRS biopellets with bare bottom, though I do have a 60 gallon tank that serves as a refugium and home to a blue star leopard wrasse (that I got when I used to have a deep sand bed). I put a 10" square plastic container with a few inches of sand in the refugium for a place for the leopard wrasse to tuck in for the night. That little sand bed is about the only place I get cyano (sometimes a little on the grape caulerpa). Seems that sand beds and biopellets could be an issue, maybe. Is your biopellet reactor effluent feeding into your skimmer (seems that is a much preferred configuration)? Using GFO with biopellets seems to be fighting water with fire. I would look at using macroalgae before GFO (mine started growing again after I took the GFO offline, before going to biopellets, and still grows with the biopellets (though mostly Halimeda)), but that's just a personal preference.

[sotomx]

My personal experience with BP, my tank is a 70 gallon and I installed a TLF with TL BP also, everything went smooth for the first 3 months and then I increased the amount of BP to the recommended amount by he manufacturer. I assume this addition made something in the biological balance and I´m having a huge Cyano outbreak. Yesterday I came back to the amount of BP and will see what happens.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Using GFO with biopellets seems to be fighting water with fire. I would look at using macroalgae before GFO (mine started growing again after I took the GFO offline, before going to biopellets, and still grows with the biopellets (though mostly Halimeda)), but that's just a personal preference.

I disagree. All organic carbon dosing, including pellets, has the potential for substantially more N reduction than P, for well understood reasons.

So then what is left is phosphate, and GFO mops that up.

Trying to use a balanced N and P export method, such as macroalgae, seems a poor choice to me if N drops low and P remains substantial. :)

[MavG]

dose nitrogen in the form of seachem flourish nitrogen or ammonium chloride, or similar to increase nitrate levels.

organic carbon driven systems often result in nitrate limitation, and therefore you have to add nitrate back to the system in order to facilitate increased uptake of phosphate.

Cyano is usually occuring because organic carbon driven systems are usually very aggressive at removing nitrate and phosphate, and at the substrate water interface, phosphate will tend to leach from the substrate, even in small amounts. That, coupled with the fact that cyano is a bacteria, and your adding organic carbon, means that you might just get a bloom.

But once your system in nutrient stable, and the cyano is removed manually, organic carbon dosing along with nitrate/ammonium chloride doseing to address nitrate limitation, usually results in a very clean system and the cyano doesnt usually return, if your vigilent, which lets face it, you need to be if you want to achieve good results.

thats my experience anyway.

[doctorgori]

I disagree. All organic carbon dosing, including pellets, has the potential for substantially more N reduction than P, for well understood reasons.

So then what is left is phosphate, and GFO mops that up.

Trying to use a balanced N and P export method, such as macroalgae, seems a poor choice to me if N drops low and P remains substantial. :)


yeah I was sorta thinking that also (but would have said it in a less edjumucated way)

.... besides I haven't been able to grow any macro algae at all (other than halmedia) ...well at least not when using the combination of BP & GFO ... as a thought experiment I would think that if you theoretically could, then something in that dynamic wouldn't be working, no?

[Cam]

Hi,

Ok, I having a lot of problems with the tank at the moment and think its possibly releated to the use of pellets or more specifically since reducing and stopping bio pellets, and would like to run the issues past you all to get a possible direction.

Tank is about 140 UK gallons and contains live rock plate mainly with a few other pieces of rock. Livestock is probably slightly on the heavy side with a yellow tang, flame angel, regal angel, copperband butterfly, two large-ish maroon clowns, three anthias, seven small black bar chromic and a sand sifting goby. Corals are predominantly SPS and LPS with a couple of clams and a few assorted zoas and ricordias along with a leather coral. Filtration is via a shallow sand bed of 1-2mm grain sand varying in depth from half to about two inches, there's some cheato in the sump and the skimmer is a good D-D ap850 needle wheel skimmer. Also at the moment there is a reactor containing about half a litre of carbon and another reactor with about 300ml of Rowaphos phosphate remover. Water movement is high with an Ocean Runner 3500 return pump, a Tunze 6055 stream and a Vortech MP40 ES.

Tank has been running well for over a year using bio pellets in a large reactor. The recommended dose for my system is about 1 litre but I have never run more than about a third to half of that. The main issue I had during this time was poor coral growth and some paling of the SPS. However over the past couple of months I have been reducing the amount of pellets to almost zero. This seemed fine and the resulting increase in nutrient improved coral colours and growth but as the level of pellets reduced cyno started to take hold. I have never been able to measure nitrate in this tank and phosphate has also been pretty much unreadable. Nitrate is tested with a new Salifert kit and as of yesterday I could get no discernible reading, phosphate is tested with a D-D (Merck) high sensitivity kit. I attributed the cyno to the rise in nutrient due to the reduction of the pellets but at the same time a started to suffer with STN on the base of some SPS. I added some GFO (Rowaphos) and carbon and dipped a couple of the affected corals in Coral RX which seemed to halt the STN. The nutrients are still reading very low but now the cyno has really taken a hold BIG time, probably the worst I have ever seen in any tank I have run, almost every surface of the rock and sand is covered with it. I am at a loss to explain why the outbreak is so bad. I am adding very little to the tan, just the occasional dose of aminos. RO water is ok, the TDS of the unit shows around 3 but the water is polished by DI resin so is then zero.

So far to try and get a handle on this I have used the GFO and carbon as mentioned above and also started dosing Fauna Marin Bak which may not be such a good idea? The issue I am struggling with after reading the problems that seem common with the use of pellets are why is the cyno so bad and where did it come from, is this a nutrient problem or something more caused be the pellets.

I am considering a number of routes to try and improve the situation. These are to dose with a new bacteria culture to increase the level of competing strains and keep up the dosing of the Bak or vinegar or to reintroduce the pellets to the tank in the hope that they will pull any nutrient level down again. As mentioned previously the measurements of nitrate and phosphate are all very low (too low!) so I can't really see how going back to the pellets will help. However I had no cyno at all while using the pellets but I am concerned about the excessively low nutrient conditions these pellets can bring to a tank. As stated above, since cutting back on the pellets the corals have never looked better although the STN was a big worry.

I’ve done some reading on this and other threads which seems to back up the theory that the pellets are somehow causing this problem by depositing material back into the system or by causing ultra low nutrients but I don't see why it has taken more than a year for the problem to present itself and also why the cyno has take off to the massive extent that it has.

I would appreciate help in getting a handle on this problem. It seems the more I research this, the more conflicting information there is out there!

Many thanks,

Cam.

[burnah]

as stated before, you could try running your pelletreactor output into your skimmer if you fear bad stuff being released.
from what i remember reading in other threads, you might be limited in N, so the P will not be used up as quick by the bacteria and the cyano might be able to use that, algae might not as it would need N too. as it uses it up, you might not be able to detect it, so using more/change more frequent of the GFO/rowaphos might be an idea.

[Cam]

Hi,

Thanks for the input. The output from my reactor has always been directed into the skimmer. Perhaps the GFO would benefit from a change but its only been in there less than a week and as far as I could tell the phosphate was very low in the first place. I had it checked a couple of weeks ago on my friends Hanna phosphorus meter and wit read between 6 and 14 over two tests which is very low.

Cam.

[burnah]

as i said, the cyano might take it up as fast as it is produced (you said youve got quite alot of it in your tank -> high uptake volume), you might be unable to measure it. just my idea on it..

[Guttungen]

My theory is that the condition for bacterias in the PB is so good that they out concur bacterias in your LR. When stopping your BP, after 1 year, you got almost no bacterias left in your system, and cyano got the best conditions at the moment. Consuming N/P on the spot leaving close to nothing to be measured.

[Cam]

Thanks, I would suspect you are probably right. What would be your suggestion to put things right? Perhaps reseeding the tank with some new bacteria and continuing with the Bak and perhaps moving on to vinegar? I will also do a change of GFO.

CAM.

[Guttungen]

Not an expert at all, just picking up a little here and there.... Running BP myself prox 50% of recomended. But if I'm correct, you need something to compete with when cyano. And I think bacteria is good idea. Maybe running BP in a small dose? If your light source is getting old that might benefit the cyano aswell. I had a small amount of cyano and got rid of it with new t5 bulbs and ZeoBak. I know it's popular in here in Norway to also use coral-snow against cyano. But never tried myself.

[burnah]

i use microbe-lift special blend which is also supposed to be a bacterial additive to compete against cyanos. greetings

[Cam]

I think I'll stop adding the Bak as this may be fueling the cyno and as there is no No3 then it seems pointless to try and increase the bacteria at this time until I had new ones to add..

Cam.

[DBSAM]

Cam,
For my cyano, dino issues I have had terrific success with Zeo's coral snow mixed with their ZeoBak and let stand for 10 minutes before adding tithe tank. Hydrogen peroxide has worked marvelously for clearing bacteria from the water column. Lastly, Zeozym and BioMate mixed and fermented for 10min also seemed to help.
My tanked tested zero on nitrate and phosphates while the outbreak happenned.
The bacteria consumed one cup of pellets in 6 weeks. I was experimenting with things and something kicked the bacteria into full gear and it was amazing to witness...IMO, the pellets worked but they can be uncontrollable.

Pm me if you wish to discuss details.

[Mark1968]

Ok. This is my experience with bio-pellets. Phosphates are at 0 and nitrates are at 20-30. I'm told that the bacteria needs phosphates and nitrates to have a good time and live. However, how do I control what the bacteria eats faster then the other. Now I'm being told to add phosphate to the tank to balance the mood, but to be careful. Eliminated GFO was great. However, if you are looking for a cure all? I have not experienced it yet. Any thoughts?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok. This is my experience with bio-pellets. Phosphates are at 0 and nitrates are at 20-30. I'm told that the bacteria needs phosphates and nitrates to have a good time and live. However, how do I control what the bacteria eats faster then the other. Now I'm being told to add phosphate to the tank to balance the mood, but to be careful. Eliminated GFO was great. However, if you are looking for a cure all? I have not experienced it yet. Any thoughts?


<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

It is possible that if you drive phosphate down too low with GFO, you may have problems with any balanced nutrient export method (like macroalgae, ATS, deep sand, live rock, and bacterial growth from organic carbon dosing).

I expect the issue will disappear over time when not using GFO, and I personally wouldn't add phosphate since it is much more likely to be a problem than is nitrate. All organic carbon dosing methods are overbalanced to remove a lot more nitrate than phosphate, so I'd just let it do its thing (or switch to soluble organics like vinegar) rather than dosing phosphate.

That said, adding some is a fine experiment. :)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd also say that depending on how you use the pellets, you may be more limited to aerobic nitrate reduction than hypoxic reduction, with the latter using a lot more nitrate than the former per unit of phosphate consumed. In other words, the issue is whether a thick enough film is allowed to build up on the pellets to become O2 limited at the pellet surface, or if it is thin enough that all the bacterial growth is aerobic. We don't really know much about the nature of these films on pellets, but how you tumble them and exactly what they are made of, etc may impact these issues.

Soluble organic dosing allows the added organic to penetrate into low O2 regions of rock and sand, and may be more effective at nitrate reduction than are pellets.

So IMO, adding a bit of vinegar or vodka may also be a way to push down nitrate when phosphate seem to possibly be limiting. :)

[Englishmatt]

Like I said, I'm new to this....and that may be a good thing since I'm not set in my ways and looking to learn alot.

I am considering a BP reactor for my new system. It's not even got water, but I want to provide the best possible environment so a REEF DYNAMICS reactor may be a nice addition.

The reason I say REEF DYNAMICS is that you can adjust the flow from ZERO to alot....quickly.

As I've read all the 152 posts, there seems to be a couple of common factors:

1.) Bad BP experience, but openly claim they didn't read the instructions
2.) Bad BP experience, but then resolved (fully or partially) the issues with using a reduced amount of pellets.
2a.) Seems like too many BPs were used and the reactor stripped all nutrients out of the system....causing issues.
3.) Bad BP experience, but the effluent from the BP reactor was NOT routed directly into the skimmer output.

There is NO DOUBT that the effluent from the BP reactor is very, very high in nutrients that algae loves. If that's not skimmed out, then you are looking for trouble.

It appears REEF DYNAMICS reactor design can be adjusted to minmize or maximize both the tumble flow and the effluent flow. This new design (or new for 2012) seems to resolve the root causes of the bad BP experiences.
If you can basically slow the effluent down to a drip...then that would limit the effluent capacity into your skimmer. If you need the flow to be wide open...then go for it.

A good question for those with BAD BP experiences would be...what reactor did you use? It could simply be an issue with bad design of equipment vs. simply bad to use BPs???

Again, being very new to this reef hobby...sometimes a fresh set of eyes and ears may uncover a few basics that have been overlooked or assumed...

Just my .2c

Cheers,

Matt,

[burnah]

my issues have vanished, they could have been caused by the tanks move too. i now simply dump them in a netbag in my skimmer chamber. still waiting for my custom pellets reactor.

[badonkadonk]

After having used biopellets for about 7 months, I experienced the overstripping of nutrients phenomenon recently. Lost a colony (Hawkins Blue Echinata) and 6 to 10 smaller frags/mini-colonies (4 may recover). Most were SPS, though I also lost a large colony of cyphastrea Meteor Shower, and even a fungia plate lost a lot of color, as well as a medium rock covered with porites. At first I thought it was the oft-reported alkalinity sensitivity of sps tips (went white), but then it spread to the rest of the coral. When it started a couple months ago, I removed about 3/4ths of my BRS biopellets. Then, with continuing degradation of my corals, I took out all but about 50 grams of the pellets. A week or two later I removed all pellets. Still no improvement. Finally did a 1/2 water change, and changed the carbon while about doubling the amount I normally used. Also have been dosing amino acids - and I have a fairly heavy bioload so nutrients are making it into the system. The colors are just starting to come back, and the polyps are again fully extended on most.

I was thrilled with the early results using the pellets, algae disappeared, didn't have to clean the glass but once a week (and only then to keep the corraline algae from taking over). Almost no green algae whatsoever, except for the Halimeda which took over my refugium over caulerpa and chaeto (which stopped growing and became a detritus trap, so I tossed it). Everything looked sparkling clean - but then my corals started fading some, slow to no growth, then the white tips.

Probably should have reacted faster, but didn't want to shock the system by just removing the pellets all at once.

Some general observations:
At first, the pellets seemed to harbor a biofilm (at least when they would clump and I'd have to break them apart a slime layer seemed to dislodge). But after a few months, it seemed there was no biofilm/slime layer on the pellets. I think what was happening was the pellets continued to dissolve (biofilm or not), and add dissolved organic carbon to the system (as a breakdown product - whether it's the monomer or some other breakdown product from the pellets I don't know - but would like to - perhaps I'll let some pellets sit in some clean fresh saltwater and do a quick extraction and inject onto a GC-MS and see what shows up). Anyway, it may be that the residual dissolved carbon in the system serves as a carbon source for bacterial growth to continue stripping nutrients (N and P) out of the system. At least that's my hunch. The activated carbon I always run may have become prematurely loaded with whatever organic comes off of the pellets, and adding fresh activated carbon may have scavanged what was dissolved in the water, finally improving matters. Again, just a hunch.

The lack of green algae made the display tank look nice and crisp. Didn't have a cyano problem either. But apparently that's not a good thing - probably need to adjust the amount of pellets, or the flow (recirculating?) to achieve some steady state low nutrient condition. But in the long-run, that may be elusive, and now I'm a bit leery of biopellets.

The corals that normally like a bit of "dirty" water didn't seem phased. My mushroom problem is still a problem. The LPS and soft corals didn't miss a beat either (the fungia excepted). Zooanthids never looked better. So can't reconcile that with the nutrient over-stripping idea.

Perhaps I had too many pellets - I was using the full bag - 1 liter on a total system volume of about 220-240 gallons. But for now I'm going biopellet-free, but may go back to a very small amount, or may just go back to vinegar which seemed to be the most trouble-free carbon source for me so far (I had problems with vodka - dosing that is).

[tmz]

I've never used the pellets. They might be fine but I'm concerned about the monomers and the difficulty in controlling the actuaal dose via reactors.
I've dosed soluble organics( vodka and vinegar ) for 3.5 years without the issues noted with pellets.

[stevedola]

i ran them on a 90g to help with a severe HA problem. They worked great to beat the HA problem within 3 mths but then at about the 6mth mark started causing coral problems...tried to replace part of the pelets but didnt help. I think it was striping the water column from something essential for coral health. I discontinued use and the corals rebounded in a few weeks. I was happy at the HA being gone however the BPs killed a hammer coral, elegance, some zoas and other shrooms. So they helped and hurt.

[Bugger]

I took my pellets offline a few months ago and left them in a bucket full of water. I recently had elevated nitrates so I made the choice to use them again. After inspecting the bucket I noticed the wated inside the bucket had turned yellow. It seems the pellets deteriate. I rinsed them and used them everything seems somewhat fine. I dont understand do we really beleive these pellets are toxic and can kill corals.

[tmz]

I don't think they are toxic. They are polymers( carbohydrates).They breakdown from bacterial activity to monomers( mostly sugars).Sugar,particulary glucose sometimes causes issues for corals. Rapid nutreint cahages and excess organics can be issues too.

[overklok]

"Since reducing the flow through the reactor to a slow stream my No3 has been stable around 2-5ppm but my SPS still seem to be somewhat challenged (not all of them, just a few). I suspect the SPS were use to growing in a high nutrient environment that no longer exists and or its a side effect of the bio pellets themselves". I think this is an issue that many people discount. It seems once corals get used to a high nutrient environment, many of them have a very difficult time adjusting to a ULN environment, wither away and die.

[Crab Rangoon]

Anyone ever had this particular problem with their biopellets . . . ?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7260/7412182088_1d67c0425f_c.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8158/7412181678_8aefcaeb07_c.jpg

I've been using BP's for about two years, and my current brand of pellets + model of reactor for 12 or more months.
I've just never seen this before, don't understand what started it, or how to get rid of it (beyond physical removal).
It appears to be something much different from the average white bacterial growth that is common to find on the pellets / in the reactor. The colors in the photo are accurate, the affected pellets appear the be encased in a grey "sack" of sorts, and the sack seems to have white growth here & there on the outside.

Sorry for the poor photos, but we begin moving this weekend and the camera is packed up. I'd love to solve the BP problem before I set the reactor up again on the new tank.

[S2minute]

Hi Folks. It's been awhile but here's an update. I added another 1/2 cup of Vertex. This went well. I produced more skimmate Now i'm not sure when this happened or if it was a gradual thing but, the Brown cayno that i did have, is no more and it's never come back.. However, i also bought a Hanna Ultra Low Phosphorus checker. I was not happy. SO, i added HALF the recomended amount of ROWA Phos to a phosban reactor. That helped except the GHA i did have due to me slacking off on my husbandry was going away but slowly. Rather to slowly than i would have liked. This was due to that old MH fixture i was still using until i finnished building my new fixture. This fixture @ 6' was an energy HOG with 3-250 MH, 4- 96w PC and 2- 110 VHOs. One ballast died so down to two MH bulbs and one PC bulb went plus the MH bulbs were in desprate need of replacement.
I refused to do the maint. on the fixture because my new DIY LED fixture was nearly ready. This was a MAJOR factor in the GHA problem. Now the 100% LED fixture is complete and when it was turned on. The difference in light and the effect it had on EVERYTHING was stunning. Within 3-4 days the GHA was nearly all dead. It's been 2 weeks now and the GHA is reduced to 2 small patches on the BB and it's dull brown and dissapearing.
The DT is looking awesome. GHA all but gone, no trace of brown cayno. I had Red cayno too. The LEDS made it go away in a matter of days. I have these type of duster worm in my sump, hundreds of them actually. Real skinny and fragle soft tubes. I'm thinking the Bac using the Vertex has found an equalliberum in the water column because those duster worms, sponges and even the coral polops seem to be doing well. I no longer use a filter sock. I syphon the sump each week.
Just one more thing. I know this is a bit off topic but, if your looking for a cleanup crew for your DT. Try www.reefcleaners.com . The Dwarf Ceriths kick A** and the Fuzzy Chitons are wicked cool. They remind me of those new vacume cleaner robots you see on TV lol.
One last thing, i sat back for a while and tryed to think of a way to use the Vertex so i woulden't have to use a pump or have it not fully tumble in your standard reactors we pay out the A** for. As my DIY mind went to work on the problem...i found an answer. I'm currently in the "test" phase. :thumbsup:

[uglyfish]

I switched from zeostart3 carbon dosing to biopellets. On zeostart3, po4 and no3 were 0. When I switched to pellets, my po4 rose. I suspected limited no3. I tested zeostart3 for nitrate and found it does contain nitrate, 500+ppm (not sure exactly) - probably to balance the 16:1 no3 to po4 consumption ratio.

[KCombs]

Anyone ever had this particular problem with their biopellets . . . ?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7260/7412182088_1d67c0425f_c.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8158/7412181678_8aefcaeb07_c.jpg

I've been using BP's for about two years, and my current brand of pellets + model of reactor for 12 or more months.
I've just never seen this before, don't understand what started it, or how to get rid of it (beyond physical removal).
It appears to be something much different from the average white bacterial growth that is common to find on the pellets / in the reactor. The colors in the photo are accurate, the affected pellets appear the be encased in a grey "sack" of sorts, and the sack seems to have white growth here & there on the outside.

Sorry for the poor photos, but we begin moving this weekend and the camera is packed up. I'd love to solve the BP problem before I set the reactor up again on the new tank.

Yes .....
I simply dumped them in a bucket and swished them around...the film/fungus /or whatever it is hasn't been back ...
might try removing a few pellets ?

.

[KCombs]

oh one more thing...I'm misunderstanding the "nutrient striping" thing..
can't you or shouldn't you just feed more/more often?

[CarlosS]

Hi Guys:

I have read all your messages and I think to remove my BP. Currently I have a refugium growing some caulerpa species and chaetomorpha. They are growing well so far.

Right now I have some ciano and I would prefer to go with old methos like GFO, that is confirmed to control phosphates. Also have some SPS bleaching, that never had when using GFO.

My question are:

.- Could I remove the biopelles entirely in one time? Or do I have to remove them in stages? I mean 25% weekly for example.

.- When should I do to add GFO again?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[schriss]

oh one more thing...I'm misunderstanding the "nutrient striping" thing..
can't you or shouldn't you just feed more/more often?

I think its crucial to increase feeding when using bio pellets. When people complain their corals starve, it's because bio pellets are so powerful in what they are supposed to be doing. One way to control them is to have recirculating reactor where you can dial down the out flow, so the reactor is processing less water in given time, so removing less nutrients.
But as usual, when increasing feeding do it slowly and observe corals reaction.

Ironically, I'm at a point when I wonder how to safely get rid on zoas and mushrooms, they just grow too quickly.

[happyjack]

Im running a huge SRO300SS in a 400 gallon fowler with large triggers and other aggresive fish I had bad hair algee but now just a slight film of cyano .I feed heavy and have zero nitrates and almost zero phosphate.Since I'm not feeding corals I swear by the reactor.

[Psionicdragon]

has anyone have their biopellets just completely stop working even when there are nitrates and phosphates?

[schriss]

No. Maybe try dosing some Microbacter7?

Sent from my PadFone 2

[schriss]

Unless it's the pellets, maybe some cheap brand and no more carbon in them?

Sent from my PadFone 2

[Psionicdragon]

I am using TLF brand and they were working for months, but all of a sudden it stopped...so not sure what the deal is.

[badonkadonk]

I am using TLF brand and they were working for months, but all of a sudden it stopped...so not sure what the deal is.

By "stopped" do you mean you are seeing algae? For me it was just the opposite - too much nutrient removal (I think I overloaded the system, too much biopellets and had absolutely no algae, but the corals went downhill). I've been doing vinegar dosing with a cheap peristaltic pump now for the past 8 mos. and things are good again - a little algae here and there (clean the glass every 4 or 5 days to remove a very slight dusting of algae, viewable from the side on the front glass) and coral growth/appearance is where I want it. With vinegar or other liquid dosing you know exactly how much carbon you are adding to the system. With biopellets it seems more variable - suppose some people can get it dialed in, but you have to be very patient and not think more is better. It takes a while for the system to respond and reach steady state, and even then the biopellets might start to break down faster for various reasons, and put more carbon into the water column.

[burnah]

i stopped using my biopellets, which were hanging in a filter sock in the sump after getting green cyano, on spots with little current and it got more and more.

after taking out the pellets, waterchange with siphoning cyano and switching to vodka i see a decrease in cyano growth.

it covered the top layer of my sandbed in the fuge, and clumped it. it grows on sand, rocks and glass. it leaves detritus under its deadly coverage. i stay with vodka, easier to control (3channel dosing pump, vodka with the magnesium), and vodka does not produce cyano for me.

i suspect the cyano living off the buildup of some byproduct of the consumation of the pellets. also my water got significantly clearer now that i switched to vodka. i cannot say if using a reactor would have changed this.for me, adding vodka to a tank is simply necessary, like two part and magnesium. even if i dont do it to the maximum, where its balanced with N and P, i want to dose just a little to help remove nutrients together with my skimmer and macroalgae.


greetings, martin

[Psionicdragon]

By "stopped" do you mean you are seeing algae? For me it was just the opposite - too much nutrient removal (I think I overloaded the system, too much biopellets and had absolutely no algae, but the corals went downhill). I've been doing vinegar dosing with a cheap peristaltic pump now for the past 8 mos. and things are good again - a little algae here and there (clean the glass every 4 or 5 days to remove a very slight dusting of algae, viewable from the side on the front glass) and coral growth/appearance is where I want it. With vinegar or other liquid dosing you know exactly how much carbon you are adding to the system. With biopellets it seems more variable - suppose some people can get it dialed in, but you have to be very patient and not think more is better. It takes a while for the system to respond and reach steady state, and even then the biopellets might start to break down faster for various reasons, and put more carbon into the water column.

Stopped as in nitrate and phosphate is coming back up or staying leveled kind of. I also did vsv and didn't seem to make a dent. Someone told me that I was using too much so I reduced it by half and nothing has changed. So..not sure what is wrong iwth the tank/system? I even dose live bacteria from TLF and IO...nada. Corals aren't browning out, but PE has been affected.

[Supapee]

Greetings from the UK!!

I've got a 300l system which has been running for almost a year now, and I've run Vertex bio-pellets in a Vertex reactor from the start. Salt was initially TMPR.

Initially there was no live rock, just Riffsystem ceramic rock and some live sand. Had the usual diatom/cyno outbreak just after cycling, and then just a hairy green coating on the ceramics. No corraline growth...

My PO4 and NO3 readings have been consistently low (0.008 and 1ish) with Elos test kits although the green hair algae has managed to keep a foothold.

I lost a few SPS colonies and tank raised frags to RTN, despite all of the tests coming back in the usual areas, and salinity/KH/Ca/Mg & temperature all being stable. Perhaps completely coincidentally, I changed salt to Bio Activ during this time.

A thread on UR mentioned K depletion, and when I tested, it came back at 290ppm, so dosed to bring it back up. I also added a couple of kg of live rock.

I also modded my Vertex to follow the recirculating method. PO3 and NO4 test results were unchanged.....

I put another 3 SPS colonies in just over 2 weeks ago, and one (Montipora Digitata) began to fade after just a couple of days. I've since upped the frequency of the water changes after I noticed that it's colour improved after a 10% water change (back to TMPT by the way) so I'm wondering if I have either depleted levels of something that the SPS needs, or there's something being leached into the water column that I dilute below the threshold that affects the Monti...

I have a couple of small areas of what I believe is cyno - on the sand bed, but not in an area of low flow.

I'll continue with the water changes and report back in a few days.

Great forum by the way!!!!


Karl

[badonkadonk]

Stopped as in nitrate and phosphate is coming back up or staying leveled kind of. I also did vsv and didn't seem to make a dent. Someone told me that I was using too much so I reduced it by half and nothing has changed. So..not sure what is wrong iwth the tank/system? I even dose live bacteria from TLF and IO...nada. Corals aren't browning out, but PE has been affected.

I have heard of cases where people run GFO with biopellets and the trates rise since the GFO is adsorbing the phosphate, leaving too little phosphate for the bacteria to consume with the nitrates, so nitrates rise since they aren't incorporated into biomass. But it is odd that your phosphate is rising too. Do you have algae growth?. I had problems with my pellets taking out too much, not even bryopsis would grow (which would be great, except my corals went downhill fast due to lack of nutrients or shock). I ended up doing big water changes, like 50% a few times after taking the pellets off line. Then just went with vinegar dosing, now things are fine. You might want to do water changes, that fixes lots of things, and reduce your pellets to a tenth of where you were (I'd vote for eliminating them altogether after my experience). Also, like everything else, it takes a while for biopellets or other forms of dosing to reach an equilibrium state - have to go slow.

[Psionicdragon]

I have heard of cases where people run GFO with biopellets and the trates rise since the GFO is adsorbing the phosphate, leaving too little phosphate for the bacteria to consume with the nitrates, so nitrates rise since they aren't incorporated into biomass. But it is odd that your phosphate is rising too. Do you have algae growth?. I had problems with my pellets taking out too much, not even bryopsis would grow (which would be great, except my corals went downhill fast due to lack of nutrients or shock). I ended up doing big water changes, like 50% a few times after taking the pellets off line. Then just went with vinegar dosing, now things are fine. You might want to do water changes, that fixes lots of things, and reduce your pellets to a tenth of where you were (I'd vote for eliminating them altogether after my experience). Also, like everything else, it takes a while for biopellets or other forms of dosing to reach an equilibrium state - have to go slow.

Ya i have a lot of algae growth and since the pellets stopped working, my tank has been going downhill. A bunch of my SPS colonies RTN/STN :(.

[Psionicdragon]

Nitrate based off of API is around 10-20ppm
While Phosphate based on Milwaukee is around .05-.07 +/- error rate.

[badonkadonk]

I'd do some heavy water changes. Do you have a sand bed? if so you might want to remove it. Sounds like there is a nutrient sink somewhere. Save some of the old water you change out and swish your live rock around in it, you might have detritus piled up in it, or under the rock.

[Chicago]

my reactor has been working good for about 5 months.. recently though lost some frags.. I noticed at same time phosphate reading 0.00 which I never have had.. some corals look a little faded.. others look great..

issue I have is the coralline algea is not going great and I have this coating growing on my rocks.. not cyno but almost like a detritus covering..its hard to describe.. it easly brushes off.. I think some type of bacterial growth..

adding more current and slowing the out flow of the reactor down..

[BryanW]

I started using bio pellets on day 1 of my 500gal setup. The results from day 1 thru about 1.5 years were very good. Zero algae,good coral growth, everything was working great. With the increase in coral growth, I upgraded my calc reactor and this posed a problem with constant calc carbonate choking the flow of water through feed pump, and inside the reactor itself. Calc Carb buildup was a constant monthly battle. Then the algae issues started to pop up...red, green, hair etc. Ran heavy GFO changing out weekly, water changes, etc. Took bio's off a couple months ago and also put a algae scrubber in place and now just starting to win the algae battle again and all of a sudden I'm seeing coral growth that I've never seen before. Pretty amazing to say the least. Still early to see how this setup will work, but very happy with progress. I'm no rocket scientist so can't say if pellets were a cause or not in my tanks demise, but I'm certainly happy with the turn around at this time.

[S2minute]

I started using Bio-pellets again in my 400+ gal system. I use a modified 2 little fishes Phos ban reactor and it's T-ed off the main pump line. It's outlet is placed in the DT but, here's what i did different. Originally, i used just an 1/8 of what was required. This time i used even less. Just a small fistful. Maybe less than an ounce. Within 2 days i noticed all my corals reacting positively. Esp. the Acans. They greatly expanded. The water stayed clear, Pellets keep tumbling and the skimmate is greater and thicker. It's been this way for i'd say 2-3 months now. I really should keep written records :(. Anyway, the only thing i run other than that it ROX 0.8 like 1-2 days before a water change and if the PO4 rises above .03 i use LC to knock it down. The directions for use for the BP IMHO calls for way to large an amount to use.

[jsdancer]

I am using the recommended dose of Two Little Fishies NPX Bioplastics in my nano. I can see a BIG difference.

Now, i have to scrub my glasses 1 or 2 times a week and the hairy algaes do not grow anymore.

All my livestock doing well : LPS, softies, nps, zoan/paly and anemones.

I'm dosing Element trace, amino acid and phytoplankton 2 times a week.

I'm feeding my corals 2 to 4 times a week with coral frenzy, dried phyto, homemade food and pellets.
Hey there just wondering how things are going with your tank and usage of the NPX Bioplastics. I have finally added the required amount to my setup over several weeks. While I have noticed a drop in phosphates I have only not seen an incredible decline in nitrates after 7 weeks of use. How quickly or how long did it take you?

[SuperChimps]

I know its a few years old, but I came across this thread because I'm about to start experimenting with bio-pellets in an attempt to keep my nitrates/phosphates down.

Quick question about the actual use of bio-pellets - I have bought a product from a company called Marine Sources, and their instructions say use 50mL of beads per 200 L of water, per week - for the first month. If I had a 200 L tank say, do you think they mean add 50 mL worth of beads, and then take them out and swap for a second 50 mL the next week and so on... or do they mean add 50 mL one week, another 50 mL the next week (for a total of 100, then 150 the next week etc..). Its probably a dumb question, but I don't want to stuff my tank up

I've looked at their web-site, but large parts are in Chinese, and the only point of contact is a sales email - which i'll try anyway.

The product also says an anaerobic layer will form on the beads and provide additional de-notification. So won't there always be the capacity for some H2S to form in this situation even under 'normal operating conditions'? And if that's the case, do you think periods of inactivity are going to cause big problems in this regard? I ask because I was thinking of having the reactor on a timer to save noise/power bills.. operating 12 hours a day instead of 24

[tmz]

I have no idea what they mean or what the product you have is made of. Typically, the beads/pellets in bio pellets are solid polymer plastic all of which is bio degradeable; and doesn't require removal steps.

The bacteria that feed on the polymer plastic: use free oxygen ,; when it's exhausted they go to nitrate for oxygen ; when NO3 exhaused, sulfate reducing bacteria take over and they produce H2S( hyrdogen sulfide) as a bi product. Contiuous flow is important;stagnant water will likely become anoxic.

[Osama]

Following ...

[yacn]

My nitrates are 160+....150 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump. 10 year old tank with 120 lbs. live rock and maybe 2 inches substrate. Maybe old tank syndrome and bad husbandry led to high nitrates. I've done 3 large water changes the past 2 months and cleaned rocks and substrate thoroughly.

Started vodka dosing about month and half ago....haven't seen a change in nitrates yet, but everything I read tells me it can take 3 to 4 months. I decided I wouldn't be able to dose vodka every day due to vacations and business trips so I added BP with TLF 150 reactor about a week ago. I used 100ml of BP (about 2 cups), which is recommended dose for 100 gallons....probably a bit more than I should have started off with.

2 days ago my DT tank got a bit cloudy and yesterday so cloudy white you could barely see the back of the tank. My reef octopus 2000 skimmer was over flowing with whitish foam. I hooked up a second skimmer (euro reef 100), and have the output of the BP reactor right in front of the intake of this skimmer...my mushrooms, zoos and leathers are not looking so good.....fish seem okay but not great.

I was going to pull some of the BP out of the reactor when I get home from work today. I haven't vodka dosed in 2 days either since noticing the water getting cloudy. BP's are moving around nicely with water flow in reactor....I have maybe 10 pieces clumping at top of chamber. I think my tank gets more cloudy when the lights come on, and have brown growth on substrate in DT...but the brown growth isn't like a thick carpet or slime coating....instead it is on the individual pieces of substrate. That was happening before the BP were added....I think vodka made this occur...not it's just a bit worse.

worried I'm going to lose things or crash my tank....thinking I should let it go for another day or so like everyone is mentioning it will go away.

[Osama]

Am by no means an expert but I will start by saying that cloudiness is possibly from the excess bacteria generated by the BP that the skimmer is not taking enough of it out in a timely manner. Check your nitrates and PO4 before dosing anymore vodka... Add aeration to the tank (check ORP or O2 if U can) excess bacteria needs oxygen ... I put two air-stones on top of my MP60s pump to increase oxygenation. I tried BP but stopped it as my reactor needs a stronger pump. MAY reactivate. Pls take my commenst with a grain of salt as am old timer in the hobby but naive about BP, GFO etc. AM used to all natural system.... Hope some others with better solid knowledge would chime in soon. Good Luck .. my few cents in case

[yacn]

I appreciate the feedback.....

When I got home from work yesterday the tank was still cloudy but not as bad as the day before. It cleared up a lot. I'm assuming I went through the normal 3 day cloudy period described by many that have started using BP. I left my second skimmer hooked up to help with oxygenation and to help pull stuff from the water. I'm emptying both skimmers twice a day...mostly foam bursting through the lid....not a lot of water in the cups. I also took a fine mesh net and scooped up foam that was floating all over in my sump. Leather and mushrooms have shrunk up but all my fish look good. I stopped vodka dosing until I take a nitrate reading and other tests. Probably do that tonight...

[orly20]

Just read through the entire thread and it had some of the best anecdotal experiences with BP.

I have a 120 with a aquamaxx cone3 skimmer rated for a 350 and since day one I started with the full recommended amount for my tank. I am using an aqualund recirculating reactor and just now I am noticing the nitrates to go down. I only have about 7 fish in there now and I am feeding twice a day about 2-3 cubes a day.
It's been about a week now that cyano showed up lightly over the sand. I have two CP40 gyre one on either side of the tank.
I have no corals in the tank now just sticking fish first while I figure out the BP.

I'd love to read on any new revelation on the cyano issue and BP!

Thanks!

[cougareyes]

210 fowlr with a heavy bioload, about 150 water volume running an eshopps 300 skimmer. I read everything I could and felt like I set everything up to best of my abilities. Using an Aquamaxx xl reactor I started with 1/4 recommended pellets. Cyano started slow and I thought it would run it's course, it didn't it over ran my tank; took me at least 2 month to get everything back in balance after I pulled the reactor.

[orly20]

I feel that pellets if properly understood can be a solution to many of the common problems hobbyist have when dealing with reef tanks. Nutrient export is definitely one of the many points we try to master but reading on pellets people just have to have a certain degree of luck to get them working as intended. I hope to keep researching and hopefully find a balance before I give up on them. Thanks for the posts.

[cougareyes]

Just read through the entire thread and it had some of the best anecdotal experiences with BP.

I have a 120 with a aquamaxx cone3 skimmer rated for a 350 and since day one I started with the full recommended amount for my tank. I am using an aqualund recirculating reactor and just now I am noticing the nitrates to go down. I only have about 7 fish in there now and I am feeding twice a day about 2-3 cubes a day.
It's been about a week now that cyano showed up lightly over the sand. I have two CP40 gyre one on either side of the tank.
I have no corals in the tank now just sticking fish first while I figure out the BP.

I'd love to read on any new revelation on the cyano issue and BP!
Thanks!




Since you started with the full recommended amount I would keep a close eye on the cyano, if it doesn't even out and start to resede I would think about pulling at least half of the bp, that may help. BP are tricky I had a friend bragging how much she loved running her's, I gave her my jar of pellets when I pulled mine. She ran it for months, saw her recently and she pulled it from her system too.

[orly20]

Since you started with the full recommended amount I would keep a close eye on the cyano, if it doesn't even out and start to resede I would think about pulling at least half of the bp, that may help. BP are tricky I had a friend bragging how much she loved running her's, I gave her my jar of pellets when I pulled mine. She ran it for months, saw her recently and she pulled it from her system too.


Hi Cougareyes,
I've still been running the Ecobak Plus pellets in the circulating receator and I still get cyano on my crushed coral which is my sand bed. I don't have sand but crashed coral so I'm not sure if the crushed coral might be leaching out some phosphate.



I swore I read enough on these things to get to workout. Since I haven't put corals in the tank yet I'm not stressing it. The cyano is not that bad and it looks worse in the morning once the lights turn on as if it grew over night.

I'll keep trying and reading

Also my nitrates are at 5.0 and phos at 0

I guess the cyano is a small side effect to deals with at the moment

[yacn]

I thought I would post another update.

I continued to vodka dose through May. My nitrates finally dropped. I did major water change and stopped vodka dosing....hoping the BP would take over from there.

I consistently get cyano on my substrate. I am going to take tests this weekend before I do another major water change this weekend.

Hoping my nitrates will finally be within normal ranges.

I don't care for the cyano.
I'm not sure if I will continue BP or not at this point it will depend on the near future results I see.....still not certain it is helping or not. I was seeing cyano when I was just vodka dosing prior to adding BP. I've read vinegar dosing is better and doesn't lead to cyano growth. If I decide to do this I'll need an auto doser. I may just go back to doing more water changes or even consider ATS.

[tmz]

My experience has been different with soluble organics(ethanol and acetic acid/ vodka and vinegar) Some cyano during start up for a month or so which I think is a result of a shift in competition for reduced nutrients; none for the last 7 years or so; no gfo for the last 3 years. The 650 gallon system receives 90 ml of 95% acetic acid vinegar and 36 ml of 80 proof vodka ,bolus dosed in a split dose am and pm Coral vibrancy is excellent, nuisance alge is exteremly minimal. PO4 sits at 0.02 to 0.04ppm with NO3 around 0.2ppm despite very heavy feeding for over 50 fish.

If you have the time and interest a quick look at Randy's posts 2,3 and 4 might be helpful. Mine 156 and 159 might also be of interest.

For lots of detail on organic carbon dosing including many reports form users you may also find this thread of interest:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

[cougareyes]

Hi Cougareyes,
I've still been running the Ecobak Plus pellets in the circulating receator and I still get cyano on my crushed coral which is my sand bed. I don't have sand but crashed coral so I'm not sure if the crushed coral might be leaching out some phosphate.



I swore I read enough on these things to get to workout. Since I haven't put corals in the tank yet I'm not stressing it. The cyano is not that bad and it looks worse in the morning once the lights turn on as if it grew over night.

I'll keep trying and reading

Also my nitrates are at 5.0 and phos at 0

I guess the cyano is a small side effect to deals with at the moment

I'm definitely not the one to ask I was just sharing my experiences, but I can give you all the solutions that were given to me that didn't work. The first was what I said earlier about removing some of the pellets, 2nd is to slow down the tumble(if it's too aggressive it could be sloughing too much), 3rd tune the skimmer to skim a little wetter. Your nitrates and phosphates look good, and if the cyano isn't bothering you yet, I'd say ride it out.

[GimpyFin]

I've been using ecobak plus for probably a couple years now and love it. Aside from a little cloudiness early on, I haven't had any ill effects and no cyano (Don't have overly high flow in the tank, but no real dead spots either.) I use a hydra aquatics biopellet reactor that keeps the pellets tumbling almost perfectly without clumping or beating them into oblivion and the output is right next to the inlet on the skimmer. I don't use gfo, just biopellets and some sand/rock/chaeto in my refugium. Nitrate has stayed around 2 ppm give or take and phosphate usually .02 ppm or less.

[darrick001]

I am running BP but only about 2 tablespoons in a 300+ gal system. I am not using it to reduce nitrates but to increase bacteria as a coral food source. Nitrate reduction is a nice side benefit of my experiment. There is another possible cause of the cyno. As the bacteria count increases so dose the demand for o2. If the bacteria count gets high enough the o2 can drop. This is often counter acted by adding air stones. When the bacteria use the o2 we are left with co2 and cyno and Dino populations explode in the presence of high co2 level's. Even if your nitrates are at zero cyno and Dino will grow like crazy if your co2 levels are high.

[tmz]

While some autotrophic and mixotrophic organisms like cyanbobacteria and some dinoflagellates may benefit from higher CO2 levels as evident in low pH water ,the CO2 level and O2 level are not interdependent .There can be high O2 and high CO2 and vice versa.

The heterotrophic bacteria that use organic carbon also produce some CO2.