Swim bladder problem? / Toxic tank Syndrome?

[doctooth]

If anyone has experienced these problems, can you help ? I wrote earlier about my 18 day old babies staying on the bottom, read the responses and researched the web, reread Wilkerson's book again and again... It sounded like this was fairly normal behavior, but...Thurs am is an early day for the office and I saw most of the babies down. I did not have time to do much.I added Amquel plus and fresh salt water. I removed 80 babies Thurs afternoon. I have done various things Fri & today but I think the last thirty or so are suffering too much and I am ready to euthanize them(freezer). Any thoughts??
I have a large 2nd hatch, 10 days old and starting to get head stripes, so I am worried about them and trying to figure out something to save them from the same fate.
Thanks.

PS they are 31 days old now.

[ClownfishSushi]

Hey, there! Always nice to meet a fellow breeder.

I need a lot more information before I can offer you some advice. When you say your "2nd" batch... does that mean it's the 2nd time your clowns have laid or just the 2nd time you've attempted to collect? The first 5-6 spawns are generally considered non-viable, that's why I ask.

I'd need to know what your tank cleaning schedule is at 18 days, exactly what larva type tank you are using and what food you have them on.

Generally speaking, if you lose more than handful of juveniles at once, something has gone wrong and there is nothing you can do to recover. Adding chemicals just makes it worse. Flush the fry, sterilize the tank and get ready to try again!

[doctooth]

Hey, there! Always nice to meet a fellow breeder.

I need a lot more information before I can offer you some advice. When you say your "2nd" batch... does that mean it's the 2nd time your clowns have laid or just the 2nd time you've attempted to collect? The first 5-6 spawns are generally considered non-viable, that's why I ask.

I'd need to know what your tank cleaning schedule is at 18 days, exactly what larva type tank you are using and what food you have them on.

Generally speaking, if you lose more than handful of juveniles at once, something has gone wrong and there is nothing you can do to recover. Adding chemicals just makes it worse. Flush the fry, sterilize the tank and get ready to try again!

Thanks for the reply, these babies are true perc's, parents have been laying for over a year, it is not the first time I have tried, just the first time I have passed meta. (it seems like something always went wrong before, rots crashed, ammonia spike etc). 18 days is when I noticed something different, (previous post was about them staying at the bottom, grouped into the corners). Most people and by rereading, this seemed like 'normal' behavior for clowns. But as time passed I figured something was wrong.

At day 18 I had a sponge filter in place (rinsed out every 2-3 days), and siphoned the bottom at night, testing for ammonia morning and night, nitrate 2-3 times/week, salinity daily (adding RO/DI as needed) keeping at .022, water changes every other day (started using water from the brood stock tank then switch to fresh salt (at least 3 days old). Of course I used an air stone in the tank, 10 gal, 3/4 full.

Introduced bbs day 5, intermittent with Oto B-1, by day 18 had intoduced small amout of Oto C-1, but mainly bbs, continued until 28-29th day. I am sure the ate some Oto, but mainly bbs.

They already had 3rd stripe and were growing.I have already frozen them.

"2nd batch" means 11 days old fry with head stripe. I am just trying to figure out if I did something wrong or if it was just one of those things.

I have a massive batch of Maroon eggs, laid Fri.

Thanks again.

[billsreef]

The most common problems are high ammonia and bacterial/protozoal problems due to uneaten food and waste accumulating in the tank. Large water changes and bottom cleaning will fix the causes, with the addition of medications sometimes needed in the case of bacterial and protozoal issues.

[ClownfishSushi]

What he said.

I'm willing to share with you my secret weapon. I guarantee you if you try it you will have success.

Forget all the water changes and water testing.

Set up a slow drip line. Drip water from the broodstock/reef tank into the fry tank at a rate of about 1 drop per second. Set up a second drip line that drips water out of the fry tank into the broodstock/reef sump. Enjoy the results.

As long as your broodstock/reef tank is healthy, your fry tank will be healthy. This does not elimnate the need for daily bottom scrapings and siphoning but it will make your water parameters rock solid throughout the day.

I'd also suggest skipping the brine shrimp. Sounds crazy, right? Rotifers for 3 full weeks. 3 times a day at first, only once a day by day 21-25 and only as a last chance food for any juveniles that are dragging behind. Otohime A introduced a few days before meta. Golden Pearls and Freeze Dried Cyclops-eeze sometime around the 3rd week. Overlap all foods.

The balling behavior is perfectly normal.

[doctooth]

The most common problems are high ammonia and bacterial/protozoal problems due to uneaten food and waste accumulating in the tank. Large water changes and bottom cleaning will fix the causes, with the addition of medications sometimes needed in the case of bacterial and protozoal issues.

Thanks Bill.

[doctooth]

What he said.

I'm willing to share with you my secret weapon. I guarantee you if you try it you will have success.

Forget all the water changes and water testing.

Set up a slow drip line. Drip water from the broodstock/reef tank into the fry tank at a rate of about 1 drop per second. Set up a second drip line that drips water out of the fry tank into the broodstock/reef sump. Enjoy the results.

As long as your broodstock/reef tank is healthy, your fry tank will be healthy. This does not elimnate the need for daily bottom scrapings and siphoning but it will make your water parameters rock solid throughout the day.

I'd also suggest skipping the brine shrimp. Sounds crazy, right? Rotifers for 3 full weeks. 3 times a day at first, only once a day by day 21-25 and only as a last chance food for any juveniles that are dragging behind. Otohime A introduced a few days before meta. Golden Pearls and Freeze Dried Cyclops-eeze sometime around the 3rd week. Overlap all foods.

The balling behavior is perfectly normal.
Thanks, that would not work for me. I have six brood stock tanks and with heavy feeding the water would not up to snuff for the fry. I will have separate systems in time.

[ClownfishSushi]

Thanks, that would not work for me. I have six brood stock tanks and with heavy feeding the water would not up to snuff for the fry. I will have separate systems in time.

Even Joyce says in her book that consistency is more important than the parameters themselves, grasshopper. ;)

Give it a shot. You might be surprised.

[Jaypilot]

Even Joyce says in her book that consistency is more important than the parameters themselves, grasshopper. ;)

Give it a shot. You might be surprised.

Not to hijack someone else thread but your post brought up a thought. I know most people use about 5 gallons of tank water, or maybe a little more to use in their fry tank, so this may not work. But would it be possible to have maybe a 10g tank along with about a 20 or 30g sump full of live rock and maybe a protein skimmer or something in order to have stable water.

you would have to have a very slow drain from the 10g tank so that you don't suck any of the fry down. You may even have to have a small devider in the tank as well (maybe 5 or 600 microns) so you can keep the fry and rots in place. depending on the how slow the water flow is you may need a pump inside the sump just to keep the water moving.

just a thought, I don't want to reinvent the wheel but water quality seems to be the most important. with that being said we all know that water volume helps with stability greatly.

Any thoughts on this..

PS, I am not a breeder but I am a wanabe breeder. Right now I currently have 6 bangaii cardinals that I'm still trying to pair up, and pair of true perks and a pair of ORA pearl eyed clarkiis

[ClownfishSushi]

Not to hijack someone else thread but your post brought up a thought. I know most people use about 5 gallons of tank water, or maybe a little more to use in their fry tank, so this may not work. But would it be possible to have maybe a 10g tank along with about a 20 or 30g sump full of live rock and maybe a protein skimmer or something in order to have stable water.

Anything is possible! Of course a drip line is just easier, IMO.


you would have to have a very slow drain from the 10g tank so that you don't suck any of the fry down. You may even have to have a small devider in the tank as well (maybe 5 or 600 microns) so you can keep the fry and rots in place. depending on the how slow the water flow is you may need a pump inside the sump just to keep the water moving.

Again, a lot of work that can be achieved with a simple drip line. Here's a video I took of mine that can probably demonstrate the concept better: http://youtu.be/uLVDyjDNtOQ

just a thought, I don't want to reinvent the wheel but water quality seems to be the most important. with that being said we all know that water volume helps with stability greatly.

Any thoughts on this..

Water quality isn't as much of an issue as water stability. The fry can tolerate some nitrates. What they can't tolerate is swings in salinity, temperature, ammonia... stuff like that. This is where the beauty of my slow-drip fry tank shines.

PS, I am not a breeder but I am a wanabe breeder. Right now I currently have 6 bangaii cardinals that I'm still trying to pair up, and pair of true perks and a pair of ORA pearl eyed clarkiis Just make sure your percs and clarkiis can't see each other. They may consider the presence of the other species an intrusion into their established territory (which can extend beyond the glass of the tank.) And make sure you start a thread when you begin!

[doctooth]

Thanks Jaypilot, anything is possible

[doctooth]

Nice video Jason, Thanks for your thoughts. Trying harder on the new juvies

[ClownfishSushi]

Nice video Jason, Thanks for your thoughts. Trying harder on the new juvies

That's the spirit! I literally wiped 7 batches in a row while I got the hang of it. Take good notes, don't get discouraged!

[jbax]

like clownfishsushi, i drip all water back into my nursery tanks. when i first started raising clowns, i followed wilkersons book on the schedule of water changes. although i do not co-culture so rarely have issues with ammonia in the fry tank. i have more issues with ammonia in rotifer buckets. every day i pour a cap full of prime in each 5g bucket.

[Jaypilot]

ClownfishSushi: Ya this tank is set up just for breeding. It has dividers in the tank that are black so that the fish can't see each other. If it works out I will start my own thread logging my achievements/failers.

Doctooth: good luck with your fry as well. I am enjoying this thread and I have learned a lot from it, thanks

[Jaypilot]

ClownfishSuchi: Thanks for the video. What are you using to go from the tank to the sump. Are you just using gravity or do you have a small aqua lift pump.

[doctooth]

like clownfishsushi, i drip all water back into my nursery tanks. when i first started raising clowns, i followed wilkersons book on the schedule of water changes. although i do not co-culture so rarely have issues with ammonia in the fry tank. i have more issues with ammonia in rotifer buckets. every day i pour a cap full of prime in each 5g bucket.

"prime"? I use Amquel Plus, is it about the same?

[ClownfishSushi]

ClownfishSuchi: Thanks for the video. What are you using to go from the tank to the sump. Are you just using gravity or do you have a small aqua lift pump.

I just run a gravity siphon. It's the exact same principle that I use to drip water in.

Gravity siphons function adequately as long as you can setup your fry tank lower than the broodstock's waterline but higher than the sump's water line. I also flush the airlines and the valves about once a week because they will eventually get gunked up with phyto and rotifers.

A neat little formula I came up with is this:

1 drop per second equates to approximately 1 gallon per day.

I typically shoot for about 2 drops per second. That changes 2 gallons of fry tank water per day. It takes a little time to dial in the drip rates coming in and going out, but even if you are off by as much as 1 drop per second you're only talking about moving the water line by 1 gallon in either direction over the course of an entire day. The lines do require daily adjustments but it's not as bad as dialing in a skimmer for the first time.

[ClownfishSushi]

like clownfishsushi, i drip all water back into my nursery tanks. when i first started raising clowns, i followed wilkersons book on the schedule of water changes. although i do not co-culture so rarely have issues with ammonia in the fry tank. i have more issues with ammonia in rotifer buckets. every day i pour a cap full of prime in each 5g bucket.

Reed makes a product that is enriched phyto plus an ammonia blocker. I haven't bothered testing my rotifer cultures for months!

[alaska clowns]

Thanks for all the great ideas :)

Jason, what SG do you keep your broodstock tank and fry tank at?

doctooth, sorry about your loss :( Hope your 2nd hatch it doing better!

[ClownfishSushi]

Thanks for all the great ideas :)

Jason, what SG do you keep your broodstock tank and fry tank at?

doctooth, sorry about your loss :( Hope your 2nd hatch it doing better!

My broodstock tank is connected to my fry tank through a drip line so they share the same water parameters. I run both at 1.022.

[doctooth]

Thanks for all the great ideas :)

Jason, what SG do you keep your broodstock tank and fry tank at?

doctooth, sorry about your loss :( Hope your 2nd hatch it doing better!
Thanks alaska clowns, things seem ok for now, 2nd stripe is showing on some.
I have been reading your own posts, thanks for taking time to look here.