Tang Vs square feet ...and a blog?

[Guillaume]

Hi all,

I read an interesting blog about a year ago on tangs and their square foot requirements. I remind there was proposing rules and examples for some species.

I thought it was Ron Shimek's blog but I can't find back his blog on the topic. I saw the sticky item in the newbee forum but it is not what I'm searching for.

Would you remind this blog? It may not be Shimek's one....

Tx!

[Guillaume]

Anyone?
I did found this but the swimming area/square feet discussion I'm searching for was a on a blog from one specialist...
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/arrested-tang-police-i-refuse-confess

By the way, does someone knows how the exercise on the Newbee thread on tang prefered tank size (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1946007) was done. No source. Just "experience" mentionned. This could be better supported with some discussion, maths, link to studies or articles, etc.

[keywestcoralboy]

I would advise leaving the tang issue alone.., there are too many tangs in little tanks already.. Observe them in the wild and you will know they are not suitable for any tank less than 180 gallons. Some put them in smaller tanks but it is not in the best interest of the specimens. It's like putting a deer in your bed room sure he will live for a while but don't you think he wants to move around a little?

[barjam]

Where did you get 180 for all tangs? Even the tang police on this forum (one of the worst forums for tang police IMHO) won't even go that far.

And each tank is different. I have seen tangs in 180 gallon tanks that are packed to the gills with rocks and tangs in 120 gallon tanks with low amounts of rocks.

I feel the list below is pretty good.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1946079

[keywestcoralboy]

Your previous post said support with discussion so I did.. A 180 is not big it's a 6 footer and yeah maybe a pacific tang in something smaller but you obviously haven't seen how big they get they get huge.. Like my buddy's 10" hippo and 8" sailfin they would do terrible in a little 120 they couldn't even turn around you must acknowledge the full grown size of the fish..

[keywestcoralboy]

Not to mention, live aquaria the people selling the tangs suggest a bare minimum of 180gallins for most of their tangs and a absolute minimum of 135 for the smallest tangs..

[ezerasurfr]

Some put them in smaller tanks but it is not in the best interest of the specimens. It's like putting a deer in your bed room sure he will live for a while but don't you think he wants to move around a little?


Fish and mammals are nothing alike, nor can the comparison be even remotely accurate. Rating a fish's "happiness" is ridiculous. Stress and well-being must be measured differently. There is no need to anthropomorphize fish by making them "happy". My fish have never smiled at me or told me how happy they were in their home. Health and well-being is measured according to success rates. And the overall consensus, is that these fish do better in larger tanks. This does not mean that individual specimens cannot fare in smaller tanks - just better success rates in larger footprint tanks due to the nature of the species.


And you should recheck liveaquaria, not all tangs have a minimum recommended tank size of 135 gallons. This is just a wrong statement.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+43+392&pcatid=392

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+43+345&pcatid=345

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+43+2993&pcatid=2993

[Matt Dean]

Well, I have 7-6" tangs in a 90 gallon and they are VERy happy! LOL! JUST KIDDING:headwally:

I do have a problem with any one sentence answer for this subject. 180 gallons/6 feet minimum, etc. aA 6 foot long 12 inch wide tank is no where as good as a 5 foot by 2 foot tank, IMHO.

Also, there is the question of water flow, a 5X2 tank with tons of strong water flow is, again IMHO, going to be healthier than an 8 X 1 tank with very little flow.

add to that the question of filtration to handle bio load, space that rock work takes up - ie: a 10 foot tank with tons of rock and little room for the fish to swim - water quality, compatible tank mates. and so on and so on.

We really need to take ALL the variables in to consideration. I will put my 5 X 2 tank against most 6 or 7 foot tanks any day because of my filtration, flow and rock work.

Whew! I better step down from my soap box. The air is getting a little thin up here. :ape:

[TjwBlake]

Really? going down another one of these thread paths again?
Just do a search on tangs and you will be able to follow all the fighting you want, note that most were closed at some point by a mod..

[keywestcoralboy]

Note that it is a minimum tank size on LA, and yes there are 3 tangs that are possibly acceptable down to 70 gallons until they fully grow. Also any retailer has a tendency to make their product availabe to a larger portion of the hobby by stating they can live in undersized tanks so I guess I will ignore common sense and responsible reef keeping and go along with y'all instead of personal experience. Why not just get the right sized tank or the right livestock.. I don't really care what lame argument you have to try and justify something any hobbiest worth there salt already knows

[keywestcoralboy]

Btw good point matt there are many variables.. Shape being a big one

[crankbait]

Why do these threads not get old to me? Haha

[ezerasurfr]

Note that it is a minimum tank size on LA, and yes there are 3 tangs that are possibly acceptable down to 70 gallons until they fully grow. Also any retailer has a tendency to make their product availabe to a larger portion of the hobby by stating they can live in undersized tanks so I guess I will ignore common sense and responsible reef keeping and go along with y'all instead of personal experience. Why not just get the right sized tank or the right livestock.. I don't really care what lame argument you have to try and justify something any hobbiest worth there salt already knows

Easy cowboy. I'm only correcting what YOU said. Let's take a look...

Not to mention, live aquaria the people selling the tangs suggest a bare minimum of 180gallins for most of their tangs and a absolute minimum of 135 for the smallest tangs..


YOU were talking about LA. YOU said LA had a bare minimum of 180 for most and an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of 135 for the SMALLEST tangs....

This is an incorrect statement. LA has no absolute minimum. They have a recommended minimum. Just like all retailers. Any retailer will sell you whatever you want no questions.

[keywestcoralboy]

Exactly I'm not really sweating it. It just grinds the gears when I go to lfs store and I see a orange shoulder in a cube designed for fire fish and some yahoo buys it for his 29 biocube.. I'm just over the purposefully inflammatory rc threads on tangs and honestly I just looked at the like top 10 tangs on la and didn't go thru every page. So my bad, but really a 6 foot tank is a good start for all the not little guys

[barjam]

Edit: Oops saw he was already corrected no reason to pile on.

[Khemul]

Well, I have 7-6" tangs in a 90 gallon and they are VERy happy! LOL! JUST KIDDING:headwally:

I do have a problem with any one sentence answer for this subject. 180 gallons/6 feet minimum, etc. aA 6 foot long 12 inch wide tank is no where as good as a 5 foot by 2 foot tank, IMHO.

Also, there is the question of water flow, a 5X2 tank with tons of strong water flow is, again IMHO, going to be healthier than an 8 X 1 tank with very little flow.

add to that the question of filtration to handle bio load, space that rock work takes up - ie: a 10 foot tank with tons of rock and little room for the fish to swim - water quality, compatible tank mates. and so on and so on.

We really need to take ALL the variables in to consideration. I will put my 5 X 2 tank against most 6 or 7 foot tanks any day because of my filtration, flow and rock work.

Whew! I better step down from my soap box. The air is getting a little thin up here. :ape:

A 180 is roughly 6' x 2' x 2'.
Even a 125 is 6' x 1.5' x 2'.

[Curious George]

"anthropomorphize"?

Whoa! I don't think I could ever get away with that written or spoken.

[Matt Dean]

A 180 is roughly 6' x 2' x 2'.
Even a 125 is 6' x 1.5' x 2'.

And....you missed the point altogether. Thus, illustrating my point in the process. hehe:wildone:

[ezerasurfr]

ah, the lyrical poet I am. :D

[Khemul]

And....you missed the point altogether. Thus, illustrating my point in the process. hehe:wildone:

I understand your point.

I was more commenting on your "A 6 foot long 12 inch wide tank is no where as good as a 5 foot by 2 foot tank, IMHO" piece. The normal 6' tanks are 18" and 24". All things being equal a 5 x 2 tank is never going to be as good as a 6 x 2. It could even be argued that 5 x 2 tank is never going to be as good as a 6 x 1.5 for fish that like swimming in straight lines. Sure if you make the 5 x 2 much better and make the 6 x 2 or 6 x 1.5 worse in these hypothetical situations then it is going to be better, but that is just comparing two less then ideal situations.


Filtration and rockwork is important. But there is a type of arrogance in the saltwater word when it comes to filtration. Everyone believes their filtration setup is superior to the norm and makes their tank so much better. Sometimes it is true. Oftentimes it isn't. More often it is simply a justification.

[Guillaume]

Thanks all for the comments and discussion.
I would leave aside what is minimum, good or bad for that tang or another. Many thread have already done a tour of the question and this is a sensitive one for some people.:hammer:

My original question was not about what should be good or not for the X Tang but: does anyone knows about any minimum solid literrature, report on a study that would have looked at the question?

Experience of people who have set the guidelines we find on the Newbee forum or on Liveaquaria site is surely valuable, but in the scientific field, no one seams having published any documented work.:uhoh2:

[Playa-1]

Experience of people who have set the guidelines we find on the Newbee forum or on Liveaquaria site is surely valuable, but in the scientific field, no one seams having published any documented work.

Maybe you will have to spearhead that project ;)

[ezerasurfr]

Because there is no scientific data that tells if a fish is happy in a specific tank size. Tank size issues are an experience only collaboration mostly from hobbyists. Again, the recommendations have to do with success rates based on hobbyist experience and data collected on surgeonfish in the wild.

Surgeonfish on the reef are territorial, and claim a significant amount of the reef and "patrol" it grazing on algae all day. Mimicking this environment to the best of the hobbyist abilities has proven to be a successful approach in keeping these fish in captivity. The smaller the tank, the less room for the fish to keep as territory the more stressful this can be to these types of fish (on a general behavioral basis taken from observation in the wild). This does not apply to individual specimens, thus why there are "recommended" minimum tank sizes. People have successfully kept tangs in small tanks, but this is the exception, not the rule. There have also been people who have tried to keep tangs in larger tanks, but have failed.

[travisw30]

Don't ever get in a fight with a fireman! They are always right somehow! Hahaa

[Guillaume]

Maybe you will have to spearhead that project ;)

Right!
But before that I will have to remove the info on my signature to not receive tomatos...;)

[Guillaume]

Done :lol:

[pompeyjohn]

My suggestion would be to contact LA and ask them what scientific basis they are using. They may be able to point you to an academic study.

[keywestcoralboy]

The truth is only the sickest tanks around can only make a meager attempt to recreate a fraction of the enviromental stimulus a tang would receive in the wild. A tank that is too small for movement and specimin exploration is bound to create stressors in the captive enviroment leading to disease amd low instances of long term success, in my experience. Now a small tang can be captured start captive life in a 65 once it's about to change moved to a 150 then released where it was captured.

[Guillaume]

My suggestion would be to contact LA and ask them what scientific basis they are using. They may be able to point you to an academic study.

Good point. Hoping they can have some documented basis.

The truth is only the sickest tanks around can only make a meager attempt to recreate a fraction of the enviromental stimulus a tang would receive in the wild. A tank that is too small for movement and specimin exploration is bound to create stressors in the captive enviroment leading to disease amd low instances of long term success, in my experience. Now a small tang can be captured start captive life in a 65 once it's about to change moved to a 150 then released where it was captured.

Thanks keywestcoralboy for your contribution. I will ensure to not stress any fish in my tank. Corals too ... :)