What does my Hippo have?

[KingTang]

Hi folks,

My Hippo battled ich a few months ago and "won". His skin was nice and uniform. Than it came back, and left quickly, than it came back and looked really nasty.

The last week and a half he has small ich spots and what looks like black spots (possible black ich?) and some larger white areas. I took a video, please tell me what you think. All your input is greatly appreciated!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GCHKKQhUYw

[dunc101]

It looks like ich to me. I have also heard others talk about a parasite eating amphipod that shows ich like symptoms, but if you have had ich before, it is probably that again... Have you tried to treat for ich yet?

[MrTuskfish]

Hi folks,

My Hippo battled ich a few months ago and "won". His skin was nice and uniform. Than it came back, and left quickly, than it came back and looked really nasty.

The last week and a half he has small ich spots and what looks like black spots (possible black ich?) and some larger white areas. I took a video, please tell me what you think. All your input is greatly appreciated!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GCHKKQhUYw

How did you treat this the 1st time?

[KingTang]

I didn't treat it, never treated it. I always let it run it's corse. As long as he was eating I let him fight it off. I don't want to risk the chance of moving him into a QT tank and losing him because of the move or the stress of a new enviroment.

[Paul B]

That tang does not have ich, it has Cryptocaryon Irritans.
The main difference is that ich is much smaller almost like dust. Cryptocaryon is almost as deadly but not all of the time. You can do one of two things.
Leave it alone. It will most likely die but it may not. Or treat with quinicrine hydrocloride. That is a prescription drug and you may not be able to get it except from a Dr. or Vet.
If it is in a fish only tank, you can treat it in the tank with everything else.
If you could catch it, I would use a combination of copper and 10mg/gal of the quinicrine.
If you can't find any of that you need to look for a Cryptocaryn medication at a pet shop. They may have something but if they do, it is probably the medication I named.
By the way, these paracites are already in your tank in great numbers. If none of the other fish have it, they may not get it but that depends on the shape the fish are in.
Don't put any copper in your tank.

[KingTang]

It will most likely die but it may not.

Are you talking about the disease at this point or the tang?

[joaovieira]

[QUOTE=Paul B;19743684]That tang does not have ich, it has Cryptocaryon Irritans.
The main difference is that ich is much smaller almost like dust. Cryptocaryon is almost as deadly but not all of the time. You can do one of two things.
Leave it alone. It will most likely die but it may not. Or treat with quinicrine hydrocloride. That is a prescription drug and you may not be able to get it except from a Dr. or Vet.
If it is in a fish only tank, you can treat it in the tank with everything else.
If you could catch it, I would use a combination of copper and 10mg/gal of the quinicrine.
If you can't find any of that you need to look for a Cryptocaryn medication at a pet shop. They may have something but if they do, it is probably the medication I named.
By the way, these paracites are already in your tank in great numbers. If none of the other fish have it, they may not get it but that depends on the shape the fish are in.
Don't put any copper in your tank.[/QUOTE

Isnt Cryptocaryon Irritans ich ???
Thanks

[Paul B]

Isnt Cryptocaryon Irritans ich

No. ich is a much smaller paracite that almost looks like dust. That hippo has much larger paracites much easier seen. Cryptocaryn is similar in their cycle but the paracite is much larger. Many times ich is not even seen because it is mainly a paracite of the gills, when you see it on the fins, it is an advanced case. Ich always causes rapid breathing.

[snorvich]

According to Edward Noga in Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. 2000, Cryptocaryon irritans (also known as marine white spot disease or marine ich is a species of ciliate protozoa that parasitizes marine fish, and is one of the most common causes of disease in marine aquaria. The symptoms and life-cycle are generally similar to those of Ichthyophthirius in freshwater fish, including white spots, on account of which Cryptocaryon is usually called marine ich. However, Cryptocaryon can spend a much longer time encysted.

Useful treatments of Cryptocaryon irritans are copper solutions, formalin solutions and quinine based drugs (such as Chloroquine Phosphate and Quinine Diphosphate).

Infections can be extremely difficult to treat because of other creatures, such as corals and other invertebrates, which will not survive standard treatments. Ideally fish with Cryptocaryon are quarantined in a hospital tank, where they can be treated with a copper salt or using hyposalinity. The display tank needs to be kept clear of fish for 6-9 weeks, the longer the better. This gives time for the encysted tomonts to release infectious theronts, which die within 24-48 hours when they cannot find a host. Additionally, tank transfer (see sticky) can be used for treatment.

[Paul B]

formalin solutions and quinine based drugs (such as Chloroquine Phosphate and Quinine Diphosphate).


Chloroquine, quinacrine hydrocloride and pyrimethamine are all used to treat malaria in humans and are all effective as they will kill most paracites. All are difficult to get.
Copper works better on ich and a combination of copper and one of these medications works very fast.
You can use chloroquine in the tank (without the copper) as long as there are no corals or anemones. Generally crustaceans are safe and can be left in as I have used it a number of times in my tank and in a couple of LFSs. Of course it is better if you can catch the fish and leave the tank empty for a couple of months.
The names of these diseases changed over time and we used to call ich oodinium and before that it was called "white spot disease" or "coral fish disease". In the beginning of this hobby all fish were infected and we had to keep copper in the water continousely. If it were not for copper, there would not be a salt water fish hobby.
Ich and cryptocaryn are not the same but they can be treated the same.
Besides ich and cryptocaryn there are a load of other paracites but you need a microscope to tell many of them apart. It doesn't matter anyway because as aquarists and not scientists they can be eliminated with the same drugs.

[KingTang]

So I can leave him to fight it then right?

Also this isn't HLLE? I was worried it was early signs of HLLE, but didnt know what to look for.

[sandwi54]

So I can leave him to fight it then right?

Also this isn't HLLE? I was worried it was early signs of HLLE, but didnt know what to look for.

No you cannot. The fish may fight it off for a whole but will eventually succumb when the time comes. You will need to treat it.

[Paul B]

So I can leave him to fight it then right?


You can and it may just leave the fish and not come back but that is not usually the case. As I said it may depend on the condition of your fish and being the hippo is infected, his condition is not too good. I think you should catch him and treat him in a seperate tank. If the rest of the fish don't exhibit any spots you could hope they never get it and they may not but most people will tell you to remove all the fish and leave the tank with no fish for 9 weeks. If it were me I would remove the tang and treat it and not do anything with the rest of the fish unless I saw paracites on another fish. Then If that happened I would remove them and treat them and leave the tank empty.
But most people will disagree with me on that.

[MrTuskfish]

No. ich is a much smaller paracite that almost looks like dust. That hippo has much larger paracites much easier seen. Cryptocaryn is similar in their cycle but the paracite is much larger. Many times ich is not even seen because it is mainly a paracite of the gills, when you see it on the fins, it is an advanced case. Ich always causes rapid breathing.

I think you may be confusing marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) with oodinium (marine velvet). Oodinium is often described as very dust-like. Marine ich and Cryptocaryon irritans are the same thing in every reference I've ever seen.

[Paul B]

MrTuskfish, you are correct, although (in my mind) I did not confuse the two. It depends on how old you are as to what you call it. I am old so I call it the wrong thing. At the start of the salt hobby all fish had "spots" and we called all spots ich. We called almost everything ich, That started because in our fresh water tanks fish often got Ichthyophthirius which we called ich because we could not pronounce ichthyophthirius. Then when we switched to salt and fish got spots, we just called them ich. Then at some time, I forget when, almost all spots were called oodinium. There was no internet so as we read books that were outdated when they were printed we gradually learned that fish get a number of different types of spots which are differentiated by either being a paracitic dinoflagellate like oodinium or a ciliated protozoan like cryptocaryon which are two different animals but lucky for us are both killed by similar medications. So, yes I do call oodinium Ich, which is wrong. For both diseases I use a combination of copper and quinicrine hydrocloride. I have found that this combination works on any type of paracite or "spot". I am not sure if anyone besides me ever combined these two drugs but it works very fast like this. The problem of course is that the quinicrine is a malaria drug and it requires a prescription.
Now I am going tio stick my head underwater in my tank, hold my breath and think about this. :crazy1:

MrTuskfish, I keep my reading current
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/scan0012.jpg

[snorvich]

Actually, I too am considered "old" by most standards.

[sandwi54]

MrTuskfish, you are correct, although (in my mind) I did not confuse the two. It depends on how old you are as to what you call it. I am old so I call it the wrong thing. At the start of the salt hobby all fish had "spots" and we called all spots ich. We called almost everything ich, That started because in our fresh water tanks fish often got Ichthyophthirius which we called ich because we could not pronounce ichthyophthirius. Then when we switched to salt and fish got spots, we just called them ich. Then at some time, I forget when, almost all spots were called oodinium. There was no internet so as we read books that were outdated when they were printed we gradually learned that fish get a number of different types of spots which are differentiated by either being a paracitic dinoflagellate like oodinium or a ciliated protozoan like cryptocaryon which are two different animals but lucky for us are both killed by similar medications. So, yes I do call oodinium Ich, which is wrong. For both diseases I use a combination of copper and quinicrine hydrocloride. I have found that this combination works on any type of paracite or "spot". I am not sure if anyone besides me ever combined these two drugs but it works very fast like this. The problem of course is that the quinicrine is a malaria drug and it requires a prescription.
Now I am going tio stick my head underwater in my tank, hold my breath and think about this. :crazy1:

MrTuskfish, I keep my reading current
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/scan0012.jpg

Paul, I was not even born in 1972 :)

One problem with many hobbyists including LFS is that they are confused with ichthyophthirius and cryptocaryon irritans. I am pretty sure that some, if not most people think they are the same organisms. LFS often gives advice to saltwater customers such as "raise the temperature above 85 to kill ich" or "use quick cure (formalin + malachite green) to treat ich." I can only imagine how many fish are lost from the improper treatments.

Perhaps we need to do away with the common name and use scientific names only to avoid confusions.

[PJtree23]

Looks like it could be fungus.

IMHO

A QT procedure is worth the stress on the tang for the sake of disease transmission and all your lovely clowns!

[Paul B]

Paul, I was not even born in 1972



Then you missed out on a lot of good stuff. I have pods that have socks older than you. :wave:
My tank is older then you. :worried:
I have nose hair older than you :smokin:
1972 to me seems like last tuesday.
And obviousely I can't remember the correct names of paracites.
I wonder what else I am forgetting :(

Ok, thats enough youngin. :celeb2:

[sandwi54]

Then you missed out on a lot of good stuff. I have pods that have socks older than you. :wave:
My tank is older then you. :worried:
I have nose hair older than you :smokin:
1972 to me seems like last tuesday.

Ok, thats enough youngin. :celeb2:

Hahaha :bounce3::bounce2::bounce1:

[djkms]

Paul,

Isn't ichthyophthirius just the freshwater parasite and cryptocaryon irritans is the saltwater parasite?

[djkms]

Also, by the video I am not convinced its "ich" either. I have seen blue tangs in established reefs with spots like this and IMO they are irritated scales. I always catch blue tangs especially wedging themselves between rocks and hiding out in SPS colonies. Not a expert by an stretch of the imagination but spots like this come and go all the time with the hippo tangs I observe (I have a buddy who owns a Aquarium maintenance company).

[DanK13]

MrTuskfish, I keep my reading current
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/scan0012.jpg

Sweet book. I have a similar one but i didn't buy it...my dad did :)

You are correct though. Ichthyophthirius and Cryptocaryon are two entirely different organisms. Main reason is that Ich will not survive in flashed saltwater and vice versa with crypto. Not only that though they are both in the Phylum Ciliophora they are in two entirely different Classes.

They were once called the same thing but that was before fire was discovered and investigation into lifecycles was taking place.

[Paul B]

Isn't ichthyophthirius just the freshwater parasite and cryptocaryon irritans is the saltwater parasite?

Yes, kind of. But we also have the word ichthyophonus. Try pronouncong both of them fast 3 times. As I said we used to call everything ich. But ichthyophonus is caused by an internal fungus. You would think they would call these things different sounding names like, "small white spot disease", "big white spot disease", "fungus looking disease" or at least something pronouncable. I know it is all Latin and I also know that no one speaks Latin anymore and if they ever did, they must not have been in too many spelling Bees.

They were once called the same thing but that was before fire was discovered and investigation into lifecycles was taking place.



Yes it was and there is the problem. All of a sudden they changed the names of these diseases and us people who hung out with Neanderthals got old and can't get new names into our heads.
But us old Geezers can cure it in a day no matter what we call it. :smokin:
Originally it was called "Coral fish disease", then it was called "White spot disease".
In that book I pictured above there is 10 full pages on just treating oodinium with copper. oodinium at that time was about the only paracite, or at least we called everything either oodinium or ich, they were interchangable.:hmm4:

DanK13, Ilike your signature
Never try to understand water and electricity. The more you think you know the less you do.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/electrician.jpg

[cngreg]

On that type of tang I've seen marine white spot before and I feel it looks more succinct. In some species that mucus up around the ciliate parasites (like puffers and clowns) the lesions look larger and "fluffier" in my opinion. Specifically on the hepatus tangs, I've treated what looks like your fishes problem with gram negative spectrum antibiotics to much success. I think I did 500mg kanamycin to 20g qt tank once a day with water changes every other day.

[DanK13]

DanK13, Ilike your signature


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/electrician.jpg

Thanks mate :)

Haha, thats a funny picture.