Slow or No Growth

[MHG]

My tank is just a little over 100 days old.

I have zero, nitrates, phosphates
Calc is 460, Alk is 9.8 dkh
salinity 1.025
Temp 78
PH 7.9-8.2

I have zero growth on some eagle eye and only 1 polyp on some other type zoa (not sure what it is).

My GSP is growing like crazy, my button polyp and galaxia looks great (also no growth)


I read somewhere that phosphates can stunt growth. I did have a HA problem probably from phosphates leaching from the dry rock and growing HA before it was detectable. I now run GFO and have since gotten rid of that problem.


Suggestions?

[Conrad25]

Hair algae is gone? If its not gone, than you still have some issues going on. Also you have only really had the system going for 100days which isn't long at all for growth as usually when you going through all the new tank syndrom's you won't have much growth. Also are you doing regular water changes? Feeding habits? How many fish?

[MHG]

Makes sence.. thanks...

2 chromis, firefish, corris wrasse.

fish are fed once a day
Phytoplankton and reef snow daily for coral

HA 90% gone. less every day...
Monthly 10% Water changes...

[Conrad25]

Feeding the tank during the day with the photoplankton and reef snow? If you are I would do that at night with some moonlights on as that seems to get better feeding responses from polyps. The hair algae is consuming all the phosphates/nutrients so that when you test you are getting false readings of 0 when you do have some. Also I would bump the water change up to 20% and would recommend if you can to do more water changes like bi-weekly as that will help you a lot with nutrients and keeping levels perfect. Also you running RODI water at 0 tds?

[MHG]

Feeding the tank during the day with the photoplankton and reef snow? If you are I would do that at night with some moonlights on as that seems to get better feeding responses from polyps. The hair algae is consuming all the phosphates/nutrients so that when you test you are getting false readings of 0 when you do have some. Also I would bump the water change up to 20% and would recommend if you can to do more water changes like bi-weekly as that will help you a lot with nutrients and keeping levels perfect. Also you running RODI water at 0 tds?

Daily...not during the day

Yes, thats what I was saying aboutthe HA and the phosphates.

I dont have a nutrient level that I see...and I beleive my calk, alk and mag are all good unless someone is suggecting otherwise.

Yes ro/di zero tds

[A. Grandis]

When you have proper lights you won't need to feed the tank every day.
Try to cut feeding to once a week and make sure you've got a good skimmer running.
Turn off the pumps/skimmer to target feed.
Keep he water changes. At least 10% a month is fine.

Gradis.

[MHG]

Thanks...

[Exxotic]

Unless i read past it, What kind of lights are you using?
No matter what you should have growth right now. Tank is still new, but normally you would see some signs of growth. Feeding everyday like that will run you into problems eventually on a smaller tank that you are only doing 10% wc on a month.
Feed once a week or every 2 weeks. You dont have enough corals to feed that often.
They also may have a parasite. Take them out and give them a nice coral dip, and return back into the tank

[TropTrea]

I have a 120 gallon tank that has been up for 4 years. Initialy when I switched from a 75 gallon to a 120 I lost all my zoos. They simply never opened up again.

I started adding Zoo's about a month ago and would like some idea on what I should expect for growth rates. The frags I got now are called "Red People Eaters" deep red centers with green outers, and "Eagle Eye" green with a bright orange florescent inner ring. Both are about 10 small polyps on a 1/2" plug. Any idea how long it may take them to expand to the size of a quarter? Am I talking months or years?

[A. Grandis]

I have a 120 gallon tank that has been up for 4 years. Initialy when I switched from a 75 gallon to a 120 I lost all my zoos. They simply never opened up again.

I started adding Zoo's about a month ago and would like some idea on what I should expect for growth rates. The frags I got now are called "Red People Eaters" deep red centers with green outers, and "Eagle Eye" green with a bright orange florescent inner ring. Both are about 10 small polyps on a 1/2" plug. Any idea how long it may take them to expand to the size of a quarter? Am I talking months or years?

Probably months.
Growth rate depends on too many factors.

The less you touch them and the better you keep the stability/maintenance the faster they will grow, if everything is ok in the system (water params, light, etc).

Grandis.

[MHG]

Unless i read past it, What kind of lights are you using?
No matter what you should have growth right now. Tank is still new, but normally you would see some signs of growth. Feeding everyday like that will run you into problems eventually on a smaller tank that you are only doing 10% wc on a month.
Feed once a week or every 2 weeks. You dont have enough corals to feed that often.
They also may have a parasite. Take them out and give them a nice coral dip, and return back into the tank

The lighting is in my sugnatrure line.

48 3 watt led's

[MHG]

I saw on a few threads that I should be seing a few new polyps a month. I have only one for sure on one zoa and nothing on the others... GSP has doubled in size in two months.

[TjwBlake]

it took mine a couple months but they have recently started to spread, im noticing a couple new polyps here and there. I think it also may just take some time to find the right spot in the tank

[A. Grandis]

... and the less you look for new polyps, the more you'll find. :thumbsup:
Just give them some time...

Grandis.

[MHG]

... and the less you look for new polyps, the more you'll find. :thumbsup:
Just give them some time...

Grandis.

Yes, good point...

[Exxotic]

Each zoa/paly also needs time to adjust to all of your paramters lighting etc. They go through growth spurts, but i would say months to see many more growing. Good luck

[TropTrea]

So if I gather from the different discussions in various threads here.

1. I should not be discouraged if I see very minimal growth in the first 3 months.

2. Some varieties will take off and grow like weeds after they are acclimated.

3. Some varieties simply do not adjust to the conditions that may me be ideal for other varieties. So occasionally I might get some that just melt away in a few weeks while others types are thriving.

4. I know light is extremely important and different color morphs might have very different lighting requirements. What might be too much light for type A might be insufficient for type B.

[TropTrea]

So if I gather from the different discussions in various threads here.

1. I should not be discouraged if I see very minimal growth in the first 3 months.

2. Some varieties will take off and grow like weeds after they are acclimated.

3. Some varieties simply do not adjust to the conditions that may me be ideal for other varieties. So occasionally I might get some that just melt away in a few weeks while others types are thriving.

4. I know light is extremely important and different color morphs might have very different lighting requirements. What might be too much light for type A might be insufficient for type B.

[A. Grandis]

Generally speaking... adding to the list...

5. Depending on collecting practices, fragging and transportation, there will be an influence for the frag or colony to adapt to the new system. That alone will interfere with growth/reproduction since the begining.

6. There is much more to adaptation then water flow, light or water params. A good combination of those will help many of the species we keep. Quarantine is a great help. Avoiding to add predators will save entire colonies and growth time.

7. Small target feeding once a week helps most of the species to grow/reproduce, but the presence of a good skimmer and a water change schedule is crucial to keep the system running without trouble for long periods of time.

8. Changing bulbs every 10 to 12 months will keep the system with a consistent good growth/reproduction. Careful when changing the bulbs could save some colonies from bleaching in a very short time. Same about constant temperature. Changes in temperature also could have negative influences in growth/reproduction.

9. The bigger the colony/frag the better adaptation to a new system/growth.

10. The place you put the new frag/colony in the system will have a tremendous influence for it's growth/reproduction. To keep changing the colony around is not a good idea.

Ok... I'll let others contribute more to the list, so we can learn more... :thumbsup:

Grandis.

[TropTrea]

7. Small target feeding once a week helps most of the species to grow/reproduce, but the presence of a good skimmer and a water change schedule is crucial to keep the system running without trouble for long periods of time..

Ah and what do you feed your colonies? I have been rotating frozen foods on daily feeding of the entire tank. Cyclops, Plankton, Mysis Shrimp, and a coral blend. But I do know a lot is wasted and not getting to the corals.


8. Changing bulbs every 10 to 12 months will keep the system with a consistent good growth/reproduction. Careful when changing the bulbs could save some colonies from bleaching in a very short time. Same about constant temperature. Changes in temperature also could have negative influences in growth/reproduction. can learn more...
Grandis.

I will agree with this strongly. When I had MH's it was a bigger issue tan it is now. But with an 8 bulb HO T-5 system and a 4 Bulb system I change 2 bulbs basicly ever other month. Therefore no bulb is used for more than one year and any changes are much more gradual. When I do change bulbs I keep a simular bubl in the system and do make drastic lighting changes all at once.

But another important thing is keeping the lighting fixtures clean. Salt slowly builds up on the bulbs or shield and I do weekly cleaning of this.

I'm slowly going to LED's and that should stabalize my system even more for lighting. The better LED's are rated for a minimum life span of 50,000 hrs with for us relates to over 10 years. It should also help stabilize temperatures more than other lighting systems do.

[RtReef]

It takes time. 100days is early. Like someone else said, weekly water changes or even bi-weekly at this point will help with nutrient levels for about a month I would do this, then you can scale back to weekly of bi monthly WC. Feed good foods, keep lighting good, keep filters clean and good skimmer. Be patient and everything will take off.

[MHG]

It takes time. 100days is early. Like someone else said, weekly water changes or even bi-weekly at this point will help with nutrient levels for about a month I would do this, then you can scale back to weekly of bi monthly WC. Feed good foods, keep lighting good, keep filters clean and good skimmer. Be patient and everything will take off.

Well slightly a different topic, but people keep saying more frequent of bigger water changes to help with the nutrients... what nutrients are they refering to when Ammonia, Nitrites, nitrates, phosphates are all at zero...?

Dont get me wrong I am not dismissing the value or bigger and more frequent water changes, I am just curious if I am missing something.

[TjwBlake]

Well slightly a different topic, but people keep saying more frequent of bigger water changes to help with the nutrients... what nutrients are they refering to when Ammonia, Nitrites, nitrates, phosphates are all at zero...?

Dont get me wrong I am not dismissing the value or bigger and more frequent water changes, I am just curious if I am missing something.

I think it's a 2 sided statement. Yes this is helping to remove trace nutrients from the system, sometimes they are in small enough amounts that they my not register on a test. But it is also about refreshing trace elements (calcium, iodine, mag, etc) all things that get used up by the coral growth. It is more about keeping everything fresh and clean

[TropTrea]

Water changes are something that is extremly debatable as to what is adequate and what is excessive. The thing about large water changes is that they do create sudden changes in the enviroment of the corals which can cause tehem to have to constantly readjust.

I never tell people to change more than 10% of the water at once unless they have runn into some catrosphy that has made there water extremly foul. Yes I had experienced catrosphy years ago when somene dumped a full can of fish food in a tank . Having been in the business I also heard of many other nightmares like a drunk dumping his beer in the tank to make the fish happy. But generaly that does usualy happen.

Ones filteration system is probably even more important than water changes as well as what there dosing practices are. With a perfect dosing system and perfect filteration system theoreticly there should be no need for water changes. However in very few if any home aquariums is this possible. I like to think Im aproaching this as I do have a large 60 gallon refugium as well as good sized Protein Skimmer.

With adequate filteration you can get away with 5% monthly water changes but you realy cannot get away them completly. If your filteration is below ideal than the frequency of water changes should be increased. Doing 5% weekly changes is probably what the average set up needs. But under no circimustances would I be doining more than 10% on on a regular bases. And unless there was a specific temporary issue would I consider doing them more frequently that every third day.

Dosing as I said is also anoither big issue. Yes Calcium, Magnesium, and KH in the water does get used by the corals as well as multiple trace elements. The major elements do decrease in there sturation at various rates depending on which and haw many corals you have in your tank. In most cases simple water changes will not keep up the consumption of these elements and compounds so dosing is required. There are also trace elements that are much harder to judge since there levels may be close to undetectable yet they are important.

Is it possible to run a tank without adequete dosing and filteration? Probaly if its not over stocked and you do very frequent water changes. Looking at a 120 gallon tank doing 10% water changes every 3rd day means your changing out 12 gallons 120 times in one year using 1,440 gallons of salt water, or 10 pails of salt mix costing an average of $500 a year. A good Protein skimmer and dosing slighly can reduce this to less than 1/3 or $166 a year. For what you save in two years you can get a very good protein skimmer and realy reduce your work load. If you add a good sized refugium which are less expensive than protein skimmers you can probably reduce that salt usage in half again. This is not to mention the time you also save for yourself.

[MHG]

I hope you cut and pasted that from something you wrote earlier. Wow, thats a mouthful. Thanks...

I think if anyone thinks they have found the perfect setup, this site will produce a bunch who will state otherwise.


Unless I was retired, I cant see doing anything more than once a month. Thats why I try not to overload and overfeed my tank.

[Exxotic]

I guess it depends on the size of the tank, but my 34g solana maintenance is VERY easy. once a week or two water changes and when i remember change out some medias and wallaaaaa! I really judge things based off how my corals look and the less I mess with it, it tends to look better

[TropTrea]

Yes there are loads of variables. And like you said the less you mess with it the better off you are generaly. But when you do mess with it the secret is to do small changes rather than big changes.

Some thoughts went through my mind today. Theoriticly if you had a tank with nothing in it but salt water and some water circulation the tank would nopt need any filteration, dosing, or water changes. Now fish generaly cause the biggest bioload on a tank with feed, waste products etc. So if you do not keep any fish in the tank but only live corals the need for filteration and water changes would be minimized other for keeping the calcium, magnesium, Alkilinity and trace element up.

Has anyone tried this?

[MHG]

A few weeks ago, I noticed some bleaching in my lps corals so I cut back the light... Now I have zero growth so I am assuming my slow growth issue has been light related. As I slowly crank them back up we will see I guess...

[TropTrea]

A few weeks ago, I noticed some bleaching in my lps corals so I cut back the light... Now I have zero growth so I am assuming my slow growth issue has been light related. As I slowly crank them back up we will see I guess...

Light is a touchy thing and sometimes hard to balance. The key is that they enough of the frequencies they need without going overboard expecialy on the frequencies that are detrimental to them.

you could say there needs can be calculated by intensity times duration. However if intensity is laclking you cannot make up for it by going over 16 hours of light since they need there dark time as well. Simularly if intensity is too great it will burn them in a short period of time.

If they need an ideal 1,000 units of light every day you can go with 125 units for 8 hours or you can go with 65 uniots of light over 16 hours. but if you give them more than 16 hours of light or less than 8 you realu get a negative response since they cannot adjust to that drastic of a balance in there cycle.

[MHG]

well slowly bumping back up the light. I am getting some growth on my breen birdnest 2/3rds up. nothing on the rest... I am hoping I get some color back on my monti cap but my green button polyps look better now...

I am on the list for the clubs PAR meter so sooon I can make a more educated guess

[Mr. Microscope]

In some cases GFO+Zoas = :(
Try taking it out and running chaetomorpha instead.

[MHG]

Cheato wont keep the phosphates from food down...

[Mr. Microscope]

Chaeto + a good CUC + LR + water changes should be good enough unless you're feeding on the order of an azoo tank. Not to say that GFO isn't good, I've just found that my zoas consistently react negatively to it. Also, it's known to cause problems with clams.

[MHG]

Actually, I mispoke before. What I meant to say that the cheato did nothing but wither back when I first had a phosphate issue. However it was likely outcompeted by the HA so I will definetly give it a try...


I only feed a pinch of pellets once a day and a small squirt of whatever I have at the time every other day...

[MHG]

So I got my hand on a par meter. Based on the percentages I had my lights at when I first started the tank i had par over 700 at the top and over 200 on the sand. That explains why my coraline was beached off. I did have growth though. After turning them way down and slowly back up I am at par on the sand bet between 50 and 130 on the sand bed and 250 at the top of the rock. I had my lights about 20 percent lower when I started this thread . Since then i was starting to see growth on the birds nest at the top. so in another few months or so I should be at around 400 - 500 at the top. As I turn it up I am seeing a little more growth but very little.

I have some small spots of new coraline starting on the rocks.


My purple Monticello still has zero growth and is at 190 par.... I think it's dead but it has no algae growing on it and does not look dead. It hasn't budged in months.

[MHG]

Ok so the Purple monti is not dead. I can see some polyps scattered about....

Since removing a piece of rubber used to hold the metric output of the skimmer to the us standard PVC I have growth in most of my corals. I think that was the biggest problem...

I will keep you all posted...

[MHG]

Well while I do see improvement, mathimatically it will take 10 years for me to see what others have in 2 years... I wish there was something else I could test for.

[MHG]

So good growth now on most of my sps... Except my monti and my frog spawn. Zero growth in 5 months.... My zoos grow but only one or two heads a month... I have been feeding like crazy. I think I amgonna buy some more fish...

[A. Grandis]

You don't need to feed like crazy.
I guess you are talking about the fish.
Target feed the zoas with good quality dry coral food once a week, small amounts, and you'll see some good results. Do not overfeed.
Make sure the water chemistry is in check, skimmer is good and you have some flow going. Not to mention the bulbs in check.
Assuming everything is ok, the target feeding will help you some.
Same for the fishes. Quality food in moderation is better than excess of anything.

If you have too many organics in the system it can actually be detrimental to the organisms. Make sure you do partial water changes 10% month or 5% biweekly.

Every system is different and you need a good sense to figure out what yours is in need of.

Stability and balance are your best friends!
Good luck!

Grandis.

[MHG]

Well every time I tell people I have zero nitrates they say feed more because the nutrients are too low...

http://images.myreefstats.com/4925_4949.png (http://www.myreefstats.com)

[skidoctor]

I get a reading of 0 for phosphates. I do have cyano growing in my sump/ fuge, so I realize that it is a false 0. But since the phosphate is being used by the cyano, wouldn't that remove it from the water column in the DT, allowing corals to grow unimpeded by phosphates?

[MHG]

I had that issue with Hair algae outcompeting my cheato. The phopsphates were 0 and the HA was going crazy while the cheato died... Once I got the cheato under control my cheato is growing a little. I somewhat agree...

[A. Grandis]

I've got "zero nitrates" and feed the zoas small amounts once a week.
Fishes are well fed too with at least 3 or 4 different types of fish foods.
"Like crazy" to me means excess and almost to the point that they can't eat what is offered. :hmm4:
They have their limits to eat and digest. There are limits to the type of food offered also and their particular food needs for each species.

And you don't really need to do that in order to raise nitrates. Just cut down on water changes, if you really want. Depending how much and how often you change, I wouldn't do that. Many people would oe to have low nitrates and they can't. :thumbsup: Enjoy your aquarium!

Let them grow on their time... Main thing is that they are healthy and the system is without major problems...

Grandis.

[TropTrea]

Feeding the tank during the day with the photoplankton and reef snow? If you are I would do that at night with some moonlights on as that seems to get better feeding responses from polyps. The hair algae is consuming all the phosphates/nutrients so that when you test you are getting false readings of 0 when you do have some. Also I would bump the water change up to 20% and would recommend if you can to do more water changes like bi-weekly as that will help you a lot with nutrients and keeping levels perfect. Also you running RODI water at 0 tds?

I'll agree with Conrad with one exception. Rather than jump to 20% water changes simply to them more often. Sudden changes to cause the corals to have to readjust. But small changes done regularly will give you the same or better effect on the chemistry of the water yet be barely noticable by the corals.

I do a max of 10% water changes, but if there is an issue instead of monthly I have even stepped them up to every other day.

[MHG]

Well most of my acros are encrusting the plugs at a pretty good rate....growth on a few in general size has been good. Zoas still slow and two different frogspawns have zero growth but good color....

Now that my green birdsnest is coloring back up since I turned down my lights, I will start turning the lights up supper slowly ...

[MHG]

So if I gather from the different discussions in various threads here.

1. I should not be discouraged if I see very minimal growth in the first 3 months.

2. Some varieties will take off and grow like weeds after they are acclimated.

3. Some varieties simply do not adjust to the conditions that may me be ideal for other varieties. So occasionally I might get some that just melt away in a few weeks while others types are thriving.

4. I know light is extremely important and different color morphs might have very different lighting requirements. What might be too much light for type A might be insufficient for type B. you know as time goes on I am starting to agree that some work and some don't....but it is still soo frustrating....when I run out of AA any growth comes to a stop. After a week of dosing AA again, I get a little growth. If these frags don't work out, this is gonna wind up a FOWLR tank....I am not spending any more money on frags.... Free ones I will take..

[milesofreefs]

you know as time goes on I am starting to agree that some work and some don't....but it is still soo frustrating....when I run out of AA any growth comes to a stop. After a week of dosing AA again, I get a little growth. If these frags don't work out, this is gonna wind up a FOWLR tank....I am not spending any more money on frags.... Free ones I will take..


dont get discouraged, it takes time.. !!dont over feed!! i barely feed my zoas ever!! the only time i add phyto is when im feeding my sump to keep my pod count up.. and that goes straight into the fuge with no pumps on... though zoas are considered easy.. they still take time to adjust especially if your always adjusting things like lighting.. consistency is key. from my readings on here most keep there leds blues at 70/100% and whites 40/60% if something high up in the tank is starting to bleach move it down. start all your frags on the sand bed and move them up a little once a week. it takes time for corals to adjust to leds there a much more focused lighting then MH or T5. If your getting 1 or 2 heads a month on a 5 polyp frag thats good youll only see 5or6 new heads when that frag has finally become 20 heads. dont judge growth off of the naked eye take pics once a month and compare ill bet youll see more growth after six month of consistency the tank may take off and become a master piece. Just be patient.

[milesofreefs]

do you run any types of carbon source? like vodka dosing, VC or bio pellets? if not look them up. adding something for nitrates to feed on and turn them into coral food. i run bio pellets and when i do i see much better growth and color from my corals. the nitrates cling to them and become micro organisms that actually feed your corals and pods same thing with vodka and VC.

[MHG]

That's roughly a 2:1 ratio on the lights which is what I run. I do start all my frags on the bottom. Takes me about 2 months of inching them up in par....

I do run biopellets...

[milesofreefs]

That's roughly a 2:1 ratio on the lights which is what I run. I do start all my frags on the bottom. Takes me about 2 months of inching them up in par....

I do run biopellets...

then stop feeding so much.....

and in your other post your cal. is at 500 i think you should maybe lower that to 420/450 like natural see water.....

and be patient.

i didnt see any real crazy growth till my tank was 7 or 8 months.

[A. Grandis]

Make sure you target feed the zoas, if that's what you're looking for.
Nitrates are not that good. A good quality target feeding will bring nutrients to the zoas, not to the water.
Keep your alkalinity in check and make sure the other params are in their normal ranges.
Skimmer running, lights changed when needed...
I would check your nitrates with another test kit. Perhaps that one is expired?
If you're feeding a lot maybe the test is not reading good.
Too much nitrates is no good, as we know.
There is more to nutrients for zoas then nitrates and phosphates, I believe.
Yes, they take a while to get used to a new environment. That will depend on the species, system, etc...

Good luck!

Grandis.

[MHG]

Multiple test kots red zero on nitrates and phosphates...

[MHG]

Well dosing several ZEOVIT products has increased some growth..... Still slow but improving

[MHG]

So 9 months later here is an update...

Green button polyps, happy, some growth.... A few polyps on the sand every now and then so I am pleased..

Galaxia has overgrown the clams that were embedded..

AOG has added a few polyps

Green birds nest grew well for a while then stopped

Most sps frags are encrusting... Some didn't make it others are looking good.


Eagle eyes..... Maybe 5 new heads in 10 months.... I have two pieces in different light and flow.... Very slow...


So over all... Growth but still slow....

[MHG]

Well as I come up on the day where I bought my first corals one year ago...black Friday.... I am at the point of giving up.... My first corals I bought were some eagle eyes, one head of frog spawn.....my eagle eye has doubles in size and my frog spawn has split only once... That's it in one year.... The green birds nest I bought about 10 months ago is as big as a tennis ball. My 20 sps frags I bought since then are all just encrusting but barely cover the frag plugs.... Pitiful growth.... If all my frags grew as well as that birdsnest my tank would be amazing.... I just don't get it...


I have moved most of them around to different spots. Color is good on most but poor growth...

Recently I switched from Biopellet to prodibio. I dose several Zeo suppliments and switched to red sea coral pro salt. I do see a little better growth... My purple bonsai has started some new branches so I am hopeful.....but frustrated....

Now with more fish and slightly higher nitrates (.25) I am keeping my fingers crossed....

[A. Grandis]

Are you target feeding them quality coral foods yet?
I'm assuming all the other things are already taken care of.

Grandis.

[MHG]

I have tried the target feeding of rods food but have switched to broadcast feeding with coral smoothie several times a week...I switched because I was seeing no results from the target feeding and it is way more convenient to do broadcast...

Weekly water changes
Low to in detectable phosphates (depends on when I last used the coral food as it makes my phosphates jump up for about 12 hours)
Auto dosing alk and calc
Tested lights with par meter about 7 months ago so I know where I am putting things

The only thing that shows results is the Zeo suppliments....without them I have no growth except for that birdsnest. That thing took off from day 1...

[trinidiver]

Well as I come up on the day where I bought my first corals one year ago...black Friday.... I am at the point of giving up.... My first corals I bought were some eagle eyes, one head of frog spawn.....my eagle eye has doubles in size and my frog spawn has split only once... That's it in one year.... The green birds nest I bought about 10 months ago is as big as a tennis ball. My 20 sps frags I bought since then are all just encrusting but barely cover the frag plugs.... Pitiful growth.... If all my frags grew as well as that birdsnest my tank would be amazing.... I just don't get it...


I have moved most of them around to different spots. Color is good on most but poor growth...

Recently I switched from Biopellet to prodibio. I dose several Zeo suppliments and switched to red sea coral pro salt. I do see a little better growth... My purple bonsai has started some new branches so I am hopeful.....but frustrated....

Now with more fish and slightly higher nitrates (.25) I am keeping my fingers crossed....

Dont give up, i was like you at one time. But after awhile it just takes off. I could be wrong but it could also be not sufficient lights..........I'm not that strong a believer right now in LED's ONLY. Never tried it so i cant say. This is just my opinion.
Check my pics of my frogspawn. my first pic was in Aug 2011 with only 3 heads, in June 2012 it was over 15 heads. Ive never target fed them to this day. I feed my fish on a regular basis (10-15 times a day) with spectrum pellets, frozen mysis, freeze dried krill & freeze dried plankton. I skim heavy all the time. When feeding my fish, i always squeeze the food so it creates a juice that my corals enjoy. Other than that, i also use kent marine chromamax & kent marine microvert. All my other corals are doing great in my tank (over 20 types) I do a 50gal water change as a rule every 3wks. I'm not saying that target feeding wont work but it might just grow it faster. On another note, I've actually placed zoas on rocks (10 polyps) and in 3 mths has actually passed over 50 polyps. Then i also have some other polyps that is not too far off with the same lighting that has grown from 3 polyps to 6 in about 6mths. I've bought other zoas that took nearly 3 mths to open up. Some corals are really finiky. My tank is 72" X 30"H X 24"W and i'm running Current USA Pro series hood. 12 T5's X39W (8 X 12,000K and 4 actinics 03-420nm) followed by two 4ft Tru-lumens LED strips.
You got to stick with it pal..................... I never thought my tank will look like that in just over a year. I'e had some rediculous growth with some other corals. Spaghetti leather and a neon green polyp toadstool - 2-3" in aug 2011, 6" in jan 2012 and 10-11" in nov 2012.

[MHG]

Wile I have contemplates replacing my lights with a halide, I have seen many led lit tanks with good growth. Without turning this into a led vs ...... argument we are even starting to see TOTM's with all led's.


I am told 60 cubes are perfectly light with a 250 MH and I can get a complete used ballast reflector and used bulb set in manhattan for 50 bucks (just need to buy a new bulb) so I may give it a try.... But I don't want to start throwing money at the problem...

[A. Grandis]

I have tried the target feeding of rods food but have switched to broadcast feeding with coral smoothie several times a week...I switched because I was seeing no results from the target feeding and it is way more convenient to do broadcast...

Weekly water changes
Low to in detectable phosphates (depends on when I last used the coral food as it makes my phosphates jump up for about 12 hours)
Auto dosing alk and calc
Tested lights with par meter about 7 months ago so I know where I am putting things

The only thing that shows results is the Zeo suppliments....without them I have no growth except for that birdsnest. That thing took off from day 1...

Are the polyps actually grabbing the Rods Food?
I never tried Rods Food yet, so I wouldn't be able to know how good it is.

If they're not grabbing the food it is worthless to do any broadcast feeding, I guess.
There is no comparison between target and broadcast. Target gets the food directly to the polyps while when you broadcast feed lots of the food is wasted to the filters or it feeds the fishes and other inverts. Not to mention the excess nutrients in the water.

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Wile I have contemplates replacing my lights with a halide, I have seen many led lit tanks with good growth. Without turning this into a led vs ...... argument we are even starting to see TOTM's with all led's.


I am told 60 cubes are perfectly light with a 250 MH and I can get a complete used ballast reflector and used bulb set in manhattan for 50 bucks (just need to buy a new bulb) so I may give it a try.... But I don't want to start throwing money at the problem...

We just need to believe that any of the options available (MH,LEDs and T5s) for the reef tanks regarding lights are good for zoas and corals/anemones. That said the only thing to keep in mind is what you would like to choose and the adaptation period. I choose T5s and love it.
Zoas love MHs!!!
Please don't give up! It's just a matter of time...

Grandis.

[MHG]

Well my paly's are catching it for sure. My eyes are not that good to see if the sps is catching it....I don't mind a little excess nutrients in the tank as Half the people on this site will blame the fact that you are ULNMfor all your ills....

[A. Grandis]

Well my paly's are catching it for sure. My eyes are not that good to see if the sps is catching it....I don't mind a little excess nutrients in the tank as Half the people on this site will blame the fact that you are ULNMfor all your ills....

Please let me know what "ULNM" stands for.

Grandis.

[A. Grandis]

Please let me know what "ULNM" stands for.

Grandis.

?

[MHG]

Sorry, fat fingers...ULNS. (ultra low nutrient system)

[A. Grandis]

Well my paly's are catching it for sure. My eyes are not that good to see if the sps is catching it....I don't mind a little excess nutrients in the tank as Half the people on this site will blame the fact that you are ULNMfor all your ills....
Sorry, fat fingers...ULNS. (ultra low nutrient system)

Sorry, I didn't connect it to the meaning of the 1st post.
Could you please explain in other terms?
Thanks.

Grandis.

[MHG]

Meaning if I make a post that says I dont like my colors... I get "its because you are running a ULNS" If I say I have poor growth I get people saying "well its because you run a ULNS" even though I can point out many ULN systems with good growth and color...

That being said, I am no longer running pellets, I have doubles the amount of fish. Since one of them is a large anthias I now feed 3 times a day instead of two. My NO4 and PO4 are still at zero.... I have not seen any real improvement in growth in over a year... two sps colonies grow like weeds. My GSP does well also... The rest do not much of anything... My zoas are the slowest... I have fragged small pieces so I can place them in different parts of the tank in different PAR levels and the speed is pretty much the same...

[zoafarm]

My lighting is very close to yours (CREE 3w LED's 12CW/36RB). My experiences were very close to what you have been reporting. Although I get very good growth from all my SPS, some of my zoas/palys grow somewhat slower or in spurts. I think part of my problem is alkalinty stability, but the other part may be the color spectrum of the LEDs. I'm setting up a new tank, and plan to test this theory over the next year. The new tank will be zoa/paly exculsive...hoping to see if adding in a new color changes growth.

The reason I feel this way is because prior to putting LEDs on my system I ran a 6bulb t5 light, and saw opposite results...My SPS grew slow, but the zoas/palys seemed to grow at a speady pace...or at least a little faster. My LEDs have been on for almost a year now, and my zoas/palys are picking up pace at times. So it might just be a long adjustment period for zoas/palys.

Just to compare a little.
Tank: I have a 72 gal w/ 20 gal sump w/ under sized skimmer.
Dosing: I use carbon and poly filter. For dosing: two part to maintain Ca and Alk, Ma supplement, 1 drop of Lugols per month, and Purple up maybe once or twice a month.
Water Changes: 10% every 2 weeks
Water Parameters: Ca = 400-420, Alk = 7 to 8, Mg = 1320 to 1360, Temp. 78-80F, Salinity = 1.025. I don't check anything else unless something looks wrong.

[A. Grandis]

Meaning if I make a post that says I dont like my colors... I get "its because you are running a ULNS" If I say I have poor growth I get people saying "well its because you run a ULNS" even though I can point out many ULN systems with good growth and color...

That being said, I am no longer running pellets, I have doubles the amount of fish. Since one of them is a large anthias I now feed 3 times a day instead of two. My NO4 and PO4 are still at zero.... I have not seen any real improvement in growth in over a year... two sps colonies grow like weeds. My GSP does well also... The rest do not much of anything... My zoas are the slowest... I have fragged small pieces so I can place them in different parts of the tank in different PAR levels and the speed is pretty much the same...

Please tell me that you don't want your PO4 and NO4 high!!!

The only pellets I would recommend are the coral food pellets (target feeding). :dance:

My zoas grow pretty slow for what I want. They do grow faster when I target feed them, but still slow for what I want. I think the growth speed could be considered relative from person to person too. It depends what he/she see as " fast" or "slow". I don't worry much about their growth/reproduction rates today. I just do what I can and enjoy the tank and keep them healthy. The top part od my system is where the grow faster, close to the lights.
Some times I have also some bacterial infections (driving me crazy!!!) here and there and in some cases I've lost entire colonies for those infections. Those colonies took like 2 years to grow!!! Very sad!! They do come back and grow on the rocks again when I can manage to save some of the polyps, so...

I understand now what you mean about the ULNS. I have phosphates and nitrates around zero most times, but those aren't the only nutrients we've got!!! I think people get confused when they post those statements you've mentioned... There are many types of "ULNS" nowadays, I guess.
I know all zoanthids need nutrients, they also absorb some from the water besides the zooxanthellae source. I just have to believe they get nutrients from food particles too, once they grow a bit faster and some species manifest their colors better.
When there are extra nutrients for the algae in the water, they are used by the zooxanthellae, giving the darker color to corals/zoas (probably because of the number of zooxanthellae into the tissue) and not necessarily related to the colors we really want. There is so much to colors and growth!!! I mean, the pale appearance is a lack of zooxanthellae in those low, low nutrient systems as we know, if that's what people are talking about. Yes, in that case it could be a lack of NO4, PO4, generally speaking.

Target feeding will help with some of the colors/growth, depending on the coral food used and the way you feed. The special nutrition for color and growth will be going inside the polyps with target feeding. The bigger mistake is the excess of food into the system what brings problems with algae and cyanos, for example. Liquid invert foods are the worse IME. Broadcast feeding just gives us more work to clean the system with water changes, even with the the help of a good skimmer. Even good target feeding needs to be controlled. I feed only about once a week.

PAR levels aren't ALL what light is about, as we know. There is spectrum, intensity, etc... Spectrum is very important for zoas!!! There is the chemistry, temp, alk, pH too and so on...

Balance of nutrients and stability are the best you can offer in a zoa system.
Hope that helps a bit. :D

Grandis.

[MHG]

Thanks for the input. I appreciate any help i can get...

When I was target feeding in the past it did nothing much. Although I have returned to it last week.

Yes I know there is more to light than par but unless I missed a hobby grade light spectrometer at bulk reef supply, it is the only light parameter I can offer to assist the helpful RC folks in assisting me...

[A. Grandis]

The main thing with the target feeding is the type of food you offer.
Just like the fishes.
Best foods I've tried for my zoanthids were Reef Roids and Fauna Marin Zoa/Acan food and LPS pellets.
Well worthy!!
Coral Frenzy is a good one too. Polyps love that food!!
I'm trying Reef Chili now, but it's too early to say something here.

Turn off pumps and drop the particles on them letting them close with food inside. When they open you won't see the food. They'll ingest, digest and poop it. :) That happens with all of the zoanthids I've got. They do behave differently while feeding, but they all feed upon and will manifest better reproduction/growth rates. Try not to squirt on them because they'll just react against it and they'll close before the food touches them.

I've tried also different types of liquid foods in the past, mysis, brine and others, but they wouldn't make any noticeable differences. Those types will feed unwanted algae and the skimmer really well. :D

Grandis.

[Jarred1]

I will try to help you.

Are the zoas that aren't growing in the sand bed? IME zoas will only grow on rocks, once they hit sand they stop growing.

You say that your other corals aren't growing as well? When ever I don't have time to mess around with my tank (hands in the tank) the corals seem to do the best.

Have you read about Vitamin C dosing? If not you might want to look into it.

I also carbon dose to keep my levels NO3 and PO4 low. Everything is growing great for me, what works for one person may not work for the next.

Last thing I can think of is that it takes time for a tank to mature. A few months ago not much was growing in my tank but everything was still alive. Then out of no where every thing began to grow really nice!

[trinidiver]

That vit-c thing i'm willing to try but i'm hoping to get more info on it.

[TropTrea]

I'm not going to get into designer names but will tell you my results on Zoos over the last year.

Medium green fring with bright orange fring. Started with 8 polyps now have 32 polys the size of the polyps when I got it were the size about 1/8" across and are still the same size.

Dark green fring with bark maroon center. Had 6 polyps a year ago now up to 8 polyps. These are slightly smaller than the other green.

Grayish green except for the center with a bright but very small yellow dot in the center. These are growing wild about a 1/4 inch wide polyps started with 16 a years ago now I have well over a 100. Covering an area about 8 inches across by about 6".

How do these compare with some other individuals reults?

On the lighting thing several people mentioned. Do not go 100% by par meter readings. Par meters cover a broad spectrum and many ov those light rays are not benificial to corals. florescent lighting as it gets old shifts to longer frequencies which are more sensative to PAR meters but less benificial to corals. With T-5 lighting I always recommend changing 50% of the bulbs every 6 months. This assures you do not have bulbs longer than 1 year, and there is no sudden lighting change. If you change the color spectrum of one of your bulbs or want to do several only chang one at a time and wait 2 weeks before changing any others. Again to minimize sudden change.

[MUCHO REEF]

I'm not going to get into designer names but will tell you my results on Zoos over the last year.

Medium green fring with bright orange fring. Started with 8 polyps now have 32 polys the size of the polyps when I got it were the size about 1/8" across and are still the same size.

Dark green fring with bark maroon center. Had 6 polyps a year ago now up to 8 polyps. These are slightly smaller than the other green.

Grayish green except for the center with a bright but very small yellow dot in the center. These are growing wild about a 1/4 inch wide polyps started with 16 a years ago now I have well over a 100. Covering an area about 8 inches across by about 6".

How do these compare with some other individuals reults?

On the lighting thing several people mentioned. Do not go 100% by par meter readings. Par meters cover a broad spectrum and many ov those light rays are not benificial to corals. florescent lighting as it gets old shifts to longer frequencies which are more sensative to PAR meters but less benificial to corals. With T-5 lighting I always recommend changing 50% of the bulbs every 6 months. This assures you do not have bulbs longer than 1 year, and there is no sudden lighting change. If you change the color spectrum of one of your bulbs or want to do several only chang one at a time and wait 2 weeks before changing any others. Again to minimize sudden change.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

My friend, that was an awesome reply from beginning to end and I agree 100%.

MUCHO REEF
TOTM - August 2003

[MHG]

Thanks for the input. I have no issues keeping NO4 and PO4 low. My guess is that they are too low. One of the reasons why I stopped the pellets.


No they are not on the sand...

[aquaman.15]

i have an Eagle Eye colony that i bought as a frag that was about the size of yours and 4-5 months later its a colony of about 35-40 polyps

[MHG]

so no3 at .25 for a few weeks. I do see some improvement...

[MHG]

I can see some new heads on my zoas after many weeks of heavy feeding. My nitrates wont go above .25. But with .25 things are growing... still crazy slow, but at least some growth...

[MHG]

so my zoas and palys have been responding well since ZI have increased feeding in the tank and my nitrates have come up just a bit...

[MHG]

So i amateur .50 nitrates and I am seeing good results....

[MHG]

got to love that autocorrect spelling... Well as my nitrates go up so does my growth rate..... As soon as I notice a drop of in growth, I measure my nitrates and sure enough they are back to zero.... Gonna incrase the feeding again... That as well as regular water changes and gravel cleaning seems to be giving me the best results...

[TropTrea]

got to love that autocorrect spelling... Well as my nitrates go up so does my growth rate..... As soon as I notice a drop of in growth, I measure my nitrates and sure enough they are back to zero.... Gonna incrase the feeding again... That as well as regular water changes and gravel cleaning seems to be giving me the best results...

Be cautious of the phosphates though. Increased feeding can increase phosphates and I don't know of any corals that like hight phosphates. Then cyno bacteria love phosphates as well as red light.

[MHG]

Phosphates are easily keeps to undetectable with GFO and regular gravel vacuuming.... I also switched to HC GFO and its been great... But good point...

Brightwell now sells nitrate in a bottle for just this problem. There is one problem though... No one sells it....