Blasted Pyramid Snails!!

[ange062]

I happened to notice some small white things on the bottom of my crocea tonight. The clam likes to lay horizontal and I saw them on the bottom side "in the dark" but while the lights were on.

No clue where they came from, all of my clams have been in the tank for months. I pulled them all out and brushed them off, but didn't see any on the derasa or the maxima.

Guess I am going to be stuck cleaning the crocea for the next month in hope of eliminating them. The clam showed no adverse signs, mantle extension is still great, color is great, and light response is normal.

Wish me luck!

Here is what they look like, in case anybody was wondering:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/ange062/Nano%20Cube/DSC_0615.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff12/ange062/Nano%20Cube/DSC_0616.jpg

[MILPIL]

That's why we used to keep Wardley's Wrasse in the clam tanks. They will feed on these snails. JN

[moliken]

keep at it, maybe isolate the infected clams in a tupperware. i'm in week 5 of no snails after about 50 on my derasa and 4 others, so i have 5 clams in tupperware. oh , def'ly pyrams!

[ange062]

That's why we used to keep Wardley's Wrasse in the clam tanks. They will feed on these snails. JN

The melanurus wrasse is beautiful IMO and would be a great way to control the pyrams. Unfortunately, it's not suited for my tank as it's only 28g, the sandbed isn't deep enough, it's lidless, and I have several ornamental shrimp. :(

keep at it, maybe isolate the infected clams in a tupperware. i'm in week 5 of no snails after about 50 on my derasa and 4 others, so i have 5 clams in tupperware. oh , def'ly pyrams!

I spot checked this morning with a flashlight while the lights were off and didn't see any repeat offenders anywhere. I also didn't see any egg sacks when I was brushing, picking, and scraping snails off the clam last night. I'll continue the scrub down every other night for a couple of weeks and see what happens. That crocea was REALLY not happy with me after the cleaning, took it a good two hours to open back up and show some mantle extension. And to make matters worse, the rock it's attached to also has a decent sized millepora colony growing on it, so both the clam and acro have to go through the ordeal.

Unfortunately, I don't have a QT and the space is so limited in my 28g that I don't have enough room for an isolation tupperware, so I am stuck doing this the hard way. :(

Thanks for the positive ID, I was about 99% sure but wanted to confirm. Figured the pics might help others ID if they suspect a problem also.

[moliken]

pyrams have ridges on the shell, like yours do, rissoids, their harmless look alike, have more like rice chex.

[Todd100]

I'm also going to pitch out the wrasse as a possible snail solution. Mystery wrasse would be a good place to start for a couple reasons. It would be ok in a 28 gallon tank as far as room to swim. I read that they do eat these small snails from a source I don't remember. The Mystery wrasse doesn't need substrate to sleep in. It uses a mucus sack like a sleeping bag to shelter itself during sleep. I had one until a week go. I traded him back for store credit. It was just too aggressive for my tank, always chasing fish and killing a fire shrimp bigger than itself! It was a good predator of all things that live on the surfaces and substrate of my reef tank. They are usually more expensive than my lfs at 60 but each clam is expensive to lose as well. I've read these snails can get inside the clam which will really cause havoc. The pyramid? snails are nocturnal so keeping the lights (with a much lower intensity) on 24/7 will get the snails and wrasse to bump into each other more often. The separation with the containers and manual removal is a good idea but I wonder if it will be enough to stop the snails from overwhelming the clams.

Comments x Questions?

[moliken]

sorry to disagree about using any wrasse w/pyrams, but it is not a way to eradicate snails. maybe control to some degree, but not get rid of. 1 snail can lay eggs that will become more snails. wrasses cannot get rid of the egg masses. this is not my info, it comes from fatherree's book. the only way to eliminate the bstrds is a regimen of scrubbing. the isolating helps this process b/c every scrub also involves dumping substrate, which is where many pyrams live in daylight. also where did you read that pyrams "get into" clams?

[ange062]

sorry to disagree about using any wrasse w/pyrams, but it is not a way to eradicate snails. maybe control to some degree, but not get rid of. 1 snail can lay eggs that will become more snails. wrasses cannot get rid of the egg masses. this is not my info, it comes from fatherree's book. the only way to eliminate the bstrds is a regimen of scrubbing. the isolating helps this process b/c every scrub also involves dumping substrate, which is where many pyrams live in daylight. also where did you read that pyrams "get into" clams?

What are your thoughts on pyrams on liverock? The only clam I have found affected so far is the crocea which is attached up in the liverock far from the sandbed so I am thinking the "substrate removal" isn't applicable.

As I mentioned, even though I didn't see anything on them I cleaned the derasa and maxima also, and scooped out the sandbed below them just to be extra safe.

[moliken]

they can exist on lr, as i've also had 2 affected that were attached to a lg rock. but both of them had only 1 snail apiece. nevertheless, i cut them off and hav them in tupperware. my derasa in sandbed had 35, yet the hippo 2 inches away had none. never saw any on the derasa until i picked it up. weird

[ange062]

Thanks moliken, I figured it was probably a better situation on the LR then on the sand. I haven't seen them return yet, but will be doing another scrub down tomorrow.

[moliken]

make sure to burp clam when returning it to dt to remove any air bubbles!

[ange062]

make sure to burp clam when returning it to dt to remove any air bubbles!

Yup, I burped all 3 of them and held them horizontal when out of the water :)

Another flashlight inspection at lights out this morning and I still didn't see any snails return. *crosses fingers*

[moliken]

i check mine 2 hrs after l/out and 2-3 before they come on, every day. but i don't take them out and scrub more than once a week, prolly like 10 days. but this is 5 weeks no bstrds, so i'm further along. i had them a long time ago, thought i got ridda them after a month of not seeing them, but i still had them. i did the process right the second time--2-3 months no snails, then i feel safe.i went a loong time free, but accidentally introduced them again through a friend's infected tank.

[Grasshopper23]

I had a problem with these buggers on my Turbo Snails. I think they are the same right?

They killed a few snails and I had to deal with the arduous task of picking them off every few days at night. Now I think I only have two Turbos left down from ~6-8. Occasionally I find a pyramidal snail so I know they are not completely gone.

I have Astrea Snails and they don't seem to feed on them. Will these snails definitely go for a clam. I was just about to get one but this could hold things up.

I also bought a mystery wrasse to help contain this problem. I saw no evidence that he ever snacked on these pesky snails.

[ange062]

I have read there are two different types each of which are specific in what they attack. Meaning one type only eats snails and the other only clams.

[moliken]

if they are on turbos, they probably are not the pyrams, but rissoids. are they really small, cause pyrams are about the size of a grain of rice, while the rissoids ive seen on other snails are like a grain of sand. that's not the way to positively id them, but generally each are predators of different things.

[Agioniko]

Great thread. Does anyone know the life cycle of pyramids? How long after they have hatched can they lay eggs

[moliken]

120 days, i believe

[ange062]

Found a couple more snails today and an egg sack, did another scrub down. The battle continues...

[moliken]

where was the egg mass? in the scutes or underneath the clam? u r at day 1 again ya know

[ange062]

where was the egg mass? in the scutes or underneath the clam? u r at day 1 again ya know

I think thats what it was anyway, in the scutes. And yeah, I know the battle is far from over... :(

The derasa and maxima are still isolated from the problem. Looking into ways to tupperware isolate everything, I may have to get creative...

[moliken]

ive never had to deal w/egg masses, but i did read that they are freq'ly in the scutes.

[cfmx]

i check mine 2 hrs after l/out and 2-3 before they come on, every day. but i don't take them out and scrub more than once a week, prolly like 10 days. but this is 5 weeks no bstrds, so i'm further along. i had them a long time ago, thought i got ridda them after a month of not seeing them, but i still had them. i did the process right the second time--2-3 months no snails, then i feel safe.i went a loong time free, but accidentally introduced them again through a friend's infected tank.

Can I ask what you brought into you tank that infected it (coral, another clam...)?

[cfmx]

if they are on turbos, they probably are not the pyrams, but rissoids. are they really small, cause pyrams are about the size of a grain of rice, while the rissoids ive seen on other snails are like a grain of sand. that's not the way to positively id them, but generally each are predators of different things.

We have had pyrams on turbo snails when we removed our clams for a while. I use to have to pick them off the snails as well. They where the size of rice. Very easy to see when the snail was on the glass.

[moliken]

were they harming the turbos??

[ange062]

Can I ask what you brought into you tank that infected it (coral, another clam...)?

I'm not really sure to be honest. The crocea that is infected has been in the tank for nearly a year. The maxima and derasa which don't show any sign of infection thus far were added back in October. Given those timeframes, I'm inclined to think they didn't come on the clams but rather a snail or coral that was added more recently. No way to be sure though...

[moliken]

my guess'd be a snail. many pyrams will feed on any gastropod if tridacs are unavailable,

[Jcohen9999]

Unfortunately, you are out numbered. I finally killed all mine off when I bombed for red flatworms...along with all the other beneficial inverts in my tank ( but that is another thread).

Once they were done with my clams they went after my snails with a vengeance. Check out this pics in this post: http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showpost.php?p=14139379&postcount=317

Keep at it though maybe you'll have better luck than I.

Jeff

[ange062]

Unfortunately, you are out numbered. I finally killed all mine off when I bombed for red flatworms...along with all the other beneficial inverts in my tank ( but that is another thread).

Once they were done with my clams they went after my snails with a vengeance. Check out this pics in this post: http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showpost.php?p=14139379&postcount=317

Keep at it though maybe you'll have better luck than I.

Jeff

Wow, your infestation looked pretty bad! Luckily, mine so far has stayed contained to a few snails a week on only one of my clams. I have done thorough checks of my other two clams as well as a sampling of my snails and haven't seen anything besides the two separate sightings (followed by cleanings) on my crocea.

[Jcohen9999]

Yeah...it sucked. And I didn't know what caused my clams to die (I thought it was a light bulb issue) so I bought yet another clam after the two I had died...just to add insult to injury.

I'm free of them now though as I have a derasa that seems to be doing really well...except when my clown shower it with sand of course.

Good luck with your snail hunting.

Jeff

[ange062]

Yeah...it sucked. And I didn't know what caused my clams to die (I thought it was a light bulb issue) so I bought yet another clam after the two I had died...just to add insult to injury.

I'm free of them now though as I have a derasa that seems to be doing really well...except when my clown shower it with sand of course.

Good luck with your snail hunting.

Jeff

Dang, bummer, but glad you figured it out and can now keep clams again! Hopefully I am in an uphill battle!

I've recently run into AEFW's attacking a couple of my prized SPS colonies, so fed up with the pests in the tank at this point. Will definitely be looking into a QT tank for ALL new adds (including CUC) as well as dipping all new corals from now on. These are battles I'd rather fight only once... Live and learn right? :)

[ange062]

Been snail free since the last scrubdown *fingers crossed*

[moliken]

i found 3 of the fckerz. so instead of week 6, i am on day 3.

[ange062]

i found 3 of the fckerz. so instead of week 6, i am on day 3.

Ahhh man, that sucks!! Sorry to hear it...:furious:

I'm only 10 days since the last sighting, so far from out of the woods...

[ange062]

Still snail free, hopefully I dont jinx it!

[moliken]

week 1 is done

[ange062]

week 1 is done

22-days for me, good luck brutha!! Wish me some too! :)

[moliken]

absolutely, best of luck. i think the critical areas are isolation and sand replacement w/every scrub. i was negligent on sand replacing and that set my 5 weeks of work back to day 1. throw the sand AWAY!

[Apon]

if you can, try removing the sand, washing it and let it dry out for 2 weeks. then it should be like new dead sand again later for use.

[ange062]

33-days snail free *fingers crossed*

[moliken]

33-days snail free *fingers crossed*
great going.

[Agioniko]

Great photos. Thanks for sharing

[ange062]

Now well over 2.5-mo1!! Can't wait to find a couple small super sweet looking clams!! I'm looking for a black/gold or black/white maxi plus a green/black one.

Found a few on LA but they keep selling before I get a chance to purchase :(

[moliken]

i am clear also. personally, i would not trust LA/DD.heard some negatives, plus the clams ive gotten from there look nothing like the exaggerated overcolored pics they show. they are very good on their guarantee, though. dr mac. pacific east. or coral props. those'd be my choices.

[ange062]

i am clear also. personally, i would not trust LA/DD.heard some negatives, plus the clams ive gotten from there look nothing like the exaggerated overcolored pics they show. they are very good on their guarantee, though. dr mac. pacific east. or coral props. those'd be my choices.

Yeah, I have head some things about LA/DD also, but their guarantee is pretty awesome and the people that I know have experienced issues they have always been quickly and completely resolved. Their prices are HIGH for nice clams though.

I love the pacific east stuff, but they are all >5". I know it's weird, but I am looking for <3" clams due to my limited space, a 5" would take up WAY too much real estate. I just sent them an email to see if they have any smaller ones that they don't list on their site.

[moliken]

insofar as gua i have had to use the guarantee from both co's.rantees ladd is credit, vivid aquarium is refund. same 2 weeks, though. as stated i also feel la/dd's colors are not true, as far off as from anyone i ever got clams from, but that's just my experience.

[ange062]

insofar as gua i have had to use the guarantee from both co's.rantees ladd is credit, vivid aquarium is refund. same 2 weeks, though. as stated i also feel la/dd's colors are not true, as far off as from anyone i ever got clams from, but that's just my experience.

I got a response from PEA, Tahitian law prohibits export of clams under 4" so they only have larger specimens. They are working on getting an aquaculture farm setup there to allow export of smaller specimens (and less impact on natural habitat), both good things so really looking forward to it. Don't think it will be anytime soon unfortunately.

Until then I guess I'm stuck with two clams unless I get lucky enough to find a real stunner from ORA and snag it up in time. Bummer...

Then again, I guess I could just upgrade my tank! :)

[Beenalongtime79]

By the way, how do you avoid introducing pyramid snails from a clam from a store. Is there some dip that you can place the clam in prior to introduction in the tank.

Also, I do have pyramid snails and they do seem to hang out on the mantle of my crocea, but after a few weeks of constant scrubbing and having them show up over and over again, I gave up and just thought the clam would eventually succumb to the infestation, but it hasn't and the snails remain, but the crocea continues to grow.... maybe slower than it would have, but they really haven't killed the clam. Infestation was first noticed 1.5 years ago and the clam is growing. Could it be possible the clam has developed somewhat of a resistance to the constant predation?

Back to the wrasse question, anybody have luck with a yellow coris wrasse?

[moliken]

maybe they aren't really pyrams, rufio. a few weeks anyway will not be enough to interrupt the life cycle. that takes about 2-3 months done properly. you didn't throw away bad sand, i'll bet. no immunity from pyrams, sorry. no on coris wrasses either. awake at different times. a pic of some snails might help id them.

[Beenalongtime79]

They are definitely pyramids as I found them sucking on the mantle of the clam and I have scraped off tiny, tiny egg sacks.

[ange062]

As moliken stated, diligence over months (not weeks) as well as isolation from the sand bed are key. I had good luck with molikens help as documented in this thread.

The key to keeping any pest out of your tank is to quarantine before introduction, watch for signs and treat for them in the QT. This isnt feasible for many of us (including myself) so Ive been through plenty of battles with coral and clam pests :(

I am a huge beleiver in freshwater dips for clams, they have helped me greatly over the years with my clams. That would be the only "dip" I would suggest, you shouldnt mess with coral dips.

[Beenalongtime79]

As moliken stated, diligence over months (not weeks) as well as isolation from the sand bed are key. I had good luck with molikens help as documented in this thread.

The key to keeping any pest out of your tank is to quarantine before introduction, watch for signs and treat for them in the QT. This isnt feasible for many of us (including myself) so Ive been through plenty of battles with coral and clam pests :(

I am a huge beleiver in freshwater dips for clams, they have helped me greatly over the years with my clams. That would be the only "dip" I would suggest, you shouldnt mess with coral dips.

I see, so how long in the freshwater and what is the salinity?

Cheers,
John

[ange062]

I see, so how long in the freshwater and what is the salinity?

Cheers,
John

My process follows:
* RODI water
* Put water in ziplock and float in tank to temp acclimate for 15min
* Use baking soda to match pH, add until matched (note it maxes at some point, so I typically use 3/4-tsp per ziplock to get close to my 8.3ph)
* Pour water in bucket (container etc to size)
* Remove clam and immediately blast with turkey baster around the shell starting with mantle area before it closes up completely
* Repeat every 5min
* 30min max total dip is fine
* Scrub shell with toothbrush at some point during dip to remove all foreign matter
* Introduce clam back into main DT, be sure to "burp" the clam by rotating slowly 360deg

It's saved countless cases of PM on my 3 maximas over the ages. I almost consider it routine maintenance at this point. I've done it at least monthly on certain clams, especially my super sensitive and rare small maximas (under 2").


Salinity is 0 to answer your original question :)

[Beenalongtime79]

My process follows:
* RODI water
* Put water in ziplock and float in tank to temp acclimate for 15min
* Use baking soda to match pH, add until matched (note it maxes at some point, so I typically use 3/4-tsp per ziplock to get close to my 8.3ph)
* Pour water in bucket (container etc to size)
* Remove clam and immediately blast with turkey baster around the shell starting with mantle area before it closes up completely
* Repeat every 5min
* 30min max total dip is fine
* Scrub shell with toothbrush at some point during dip to remove all foreign matter
* Introduce clam back into main DT, be sure to "burp" the clam by rotating slowly 360deg

It's saved countless cases of PM on my 3 maximas over the ages. I almost consider it routine maintenance at this point. I've done it at least monthly on certain clams, especially my super sensitive and rare small maximas (under 2").


Salinity is 0 to answer your original question :)

30 minutes in 0 salinity RO/DI water buffered to pH of 8.3. Am I hearing that right? :eek2:

How did you check pH? That is a super long time, no casualties?

Cheers,
John

[Breadman03]

30 minutes in 0 salinity RO/DI water buffered to pH of 8.3. Am I hearing that right? :eek2:

How did you check pH? That is a super long time, no casualties?

Cheers,
John

The clams on ice at your grocery store are alive. They are pretty resilient.

[Beenalongtime79]

Ang, thanks! I may try that and actually set up a separate tank for the clam and just keep at it so I don't keep disturbing the rest of the inhabitants in the display.

I am a little wary of such a long freshwater dip but since you have had good results, I might try it out.

Cheers,
John

[ange062]

30 minutes in 0 salinity RO/DI water buffered to pH of 8.3. Am I hearing that right? :eek2:

How did you check pH? That is a super long time, no casualties?

Cheers,
John

I've done this with all of my clams MANY MANY times over the years and never had a single issue. And yes, you are hearing that right :) pH check with a normal test kit or probe.

The clams on ice at your grocery store are alive. They are pretty resilient.

Very resilient indeed! :)

Ang, thanks! I may try that and actually set up a separate tank for the clam and just keep at it so I don't keep disturbing the rest of the inhabitants in the display.

I am a little wary of such a long freshwater dip but since you have had good results, I might try it out.

Cheers,
John

You can always try a shorter duration if your are nervous, but 30min is definitely fine (I actually think I went a little over to about 35min when I did a FW dip 2days ago).

[ange062]

Oh, and here is a link to a credible source on FW dips, just to drive the point home, LOL
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/jf/index.php

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_6/volume_6_4/clams.html

[Danienov]

These are what i've been pulling off my snails every day for the past week


I probably find 20 a day

http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u679/dan_novak1/20130313_151226_zps935b8836.jpg

[moliken]

u need to follow better instructions, cause 140 snails should have been reduced to basically a few in a week.you should not be seeing that many a week into it. they spend time in the sand, so i'd bet you are not replacing the sand each time

[Danienov]

I'm not getting these on clams, but on my snails

So I would literally be replacing my entire sandbed, not just what's near a clam

[moliken]

snail snails probably will not affect the clams at all; pyrams are usu species specific. i misinterpreted what u said. you may lose your snail cuc, but clams are most likely completely safe.

[ZephNYC]

I got a response from PEA, Tahitian law prohibits export of clams under 4" so they only have larger specimens. They are working on getting an aquaculture farm setup there to allow export of smaller specimens (and less impact on natural habitat), both good things so really looking forward to it. Don't think it will be anytime soon unfortunately.

Until then I guess I'm stuck with two clams unless I get lucky enough to find a real stunner from ORA and snag it up in time. Bummer...

Then again, I guess I could just upgrade my tank! :)

Im confused because PEA has been carrying smaller farmed Maximas for the last two weeks. I purchased one and they are awesome. But Dr. Mac removed them just yesterday to prepare for the upcoming swap in NYC. The reason Tahitian laws dont allow export on smaller clams is that their export laws are based on them selling as foods, and not ornaments.
Heres a 2 incher I got from PEA two weeks ago. White and gold with a hint of blue.
http://imageshack.us/a/img20/2773/dsc1266ph.jpg

[DiscusHeckel]

My process follows:
* RODI water
* Put water in ziplock and float in tank to temp acclimate for 15min
* Use baking soda to match pH, add until matched (note it maxes at some point, so I typically use 3/4-tsp per ziplock to get close to my 8.3ph)
* Pour water in bucket (container etc to size)
* Remove clam and immediately blast with turkey baster around the shell starting with mantle area before it closes up completely
* Repeat every 5min
* 30min max total dip is fine
* Scrub shell with toothbrush at some point during dip to remove all foreign matter
* Introduce clam back into main DT, be sure to "burp" the clam by rotating slowly 360deg

It's saved countless cases of PM on my 3 maximas over the ages. I almost consider it routine maintenance at this point. I've done it at least monthly on certain clams, especially my super sensitive and rare small maximas (under 2").


Salinity is 0 to answer your original question :)

I followed your instructions in the past. However, my clam closed up as soon as I placed it in RODI and remained closed while it was in the freshwater.

What is your advice in this case?

[ange062]

Im confused because PEA has been carrying smaller farmed Maximas for the last two weeks. I purchased one and they are awesome. But Dr. Mac removed them just yesterday to prepare for the upcoming swap in NYC. The reason Tahitian laws dont allow export on smaller clams is that their export laws are based on them selling as foods, and not ornaments.
Heres a 2 incher I got from PEA two weeks ago. White and gold with a hint of blue.
http://imageshack.us/a/img20/2773/dsc1266ph.jpg

Seeing as how that post was a year old, I can see how things may have changed. Like I mentioned originally they were looking into aquaculture farms, but at the time were only importing wild from Tahiti and Tahitian law (at least at that time) was to not export ornamental clams (tridachna) of less then 4".

As of now, they only have 3 clams listed an all are 5". I'd love to see them bring in more small clams that are suitable for my tank though!! And you picked up a nice specimen!


I followed your instructions in the past. However, my clam closed up as soon as I placed it in RODI and remained closed while it was in the freshwater.

What is your advice in this case?

Very well known that they will close up. It's important to have the turkey baster ready to go to blast them immediately. And afterwards, blasting around the mantle area of the shell will still get enough water in to fix the PM.

[ZephNYC]

Pyramid snails are probably the worst clam problem anyone can have. Often there is simply nothing you can do. Yellow Cory wrasses and malanerus (sp?) definitely do eat them, but like someone said earlier, the snails dominate at night while the wrasses are hiding/sleeping. You have to commit yourself to constant night time inspection and siphoning as many as you can find, and keep it up till you just dont see them anymore. Unfortunately often that day never arrives and you can simply never get them all, and they do proliferate. I have known many a tank that needed to be stripped down and re started from scratch in order to keep clams successfully . BUTit can be done. You just have to be persistant and LUCKY.

[OrionN]

Your really need to quarantine the clam, clean them as you get them. I really scrub them clean on arrival and break all the scuttles on them with a metal spoon, and scrub them with a tooth brush, so that I get all the pest off of them, mainly Aptasia and Pyramid snails (and eggs). Often these are in the tiniest crack on the shell scuttles so break them off is a really good idea. I scrub them in a small tub of tank water, then Quarantine them in my 29 g Aqua Pod under full MH to make sure I did not miss anything.

When you have a large system, this is essential to keep it pest free. The cost of trying to eradicate aptasia, pyramid snails or PMD from my large system is too much. Spend several hundred dollars for a small quarantine tank is a small price to pay.

I second ZephNYC idea of siphoning them out. I use RO tubing with the end tied to a stick so I can direct it easy. Get up at 1AM with flash light and suction them into a gallon container. I just remove the snails and poor the water back in. I use this to get rid of the parasitic snails in my 500 g tank. You have to take all the clams out, break all the scuttles, and scrub them well first to decrease the snail count and remove all the egg mass. Scrub them well, the suction them, you can get your tank parasite free in a few months.

[ZephNYC]

Aslo, for giving a clam its very first fresh water dip, I really like to do just 5 minutes the first time. Kind of like a trial run/warm up for future 30 minute dips. It is not unusual for a sick clam to drop dead after a FWD, and i like to see how they respond to the shorter dip before I commit them to a biggie.