Will Cupramine effectively "clean" my icked equipment?

[SueAndHerZoo]

I have a 20 gallon QT set up and running with a powerhead, heater, and Fluval canister. The last two fish I put in there showed signs of ick (or velvet?) and died within a week. I now want to turn that set up into a hospital tank because I just saw signs of something in one of my display tanks. Do I have to tear apart the Fluval and sterilize it before I can use it with the cupramine or will the cupramine take care of the ick (or velvet) on the hardware? The reason I hesitate to totally clean the Fluval is because I want to utilize the good bacteria that's in there already.

Your thoughts?
Sue

[MrTuskfish]

Cupramine should kill free-swimming ich wherever it is.

[tmz]

It won't kill the cysts that may be on the surfaces of the tank or equipment though ; so, the cupramine would need to be used continuously.That may be a problem if other meds you may need are contraindicated with copper. Drying it thoroughly will sterilize it.

[SueAndHerZoo]

I plan on using the Cupramine in the hospital tank for the recommended 4 weeks so hopefully any ich or velvet, regardless of what stage in their lifecycle, should get eradicated within that 4 weeks.

Thanks for the feedback. Not looking forward to this process but needs to be done. :( Hopefully will tear apart the 92 gallon this weekend to catch all the fish and start the treatment. Then I get to re-aquascape the 92 and let it sit for 9 weeks. HATE aquascaping!
Sue

[MrTuskfish]

I plan on using the Cupramine in the hospital tank for the recommended 4 weeks so hopefully any ich or velvet, regardless of what stage in their lifecycle, should get eradicated within that 4 weeks.

Thanks for the feedback. Not looking forward to this process but needs to be done. :( Hopefully will tear apart the 92 gallon this weekend to catch all the fish and start the treatment. Then I get to re-aquascape the 92 and let it sit for 9 weeks. HATE aquascaping!
Sue

Good plan! then, use a QT on all new fish and never have to through this again.

[SueAndHerZoo]

Good plan! then, use a QT on all new fish and never have to through this again.

I so wish people wouldn't have to lose fish to ick before they start believing in a QT tank. I'm one of the guilty ones..... figured since I'd always been "lucky" that it would never happen to me. I'm paying big time now and have learned my lesson and know there's no one to blame but myself.

Another question if I may: I'm thinking a 20 gallon hospital tank is going to be cramped and will also be very hard to keep at acceptable ammonia levels. My three display tanks are a 92 gallon corner (with ick) a 46 gallon bowfront (clean so far) and a 14 gallon biocube. What if I moved all the live rock and coral out of the 46 and stored it in the soon-to-be-fallow 92 and used the 46 gallon as a hospital tank? Would I be able to use it as a display tank again after I'm done with the copper treatment?

Actually, now that I've said that outloud it's not going to work.... that would mean exposing the un-sick fish in the 46 to ick and treating them with copper needlessly \ AND I doubt the fish in the 92 and 46 would get along. There is no easy way to do this. :(
Sue

[JEC11718]

borrow or beg A bigger ht tank, if you have to, buy a used one on cl for cheap....put your fish in, meds, then sell ht tank or keep for next qt

[SueAndHerZoo]

Yeah, I suppose, I just have so many tanks, cages, habitats, etc. stacked in rooms, basement, sheds, etc. that I shudder at the thought of buying another, especially when I have four tanks running already. Hate the thought of tearing down the current QT, storing it just to set up another.

The plan is to do it all this weekend so I've got a few more days to come up with a game plan. I guess I better give up on finding an "easy" solution and just accept my pennance for not having QT'd all new fish properly.

Wait..... what if I take all the live rock and sand out of the 92 gallon corner (which is where the ick is) and use that as a hospital tank? Then I wouldn't have to leave that tank fallow for 9-10 weeks since the infected tank would be the one being treated with Cupramine for 4-5 weeks. I guess the question now is, will I be able to get all of the Cupramine out of the display tank, sump, plumbing system, etc. when it's time to move the rock and corals back in? Sounds like a question for SeaChem, eh?
Sue

[Fish Bowl]

If you don't mind re-cycling the tank with a cycled filter from a non velvet infected source (or just with a frozen prawn) it might be easier to just drain the whole tank, clean it with bleach/soap(1 to 8 ratio/very light amount),rinsing with warm water to remove residue and then sun drying for about 2 days. That can also be done with the equipment (I would recommend bleach instead in the case of any sponges and so forth.)
I didn't mention a non ich source since ich won't be able to kill a moderately healthy fish right away compared to velvet (Though IF possible a disease free cycled filter would be even better)
That's for your QT tank
Also, anything wet can carry a form of ich and thus, moving your rock out just to copper the tank won't stop your need to go fallow (Unless you dry out your rock which will make it equivalent to base rock in desperate need of curing and essentially life free.)

Hope this helps!

[MrTuskfish]

I guess I've become a QT Nazi. Weird thing; there isn't a decent book on our hobby that doesn't insist that a QT is a necessity, not just something nice to have. Every newbie has to have heard about a QT, haven't they? With learning via internet, "Plug 'N' Play" systems, the total ignorance of many (not all) LFS employees (unlike the "old days"), big-box pet stores, etc; maybe the word isn't getting out. Like so many of us; I knew I should use one, was in a hurry, ended up tearing a tank apart, etc. Never again I keep lots of fish and haven't seen a contagious parasite in any of my DTs for about 30 years. I'm at the point where I agree with Bob Fenner: if you won't use a QT/HT, maybe this isn't the hobby for you. I'm sure not suggesting that everyone without a QT abandon the hobby; but most of the threads on the disease section of our forum would have been solved with a proper QT regimen. Anyone ever notice that "needed equipment'' threads on the "new to the hobby' forum seldom (if ever) include a QT?

[tmz]

When you set up the qt focus on ammonia control anda relatively comfortable space for the inhabitants..
If cupramine is in use as noted any crytocaryon that hatches will perish in the free swimming stage but the filter will need to be dried out when qt is done as cysts have remained viable for as long as 72 days.
Cupramine is an organically bound copper ;the binding ligands may break away at an accelerated rate leaving a toxic level of copper if other medications or water treatments(particularly ammonia detoxifiers) are used with it .

How many fish are in the infected tank? What are they?

BTW, I'd segregate the equipment used for the infected and qt tanks , ie nets, sampling vessels , tubeing, and anything that gets we to avoid moving any mosture from the infected tank to you're non infected tanks.

[coralhound]

I am glad that I found this thread. I am stupid and am now paying the price. I had healthy fish, and added some healthy fish from a club members 40G cube tank that he had for more than a year. I bought his setup and took the inhabitants out so teardown could happen. I put the inhabitants in my exisiting 29G tank. Eveything was well, I purchased a royal gramma from a reputable FS that marks the date of arrival on the tank and tries to keep fish 3 weeks before offering for sale. I bought it and put it right into my display tank.

2 weeks later the Gramma has been dead for a week, the Kole tang just died this morning and the yellow tang is covered in (what i think is ich) white dots all over. The ocellaris clowns dont have the spots but dont look quite as vibrant as usual and azure damsels look fine.

So I have a problem, this weekend was the time to setup the 40G and move everthing over, RBTA and corals and cleaner shrimp all fine. Obviously bringing the water LR and corals over to the 40G will contaminate that tank.

Do I bring all but the fish over and keep the corals rock and inverts in the new 40G for a period of time? I saw an earlier post of 9 weeks? Do I pull the fish out of the 29G and "fallow" the tank in its current state, putting off the 40G?

What do you all keep in your HT or QT tank? I am thinking heater and Power filter? bare bottom, and dose cupermine?

Thanks in advance for any advice

Chris

[coralhound]

Just read some of the sticky's from Steve and see the reason for 9 weeks...

It makes alot of sense.

So 9 weeks in the current 29 and have the 40 lay waiting for water (wife likely not to be happy with empty tank for 9 weeks) or move over to the 40G and wait 9 weeks there?

[SueAndHerZoo]

If you don't mind re-cycling the tank with a cycled filter from a non velvet infected source (or just with a frozen prawn) it might be easier to just drain the whole tank, clean it with bleach/soap(1 to 8 ratio/very light amount),rinsing with warm water to remove residue and then sun drying for about 2 days. That can also be done with the equipment (I would recommend bleach instead in the case of any sponges and so forth.)
I didn't mention a non ich source since ich won't be able to kill a moderately healthy fish right away compared to velvet (Though IF possible a disease free cycled filter would be even better)
That's for your QT tank

You're right, I'm sure. If I'm going to go through all this I may as well do it as "right" as possible. :headwally:

Also, anything wet can carry a form of ich and thus, moving your rock out just to copper the tank won't stop your need to go fallow (Unless you dry out your rock which will make it equivalent to base rock in desperate need of curing and essentially life free.)

Ugh.... you're right. Taking the rock out would mean keeping it in a large container with a heater and powerhead for at least 9 weeks. Not much point in that EXCEPT that at least the HT would be a 92 gallon.

Hope this helps! It ALL helps. Thank you. :)

When you set up the qt focus on ammonia control anda relatively comfortable space for the inhabitants..

Therein lies the problem. A 20 gallon QT/HT is not going to be sufficiently comfortable or easy to keep ammonia low in. Looks like I'm buying a bigger tank. Oh goodie, just what I need - another one in the shed in two months.
If cupramine is in use as noted any crytocaryon that hatches will perish in the free swimming stage but the filter will need to be dried out when qt is done as cysts have remained viable for as long as 72 days. OK, good to know - thank you.

Cupramine is an organically bound copper ;the binding ligands may break away at an accelerated rate leaving a toxic level of copper if other medications or water treatments(particularly ammonia detoxifiers) are used with it . Just one more reason for the HT to be a specific hospital tank and not one of my DT's. I just keep running different options through my mind but it seems the tried and true method is, of course, going to be the best choice.
How many fish are in the infected tank? What are they?

Golden Hawkfish, maroon clown, Filefish, Diamond Goby, Scooter Blenny, Yellow Tang, Squirrel Fish.
BTW, I'd segregate the equipment used for the infected and qt tanks , ie nets, sampling vessels , tubeing, and anything that gets we to avoid moving any mosture from the infected tank to you're non infected tanks. That one is going to be a challenge.... I may have to put bright red stickers on everything that is QT/HT related.

I guess I've become a QT Nazi. Weird thing; there isn't a decent book on our hobby that doesn't insist that a QT is a necessity, not just something nice to have. Every newbie has to have heard about a QT, haven't they? With learning via internet, "Plug 'N' Play" systems, the total ignorance of many (not all) LFS employees (unlike the "old days"), big-box pet stores, etc; maybe the word isn't getting out. Like so many of us; I knew I should use one, was in a hurry, ended up tearing a tank apart, etc. Never again I keep lots of fish and haven't seen a contagious parasite in any of my DTs for about 30 years. I'm at the point where I agree with Bob Fenner: if you won't use a QT/HT, maybe this isn't the hobby for you. I'm sure not suggesting that everyone without a QT abandon the hobby; but most of the threads on the disease section of our forum would have been solved with a proper QT regimen. Anyone ever notice that "needed equipment'' threads on the "new to the hobby' forum seldom (if ever) include a QT?

You're absolutely right and it's not that I hadn't heard about QT'ing. I just used to laugh it off because I was "lucky" for so long. I actually DID set up a QT when I first got into this hobby but found it to be too much of a pain to keep it up and running, most of the time empty, so ended up tearing it down and using the space for another DT. :hmm4:

Any suggestions what I should do with the cleaner shrimp that is currently the only inhabitant in my infected QT tank? If I put him in one of my "clean" displays he might have some trace of ick cysts on him and infect the tank. If I put him in the infected display tank, he'll get eaten by the hawkfish. Can I freshwater dip him or something?

[snorvich]

The cleaner shrimp will not transport cysts. BUT no water can pass from the infected tank to any other tank.

[mwilliams62]

If it was my tank I would strip it down the one infected with ich/velvet use bleach/viniger solution for the tank and equipment then rinse, rinse and rinse till you can no longer smell any oders. Before ever using again for anything. But that is what I would do.

[tmz]

I hope you don't mix bleach and vinegar.

This is what you get:

2HOCl + 2HAc ↔ Cl₂ + 2H₂O + 2Ac^- (Ac : CH₃COO)

bleach + acetic acid(vinegar) = chlorine gas + water + acetic acid

Chlorine gas is toxic:

Chlorine gas is a pulmonary irritant with intermediate water solubility that causes acute damage in the upper and lower respiratory tract. Chlorine gas (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/832336-overview) was first used as a chemical weapon at Ypres, France, in 1915. Of the 70,552 American soldiers poisoned with various gases in World War I, 1843 were exposed to chlorine gas.^[1]

This is the link:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/820779-overview

[SueAndHerZoo]

I hope you don't mix bleach and vinegar.

This is what you get:

2HOCl + 2HAc ↔ Cl₂ + 2H₂O + 2Ac^- (Ac : CH₃COO)

bleach + acetic acid(vinegar) = chlorine gas + water + acetic acid

Chlorine gas is toxic:

Chlorine gas is a pulmonary irritant with intermediate water solubility that causes acute damage in the upper and lower respiratory tract. Chlorine gas (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/832336-overview) was first used as a chemical weapon at Ypres, France, in 1915. Of the 70,552 American soldiers poisoned with various gases in World War I, 1843 were exposed to chlorine gas.^[1]

This is the link:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/820779-overview

Wow! I know you weren't directing this at me but that is fascinating and really important information! You have no idea how often I use diluted bleach and how often I use diluted vinegar for cleaning! I don't mix the two together but I happen to have a spray bottle of each in my cleaning supplies. I had no idea putting the two together would be so dangerous - thank you!
Sue

[tmz]

Golden Hawkfish, maroon clown, Filefish, Diamond Goby, Scooter Blenny, Yellow Tang, Squirrel Fish.

Too many fish fora20 gallon.Rubbermaid or sterlite bins ,wiped with vinegar can be used.
Usingt\ the canister filter and the bio filter from it is ok but the sponges, etc in it will hold some free copper when you are done and it may leach back to the display if used there so need to be discarded. After drying it out to kill any cysts ,wiping down the interior with vinegar and rinsing it should take car of any free copper sticking around.

Qt tanks need a seeded ( cylcled for ammonia biofilter) or large daily water changes ; no need to worry about nitrite or nitrate.
An airstone is helpful if the filter doesn't provide enough oxygenation.
A heater .
Some pvc pipe pieces for hiding and resting places .
Some of your fish need sand. A bowl of it can be used but may adsorb some of the copper .

[tmz]

You are welcome.

I use bleach and vinegar all the time but not together.

Folks use a bleach and water overnight soak for disinfecting tanks and rocks Then they rinse and dry. A second soak in water to which muriatic acid or vinegar is added is then used to dissolve calcium carbonate ,ie a thin top layer of the rock and the coraline from the glass .This process sterilizes ,ie destroys oraniic material and removes metal deposits including phospahte and copper. But it's not done together. Two separate baths and rinses.

[tmz]

BTW bleach and ammonia is worse producing chlorine gas and toxic chlomine vapors and possibly hydrazine which is highly unstable and flamable. It is used as rocket fuel.

[mwilliams62]

I do. One cup bleach and one cup vinegar in the bathtub half full of water. soak, scrub and rinse, rinse and rinse. It is the best cleaning agent I have ever used. It really cuts the hard water build up left on tanks,

I hope you don't mix bleach and vinegar.

This is what you get:

2HOCl + 2HAc ↔ Cl₂ + 2H₂O + 2Ac^- (Ac : CH₃COO)

bleach + acetic acid(vinegar) = chlorine gas + water + acetic acid

Chlorine gas is toxic:

Chlorine gas is a pulmonary irritant with intermediate water solubility that causes acute damage in the upper and lower respiratory tract. Chlorine gas (http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/832336-overview) was first used as a chemical weapon at Ypres, France, in 1915. Of the 70,552 American soldiers poisoned with various gases in World War I, 1843 were exposed to chlorine gas.^[1]

This is the link:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/820779-overview

[SueAndHerZoo]

After tossing around all the various options (some feasible, some downright ridiculous) I have decided to go the safest route and do the 4-week Cupramine treatment in a separate hospital tank rather than turning one of my display tanks into one. I contacted the owner of my favorite LFS to ask if he has any used tanks lying around and he's got a 36" x 18" x 12" he's going to let me have (I think that comes out to be about a 34 gallon?) I will feel MUCH more comfortable housing my sick fish in a 34 gallon rather than my 20 gallon QT tank.

* I have in my possession a bottle of Cupramine, a copper test kit, two ammonia alert badges, and some Cuprasorb. I'm going to designate a turkey baster, net, bucket, etc. and mark them clearly so that they are ONLY used on the hospital tank and discarded afterwards.

* I am going to use the canister filter that's currently running on my QT tank but am going to steal some of the ceramic bio pieces out of the Fluval G6 that is running under my healthy 46 gallon tank. I figure the more bacteria, the better, right? Of course I will discard the sponges and ceramic once treatment is over.

* I have several powerheads in my arsenal of equipment and will put one or two near the top of the hospital tank to make sure the water is sufficiently agitated for oxygen purposes.

* Someone mentioned that I should probably add some sand to the hospital tank (I'm guessing because I have a diamond goby?) I will probably take a few cups out of each of my tanks (both the infected and non-infected ones) to create a sand bed in the hospital tank (which will get discarded after treament.)

Please let me know if you can think of anything I'm forgetting or if you see any flaws in my plan.... this will all be happening Friday/Saturday.

Couple more questions, please:

? What is optimal water temperature for a hospital tank being treated with Cupramine? Do I want it warmer than usual to speed up the lifecycle or is that irrelevant?

? Do you see any reason for me NOT to use some sand from the ick-infested tank? The Cupramine will kill whatever is transferred over, right?

? I may put a live rock or two in the hospital tank for some added biofiltration but more so for the fish to swim around and hide behind...... do you see any downside to that? I will throw the rock away after treament, but might there be enough die-off from the Cupramine to cause me an ammonia spike? In other words, would it cause more harm than good to sacrifice some rock to the hospital tank?

Think that's it for now. Thanks for all being here to help... I'm sure you get sick to death of answering some of the same questions over and over, especially when most of us have brought this on ourselves. :headwally:
Sue

[tmz]

? What is optimal water temperature for a hospital tank being treated with Cupramine? Do I want it warmer than usual to speed up the lifecycle or is that irrelevant?

Mostly irrelevant , 8O F or so is a good target .imo.. Higher temps speed up the protist's life cycle but also accelerate the fish's metabolism,may reduce available oxygen and cause stress. Keep it close to the temperature to which the fish are accustomed .

Make sure the sg is no higher than the water the fish are coming from. .001 or two or 3 lower will make it a little easier on them. Upward jumps make them work harder. Don't drip acclimate just put them in the temp adjusted water.

Do you see any reason for me NOT to use some sand from the ick-infested tank? The Cupramine will kill whatever is transferred over, right?


The copper at a therapuetic dose should kill the parasites that hatch from cysts that may be in the sand as they swim to the fish. However, any sand and and any rock you add will adsorb some free copper making it important to measure it to maintain a therapuetic dose of sufficient lethality to the ich.

I may put a live rock or two in the hospital tank for some added biofiltration but more so for the fish to swim around and hide behind...... do you see any downside to that? I will throw the rock away after treament, but might there be enough die-off from the Cupramine to cause me an ammonia spike? In other words, would it cause more harm than good to sacrifice some rock to the hospital tank?

Ok but again the rock, aragonite , will adsorb some of the copper, so watch the copper level closely. BTW you can reclaim that rock with a bleach bath followed by an acid bath when you are done ,which will leave you with clean dead rock that can be reseeded.

I wish you good luck.

PS

With qt for new specimens you should avoid ich in the future but if it does occur it's important to note the importance of acting quickly to avoid a second or third infestation which are generally more lethal than the first one.

There are several methods you can choose from for qt.
Personally, I prefer preventative treatment for ich for all new specimens.
My favorite is tank transfer which is med free, relatively fast and allows for the use of ammonia detoxifiers. It involves moving the fish to a new tank every 3 days for a total fo 4 transfers which leaves all the ich behind. A further period of observation in a cycled qt tank may follow to observe for other maladies that may not have presented in the 12 days of tank transfer. iIdidn't suggest it for your current situation because it seems impractical with the number of fish you need to treat but it's great using small tanks for a specimen or two at a time.

[tmz]

One more thought.

Use newly mixed water aged and aerated for several hours. Tank water will bring in organics which can contribute to ammonia levels.

[SueAndHerZoo]

One more thought.

Use newly mixed water aged and aerated for several hours. Tank water will bring in organics which can contribute to ammonia levels.

You're a God-send or a mind-reader, or both! As I was driving home today and running through my upcoming adventure in my head I wondered: do I want to use "seasoned" water from my other tanks in the hospital tank or do I want "unseasoned" but warmed, salted and aerated water? I know I've read or heard somewhere that you should use water from existing tanks for QT's but I was never sure why.

I always have a 90 gallon drum in the basement full of salted RO/DI water with a heater and powerhead going (for water changes and in case of emergency) so I'm thrilled that I can use that for the hospital tank. I was trying to figure out how much water from each existing tank I should use, if any, so you just cleared up that mystery - thank you!
Sue

Been out all day but off now to scrape all the crud and coraline off the used tank I picked up last night, then a vinegar bath and rinse and water test.

Thanks for the good wishes..... I'll be back with more questions, I'm sure. (and no, that "preventative" method of avoiding ick on all future fish does NOT sound easy to me..... doesn't that require having 3 or 4 QT tanks set up????? ) I think I'd rather treat new fish with Cupramine, wouldn't I? Oh well, that's a question for 9 weeks from now. First things first. :)
Sue

[tmz]

Some folks think tank water will help the biofilter by bringing in useful bacteria. It won't. It does bring in the nutrients which feed ammonia though.