AEFW - zeo treatment worth it?

[flamron]

http://www.korallen-zucht.de/en/shop/products--technology/problem-solving/4850_flatworm-stop.html

Anyone tried it? A friend just posted it up on our local forum, but I'm not finding anything when I search for it.

Snake potion (likely, IMO)?

[MammothReefer]

Is that available in the states? What's the price?

[flamron]

I don't know if it is available or not. That is the only place I can find it.

Price is 89 E - euros maybe?

[Allmost]

Nice , its finally out ! I heard from middle of 2011 that Thomas is working on something like this, but no info yet. hopefully he will announce it soon.

it can be ordered diretly from KZ site from Germany, I buy many of my additives directly.

whos gonna be the first to try it ? lol not me.

[Piper27]

Wow, kinda odd how they said permanent use recommended but for a min. of three months. I wanna know whats in the stuff or at least how it works. Hopefully mine are gone for good and I never have to try it though.

[flamron]

What is the conversion to US dollars? I'm more than happy to try it out. For my tank size, the largest bottle would be 200 days worth.

[Allmost]

What is the conversion to US dollars? I'm more than happy to try it out. For my tank size, the largest bottle would be 200 days worth.

about $113.
www.xe.com for convertion.

Id wait a couple of days, for Thomas to make an announcement. we wont knwo whats in it or what the active ingredient is, but we would probably have more info on how its supposed to work.

this was what they were using before
http://www.korallen-zucht.de/index.php?article_id=52&clang=1

[Felixc395]

That's plain awesome. KZ does extensive research and hopefully this will work well! I'm sure it will fly off shelves so we'll see! I love all the ZeoVit products I use!

[MammothReefer]

3 month dosing time though haha.. leave it zeo to make a product that requires daily dosing for 3 months "recommended forever" still looking forward to hearing if this works. I guess we won't know 100% until 3 months from when the first person tries it?

[smsreefer]

That's plain awesome. KZ does extensive research and hopefully this will work well! I'm sure it will fly off shelves so we'll see! I love all the ZeoVit products I use!

I'm with you .
They may not say what is in the little blue bottles but everyone I have ever used worked well.

[crlmn11]

Was that correct $113 per bottle? Plus freight and customs. Wow

[takayan]

Hope it is not just Flatworm killer, but should be FEFW.

[BuckeyeTodd]

Was that correct $113 per bottle? Plus freight and customs. Wow

For the big bottle that is the correct conversion...small price to pay if it works, but I find this one hard to believe. They just magically found a cure to aefw, call me skeptical.

[fcmatt]

Other people have said it but I will restate it.

1. No where does it say that it kills acro eating flat worms. It "reduces" or gets "rid" of them.

2. A product which preys on the fears of hobbyists at their most vulnerable moment.
Naturally it costs much more then one would expect. Valuable ingredients indeed.

3. A product that is expensive and "recommends" permanent usage. Go figure. That basically
tells me that the product is already some what defective.

4. In the blurb it mentions "also ailing SPS" which got "better". Naturally no mention of AEFW
at that critical juncture in the blurb and the bottle itself has no mention of making all
types of coral "stronger". That is confusing to say the least.

5. Is it just me or I cannot seem to find any test reports? I did a google search and one witness saw
a whole bottle dumped into a display tank which really impressed him. Hmm. So what? Another translated
page I found some humorous info was the only side effect is that this product cannot be over dosed
and any real side effect must be something else. ;-)

Cynical? me? you betcha.

[rogerwilco357]

well I would hope that a company like Zeo with a Rep for helping create some of the best looking corals would risk their name on A scam product. But it didn't surprise me that you must continue to buy the product for long term success seems their complete product line has that going for it..either way I lost thousands and almost got out of the hobby in 2010 after getting aefw ..I waited all 2011 ..Now in 2012 I am starting over with SPS acros to be exact and would love to know this works and is available just incase all other precautions fail.

[jbanks]

If this witches brew shows any promise, it will be worth it's weight in gold! Hoping to hear some positive results!

[MammothReefer]

Ya, I don't care about the price. I have frags that cost that much. If this can make my life easier (although I don't mind blasting/basting.. I do dislike having to disturb some pieces to blast the undersides. ). It would be nice to be rid of aefw for good, but I'm not going to be the one to test it out. What I do now does a good enough job of keeping my tank relatively aefw free I can hold out for others reviews.

[Allmost]

word from Thomas Pohl is that this additive is not a medication, and it will not attack flat worms, it will help recover and strenghten SPS which can stand flatworms better reducing the Flat worms. seems like a very nice mix of elements targeting coral recovery to me.


should be ready for USA in 3-4 months.

[psteeleb]

^ +1, haven't tried it but, from what I read over on another forum, it doesn't attack the AEFW, rather it's a product that helps the corals immune system

[sahin]

The text on the bottle clearly gives me the impression that as others are saying; it will help corals recover damaged tissue; hence it will not directly target the FW's.

It also states on the bottle that permanent use is reccommended; but at least for 3 months minimum (<-to have effect)?

To be honest; having fought these crappy things a few time; I'd rather have some help and this Zeo treatment might just be that help; first time lost whole collection; second time made my corals very unhealthy, and only a few days ago I bought some fresh frags for my restarted tank and upon blasting a frag in an inspection bowl I only find AEFW's - frickin barstewards! :uzi:

I got rid of frag plugs and cut above the base then dipped in revive and blasted the frags. Frags looked crappy after for many hours but today all are fine and have polyps out.

Gone are the days when you buy SPS frags and cant wait to mount them onto rocks and stare at the tank feeling happy about your lovely new frags. - Now you gotta stand there and pray that AEFW's havent made it into your tank! :worried:

:deadhorse: Yeah, those flatworms I found a few days ago, I smashed them with my wifes cooking spoon thing! :lmao:

[maxheadroom]

copied:

FlatwormStop is a new treatment from Zeovit which allows direct dosing of a full stocked reef aquariums. FlatwormStop is safe for all fish and invertebrates and it works to eradicate Acro Eating Flatworms by stimulating the immune response of Acropora corals.

[msp307]

That's why I hardly buy anymore LFS dnt give a crap as long as they are getting paid, only place I'd trust is sustainable reef.

[fcmatt]

Calling the product flatworm stop which sounds like it actually "kills" flatworms is pretty darn
confusing eh? It almost reminds me of Salifert's flatworm exit which actually kills the type of
flatworms it is supposed to target.

[fcmatt]

The text on the bottle clearly gives me the impression that as others are saying; it will help corals recover damaged tissue; hence it will not directly target the FW's.



I am not sure why the bottle gives you that impression. The bottle description
says it gets "rid" of flatworms. In my vocabulary that means "kills".

http://www.korallen-zucht.de/index.php?rex_resize=450w__flatwormstop1_1.jpg

[MammothReefer]

Wellllllll... i guess the argument could be made (i'm stretching here). That if the Acropora some how develop an ability to repel/ressit the flat worms they technically would starve to death and die......

[sahin]

I am not sure why the bottle gives you that impression. The bottle description
says it gets "rid" of flatworms. In my vocabulary that means "kills".


Sorry, I thought I got the info from the description on the bottle. I read the KZ website and from there I got that impression:

http://www.korallen-zucht.de/en/shop/products--technology/problem-solving/4850_flatworm-stop.html

It states on the website:
"Product Description

Flatworm Stop
Right now we have an effective help against tissue eating flatworms on Acropora and for ailing SPS.
Flatworm Stop strengthens all kind of corals and reduces parasitical flatworms on Acropora corals at the same time. Very valuable ingredients are assimilated directly after dosage. In our tests also ailing small polyp stony corals recovered and rebuilt the basis as well as gained back the original coloration".


The description: "effective help against tissue eating flatworms on Acropora and for ailing SPS" doesnt lead to to infer that it is an outright targeted flatworm killer.


Also, "Flatworm Stop strengthens all kind of corals and reduces parasitical flatworms on Acropora corals at the same time". From this description I would infer that the potion "nourishes" corals rather than target killing AEFW's.


Additionally since it states that "Very valuable ingredients are assimilated directly after dosage". This leads me to believe that perhaps some form of substance is taken up by the coral which may either discourage (maybe even harm the FW's) after feeding on the coral tissue or perhaps whatever chemical is in the potion, it improves coral health/immune system and perhaps even aids faster recovery.


So to sum up; most of the descriptive text in my opinion points to something other than a targeted attack on FW's.


Whatever the case may be, if this is indeed an effective help, then I am very pleased for SPS coral keepers. Having lost MANY SPS that I collected from all over the UK, this is a welcome product for me.

[Allmost]

Wellllllll... i guess the argument could be made (i'm stretching here). That if the Acropora some how develop an ability to repel/ressit the flat worms they technically would starve to death and die......

+1

also, Iodine feeds flatworms. u didnt hear from me.

[Tony B (UK)]

This may well work, a few years ago I chucked away all my acropora due to aefw. I would have embraced such a product back then and, if aefw develop any time soon I will try this product myself.

[dzhuo]

^ +1, haven't tried it but, from what I read over on another forum, it doesn't attack the AEFW, rather it's a product that helps the corals immune system

It's hard for me to imagine the product can help the corals in such a way that they would be healthier than those found in NSW or its natural habitat which are still susceptible to AEFW.

At any rate, it's good that at least people are working to address AEFW. It's really a huge pain for the majority of us. If anyone try it, make sure to report back.

[Tony B (UK)]

It's hard for me to imagine the product can help the corals in such a way that they would be healthier than those found in NSW or its natural habitat which are still susceptible to AEFW.

At any rate, it's good that at least people are working to address AEFW. It's really a huge pain for the majority of us. If anyone try it, make sure to report back.

But in nature acropora withstand aefw, otherwise they'd be extinct.

Whether they withstand aefw due to predators eating the worms, or due to unknown environmental conditions (certain enzymes or aminos perhaps) or a combination of both is purely conjecture but it's reasonable to assume there's 'something' missing in most reeftanks. This allows aefw to prevail and results in the demise of the hosts.

Maybe, possibly, this bottle could contain that missing 'something' and it will be amazing if it does work.

I'm keeping an open mind. :thumbsup:

Tony

[dzhuo]

But in nature acropora withstand aefw, otherwise they'd be extinct.

No. That's pretty much false assumption. That would be saying impala should be extinct because lots of animals eat them.


Maybe, possibly, this bottle could contain that missing 'something' and it will be amazing if it does work.


It will be amazing, yes.


I'm keeping an open mind. :thumbsup:

I certainly hope the product works as well. I also hope they would tell us how or why it works. It seems like most Zeo products are proprietary so we might never find out why even if it works.

[Tony B (UK)]

I'm not going to get drawn into a discussion over analogies, although if you want your safari example to fit, it will - at least it will in your mind... :p

All I'm saying is, this product might work.

[dzhuo]

All I'm saying is, this product might work.

That would never be a false statement.

Does this product give any estimate of how long to expect to see improvement?

[Tony B (UK)]

That would never be a false statement.

Does this product give any estimate of how long to expect to see improvement?

I've no idea, perhaps you could contact the manufacturer or the distributor for the USA? :-)

Tony

[StarF]

i ordered a bottle to test. I got a small amount of aefw that i keep in check with blasting my corals and with wrasses.. sometimes i can see bite marks, and then it goes away. Should get the bottle in the end of this week, and i will update this thread, when i have tested it for some time...

[sahin]

i ordered a bottle to test. I got a small amount of aefw that i keep in check with blasting my corals and with wrasses.. sometimes i can see bite marks, and then it goes away. Should get the bottle in the end of this week, and i will update this thread, when i have tested it for some time...

Thanks for testing. Please do keep a good record of dosing and observations and then report here. Thank you.

[Allmost]

That would never be a false statement.

Does this product give any estimate of how long to expect to see improvement?

couple of german reefers I have spoken to, have been usingit fro a month and already see improvements. there are some videos on zeovit site.

[MammothReefer]

Any more news on this?

[sahin]

Yes, its nearly been a month, so have you noticed any reportable effects?

[StarF]

ben using it for around 3 weeks, i see no change. I still sometimes se bitemarks from aefw. I wouldent rule it out yet, and mabye its getting bettere, but its hard to tell. When i blow my corals, they dont blow off anymore, so mabye there are less of them now? any way i will continue, i bought a big bottle so there should be enought for at least 3 month´s of treathment :)

btw it smells a bit like vinegar, mabye vinegar with amino acids?, and it has a brownish color..

[sahin]

ben using it for around 3 weeks, i see no change. I still sometimes se bitemarks from aefw. I wouldent rule it out yet, and mabye its getting bettere, but its hard to tell. When i blow my corals, they dont blow off anymore, so mabye there are less of them now? any way i will continue, i bought a big bottle so there should be enought for at least 3 month´s of treathment :)

btw it smells a bit like vinegar, mabye vinegar with amino acids?, and it has a brownish color..

Hey dude, many thanks for the update. The fact that not as many come off the corals when you blast the corals can probably taken as a good sign that there is less of them. Just continue as you are doing. I hope things work out well for you. I lost sooo many nice SPS to AEFW's. :uzi:

Lets hope you get rid of them for good. :beer:

[StarF]

Hey dude, many thanks for the update. The fact that not as many come off the corals when you blast the corals can probably taken as a good sign that there is less of them. Just continue as you are doing. I hope things work out well for you. I lost sooo many nice SPS to AEFW's. :uzi:

Lets hope you get rid of them for good. :beer:

tnx man :)

well i never had a big problem with aefw, but even though i had a few wrass someone would show now and then when i blasted the corals, usaly there would always flot 2 to 4 off the corals, how ever that hasent ben the case for a few weeks, corals sometimes still show signs of small bitemarks, or mabye they just havent healed yet? any way i will update again later.

[Allmost]

tnx man :)

well i never had a big problem with aefw, but even though i had a few wrass someone would show now and then when i blasted the corals, usaly there would always flot 2 to 4 off the corals, how ever that hasent ben the case for a few weeks, corals sometimes still show signs of small bitemarks, or mabye they just havent healed yet? any way i will update again later.

any change on your coral tissue colors ?

is your system on Zeovit ?

thanks :)

[StarF]

any change on your coral tissue colors ?

is your system on Zeovit ?

thanks :)

none.

and no its biopellets.

[MammothReefer]

Vinegar seems odd, you can't just dose as much vinegar as you want to your tank. It would be like doing the same with vodka. Which is something this product claims, that you can't over dose it.

[MammothReefer]

well In a moment of weakness I bought 500ml directly from the zeo site desipite my better judgment and my normal skepticism over "snake oil". Shipping over from Germany not sure when I get it but when I do... ...I'll be your guinea pig :)

[WestChesterReef]

I ordered one today from American marine, its in stock, I tried premium aquatics first a month back ordered

[plyle02]

I will add my experience, I used full zeovit, had AEFW, and survived w/o casualties maily due to the overall health of the corals, and the fact that I basted each of them daily, my fish welcomed the sight of the sight of the baster, lol... I have read no threads or have experience with the said product, I do know that during my experience running zeovit, my coral health was exceptional, despite the dreaded pest. So maybe another of the supps that aid in the overall experience, don't know:)

[Reef Bass]

IMHO, snake oil.

[StarF]

i am ready to call it snake oil. The aefw problem hasent gone better or worse, its about the same. So about 2 month of threatment and no sigsns of it helping.

[sahin]

That doesnt sound so good...hmmm. Just keep going until at least the full 3 months before you stop it.

And in any event, if you have enough of the product go beyond the 3 months or as long as the product lasts.

But darn it...I was hoping this was something that would really help. :hmm2:

[StarF]

i will use it until the bottle is empty, might aswell but i doubt anything will change during the last month. I think it contains some amino acids and other stuff to give your coral a health boost and nothing more. but its just a guess..

[Allmost]

I think it contains some amino acids and other stuff to give your coral a health boost and nothing more. but its just a guess..

that's all it claims to do though.

+some minerals.

[Stuginski]

Hi reefers...

It´s very difficult to me believe in this product. Probably it will help to nourish the sick corals and improve the imune system but change something in coral physiology to force it to secrete something that repels or kills these specialist parasites it´s very hard to believe...probably it´s easier produce a transgenic coral resistent to this plague (i´m kidding!!!! this isn´t a easy job too).

I don´t think that is difficult to erradicate this bastards..but it is absolutely laborious. Setup a qt and bath the corals are a pain in the *** but works...
I´m with cross fingers to someone discover a good (SAFE) intank treatment....but the zeovit product seems to be more palliative than curative.

With lucky, i could be wrong!

Hails from Brazil

D.

[Jay4Robin]

I started using today . I have all new sps . I never want to have AEFW again. My tank crashed after treating with prohibit.
My tank is a Zeovit system.
I am using it as a preventive. I have over 40 new frags. I call it my Liquid Condom:D

I still dip all frags in Prohibit then dip into Interceptor before putting into my system.

The flatworm stuff does smell funky. Its like a crazy salad dressing:D

[WestChesterReef]

any follow up reefers?

[MammothReefer]

I wish I could give you an update, but I don't think it would be an honest assessment this early in the treatment. Unfortunately with a 3 month recommended dosing period it's going to be a while before people can give accurate results. Plus things are going to have to be a taken with a grain of salt, at least in my case. I found and eliminated a large batch of AEFW right before the treatment and didn't find any others. Could that have been the last of them, or will it be the flatworm stop that cleared up my tank if I don't find anymore. Also what happens if I add more corals during the course of the 3 months I could possibly re-infect myself part way threw the treatment with not enough time before the end to kill this new batch of flatworms. (I do have credits on file with 2 stores that I need to use ). I also have gone upwards of 2 months without finding any AEFW only to have them return.

All I can report as of now is I'm on my 7th day of treatment. PE does increase when I dose, I blast /basted the other nite and haven't found any AEFW yet. I'm also not seeing any damage that I can correlate to AEFW at this time, but that doesn't mean there are not some still present in my system. I've had this happen a few times only to find them lurking behind or under something I couldn't get to.

[MammothReefer]

Update for tonight, I'm on day 13 (of 90) and I found a large number of AEFW hiding out in the frag tank. Yes I know it's still early in the treatment (only 2 weeks in), but I'm going to keep updating as things progress. I did find it interesting that only 1 piece was showing signs of aggressive bite marks, even though I found the aefw on at least 6-10 frags.

As of this point I have not added ANY corals since starting the treatment so any AEFW that I have in the tank have been present since before starting (or born while in the treatment is on going). I need to step up the blasting and not just basting to at least twice a week. Regardless of flatworm stop working or not working I need to keep them in check the best I can so in the event it doesn't things don't get out of control.

One off topic thing I want to touch on I have seen some people infer that Red bugs some how keep away AEFW and that the AEFW only showed up or became a problem after killing off there Red bugs. I can assure you that I have both red bugs, and AEFW on many of the same pieces.

[Allmost]

funny how you say about red bugs and AEFW ... cause I too have them both lol

I guess ppl just notice AEFW, after their Red bugs are cured.


I have been using the flatworm stop for some time. and the damage on corals has lowered. cant really say if colors are better or not ... but PE is a bit better on some of my corals that were not doing well at all before.

still a long way to go before I can say for sure if its working or not.

[Cardiff R33]

where were the new AEFW?

[WestChesterReef]

thanks for the update Mammoth, keep us informed

[MammothReefer]

Ha it's funny that you say that as well I only found my Red bugs looking for AEFW.. Double wammy, actually found some Monti nudis a few weeks back in the frag tank but quashed that really fast. My tank is like a dive bar, once the word gets out I let in the bums, all the scum shows up hahaha.

The new AEFW were spread across 5-10 frags (i lost count really) in the frag tank, last time I found them (just before the treatment) I found them all on a single piece in the DT. I had found them before in the frag tank (once) but only in small numbers. This time I would say there were at least a dozen adults, no eggs. I only saw the tell tale bite marks on my "copps tri colour valida" (No I did not get the AEFW from him). They were along the underside where it is smooth. I found them on my PM, some millis, and some stags as well but while some of those had a little recession none had any of the circular bite marks.

[Allmost]

do you dose the flatworm stop in your main tank ? or both main tank and frag tank ?

could it be that they ran away from DT and took fuge in the frag tank ?

[trying to think positive :P]

[MammothReefer]

do you dose the flatworm stop in your main tank ? or both main tank and frag tank ?

could it be that they ran away from DT and took fuge in the frag tank ?

[trying to think positive :P]

They share a common sump but even so I split the dose between the frag tank, and the DT, Dosing 3-3.2 ml to DT and .3-.5 ml to the frag tank just in case my filter sock could some how prevent it from going between the 2 systems. I did however move a couple pieces over from the DT to the Frag tank, and vice versa last week.

[fishguy597]

Has anyone using this noticed their skimmer losing the foam head after adding? Then after a while the skimmer going nuts? I have been using this stuff for a week and this is what I have noticed. I have been also adding oyster eggs and (sorry brainfart can't remember the name) aka coral crack. These are the only changes I have done recently. just an FYI I haven't seen any aefw. I did have rtn happen to 5 corals and I'm not sure why. but none the less they were dead in 24 hours. By the time I got my fs I had a few other corals starting to show albums of rtn and it seems to have subsided . I figured that its supposed to help the immune system so why not give it a shot along with some good nutrients. just thought I would share my experience so far.

[MammothReefer]

No I can't say that I have noticed that, although my skimmer is very touchy if I put my hands it the water it drops foam head.

[ostrow]

Well, on RB and AEFW... I am one of legions who used Interceptor vs RB, despite healthy corals with zero sign of damage or stress. After Interceptor had rapid massive coral loss, starting with milles, due to AEFW. I had not added coral or rock for 6 mos prior to this sequence. I find RB to be non-harmful whatsoever and see no conclusive evidence anywhere to the contrary. But all of this is OT.

Here is my question, why the constant search for chemicals vs such things? One dancing shrimp per 50gal, plus a cosmetus wrasse per 100 gal, and AEFW problem solved. My tank is proof. Blasting shows no bugs after 3 months, been 7 months now.

[MammothReefer]

I was under the impression that dancing/camleback shrimp will eat the acrporas after there is no more flat worms?


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250580&highlight=aefw+predator+found
http://www.korallen-zucht.de/index.php?article_id=52&clang=1

[Atomikk]

I was under the impression that dancing/camleback shrimp will eat the acrporas after there is no more flat worms?


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250580&highlight=aefw+predator+found
http://www.korallen-zucht.de/index.php?article_id=52&clang=1

Put in a Hummu Hummu trigger, and the problem is solved. LOL.

On a serious note, shrimps in general are great for scouring for eggs/bugs in your reef. Plus wrasses do a great job at cleaning surfaces of your corals.

EX, look up Leopard wrasse. They are searching any surface that resembles a meaty treat. I got one and its incredible how much attention they give per one small area of your tank. Put in a few in there, and you will eradicate your problem.

[ostrow]

I was under the impression that dancing/camleback shrimp will eat the acrporas after there is no more flat worms?


http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250580&highlight=aefw+predator+found
http://www.korallen-zucht.de/index.php?article_id=52&clang=1

I feed my tank well. They never touch my corals. Crazy growth.

[correctamundo]

cosmetus wrasse would be the best for eating aefw?
would you have another suggestion?

Dont have them now, but I'd like a preventative fish in there

[nonimmigrant]

Other people have said it but I will restate it.

1. No where does it say that it kills acro eating flat worms. It "reduces" or gets "rid" of them.

2. A product which preys on the fears of hobbyists at their most vulnerable moment.
Naturally it costs much more then one would expect. Valuable ingredients indeed.

3. A product that is expensive and "recommends" permanent usage. Go figure. That basically
tells me that the product is already some what defective.

4. In the blurb it mentions "also ailing SPS" which got "better". Naturally no mention of AEFW
at that critical juncture in the blurb and the bottle itself has no mention of making all
types of coral "stronger". That is confusing to say the least.

5. Is it just me or I cannot seem to find any test reports? I did a google search and one witness saw
a whole bottle dumped into a display tank which really impressed him. Hmm. So what? Another translated
page I found some humorous info was the only side effect is that this product cannot be over dosed
and any real side effect must be something else. ;-)

Cynical? me? you betcha.

+1 I've never used anything more than a Halichoeres wrasse to control AEFW. I've not had a one in 5 years...

[MammothReefer]

month in now, aefw are the worst they have been yet. I think this stuff just ticks them off haha.. On a serious note I've had to go back to dipping even basting isn't working that well anymore. Using half doses of revive thinking of switching to bayer, or melafix. My red bugs are also on the rise, time to interceptor the tank.

:blown:

[WestChesterReef]

Central aquatics gave me a full refund, snake oil IMO

[Cardiff R33]

not good mammoth, i have found more damage myself. Today i am ordereing a cosmetus wrasse and some dancing shrimp, maybe four of them.

Really want to get rid of these before my upgrade comes

[SpinyReef]

Halichoeres cosmetus + dancing shrimps = Halichoeres cosmetus

[sahin]

month in now, aefw are the worst they have been yet. I think this stuff just ticks them off haha.. On a serious note I've had to go back to dipping even basting isn't working that well anymore. Using half doses of revive thinking of switching to bayer, or melafix. My red bugs are also on the rise, time to interceptor the tank.

:blown:

Melafix Marine by API claims to be an in tank treatment for flatworms. I bought a bottle about 6 months ago but never got to test it as I lost all my SPS due to a different issue.

I'm sorry to learn that the KZ stuff didnt work for you. I'm also kind of annoyed that this stuff is perhaps snake oil. I have used some of the KZ stuff like Coral Vitaliser, Coral Snow and Sponge Power and like those three products, but I think this one is pretty much useless...Very disappointing.

[Allmost]

yes, if something doesnt work for someone, its snake oil, doesnt matter how many others it worked for.

my tank is ran with Zeovit, and ever since dosing this, I see no more AEFW, nor red bugs, and corals are alot more colorful.


are amino acids snake oil ? cause some ppl dose it and get algae and no boost in coral growth, but when I dose it my corals grow faster ?

I dunno ...

one note though, is that you should put this [FWS] as a food source. not mineral source. and as we all know, all types of flatworms and red bugs and planaria multiply ALOT faster when there is too much "food" in water! so perhaps something to look at. I had to cut down on my Xtra dosing, and stop dosing CV one week into dosing this.

[MammothReefer]

Huh I was going to use it as a dip per Steve Garrets recommendations.

http://www.garretts-acropolis.com/Quarantine_info.htm


As far as flatworm stop. I still have 2 more months to go so the jury is still out, but this is where things are at so far. I'm not going to give up, and will update with any changes.

[MammothReefer]

yes, if something doesnt work for someone, its snake oil, doesnt matter how many others it worked for.

my tank is ran with Zeovit, and ever since dosing this, I see no more AEFW, nor red bugs, and corals are alot more colorful.


are amino acids snake oil ? cause some ppl dose it and get algae and no boost in coral growth, but when I dose it my corals grow faster ?

I dunno ...

one note though, is that you should put this [FWS] as a food source. not mineral source. and as we all know, all types of flatworms and red bugs and planaria multiply ALOT faster when there is too much "food" in water! so perhaps something to look at. I had to cut down on my Xtra dosing, and stop dosing CV one week into dosing this.


You bring up a very good point that I posted on the zeo forum. It seems to me the only people that are claiming the appearance are those that are running full zeo tanks. This product was marketed as a stand alone solution but maybe that isn't the case. I wonder if there was any testing done on non-zeo tanks.

Granted I do feel like I'm stretching here, but as I said on the other forum maybe all this does is illict a feeding response from the corals or allow them to some how feed more on whatever you are already adding to the tank. For those of us who aren't adding, AA, Phols, or whatever else you have present in your system we are getting a whole lot of nothing. The one thing I can attest to is hyper polyp extension after dosing.

With that said, there are only 2-3 people I've seen claim any sort of result with this product and since it's cross forum who knows if it's the same people using different user names on different forums (my name on rc is different then all other forums). I've felt I needed to INCREASE my feeding as of late my nutrients are holding at 0 nitrate 0 phosphate (which is unusual for me), and I'm seeing some corals (all be it a very small minority a few) going pale (not the typical zeo pastel), but more of a washed out look.

I don't know either, but I still have 2 more months to go. I just can't afford to sit back and hope this stuff works I need to take action to at least keep them in check long enough for whatever flatworm stop should do to happen.

[sahin]

yes, if something doesnt work for someone, its snake oil, doesnt matter how many others it worked for.

my tank is ran with Zeovit, and ever since dosing this, I see no more AEFW, nor red bugs, and corals are alot more colorful.


are amino acids snake oil ? cause some ppl dose it and get algae and no boost in coral growth, but when I dose it my corals grow faster ?

I dunno ...

one note though, is that you should put this [FWS] as a food source. not mineral source. and as we all know, all types of flatworms and red bugs and planaria multiply ALOT faster when there is too much "food" in water! so perhaps something to look at. I had to cut down on my Xtra dosing, and stop dosing CV one week into dosing this.

Like I said, I am not bashing KZ products. I actually think the Zeo System is very efficient and achieves the end result. I also use some of their products and know they work.

However, this is one that it seems to be snake oil.

I honestly would like to see this or another product work against AEFW's. I dont care who's product works. I dont have AEFW's but am always fearful of them. So as long as someones product works for sure, them myself and so many others would be very happy.

Snake oil or not. If this product works as you say it does, we will know for sure within a year as that would have been a sufficient length of time for most SPS keepers to know the whether it has a real effect on AEFW's.

I've talked to a few LFS's who use the product on some of their tanks and so far none have reported to seeing any real effects.

I guess time will show.

[Allmost]

Like I said, I am not bashing KZ products. I actually think the Zeo System is very efficient and achieves the end result. I also use some of their products and know they work.

However, this is one that it seems to be snake oil.

I honestly would like to see this or another product work against AEFW's. I dont care who's product works. I dont have AEFW's but am always fearful of them. So as long as someones product works for sure, them myself and so many others would be very happy.

Snake oil or not. If this product works as you say it does, we will know for sure within a year as that would have been a sufficient length of time for most SPS keepers to know the whether it has a real effect on AEFW's.

I've talked to a few LFS's who use the product on some of their tanks and so far none have reported to seeing any real effects.

I guess time will show.

I agree with you partially. AEFW treatment that works 100% would make someone or some company REALLY rich, and make many SPS keepers VERY happy :) including me.

I just dont see/know why and how u can call something snake oil, if you dont even have AEFW to deal with to see or not see results ! :)

doesnt that make sense ? a person with no headache, is NOT a judge on how well advil works on headache :)

the product was originlly made for color enhansing Acros. it was later observed that it helps make corals healthier and produce more slime, and in turned lower AEFW damage, and made colors of acros better. more healthy the more resistant one has to pests.

[sahin]

I agree with you partially. AEFW treatment that works 100% would make someone or some company REALLY rich, and make many SPS keepers VERY happy :) including me.

I just dont see/know why and how u can call something snake oil, if you dont even have AEFW to deal with to see or not see results ! :)

doesnt that make sense ? a person with no headache, is NOT a judge on how well advil works on headache :)

the product was originlly made for color enhansing Acros. it was later observed that it helps make corals healthier and produce more slime, and in turned lower AEFW damage, and made colors of acros better. more healthy the more resistant one has to pests.

Yes, I see your point regarding if I havent tested it myself how can I call it X or Y. I am basing my judgment on reports I have heard from LFS keepers, who in truth would be more likely to say that it works and sell the stuff...but have told me they havent seen any effect.

I have also been following at least 3 large forums on the net and reading the reports of real users. These are people who are going through the heartache of losing their precious corals. Some have a handle on the AEFW situation by using basting and via predation control, but still using the product to see if it can make their life easier.

So, whilst its not my own experiance, it is experiance from some very good reefkeepers and a few LFS keepers I trust.

Having said that, I would be very happy if this did really work.

[Cardiff R33]

Halichoeres cosmetus + dancing shrimps = Halichoeres cosmetus

:fun5: Do you mean the fish will eat the shrimp?

[SpinyReef]

:fun5: Do you mean the fish will eat the shrimp?

Yes. Halichoeres wrasses will eat small shrimps. As far as I know they'll leave the bigger ones (fire/cleaner/cb) alone

[Chronicj7]

Aquarium specialty sells all the KZ products which is where I order from. RBS.com also sells it.

[minhvu]

Here's my report. I've been battling aefw for about 4 months now. Been doing dips twice a week on the acros that show sign of bite marks with coral rx. Also been blasting all acros with a maxijet twice a week. I lost a large colony of bonsai, colony of ora german blue, and a few smaller frags.

I started flatworm stop about a month ago. I stopped dipping the corals after starting fws. I run a full zeo setup also. I haven't seen any fw since about 1 week ago. No bite mark neither. I still blasting the corals and haven't seen any.

I'm not saying that the fws work or that I'm aefw free. I did also added a melanrus wrasse about a month ago also. Not sure how much damage he done. I have noticed a lot more PE on my acro since dosing my tank. The colors are better also. I'm hopeing that fws is making my acros happier and healtier, therefore fending off the aefw. I'll continue to post my results in a few weeks.

[MammothReefer]

Here's my report. I've been battling aefw for about 4 months now. Been doing dips twice a week on the acros that show sign of bite marks with coral rx. Also been blasting all acros with a maxijet twice a week. I lost a large colony of bonsai, colony of ora german blue, and a few smaller frags.

I started flatworm stop about a month ago. I stopped dipping the corals after starting fws. I run a full zeo setup also. I haven't seen any fw since about 1 week ago. No bite mark neither. I still blasting the corals and haven't seen any.

I'm not saying that the fws work or that I'm aefw free. I did also added a melanrus wrasse about a month ago also. Not sure how much damage he done. I have noticed a lot more PE on my acro since dosing my tank. The colors are better also. I'm hopeing that fws is making my acros happier and healtier, therefore fending off the aefw. I'll continue to post my results in a few weeks.

Thanks for the update Minh,
I swear every person that has had good luck with this stuff is running zeo tanks. I have to wonder if there was any testing done on non-zeo tanks. I'm starting to think what it seems to do is illict a feeding response from the corals which if you are running a carbon based reef will allow the corals to uptake more food that you are already adding to the water? I donnu.

[Cardiff R33]

ok, i havent bought the shrimp yet so will just leave the wrasse and hope he helps!

[MammothReefer]

Day 40, found another batch of AEFW a couple nites ago dipped corals in revive. 50 days to go.

[WestChesterReef]

sorry to hear that, but good luck

[Allmost]

Mammoth, still no change in the color of coral tissue ?

any change in growth of algae in ure fuge ?

thanks :)

[Tony B (UK)]

Halichoeres cosmetus + dancing shrimps = Halichoeres cosmetus

I've had them together for 3 years. No issues.

[MammothReefer]

Mammoth, still no change in the color of coral tissue ?

any change in growth of algae in ure fuge ?

thanks :)

No improvement in colour no. If anything some things aren't quite as vibrant as before, but I can't blame that on flatworm stop. I chalk that up however to how bad the red bugs had gotten before I got fed up and interceptor the tank earlier in the week. I feel like within a month I went from red bugs on 1 piece that I dipped to try to curb them before it got to late to the entire tank & frag tank being over run. The final straw for me was when I noticed what had been a stable (slightly decreasing) amount to dose of ALK/CALC turned into a rapidly increasing amount. (Meaning the corals stopped growing). I had to cut back the dosing to prevent swings, and deal with the red bugs. I had another non-related issue to with some parameter swings (but luckily no causalities as a result). Everything is back on track as of last nite , but it's going to (like always) take a little while before the colour comes back around.

The one thing I am leaning towards flatworm stop changing is the coluration of a few "blue" pieces that have some what "grey'd/washed out" since using the product I didn't really put 1:1 together until today. I finally got a response from Thomas Phol on the zeovit forum. He recommends the following.


"Dear Brahm,
we have faster results on some testing Tanks when we dose FWS & K Balance in a glass, both 1ml/100L ,wait one minute and dose that in the tank per day. You also can dose that 2 times per day, that is no problem and get quicker to a better result. Test that 2 weeks then we speak again.

To take a tank free takes 3 Month and more.

Th.Pohl "

I'm awaiting clarification as to if he is recommending I dose double the amount, or if I split my dose between 2 doses. I do find it interesting he is recommending I use K-Balance now. Which makes me wonder if flatworm stop is some how causing my corals to utilize more then they normal would in terms of potassium. (which is something that can happen when using zeo, and other carbon dosing methods). This would explain the washed out blues, but I am a little skeptical in regards to having a potassium issue as it would also be apparent in my montiporas which are doing VERY GOOD right now both in terms of proper colouration and growth. I am not one to be shy of regular water changes. Either way I'm going to buy a potassium test kit and see where I am at. Low potassium could be a short falling of IO I just won't know until I test.

As far as algae. I don't have a fuge. My frag tank has become some what of a fuge for bubble algae, but I try to pull it out whenever I get a free moment. It's growth seems to more so depend on how good of a job I do removing it and what's left to repopulate. At one point I tried to add some cheato into the frag tank in hopes it would become the dominant algae over the bubble (which is a pest), but it had no traction with that effort.

[bigbuckdown]

im not ready to rule this out until someone who has dosed the product for the recommended dosage of 3 months and more. people jumping on the product before the expected time doesnt tell me anything. this product has been out since what ,february? once i hear people in june talk about how the product doiesnt work then we can call it "snake oil" but for now NO ONE should be bashing it quite yet

[MammothReefer]

im not ready to rule this out until someone who has dosed the product for the recommended dosage of 3 months and more. people jumping on the product before the expected time doesnt tell me anything. this product has been out since what ,february? once i hear people in june talk about how the product doiesnt work then we can call it "snake oil" but for now NO ONE should be bashing it quite yet

I hope you are not inferring that I'm bashing it. I'm still dosing it, and will do so for the FULL required/recommended period. I am just posting updates as things unfold so people will know what to expect based on my experiences.

With that said I did just receive this response with an explanation for usage w/K-balance.

"Brahm,
you dose :
Daily 1ml FWS and 1ml K Balance for 100L.

When you need quicker result you dose:

Daily 2ml FWS and 2ml K Balance for 100L.


Th.Pohl "

[bigbuckdown]

im not saying you im on many different web sites and i see what people are writing and none of them has done the full 3 month treatment. i havent tried it yet but i did order. it. just saying no matter what comes out people jump on the product before its fully tested in there tank.if you started this treatment say jan 27 and you are saying you have just as many flatworms as before then yes this product just is snake oil. people need to be more optimistic in this hobby and less negative and you will have more fun :)

[Jay4Robin]

I do not have any flat worms but was using it for a preventative and to help my new frags grow healthier.
I have noticed that my water has a haze on the surface. Like a residue.
My glass also needed to be cleaned more often.
I run a zeovit system. I cut the dosage in half and dose every other day.

Since then my water looks better on the surface and do not have to clean the glass as much.

Maybe it is snake oil LOL thats why I have an oil slick on the surface LOL
It also made the skimmer work a lot. I will finish the bottle and might sell the other one. I will still keep on eye on everyones progress.

I am scared of getting Flat worms again.

[250G]

following this thread with great interest

MammothReefer, thanks for the frequent updates and taking the time to communicate your findings. This thread will decide if it works for me.

I am reluctant to think a supplement company could come up with such a cure, but am certainly hoping they did!

[StarF]

I dont know what happened, over a long period of time i dident see any changes, i could still see bitemarks now and then, and it was like the problem came and went, how ever, the last month i havent seen any sign of them. I cant tell if it works or not, but my problem is now gone, could be a combination of the product and my wrasses. Any way i will probaly get another bottle, and keep using it, and see what happens..

no change in color on the sps though :)

[bigbuckdown]

I dont know what happened, over a long period of time i dident see any changes, i could still see bitemarks now and then, and it was like the problem came and went, how ever, the last month i havent seen any sign of them. I cant tell if it works or not, but my problem is now gone, could be a combination of the product and my wrasses. Any way i will probaly get another bottle, and keep using it, and see what happens..

no change in color on the sps though :)

any way you can specify "long period of time"

[StarF]

any way you can specify "long period of time"

1½-2month

[MammothReefer]

I'm really confused now. So Thomas Phol, pinged me back on the zeo forum. When I asked him if I should first test my potassium levels before I add K-balance (his potassium substitute). To make sure that 1) I need it, and 2) I don't over dose on potassium. His response (as seen below). Specifically tells me not to test?! That just seems odd doesn't it? Any of you read this different then me?

(my question to him)
Thank you, should I test my potassium first, or do I not need to worry about overdosing on potassium with this amount?

(his response)
Please dose, Pottasium is not the only element in K Balance. You must not measure. In my Tests i dose in a 8000L Tank 500ml FWS & 500ml K Balance Strong two times per week with a fantastic result after 2 weeks. The same we make on another smaler Tank with the same result.



-- whats the difference between K-balance and strong?

[Allmost]

KBS is supposed to be more potent.

none are that potent thought ... and its something other than KCL. no Idea what though.

I dose 5 times the recommended value, to keep my K+ in check, running a zevit system !

im gonna try that too now . thanks

[MammothReefer]

KBS is supposed to be more potent.

none are that potent thought ... and its something other than KCL. no Idea what though.

I dose 5 times the recommended value, to keep my K+ in check, running a zevit system !

im gonna try that too now . thanks


Hmm in the past when I had monti problems in a old system dosing vodka w/zeobac, phols, and some other stuff. I used this

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Potassium-Chloride-Powder-8-oz-227-g/777?at=0

to my levels back up at the time there wasn't any good test kits for K. What is everybody using these days?

[Allmost]

I did use a KCL powder before, not the same brand, bought it from a chemical place here, but it kinda made my corals brownish .... some told me its the CL some said its not pure[it was lab grae !], I have no Idea.

according to thomas though, KBS is not KCL, and contains more than just K+ ... no Idea what else or ... lol

but yea I hear u, confusing lol

[MammothReefer]

Ya I'm going to order up the K-Balance I want to go buy the book, but in the mean time I have some Aqua Craft K+ that I found in my fish drawer. Forgotten I had purchased it.

[marinelife]

I am about 3 weeks from 3 months, it took about 2 months before I noticed no Flatworms.
I had tons of flatworms and dipped them.
I had one coral that they seemed to always go to so I kept dipping that one with revive while at the same time using the Flatworm Stop. I dipped the coral the other day as a test to see if any were there. I got nothing, the coral was clean. I check my coral every few night and see no signs of the worms. Usually they are easy to spot.

I use no other supplements, just the Flatworm Stop

[Allmost]

Im also finally free of them.

also my red bugs are gone, which is a plus lol

[SpinyReef]

Im also finally free of them.

also my red bugs are gone, which is a plus lol

Were you using anything else than flatworm stop? Or were you also dipping

[Jay4Robin]

I have been using it for a few months also but never found any since the great crash of 2011 :lolspin:

I have purchased over 50 frags and all are happy and not AEFWs.

I think it should have a trojan logo on the bottle:D

[Allmost]

Were you using anything else than flatworm stop? Or were you also dipping

I stopped dipping my corals about 6-8 months ago ... I felt like the flatworms were going after corals with the least health, and dipping seemed to weaken my corals ... so I started noticing more AEFW attack on corals that were recently dipped ! [just what I felt, I have no count on them to know for sure]

so then I started with basting the corals twice a week and removed most bases and frag plugs, even removed some of the colonies that were hit really bad, and started dosing FWS about 3 months ago I think, my SPS reef is full Zeovit, so I use other Zeovit additives as well.

[akaimal]

If you use 8ML of Hikari Prazipro in 1 gallon of water. The flat worms fly off and die in minutes!! No stress on corals! Best dip ever!

[akaimal]

I have been flatworm free for more than 6 months now!

[marinelife]

for dipping you can use Coral Revive, the adults fall right off, the eggs left cause the issue.
The Flatworm Stop does something to the coral that make the worms not want to eat them!

[fcmatt]

I posted in this thread in the early stages and so far, after reading 5 pages, I am have not
changed my mind yet.

Just how ich can "disappear" by itself in a tank and come back strong later on.. the same
with other pests. Yet when it "disappears" the last thing you tried "fixed" the problem.

I had to chuckle what Mammoth said about his conversation with ?Pohl?. Naturally the guy
recommends buying more potions to fix a problem.

negative? you betcha when it comes to spending money. just going to a LFS and the
zillion odd products for sale that make dubious claims should cause one to wonder what
is going on in the hobby.

[250G]

exactly, let's not confuse "gone" with "dormant" and not easily found...

Just how ich can "disappear" by itself in a tank and come back strong later on.. the same with other pests. Yet when it "disappears" the last thing you tried "fixed" the problem.

[Allmost]

I posted in this thread in the early stages and so far, after reading 5 pages, I am have not
changed my mind yet.

Just how ich can "disappear" by itself in a tank and come back strong later on.. the same
with other pests. Yet when it "disappears" the last thing you tried "fixed" the problem.

I had to chuckle what Mammoth said about his conversation with ?Pohl?. Naturally the guy
recommends buying more potions to fix a problem.

negative? you betcha when it comes to spending money. just going to a LFS and the
zillion odd products for sale that make dubious claims should cause one to wonder what
is going on in the hobby.

see, many started calling this product snake oil, interestingly same ppl who dont ever try zeovit additives and call them snake oil. ...

many on this thread were using it, and were sceptical of it, and were writting very rude comments on zeovit forums for Pohl !

now, they are coming back and applogizing one by one for the rude comments, and posting pics of their healthy and happy reefs. just a happy accidents that ppl with flatworm used this and accidentally they got rid of it ?

about them being gone ... you are right 250G, BUT, why do we care about existance of flatworms ? cuase they harm our corals right ? now if they were "reef safe" would be still have problem with their existance ? probably not :)
so I think its the same thing .. gone, or no more damage from them ....
I am hoping though, in my system, without a host, they would perish, but no way of knowing.

FWIW, everyone who has used this product, was sattisfied at the end of 3 months. and those who never used it, will always call it snake oil ...

[marinelife]

I have had these flatworms for more years than anyone has talked about them. I lost so many corals before it was thought to look for bugs, it was always thought to be something with the water quality.
Since using this product my corals have started to look great and grow faster. The flatworms have disappeared. I would say they would not just disappear for no reason, if so why did they stay around so long and finally just dead off with this new chemical being added to the tank.
And no I will not add any other chemical from them. Just this one!!

[fcmatt]

see, many started calling this product snake oil, interestingly same ppl who dont ever try zeovit additives and call them snake oil. ...

many on this thread were using it, and were sceptical of it, and were writting very rude comments on zeovit forums for Pohl !

now, they are coming back and applogizing one by one for the rude comments, and posting pics of their healthy and happy reefs. just a happy accidents that ppl with flatworm used this and accidentally they got rid of it ?

about them being gone ... you are right 250G, BUT, why do we care about existance of flatworms ? cuase they harm our corals right ? now if they were "reef safe" would be still have problem with their existance ? probably not :)
so I think its the same thing .. gone, or no more damage from them ....
I am hoping though, in my system, without a host, they would perish, but no way of knowing.

FWIW, everyone who has used this product, was sattisfied at the end of 3 months. and those who never used it, will always call it snake oil ...

Can you point me to any studies done on this product?

Were beta users given this product in one control group while another control
group given a placebo?

Can you provide a full list of the ingredients?

Why does the product cost so much?

Why did you bring the whole zeo product line into this discussion? Isn't that
called a straw man argument?

"just a happy accidents that ppl with flatworm used this and accidentally they got rid of it ? "

what proof can you offer to back up this statement? often when people try
a new product they take special care of their tank over the period they are
using the product. By also doing increased dipping of coral, blowing pests off
the corals with a baster/pump, scraping areas or removing areas of a coral
that may contain eggs, adding a new pest removing animal, removing an
especially infected piece of coral totally, etc...

Which often leads to positive results that might not have anything to do with
this product.

This feels like the old feed your fish garlic to ward off ich.

I also have a feeling that the ingredients of this product are already contained
in existing products on the market at a fraction of the cost.

Keep in mind that it is not up to us, the possible audience of users, to prove
the product works. It is up to the manufacturer to provide proof that it works
via a scientific study or another related method showing positive results. So
far I have not seen anything yet but I am open to any and all links showing
such research from the manufacturer.

Until then we have a potion being dripped into tanks that have so many variables
in play that it is almost impossible to determine what is going on. It is that
exact type of situation of why "snake oil" products become viable to sell
and confuse customers.

But I will keep an open mind as I do for any possible product that makes me
logically think it has a chance to work via an active ingredient that has shown
positive results. But if the goal of the product is to have happy smiling healthy
corals I imagine I can achieve that result through good husbandry anyway.

[Allmost]

woah :) thats a long reply.

I protect my intellectuall property at what I do. there is no way I would release my designs for free on the net. and I charge premium for my products. [electrical stuff that has nothing to do with reefing but just using it as an example] so I understand completly if KZ does the same.

you are correct about the cost most likely. sometimes I put together just 2 resistors, and sell it at redicolous price ... the cost of the resistors is about 6 cents ... while I charge 60 dollars for the product ! if you can make the same, you are welcome to do a DIY .... same goes with KZ products .... you are welcome to make your own flatworm stop ... if you know how to get rid of them.

lastly, I am one of the users of this product, and posted my observations :) it has proved to work for me.

I wish you luck on achieving the same results [in terms of AEFW damage] but I was not able to make my corals healthy enough to stand the flatworms, the product flatworm stopped helped me with that. so for me, its worth the price :)

but I will admit again, that when I said they are gone, I meant I dont see damage from them anymore. I dont know if they are still in the system or not.

[fcmatt]

woah :) thats a long reply.

I protect my intellectuall property at what I do. there is no way I would release my designs for free on the net. and I charge premium for my products. [electrical stuff that has nothing to do with reefing but just using it as an example] so I understand completly if KZ does the same.




I am not sure I agree with medications for live animals that do not list the
ingredients/"design". Would you consume a medication yourself that did not list the
active and inactive ingredients? How about for your cat or dog?

Well I would not do it for my cat so why would I do it for my fish and coral?

We need the hobby manufacturers to be more professional about the products
they sell if we ever want to take things to the next level. Basically start
operating like a producer of vitamins, medications, etc for cats and dogs.

If the ingredients can be found at a local grocery store, home depot, and a
compounding pharmacy for pennies on the dollar of what they charge that is just
too bad for the manufacturers if they wish to keep an air of respectability in my mind.
They will actually have to give added value to keep us from making our own via
convenience, guidance/support, research, ease of use, etc..

So we as consumers need to step up and stop falling for these products time
after time and demand proof before a single thing is sold. Just because one
works and ten fail does not mean what we have now is correct and appropriate.

I guess when you reach a certain point of considering your tank inhabitants to be pets
that are with you for years on end you tend to demand more (an ingredient
list, research done on it with results, etc..) from such products that have the
potential to do good or harm.

I will get off my soap box now.

[Allmost]

okay at this point, I have to ask. 1. are you dealing with AEFW right now ?
2. have you read to see what this product claims to do ?

I am not sure I agree with medications for live animals that do not list the
ingredients/"design". Would you consume a medication yourself that did not list the
active and inactive ingredients? How about for your cat or dog?

THIS is not a medication.


Well I would not do it for my cat so why would I do it for my fish and coral?

We need the hobby manufacturers to be more professional about the products
they sell if we ever want to take things to the next level. Basically start
operating like a producer of vitamins, medications, etc for cats and dogs.

If the ingredients can be found at a local grocery store, home depot, and a
compounding pharmacy for pennies on the dollar of what they charge that is just
too bad for the manufacturers if they wish to keep an air of respectability in my mind.
They will actually have to give added value to keep us from making our own via
convenience, guidance/support, research, ease of use, etc..

So we as consumers need to step up and stop falling for these products time
after time and demand proof before a single thing is sold. Just because one
works and ten fail does not mean what we have now is correct and appropriate.
wrong again, who has failed using this ?


I guess when you reach a certain point of considering your tank inhabitants to be pets
that are with you for years on end you tend to demand more (an ingredient
list, research done on it with results, etc..) from such products that have the
potential to do good or harm.

I will get off my soap box now.

again .... the price, is for the intellectual property ! NOT the ingredients ! you need to understand this ! there are ALOT of softwares out there, costing alot ! and all there is to it, is some thousand lines of codes ... the codes are in english too ! do you ever email Microsoft and demand a free windows cause it can be typed by anyone ? do you call apple to make them put their operating system for free on the net ? NO ! that's their intellectual property, and they get to charge US who want to use it !


but I will agree, that IF thomas pohl and ppl like him revealed their secrets, the hobby might be more advanced. ALOT more advanced. but you can not blame them ! just like how I want to be paid for my designs, they too need to be paid for their findings or .... we had the same discussion with regards to testing and varification of processor systems in a seminar I went to many years ago. there were no papers on it, cause intel and sun system and apple and motorolla and so on, kept their testing methods secrets ! this was pushing engineers backwards ! so they finally agreed on sharing the info, to let the engineers and Phds work on it, and in last 5 years we see a huge jump in the field.


Lastly, you speak about good or harm ! what harm ? we are talking about IT working or not working on getting rid of AEFW DAMAGE ! [NOT working or not working to get RID of AEFW :) and not if the product does any harm. none has ever been reported. ]

[fcmatt]

1. I am not dealing with AEFW.

2. Yes I have read what this product claims to do. It does not claim to kill AEFW. It only
claims to "strengthens all kind of corals" which in turn it is supposed to reduce AEFW.
?Thicker slime? gets tossed around as the reason why acros can fight off AEFW.

I am also using the term medication loosely. If a product strengthens corals it could be
classified according to this definition of medication:

"A pharmaceutical drug, also referred to as medicine, medication or medicament, can be loosely defined as any chemical substance intended for use in the medical diagnosis, cure, treatment, or prevention of disease." (wikipedia).

Who has failed? Why the same sort of hobbyists who say it is working. Results vary and
one should also note that almost every post I have read online by happy users of this product
almost always add in other removal techniques I listed in a previous post. Same goes for
users who are not having a good time with it. Anyone can use google to read people's
reports. I just picked one quickly. There are more.

"40 days in, still finding AEFW. Still blasting & basting and started to go back to dipping my corals which I hate to do. All I've seen is a TEMPORARY increase in PE (hour maybe), and nothing else.

I've seen an increase in Red bugs, and an increase in the frequency of finding AEFW since using the product and have had NO additions to the tank. I've really had to up the other treatments to keep things in check (blasting w/a maxijet and basting w/a turkey baster, then dipping whatever pieces I know will tolerate it in revive. I also got to the end of my rope w/red bugs and treated my tank with interceptor this past week (they are gone now)). I've had AEFW in my tank over a year at this point, and managed to keep them in check with just blasting & basting. Unfortunately I can't say that flatworm stop has done anything to break the pattern at this point. 50 days left to go.

I've also got threads going on the zeovit forum. Seems the only people who claim it is working for them are people with full blown zeo systems. I don't know if It's something that needs to be used in conjuction with other zeo products, or blatant fanboyism. My questions go unasnwered on that forum. "
http://www.reef 2 reef.com/forums/general-sps-discussion/83462-zeovit-flatworm-stop-reviews-3.html

Intellectual property is one thing. Throwing out a product with the name flatworm stop
that may just contain the same ingredients that other products already on the market
have is just marketing balls. But who knows? That is the one thing this product has in
common with snake oil. One cannot verify it without going through a huge expense and
use of time that SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE MANUFACTURER and released to the
public so they can make a knowledgeable decision if they wish to buy the product or not.

"The phrase snake oil is as a derogatory term used to describe quackery, the promotion of fraudulent or unproven medical practices. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with questionable and/or unverifiable quality or benefit." (wikipedia)

Harm can come from a person thinking the product might work for them. It does not work
as expected and time has been lost which could have been used on more traditional
methods of removing the coral from the display, putting them in QT, and using a dip KNOWN (fact)
to kill AEFW, place back in QT, repeat the process, until all signs of AEFW are gone.

Do I mean harm that the product will outright kill your coral? No. I do not think I said that
though.

Time will tell though. Products like this come and go. Only products that actually work stand
the test of time and are available for years to come. Perhaps one of the coral gurus that
frequent forums like this will do a study on the product and release their work. I know it
is beyond my resources to do such.

[Allmost]

I think this discussion applies to ppl with AEFW, or ppl who have tried KZ products.

sorry but if you dont have the pest, and have never dealt with their product, then ...

read above, many ppl who DO NOT use KZ products have admitted it worked for them, so your post is void.

happy reefing. :)

[Allmost]

Harm can come from a person thinking the product might work for them. It does not work
as expected and time has been lost which could have been used on more traditional
methods of removing the coral from the display, putting them in QT, and using a dip KNOWN (fact)
to kill AEFW, place back in QT, repeat the process, until all signs of AEFW are gone.


posts like this grind my gears ... why are you posting results of something u have never tried ? the product sais youneed to use it for 3 months. ... you dont have the pest, you have never tried it, yet you are saying it doesnt work ? oh come on !!!


cyber reefing ...

[karsseboom]

Have you read the instructions on the bottle? Does it say it will rid your tank of Aefw or does it say it will promote healthier acro so they may fight off the pest. The stuff doesn't kill Aefw end of story.

[sahin]

posts like this grind my gears ... why are you posting results of something u have never tried ? the product sais youneed to use it for 3 months. ... you dont have the pest, you have never tried it, yet you are saying it doesnt work ? oh come on !!!


cyber reefing ...

FCmatt: Have you used the product? I can see the point Allmost is making here.

I'll be honest and say that I am very skeptical as to whether this product works, but it is just that; my own skepticism.

What we need now, is for those people who have used the product for the prescribed time period and who believe the AEFW's have been eradicated, to come back in say 6 months time and report back.

As SPS reefkeepers we need to work together in finding something that can help.

OK, so this product doesnt claim to be a AEFW killer, but if it works by a mechanism which makes the coral produce extra slime which hinders AEFW feeding, then that itself, can in fact, over time, indirectly eliminate AEFW.

I believe that is quite feasible.

If the AEFW's food source is limited then that will have an effect on their reproductive rates. In time, such factors can cause the population to crash.

[AcroporAddict]

I am using Flatworm Stop and K Balance in my 300 gallon reef. I dip all my corals when I introduce them and saw one that was RTNing from the base up, so I dipped and several flew off. I couldn't find any eggs on the coral/base itself, and I dipped all the acro colonies around it. I decided to try the FWS/K Bal combo after reading it on the ZEO Forum. Dosing 11ml of each daily. I am also inspecting all my corals every couple days. Been dosing for about three weeks now. I haven't seen any other damage from the AEFWs, and the corals are looking great.

I'm just hoping they were isolated to that one colony, but only time will tell.

I will say that when I opened up the FWS the first time, I had an urge to sprinkle it on a salad. Smelled like some Balsamic Vinegar dressing I had in the fridge.

I can't say it is working yet, but if it helps then that's great. I personally would find it hard to believe that KZ/Zeovit would jeopardize their reputation and the income they make from the Zeo Line for a quick buck on a fake AEFW treatment. Just doesn't make fiscal sense to me. Money made from the FWS has to be a drop in the bucket compared to the income from the entire ZEO line. I doubt they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that.

[fcmatt]

FCmatt: Have you used the product? I can see the point Allmost is making here.

I'll be honest and say that I am very skeptical as to whether this product works, but it is just that; my own skepticism.

What we need now, is for those people who have used the product for the prescribed time period and who believe the AEFW's have been eradicated, to come back in say 6 months time and report back.

As SPS reefkeepers we need to work together in finding something that can help.

OK, so this product doesnt claim to be a AEFW killer, but if it works by a mechanism which makes the coral produce extra slime which hinders AEFW feeding, then that itself, can in fact, over time, indirectly eliminate AEFW.

I believe that is quite feasible.

If the AEFW's food source is limited then that will have an effect on their reproductive rates. In time, such factors can cause the population to crash.

I have not used the product. I do not have AEFW.
But I have successfully battled other pests.
Flatworm stop is to aefw that garlic is to ich in my mind right now.

Your post is reasonable and people are waiting to see the results of user's
experimenting with the product. But on the other side of the debate we have
people claiming it is working, people saying the pest is gone, when in reality
they have no idea if it is true or not. Once again no different then healthy
fish in a tank that does have ich. Both pests just waiting for the right time to
pop up again and may not be visible.

I am also noticing that almost every user of this product uses other methods
at the same time to reduce/eliminate the pest.

I am also unsure where the whole slime thing came into being. It was not
mentioned anywhere by Pohl that I can find.

Either way.. I may be the most vocal negative responder but allmost (big ray)
is a hard core proponent. The product line from this manufacturer can never
be wrong based on reading his posts. So lets throw out both of our opinions a
and wait for others :-)

[fcmatt]

I personally would find it hard to believe that KZ/Zeovit would jeopardize their reputation and the income they make from the Zeo Line for a quick buck on a fake AEFW treatment. Just doesn't make fiscal sense to me. Money made from the FWS has to be a drop in the bucket compared to the income from the entire ZEO line. I doubt they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that.

The catch is they have clearly stated this product does not kill AEFW.
It "strengthens corals" in some fashion. Thus if it does not help a user with his
AEFW problem there are a million reasons why that happened and one can
never blame the product in totality.

[Allmost]

I have not used the product. I do not have AEFW.
But I have successfully battled other pests.
Flatworm stop is to aefw that garlic is to ich in my mind right now.

Your post is reasonable and people are waiting to see the results of user's
experimenting with the product. But on the other side of the debate we have
people claiming it is working, people saying the pest is gone, when in reality
they have no idea if it is true or not. Once again no different then healthy
fish in a tank that does have ich. Both pests just waiting for the right time to
pop up again and may not be visible.

I am also noticing that almost every user of this product uses other methods
at the same time to reduce/eliminate the pest.

I am also unsure where the whole slime thing came into being. It was not
mentioned anywhere by Pohl that I can find.

Either way.. I may be the most vocal negative responder but allmost (big ray)
is a hard core proponent. The product line from this manufacturer can never
be wrong based on reading his posts. So lets throw out both of our opinions a
and wait for others :-)

you are showing the value of your words, when posting about something u have not tried and .... :)
it would be like if I started posting about an airplane engine which I have never seen or have any Idea about ....... pilots would say keep ure opinions to ureself, untill u see one or use one or fly one :) and they would not take my word ! cause it is worthless !

you are just trying to make Zeovit look bad here, while u have not used it. thats sad !

if you do not have AEFW, and have not tried Flatworm stop, you should not be responding here, or giving opinions based on nothing.

I do LOVE Zeovit line of supplements ! it lets me keep more fish, and it lets me have no Fuge, which is helpfull in my case living in a small apartment. so yes ! I have gotten good results from it [among many, I am not he only one], and I do tell others about my EXPERIENCE. You on the other hand, have NEVER USED IT, and are posting based on nothing. what do you call a person that has an opinion on something he doesnt know about and has no experience about ? I think there is a word for someone like that!

[AcroporAddict]

The catch is they have clearly stated this product does not kill AEFW.
It "strengthens corals" in some fashion. Thus if it does not help a user with his
AEFW problem there are a million reasons why that happened and one can
never blame the product in totality.

I guess what I'm saying is I have more respect for the Zeo Line Makers than to believe they'd rely on the excuse "we didn't say it kills FWs." or something like that. Because even though it is not a FW killer, someone that uses it for three months and continues to see FW in their system is gonna lose some faith in the Zeo Line as a whole. I'm sure they thought of this before they started selling FW Stop.

Again, it all boils down to the make a quick buck scenario, and I just don't think ZEO would jeopardize their rep for some quick cash. That is not to say that FW Stop will work 100% of the time. Even though Tech M worked for me for Bryopsis, I can't say it will work all the time for everyone, even though many use it with success. Perhaps there are differing strains of AEFWs that have varying distaste for the effect produced by FW Stop?

[fcmatt]

you are showing the value of your words, when posting about something u have not tried and .... :)
it would be like if I started posting about an airplane engine which I have never seen or have any Idea about ....... pilots would say keep ure opinions to ureself, untill u see one or use one or fly one :) and they would not take my word ! cause it is worthless !

you are just trying to make Zeovit look bad here, while u have not used it. thats sad !

if you do not have AEFW, and have not tried Flatworm stop, you should not be responding here, or giving opinions based on nothing.

I do LOVE Zeovit line of supplements ! it lets me keep more fish, and it lets me have no Fuge, which is helpfull in my case living in a small apartment. so yes ! I have gotten good results from it [among many, I am not he only one], and I do tell others about my EXPERIENCE. You on the other hand, have NEVER USED IT, and are posting based on nothing. what do you call a person that has an opinion on something he doesnt know about and has no experience about ? I think there is a word for someone like that!


but here you are praising this product with no true certainty that the pest is gone, basically
adding another never ending cost to keeping your tank around, and now going down to the
level of using hypothetical insults.

i am also unclear how being in the hobby of salt water tanks since i was 16 years old (now 37)
somehow makes my opinion worthless due to not having used this product which is just
another supplement with no ingredient list that supposedly strengthens coral to fight off
aefw? just how many times does one have to see the same old games being played before
you realize there is rarely an easy fix to husbandry when you take short cuts when building
and setting up your tank and live stock?

i should just take a bottle of amino acids or what have you and slap a label on it. it would be
called flatworm repel and the same exact thread we have here would take place. guaranteed.
some will say it worked and others would not.

[Jay4Robin]

Over 60 sps frags placed into my system in the last 5 months.
Dipped them all with prohibit or revive .
I run a zeovit system so I started the FW stop a few months ago.

My sps look great. I just started the coral booster that was released.


I would think that at least a few eggs made it into my system . I am a believer that the stuff works!

[reefkeeper2]

Any updates? Any success stories using this product or is the jury still out?

[Allmost]

Any updates? Any success stories using this product or is the jury still out?

I think other companies trying to copy the product speaks for itself :)

most ppl on this thread who never tried it, still call it snake oil ... lol

and ppl who have tried it and were skeptical, now have AEFW free reefs [or at least no visible damage from them]

and of course, it did not work for some .... but what is 100% ? :) Ive seen ppl having Issues using po4 removers ... bad luck or the way it was used or ... who knows why :)

[minhvu]

I've been using it since March. I stopped blowing off the corals as soon as I started flatworm stop. I am happy to say that I have not seen a flatworm or any bite mark for a few months. My corals are happy once again and I'm able to keep millies and tricolor acros again.

[Atomikk]

Take a look at this thread (at the bottom)..

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253718&posted=1

FWIW I am using FWS since mid July and I am still holding hope that things will prevail.

[Jay4Robin]

He is a Zeo Head in training. It does not count :spin3:

FWIW its better then losing all your across. Everything I have read so far shows it at least gets them under control.
I would rather have a few spots then to watch a colony get destroyed.

I have been using it for over 3 months. 99% sps tank over 50 frags. I am able to sleep at night. A friend from the local club was infested and he started about a month ago and his corals are healing up.
It may not be a cure but it keeps them under control or maybe even rids them after a while.

[Atomikk]

He is a Zeo Head in training. It does not count :spin3:

FWIW its better then losing all your across. Everything I have read so far shows it at least gets them under control.
I would rather have a few spots then to watch a colony get destroyed.

I have been using it for over 3 months. 99% sps tank over 50 frags. I am able to sleep at night. A friend from the local club was infested and he started about a month ago and his corals are healing up.
It may not be a cure but it keeps them under control or maybe even rids them after a while.

See, for me, it is not economical to keep putting the band-aid on that bleeding wound. I have a 320 gallon tank and will not put my 99% healed acros back (from the QT that they are currently in) unless they are at a 100% level. I rather have them all die and have me start over, than have to spend crazy money to keep trying in keeping them alive. Its great for KZ but not for me.

This is why I am hoping that those which are affected show signs of recovery and signs of them being pest free. I guess only dipping them afterward would ensure that they are pest free.

[reefkeeper2]

I keep my acros pest free with the basting method. I have never lost one, or have even come close to losing an acro because of them. It's just a chore I would rather not have to do. I would also like to sell some frags. I won't as long as they are present in my system. My display is 427gal and I'm not going to spend all that money on a product that just controls them. I can do that myself. So, until the debate is over, or something better comes out I guess I just have to wait...and keep basting.

[MammothReefer]

Ran the full course did all the recommended additions. Still have AEFW. Drew the line when Phols only suggestion was "keep buying more". I responded with the first bottle was on me, second was on him..he didn't respond. To me that's a sign of somebody who doesn't stand by their product. If I shelled out money did exactly as instructed and it didn't work there is no way I'm going to keep purchasing more of the same product.

In my humble opinion.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cFl4G-aVv5M/T-m2dKhMIoI/AAAAAAAAAWs/V9FU8eajxJA/s1600/MythBusted.gif

[Soy]

I used 3 bottles and it didnt work. seemed like it kept the damage at bay for a while but when I laxed on the dipping they came back with a vengeance. I also got a thin brown film growing on the walls frequently which makes me assume there is some nutrient source in fws. I quit using the bottle and dip every coral simultaneously. last dip showed no signs of them but I'm planning on dipping them a few more times to be sure.

[Allmost]

Ran the full course did all the recommended additions. Still have AEFW. Drew the line when Phols only suggestion was "keep buying more". I responded with the first bottle was on me, second was on him..he didn't respond. To me that's a sign of somebody who doesn't stand by their product. If I shelled out money did exactly as instructed and it didn't work there is no way I'm going to keep purchasing more of the same product.

In my humble opinion.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cFl4G-aVv5M/T-m2dKhMIoI/AAAAAAAAAWs/V9FU8eajxJA/s1600/MythBusted.gif

have you seen any reduction, in terms of damage they did to your acros while using it ?



Soy ... it has nutrition, its coral food. it was never said to be anything else.

[Ostentum]

I dont understand either why people are spending so much money on something that has no proven track record and doesnt even claim to eradicate them. I hope that some good results come in time, until that time, i will use if I ever get AEFW again the levisole chloride treatment that I have used in the past. That treatment works and if done right no side effects to coral or fish.

[acesq]

All we have is anecdotal evidence, and that is likely all we will ever have. I can add my anecdote: I have been using the product on my tank for three months or so. I had a small population of flatworms (5-15 total would fly off when basting the corals) when I started, now I see no evidence of flatworms. What caused this, I can't say. I'd like to think it was money well spent, but I can't be sure. (I will continue to use it though)

[MammothReefer]

have you seen any reduction, in terms of damage they did to your acros while using it ?


No difference. Only regular blasting my corals with a mj1200 / basting, and a revive dip here and there when I see any population boom results in a reduction of damage. Both before, during and after the pattern is the same they go after the same corals.. So it's pretty routine to keep it in check at this point. Would love to be rid of them, but I guess until I'm ready to tear down I'll keep on as I am.. Over all the tank is still growing so it's no the end of the world just extra work.

[fcmatt]

Well here we are months later.

The product Flatworm Stop has changed it's label on the bottle.
From "rid" to "reduce" and highlights improved coloration and health.
Quite the difference from the first label which made a bolder claim and no
mention of health/coloration.

"Soy ... it has nutrition, its coral food. it was never said to be anything else."

So.. 45 bucks for that eh?

And still we see people who claim it works basting, blasting, adding fish, dipping, scraping, etc... and then turn around and say the product worked!!!

And still we have people claiming it does not work. Trying just the product or everything
listed above too.

So in the end the community is right back where it started except the people who
purchased flatworm stop are a bit poorer due to buying coral food.

Hopefully people realize this is no longer considered a magic bullet and if you want to
no longer have AEFW you cannot expect this to work.

----

On a different note I have absolutely no idea how people manage to dip corals that are well established in
a tank. One would have to destroy their tank to accomplish this so they must have a tank full of plugs with
little to no encrustation on the rocks.

[Allmost]

HII fcmat :wavehand:

Well here we are months later.

The product Flatworm Stop has changed it's label on the bottle.
From "rid" to "reduce" and highlights improved coloration and health.
Quite the difference from the first label which made a bolder claim and no
mention of health/coloration.


you knew it since 07/12/2012 07:01 PM :)

The catch is they have clearly stated this product does not kill AEFW.
It "strengthens corals" in some fashion

07/12/2012 06:56 PM

I have not used the product. I do not have AEFW.


just wanted to get the history of your obsession on this product up to date first.

now .... has Zeovit, carbon dosing, bio pellets and so on worked fro 100% of users ? it has NOT.
can we conclude that carbon dosing does not work since not 100% of users got good results ? NO ! it is scientifically known to help with reducing nutritions.

so if we sit down and think about it, user error plays an important part ! the product, has worked for me, and at this point, I no longer see AEFW damage, they may or may not be there, I dont care. cause they are not harming me and my corals anymore :) does this mean that it should work for 100 % of ppl ? I think not :) as we all know there are many other factors that are important in keeping a SPS reef healthy :)

[sahin]

I wish one of the main chemical related manufacturers in the aquarium industry would put some serious research into a cure for AEFW's.

I am sure lots of SPS keepers would pay good money for a bottle of potion that worked for sure. I would pay £50-70 ($75 to $105 US) easily to cure my tank full my AEFW's.

[Allmost]

you mean like interceptor ? in tank treatment ?

that would be great, but I doubt would happen, we keep way too many organisms in the same level in our reef tank to be able to target AEFW ....

but the fact that this pest mutates in our tanks shows that we are doing something wrong :) oceans carry it but never experience this much distruction it can cause in a reef tank !
perhaps we starve our corals too much.

[fcmatt]

allmost.. i cannot debate this with you. i just think it is pointless to go back and forth with
you. have a nice day.

[Allmost]

I agree, you should not be debating about something you have never tried nor have a use for, specially since you do not have AEFW :)

most of us on this thread, hope we were in your shoes, and didnt have AEFW to deal with :)

I wish you dont ever end up with them, but if you do, and decide to try Flatworm stop, please do come back and let us know your results, I personally would be more than greatfull for your hands on review. :)

[Jay4Robin]

I have been using it for many months now.
Did not think I had the pests since the crash .
I did have a few frags lose tissue on bases but they are now healthy and healed
I did not notice any AEFW
I would think after over 50 frags I would have had the buggers by now .
My tank is doing amazing!
I won't stop using the product. I do think the corals thrive from it .

[SpinyReef]

oceans carry it but never experience this much distruction it can cause in a reef tank !
perhaps we starve our corals too much.

I would guess that it has to do with predation. In the wild, there's always something that will eat something else. So The AEFW reproduce, but are kept in check by predators that are absent in our tanks.

[bigbuckdown]

First picture is the original label
2nd pic is new lable
3rd pic is what i found after 2 1/2 bottles of flatworm stop. I had this arguement with that guy on zeovit and he is as stubborn as they come. I first thought the product didnt work because i was still getting AEFW after i believe it was 2 months so i made this rant on how annoyed i was. Couple months later my corals started to improve so i thought it was working and i was excited so i went back and apologized for my rant. So i decided after 6 or 7 months to dip some corals and i found alot od AEFW even though my corals showed no sign so i took many acros out and each one had worms and again they didnt show signs but they were still there and when i looked closely i saw bite marks but the bite marks disappear after a few days which yeah it works for healing corals but not stopping or ridding them. The new label also states for permnant use which if you stop using it your corals will be attacked probably 2 times worse. I explain to that guy on zeo about the label and how it dont work but he doesnt answer anything he just keeps insulting so people can read that post and say YEAH THAT GUYS RIGHT BECAUSE HE CALLED THIS GUY A BAD REEF KEEPER SO IM GOING TO LISTEN TO HIM. If you are looking to rid your tank this product wont do that. It has the name to mis inform you so you will buy it but its just a coral immune booster and that is all. Believe me if any of you guys who say you no longer have AEFW take your corals out and dip they will still be there. So when you are selling your frags make sure you tell the person buying your corals you have AEFW and you are using flatstop because you will just spread this pest to them without you knowledge.

[Allmost]

So i decided after 6 or 7 months to dip some corals and i found alot od AEFW even though my corals showed no sign so i took many acros out and each one had worms and again they didnt show signs but they were still there

Hello,


congratulations :) so you are saying the product worked very well for you and as expected ?


or did you think this product is a medicine tht will kill all AEFW ?

either way, we want the damage/signs of AEFW to stop, and as you stated above, that has happened for you, so Im glad :)

[Allmost]

If you are looking to rid your tank this product wont do that. It has the name to mis inform you so you will buy it but its just a coral immune booster and that is all.

did they say its anything else ?

check the first page of this thread, and first page of Zeovit threads :)

[bigbuckdown]

Look at the first picture of the bottle it clearly states "helps rid AEFW" it doesnt matter what the web site says or what people are writing on here the manufacturer wrote it on the product what it is for i dont understand why people dont see that? it doesnt help rid AEFW it strengthens the corals to let them recover from getting eaten. Your corals are still being eaten its just harder to notice. when i pulled the colony out that had AEFW on it you can clearly see the bite marks just not as noticable in the tank

[Atomikk]

FWIW I finished my quarantine of 3 months using this product, and I can clearly say that it does work. It does starve them over this period.

I dipped all of my sps prior to introduction back into the display, and none had aefws on them.

Currently I am dosing the product into my display as a precautionary measure and am dipping tricolors to verify that they are not present anymore. But there is a trick to this maddness. I basted them frequently, and checked for egg sacks.

[xxxduke62xxx]

FWIW I finished my quarantine of 3 months using this product, and I can clearly say that it does work. It does starve them over this period.

I dipped all of my sps prior to introduction back into the display, and none had aefws on them.

Currently I am dosing the product into my display as a precautionary measure and am dipping tricolors to verify that they are not present anymore. But there is a trick to this maddness. I basted them frequently, and checked for egg sacks.

Whatever you did with the dipping and basting is probably what worked. They said that it does not build up the slime coat and it will not starve the AEFW. All it does is boost the corals immune system to make them stronger and recover alot faster.So when using the product it WONT ELIMINATE AEFW it will only enable your corals to heal faster. . I think that whoever bought the original bottle with the original label should be reimbursed if they were deceived by its label. Like the other guy showed it does say will help rid corals of AEFW but thats not what it does. If you bought the updated label bottle and expected to rid your tank of AEFW your out of luck. i was able to beat the AEFW buy basting and dipping with many predator fish

[plyle02]

FWIW,
In my last zeovit run tank, I definitely had AEFW, I used the turkey baster method, my fish actually became excited when the tip of the baster entered the water, clearly they enjoyed the AEFW as food... I was able to keep them under control this way, and due to enhanced coral health, from running the zeovit system, I would watch the affected corals heal as fast as damage could occur. So, my feelings are, without using this product, that zeovit alone, for me, is more than enough to keep happy acros, despite evidence of AEFW. I would venture to say as some have suggested, that this is another product designed to increase the immunity of sps, therby allowing for one to live with them until eventual starvation.
Regards,

[kawicivic]

This thread is a mess. I just popped in to see what happened with this product since I have not heard much about it after its release.

For those of you who have FW, you should check out Whisperer's bayer thread for red bugs. Many have had success killing FW with bayer dips. They have pics of success in that thread. Its quite the opposite of this thread. Everyone in that thread is skeptical until they try it and then afterwards they post pics of the dip to show that it worked. This thread just seems to be a bunch of arguing.

[Jay4Robin]

This thread is a mess. I just popped in to see what happened with this product since I have not heard much about it after its release.

For those of you who have FW, you should check out Whisperer's bayer thread for red bugs. Many have had success killing FW with bayer dips. They have pics of success in that thread. Its quite the opposite of this thread. Everyone in that thread is skeptical until they try it and then afterwards they post pics of the dip to show that it worked. This thread just seems to be a bunch of arguing.
Some people just like to make drama.
Every tank is different and some things just do not react the same way to treatments like others.
Its not an easy hobby and to deal with sps does not make it any easier.
Lets just be thankful that there is companies and products to try.

Lets face it we are all trying to duplicate mother natures powers and it is not easy!

[Bugger]

what does AEFW stand for

[Jay4Robin]

Acro eating flatworms

[joao junior]

Hi guys,yours stop the skimmer when dose FS?thanks.

[bigbuckdown]

Hi guys,yours stop the skimmer when dose FS?thanks.

My skimmer gets shut down every time i dose FWS and coral booster for 2 hours it doesnt kill off or starve AEFW all it dose is boost the corals strength and makes them recover faster. The quicker you learn this the less aggrevated you will be when you dose this product.

[Jay4Robin]

Hi guys,yours stop the skimmer when dose FS?thanks.
I never read anywhere that you need to turn the skimmer off.
I do dose it down stream from my skimmer intake though.

[MechEng99]

I read this thread and decided to not post earlier...too much arguing with nothing documented well enough to be called "proof" in my opinion. Then, I sat down to read one of my favorite gardening books, "Square Foot Gardening," and in it was this quote,

"My personal feeling about all pest control is that a given method will work some of the time for some people and for some plants."

In a previous comment, the author states, "Some of these controls work and some of them don't, and it seems like a new one is discovered every day. My advice is to read whatever you can, but don't get too excited by each new "breakthrough." Try it if you like, but don't expect it to work miracles."

Just thought it was very amusing.

And to avoid being bashed:

Yes, I have dealt with AEFW.
I am currently AEFW free thanks to my quarantine and dipping regimen.
I have not tried the product.
I do not plan to try the product.
I believe my quarantine/dipping regimen is as bulletproof as I can make it.

[slapshot]

My non-scientific feelings for what that is worth after using it for two months is who knows. I do not have AEFW. I did but I beat them with the Hefty Method, little Bastards. Since I had recently added some new SPS I thought I would run it as a preventative. The big change with my corals is polyp extension. They are crazy! Corals that never showed any extension are full now. If it works I think it works by increasing the polyp extension which makes it more difficult for the worms to get to the skin of the coral and they starve to death. That would explain why it works over a long time and people are still finding worms after using it.

So I ordered another bottle just because it seems to have a positive result on the health of the corals.

[Jay4Robin]

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s53/Jay4Robin/utf-8IMG_0130_zpsca0ebe37.jpg

[MammothReefer]

Got to side with BBD on this one. All the original marketing and collateral claimed the product was a CURE (ie RID your tank) of AEFW. The material was edited when it proven not to work. I don't know why people are so keen on waxing semantics.

This product does NOT rid, kill, or remove in ANY means AEFW from your tank. Lost in translation maybe, false advertising could be. The biggest thing that helps is the regular basting that it requires you do with dosing.

This is my AEFW infected tank living with Basting alone (and the rare dip of corals that aren't attached). Almost 2 years of AEFW and 8 months after giving up on Flat worm stop. I'm still finding them TODAY. Your corals will heal fast from a couple little bite marks if your tank is stable regardless if you use snake oil or not.

http://www.pbase.com/brahm/image/147913269/original.jpg

[aqua80]

agree with Mammothreefer
here is mine with AEFW and no FWS

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DLLh-9c4NZY/UPB03U6XqFI/AAAAAAAAAYE/tHrkAyVPkD4/s800/IMGP2257.jpg

[nanotank]

I dont understand either why people are spending so much money on something that has no proven track record and doesnt even claim to eradicate them. I hope that some good results come in time, until that time, i will use if I ever get AEFW again the levisole chloride treatment that I have used in the past. That treatment works and if done right no side effects to coral or fish.

That's like everyone bashing Zeo when it first came in the USA saying it was snake oil. Now well over 50% of the sps peeps r dosing a carbon source. Heck just regular reefers in general r dosing carbon sources. It was snake oil then but now its the norm.