Sump Design

[Reefing Newbie]

In the next couple of weeks I will be getting a new sump to handle a new skimmer (needed a better rated one for my bio-load). I just want to get thoughts and opinions on it. The far left section is where the tank will drain into a filter sock. After the first baffle is where my new skimmer will be (Reef Octo SRO-XP2000I). The last section is where my return pump will be (Mag 12). There will be a hole drilled where my fuge will drain into. My fuge will be fed by a 900 gph pump of some sort from the skimmer section. The fuge will be a 20 gallon high with a DSB and macros. There will be a BRS dual reactor added later on. Not sure where to put the pumps and drains without cluttering up my stand. Any suggestions? Also, how big of a hole do I need to have drilled in the sump and 20 high to handle a 900 gph flow rate?

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x450/kriben1/DTsumpfuge2.jpg

[Big Dog]

Looks good!

[Playa-1]

I would add another baffle to the far right to make a better bubble trap, this new 4th baffle would be the same height at the 2nd baffle. I would also consider putting the skimmer on a pvc stand so that you can raise the 2nd and 4th baffles and get more use of the sump volume. The 3rd baffle I would lower to match the 1st baffle to remove any restrictions on the backflow during a power outage.

[Reefing Newbie]

So add a 4th 10" baffle to match the second one. Then increase their height with the skimmer on a stand. Then put the 3rd baffle down lower? It is set at 1" above the bottom currently and 1" away from the baffle for the bubble trap. Would 12" be an okay height for the baffles? I can't go much taller with the limited height in the stand. I also want plenty of room for drain water if the power goes out. Just keeping in mind that there will be some water coming from the sump as well.

[daplatapus]

I'd second the suggestion of raising your baffle to raise the water level in the skimmer section. Mine's 12" high (in an 80 gal sump) and I have my SRO2000int sitting in there on a 6" PVC stand and 6" in the water. It could still come up a bit. There's about 8" from the bottom of the skimmer to the top of the outlet. As long as you can control the splash coming out from there (I adapted a 90 turned sideways on it) you can raise that to within 2"-3" of the rim of your tank.

[Playa-1]

The third baffle doesn't actually move lower but you don't want it all the way to the top of the sump. The top of it should match the number one baffle or a little higher. The skimmer on the stand is completely optional but I would do it.

[jcw]

is there really a need for the first baffle? water coming down 4" might make some noise.

you can save some material not making the second wall of the second baffle go all the way to the top.

if you do put a 3rd wall, make it shorter than the 1st wall of the bubble trap. that way the water doesn't make as much noise falling into the return section.

feeding another tank (fuge) is dangerous unless you take the same precautions you do with the display tank, namely redundant drains and emergency drains.

[Reefing Newbie]

Could you post a picture of you skimmer and the adapted 90? Not sure what you mean by it, but I would love to see so I can fix the splashing problem when it comes up (getting my sump redone first then getting the skimmer). I may do 12". I need new filter socks so I may not have the regular ones. What I will probably get are the draw string ones that attach to the plumbing so I can push the first baffle back a bit. Any recommendation on which section I should put the reactor pump in? I am a little unsure about the first area then drain into the skimmer section.

[daplatapus]

Give me 5 min ....

[Reefing Newbie]

is there really a need for the first baffle? water coming down 4" might make some noise.

you can save some material not making the second wall of the second baffle go all the way to the top.

if you do put a 3rd wall, make it shorter than the 1st wall of the bubble trap. that way the water doesn't make as much noise falling into the return section.

feeding another tank (fuge) is dangerous unless you take the same precautions you do with the display tank, namely redundant drains and emergency drains.

Should I have two drains then? I want it as safe as possible and never thought about that. I was planning on making small egg crate boxes to put over the drains on the fuge so macros don't end up in the return. I could tear it down. The design was made with the intention that the filter socks would be requiring a sock holder and I wanted the first section deeper, but my socks are old and falling apart. The new socks may have the drawstring to attach directly to the drain. How big should the holes be drilled in the fuge and sump to handle ~900gph?

How about cutting the first baffle and making one large skimmer section. Then I could make the bubble trap taller by a few inches, say we go to 13" on the first wall then 12" on the third and final wall. I could spread the baffles of the bubble trap more and shorten the middle wall to get rid of more bubbles. The return pump is a mag 12... Would it be okay to have the dual reactor pump and drain in the skimmer section? I just don't want to have water keep going through the reactor and not get skimmed or returned.

[sleepydoc]

You're experiencing the vagaries of sump design! I was never sure what the purpose of a 3rd baffle in the bubble trap would be if you have it over-under-over. Any bubbles that make it under the second baffle would certainly make it over the last one you added, so it seems like it would be redundant.

In terms of the baffle heights, more volume is good, but definitely make sure you have enough extra volume to handle any draining from your DT should you have a power failure. Also make sure you can get the top off your skimmer to empty/clean it!

[Playa-1]

I agree that you could loose the 1st baffle as it doesn't serve much of a purpose. The reactors could go in the large part of the sump with the discharge hose to the bubble trap.

[daplatapus]

So this is what I did with mine. I found the "T" coming off the skimmer created a ton of splash. So I rigged up a 90 on a piece of spa flex and it totally quieted it down to a pleasing gurgle. Not completely quiet but manageable. I did have the 90 pointed straight down into the water but it air locked on me once and flooded the skimmer, so make sure it's not all in the water.

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/P3152557.jpg

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/P3152558.jpg

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/P3152560.jpg

This is how high I have it now and could have been a bit higher, oh well...

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/P3152561.jpg

And here's a shot of my baffles. I kinda screwed up when building it (it was my first time) but it actually works quite well and I rarely get anything making past the baffles. So my 1st baffle is tight to the bottom and my second baffle is up off by 1"

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/P3152567.jpg

and here's a couple pics from when I first built it. It's still pretty much the same, but now I have my dosers dosing into the gap between the baffles.

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/PB172259.jpg

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x353/daplatapus/PA042084.jpg

[sleepydoc]

Reef octopus makes an output vent attachment that is supposed to quiet the flow and reduce splashing. Haven't used one myself but seen several positive posts on them. It looks like something you could probably build yourself, except the reef octopus skimmers use metric pipe, if I remember correctly.

http://coralvue.com/protein-skimmer-output-vent/

[Reefing Newbie]

daplatapus (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/member.php?u=259886), thanks for the skimmer idea.

How tall should I have the second be? Should I have it 1" or 2" from the bottom? How far should the baffles in the bubble trap be from each other with a 1200gph return? Also, what size PVC should I have connecting the fuge and sump?

[Reefing Newbie]

Here is the new sketch of the sump. Thoughts welcome again. Want to get this done as well as I can, thanks for all the help!

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x450/kriben1/DTsumpfuge-1.jpg

[jcw]

The safest thing is to keep the fuge in the same tank as the sump.

If not...

I have a separate refugium that I now use as a secondary display. I set the tank slightly higher than the sump. I drilled two drains from the side of the fuge/dt that simply dropped down and into the return section of the sump. Later on I redid the pipe so that it dropped into the bubble trap so there wouldn't be microbubbles in the return section. The emergency drain drained straight down into the sump.

Here's a link to my build thread. I made my third wall the same height and know what its like to have water crashing over it into the return section. Basically, you want to keep that wall a couple inches above whatever height you'd like the return section water height to be.

Remember you want enough spare space in your sump to be able to handle ALL THE BACK SIPHON water from your main DT if the main pumps go off.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1927572&page=3
Scroll to post 64

[Playa-1]

Here is the new sketch of the sump. Thoughts welcome again. Want to get this done as well as I can, thanks for all the help!

http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x450/kriben1/DTsumpfuge-1.jpg

You will want the 1st and last baffles the same height.

[Reefing Newbie]

I will do the same height on both the 1st and 3Ed baffles then.

The reason for a separate fuge is so I can take my sump out of I have a problem and for general maintainence. If I go longer than 36" then I can't get it out of my stand easily. Connecting my fuge with drains and a feeding pump allows me to have as large of a fuge and sump that I can easily remove. I will be doing two drains for the fuge since you said I should. Going to get the drains as safe as I can with what I have planned. Thanks for all of the help!

[Playa-1]

I think you should revisit the holes drilled in the side of the return section? What exactly is their purpose again?

[Reefing Newbie]

That is where the fuge will drain. I will be putting elbows on the inside flail them up. Then connect a length of straight PVC to bring it to level with the water level in the return section. I don't know how to draw piping in Google Sketch so I can't show that.

[jcw]

You will want the 1st and last baffles the same height.

Why?

I would put the third lower to decrease the amount of distance the water drops to the return section. Keeping it high just creates more bubbles.

The height of the water level in the skimmer is determined by that first baffle. the third baffle is only there as another deterrent for bubbles to spread into the return chamber.

[Playa-1]

That is where the fuge will drain. I will be putting elbows on the inside flail them up. Then connect a length of straight PVC to bring it to level with the water level in the return section. I don't know how to draw piping in Google Sketch so I can't show that.

I've got several concerns about your drains for the fuge.
How big is the fuge going to be?
Is it going to be elevated above the sump? if so how high?
How much turnover are you going to have thru the fuge?

[Playa-1]

Why?

I would put the third lower to decrease the amount of distance the water drops to the return section. Keeping it high just creates more bubbles.

The height of the water level in the skimmer is determined by that first baffle. the third baffle is only there as another deterrent for bubbles to spread into the return chamber.

I would prefer the bubble trap to take the bubbles to the surface before allowing the return pump to act on them as opposed to a couple of inches from the surface. The fine micro bubbles from the skimmer section can have much more of an impact on the DT then what you would get from the short drop of the last baffle. Noise should not be an issue unless your running an undersized sump and an oversized pump.

[Reefing Newbie]

I've got several concerns about your drains for the fuge.
How big is the fuge going to be?
Is it going to be elevated above the sump? if so how high?
How much turnover are you going to have thru the fuge?

Fuge will be a 20 high.
Wasn't planning on raising it unless I need to. I got the separate fuge idea from Palting's build thread. Drains will be bulkheads that are the same size as the drain bulkheads on 125 gallon tanks.
There will be a pump rated for ~900 gph maybe a little less.

Give me your concerns as that is why I am asking.

[Playa-1]

My first concern is that 900 gph will not likely flow horizontally thru a couple of small bulkhead fitting with back pressure resulting in rapidly overflowing the fuge. You have options but I wanted to bring this up so that you would take a closer look at it.

I question the need for a second pump to supply the fuge. Why not just tee off of the return pump and send a little of the volume thru the fuge. If you need more flow in there then get it with powerheads.

Another concern is by dropping a pump into the skimmer section at 900 gph with lots of micro bubbles and then draining the microbubbles directly into the return section at 900 gph (via the fuge) could fill the DT with microbubbles and defeat the purpose of the baffles in the sump to begin with. That is unless you have something in place to deal with the microbubbles.

Just to be clear, The plan is to have the fuge tied into the sump with a horizontal pipe or two with gravity to balance the water between the two tanks? If this is the case then you have to take into account that the bulkheads that your planning to use will likely not do the trick. The water will not flow thru the horizontal pipes with back pressure like it will with a gravity fed drain pipe from a DT. It's not necessarily a problem at a very slow turnover rate but for high volume it could be a problem. Here again you have options but it is a situation that you should give careful consideration too before moving forward.

[Reefing Newbie]

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/Aquarium/IMG_0162.jpg

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/Kalawing/IMG_1329.jpg

This is where I got the idea. These are pictures Palting sent me after I asked him about the set up. I may get a smaller pump being that Palting's pump is lowered to around 350 gph.

Post 98 shows what I may do to prevent microbubbles after the fuge drains.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1853170&page=4

[Playa-1]

It looks like he had to drop the flow down to roughly 100 gph with a 1" bulkhead and a ghetto bubble trap to make it work :) (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) That was my point, there are options but 900 gph isn't one of them unless major changes are made.

[Playa-1]

Check out the varied sump designs on this link. You will see a few spit systems on there for some ideas.
http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[Reefing Newbie]

I may just feed the fuge with my return pump. It saves money and electricity. I didn't see any split fuges and sumps in the link.

The drain from fuge to sump seems complicated. Would a herbie drain work for draining the fuge? I may get the skimmer first so I can take my time designing the sump and fuge. This is something that I really don't want to do again. I wish the middle beam on my stand came out. Would be easier to do one tank for the fuge and sump.

[Playa-1]

On the left side of the page

Varied Sumps
Model A my first design
Model B fit under the 55g
Model C separated units
Model D stacked tight
Model E small but functional
Model F a popular choice!
Model G bigger than F
Model G - Modified
Model H similar to G modified
Model I small & divided
Model J unique layout
Model K fit a bowfront tank
Model L custom request
Model M fits a small tank

[Reefing Newbie]

I saw the two now. Thanks! I couldn't see how the drain worked on the Model C. That is something I am going for more or less. It looks like the drains just ran to the return side of the second baffle in the bubble trap. I may do something like that then. I can get the fuge on a short stand, like 4-6" up to get the plumbing over the top of the sump. Do you happen to know how the drain on the fuge works?

[Playa-1]

In that example he just has a couple of 1" open bulkhead fittings in the fuge that drain to the top of the bubble trap before the return pump. I would modify that a bit and put in a screen covered overflow box ,or something similar, over the fuge bulkheads to make sure they don't get clogged up. The slightly elevated fuge allows him to run the plumbing over the top and eliminates the need for extra bulkheads in addition to taking advantage of the gravity drains. This eliminates the back pressure on the drain lines and the micro bubbles to the return pump. You would just want to make sure that you would still have enough room to service the fuge when you need to. There are obviously other methods to get it done but that one would serve you well.

[Reefing Newbie]

In my situation wouldn't micro bubbles be minimal because of the fuge being fed via the return pump? I may just go that route wih 2x 1" open bulkheads. Now to figure what kind of material to use. I want pods to be able to slip through to go to the DT.

[Playa-1]

It doesn't look like micro bubbles would be an issue with this design.