Was it worth it? Treating Ich... ?

[yachtdr22]

First, I acknowledge my own stupidity and not being a good reefer by not QUARANTINE !! Do It, forget the $$ the regret is worse!!!
:headwally: :headwally: :headwally:
I am pondering a question;

Discovered Hippo Tang scratching, noticed a spot, found a tiny spot on the Peck. fin of sailfin tang. ALL others, happy and healthy..
Took about 7 days to assemble and fill my Hospital tank, (used filterpad from DT to seed) a 75 gal reef/ bio ball wet dry, auto top off & skimmer. Bare Bottom, w/ 6) 4" PVC fittings for shelter& Ammonia Badge.
Powerhead laying on the bottom and a air pump to a wood airstone.
Took another few days to catch fish and get them into the HT before going Hypo....
In the HT prior to Salinity Drop.. 10 Days from first noticing,
Yellow Tang, Sailfin Tang, Long Nose Hawk, Flame Hawk, Jester Gobi, Lawnmower Blenny, Marine Beta, 2) Clowns, Mandarin Gobi, Fire Fish, Pajama Tetra

NOTE: There are still 4 hold outs in the DT. The Hippo Tang (who has been a worthy opponent) and the FIRST to show signs and 3) Blue Chromis . All are happy, swimming and feeding.

The Yellow Tang and the Sailfin both died on day 10 (HT at 1.025) I decided I could not wait any longer and it was time to go Hypo and acclimate the hold outs.

I started @ 1.025 and did a 5 gal water change that brought me to 1.022
Decided that was a bit drastic so started removing 1 gal at a time and let the auto top off make it up…

Note,
ALL fish seemed happy and healthy in the DT prior to capture.

It has taken me about 70 hrs to exchange 125 gal of FW to dilute the HT to the current 1.009 (measured by calibrated refractometer) and will be maintained by Auto Top off…
Last Night, the Jester Gobi Passed and this morning I found the Long Nose Hawk, Mandarin Gobi Pajama Tetra had expired.

Currently, The clowns are happy and eating well, the Flame hawk is breathing heavy and has lost color. Marine Beta looking well, but have not seen eat. Lawnmower Blenny is not looking great.
The firefish is hiding behind the powerhead, looks like he has color, but don’t want to disturb.

I have not checked any of the water chemistry yet as I just got to 1.009 and was already changing water and kept an eye on the ammonia badge.

Soliciting any thoughts or ideas as I really feel that if I had left everyone in the DT and kept fed properly, there might have been a different result…

Thanks All

[yachtdr22]

The flame hawk just went into the light..... :sad2::sad2::sad2:

[sandwi54]

***Not treating for ich will eventually lead to the same result***

Now let's come to your problem. Did all of the fish die from ich? Were they heavily infested? Hypo is actually a faily difficult treatment as there will be large pH swings unless you buffer the water. In a HT without any calcerous materials and any buffering, the pH can crash fairly quickly, and that can kill fish.

If all your fish were looking healthy and eating prior to the water change to bring salinity down to 1.009, I suspect they died from the crashing pH instead of ich. Measure it to see where it's at now.

[Triton_Z]

Sorry for your loss of your fish.

Sounds like either the progression of the infestation on your fish was further along then visible or perhaps you were dealing with velvet or other quick acting disease/parasite. I am not a big fan of hypo salinity treatment. pH is difficult to maintain under low salinity treatments, but given your larger volume HT, this could be managed more easily. Your ATO and use of an accurate method to measure salinity should help you in your treatment.

Ammonia and pH are good parameters to track during hypo.

Formalin dips or Seachem's Paraguard dips before introduction into your QT/HT would be helpful and could help with fast acting ectoparasites like icy or velvet.

Answering your question, I think you would have likely just delayed the escalation of the outbreak for a longer period of time if you did not act.

Can you discuss some of the symptoms present on your fish prior to moving them to the HT? How long from scratching and spots on a few fish to HT? How old and established is your DT? Unsure from reading your post.

[KatilicaClavijo]

Im so sorry for your loss of your fish. I understand very frustrating. I guess the hypo treatment is very hard to accomplish. Could be you did not detect the parasites on time, and they have induced a massive infestation. Again I'm sorry :( for your loss.

[kingfisher62]

I made the same mistake as you at my early stages in this hobby!
I actually gave up on treating any ich outbreaks. Seems the "cure " always stressed the fish out more than the parasite did and lost several fish that way. If I ever have an outbreak I just concentrate on extra water changes and trying to get the water as pristine as possible and feeding with garlic soaked food to entice any unhealthy fish to eat more. I believe a ich free tank is almost impossible to have . I think most tanks have it but if the fish are healthy they can slough it off. This is just my opinion. I might get blasted for this but the method has worked for me .

[yachtdr22]

Now let's come to your problem. Did all of the fish die from ich?
I don’t think so. It did appear that all were overcome by respiratory distress.

Were they heavily infested?
No, everyone looked great except for the Hippo (still in DT) was scratching and is spotting. Sailfin had one little spec on his pick fin. All were eating, looked and behaved normally.

Hypo is actually a faily difficult treatment as there will be large pH swings unless you buffer the water.
I never thought of it.. I have read all I could and never saw it mentioned..

In a HT without any calcerous materials and any buffering, the pH can crash fairly quickly, and that can kill fish.
My 75 gal HT has a wet/dry sump with Bio Balls ??

If all your fish were looking healthy and eating prior to the water change to bring salinity down to 1.009, I suspect they died from the crashing pH instead of ich. Measure it to see where it's at now.
I cant say that anyone was really happy being moved into the HT., but most were eating.
The Yellow & Sailfin both dies before starting Hypo..
Current HT pH is 8.4

Sounds like either the progression of the infestation on your fish was further along then visible or perhaps you were dealing with velvet or other quick acting disease/parasite. I am not a big fan of hypo salinity treatment. pH is difficult to maintain under low salinity treatments, but given your larger volume HT, this could be managed more easily. Your ATO and use of an accurate method to measure salinity should help you in your treatment.
The reason I chose to go with the Hypo treatment as it seemed, from what I read it was easier and gentler on the fish. I had not read anything to the contrary?

Answering your question, I think you would have likely just delayed the escalation of the outbreak for a longer period of time if you did not act.
Maybe so, but I believe they would have existed in the tank for a while longer…

Can you discuss some of the symptoms present on your fish prior to moving them to the HT? How long from scratching and spots on a few fish to HT?
Everyone was fine! The only one in the HT that had any thing was 1 little spot on the sailfin. The hippo is still in the DT and scratching.. but very hungry as I am trying to still trap him..
How old and established is your DT? Unsure from reading your post.
Tank was bought used and moved 12/11 has been very well and all readings are okedokee.
Current pH in HT is 8.4
Thoughts? Ideas???

[yachtdr22]

I made the same mistake as you at my early stages in this hobby!
I actually gave up on treating any ich outbreaks. Seems the "cure " always stressed the fish out more than the parasite did and lost several fish that way. If I ever have an outbreak I just concentrate on extra water changes and trying to get the water as pristine as possible and feeding with garlic soaked food to entice any unhealthy fish to eat more. I believe a ich free tank is almost impossible to have . I think most tanks have it but if the fish are healthy they can slough it off. This is just my opinion. I might get blasted for this but the method has worked for me .

My feeling is that you are right!!

[yachtdr22]

BIG QUESTION NOW....
i have 4 living fish in the DT that DO NOT WANT out!
i have 5 in the HT. Do I abort and bring back the salinity? or stress the sh*$ out of the 4 in the DT ( Hippo will most likely not make it) and those chromis are really fast...
I am sure that catching them will involve lots of tank work????

[sandwi54]

My feeling is that you are right!!

Don't be discouraged by this! "Managing ich" is definitely not the right thing to do, as you will almost always come down to the same result when a major stress kicks in, e.g., power outage, heater going bad, etc. Even just introducing a new fish that harasses everyone else will cause enough stress for an huge ich outbreak. Trust me, I've seen this many times, in both my own tanks or other people's. You will need to get rid of ich!

Let's come back to your problem again. Like someone else suggested, it could have been velvet rather than ich, but given that your fish have been sick for many days, it's unlikely. Velvet can and will wipe out an entire tank in a matter of days, so if your fish exhibited spots and survived, I'd think you're dealing with ich.

It sounds like your fish died from something other than the parasite. Since you only replaced one gallon per hour, and your pH is still at 8.4, I don't believe your fish went through large pH swings. Do still keep an eye on pH as it could eventually go down without enough buffering in the water. From my experience, it would continue to drift down to around 7.5, which is dangerous to fish. In hyposalinity, the alkalinity can be as low as 2-3, and uou will need pure sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to buffer the water. Don't use the regular pH buffers as most of them do not contain enough sodium carbonate; they merely try to establish a balance in the water chemistry at regular seawater salinity. You can make pure sodium bicarbonate by putting baking soda in an oven and bake it. Or if you don't want to do that, Seachem makes a product called "Reef Builder" that contains enough sodium bicarbonate, and I have used this with success to buffer hyposaline water. Please note that this is the "Reef Builder" and not "Reef Buffer." Don't buy the wrong product.

Anyway, have you tested your water to make sure ammonia is undetectable? You didn't mention if the Wet/Dry filter in the HT is cycled.

[sandwi54]

BIG QUESTION NOW....
i have 4 living fish in the DT that DO NOT WANT out!
i have 5 in the HT. Do I abort and bring back the salinity? or stress the sh*$ out of the 4 in the DT ( Hippo will most likely not make it) and those chromis are really fast...
I am sure that catching them will involve lots of tank work????

"Stress" is the most abused word and a huge misconception in this hobby. Catching a fish will cause a temporary stress which will go away when the fish settles down in the new tank. Catching a fish WILL NOT cause it to die from an existing parasite, but not treating it WILL.

Since you already started hypo in the HT, you should just catch all of the remaining fish in the DT and put them in there for treatment. Chromis are going to be hard to catch and I'm sorry I can't help you on that. If I were you, I would either use a fish trap, or if that fails too, tear down the whole tank and start over. Many people, including myself, have gone through this. It's painful, but it's worth it once you get a fresh new start.

Of course, keep an eye on ammonia as hyposalinity often retards the biological filter for a few days, so ammonia could become a problem.

[KatilicaClavijo]

The Fish Trap is excellent advise!

[Triton_Z]

Don't be discouraged by this! "Managing ich" is definitely not the right thing to do, as you will almost always come down to the same result when a major stress kicks in, e.g., power outage, heater going bad, etc. .

I agree with Sandwi. Acclimation or water quality issues (ph, Ammonia, etc.) are likely related to your recent losses.

A pH of 8.4 in hypo salinity conditions appears high. How are you measuring your pH? I am doubtful of the accuracy of this pH reading. Your tank is pretty new if you did a move about 3-4 months ago.

[yachtdr22]

"Stress" is the most abused word and a huge misconception in this hobby. Catching a fish will cause a temporary stress which will go away when the fish settles down in the new tank. Catching a fish WILL NOT cause it to die from an existing parasite, but not treating it WILL.

Since you already started hypo in the HT, you should just catch all of the remaining fish in the DT and put them in there for treatment. Chromis are going to be hard to catch and I'm sorry I can't help you on that. If I were you, I would either use a fish trap, or if that fails too, tear down the whole tank and start over. Many people, including myself, have gone through this. It's painful, but it's worth it once you get a fresh new start.

Of course, keep an eye on ammonia as hyposalinity often retards the biological filter for a few days, so ammonia could become a problem.



I guess today is fish tank take apart day...

FYI.. TO ANY READING...
If anyone is in doubt about purchasing a hi- volume RO/DI unit..
the 6 stage Deluxe w/ the 150 GPD upgrade @ BRS is WELL WORTH THE INVESTMENT....
there is a HUGE value in having the ability to produce alot of water quickly

[Triton_Z]

The reason I chose to go with the Hypo treatment as it seemed, from what I read it was easier and gentler on the fish. I had not read anything to the contrary?


It can be. However, as mentioned already, the pitfalls of Hypo are:

1) Maintaining a stable, therapeutic hypo salinity due to evaporation (Having an ATO do this for you can help here)

2) Buffer capacity at hypo salinity conditions is reduced and therefore pH stability is poor. You can again counter this by adding sodium bicarb (baking soda) and monitoring your pH.

3) Biological filter inefficiency. You can lose your ability to keep ammonia and other waste levels under control due to the loss and slowdown of your biological filter (bacterial metabolic activity can suspend). The dissolved organics will drive the pH and alkalinity levels down. Test and monitor ammonia levels (grab/use a test kit to confirm your badge readings).

4) Lack of ability to medicate. Most medications in hypo salinity conditions are much more potent and you must be careful. This is not directly applicable to your activities at the moment, but good to keep in mind for the future.

Hypo can be done with success as there a great number of people who practice and use it. I do not like Copper treatment myself, but is useful for some ectoparasites, like ich. This leaves very few options for treatment and why I hope to try out the tank transfer method during any future QT.

You're right, the choice of no action, would have prolonged the outcome, but sooner or later you would have to deal with the disease/infestation. I know it's frustrating, but with proper QT and monitoring, many of these problems can be avoided.

[sandwi54]

It can be. However, as mentioned already, the pitfalls of Hypo are:

1) Maintaining a stable, therapeutic hypo salinity due to evaporation (Having an ATO do this for you can help here)

2) Buffer capacity at hypo salinity conditions is reduced and therefore pH stability is poor. You can again counter this by adding sodium bicarb (baking soda) and monitoring your pH.

3) Biological filter inefficiency. You can lose your ability to keep ammonia and other waste levels under control due to the loss and slowdown of your biological filter (bacterial metabolic activity can suspend). The dissolved organics will drive the pH and alkalinity levels down. Test and monitor ammonia levels (grab/use a test kit to confirm your badge readings).

4) Lack of ability to medicate. Most medications in hypo salinity conditions are much more potent and you must be careful. This is not directly applicable to your activities at the moment, but good to keep in mind for the future.

Hypo can be done with success as there a great number of people who practice and use it. I do not like Copper treatment myself, but is useful for some ectoparasites, like ich. This leaves very few options for treatment and why I hope to try out the tank transfer method during any future QT.

You're right, the choice of no action, would have prolonged the outcome, but sooner or later you would have to deal with the disease/infestation. I know it's frustrating, but with proper QT and monitoring, many of these problems can be avoided.

Great summary Dan!

[yachtdr22]

It can be. However, as mentioned already, the pitfalls of Hypo are:

1) Maintaining a stable, therapeutic hypo salinity due to evaporation (Having an ATO do this for you can help here)

2) Buffer capacity at hypo salinity conditions is reduced and therefore pH stability is poor. You can again counter this by adding sodium bicarb (baking soda) and monitoring your pH.

3) Biological filter inefficiency. You can lose your ability to keep ammonia and other waste levels under control due to the loss and slowdown of your biological filter (bacterial metabolic activity can suspend). The dissolved organics will drive the pH and alkalinity levels down. Test and monitor ammonia levels (grab/use a test kit to confirm your badge readings).

4) Lack of ability to medicate. Most medications in hypo salinity conditions are much more potent and you must be careful. This is not directly applicable to your activities at the moment, but good to keep in mind for the future.

Hypo can be done with success as there a great number of people who practice and use it. I do not like Copper treatment myself, but is useful for some ectoparasites, like ich. This leaves very few options for treatment and why I hope to try out the tank transfer method during any future QT.

You're right, the choice of no action, would have prolonged the outcome, but sooner or later you would have to deal with the disease/infestation. I know it's frustrating, but with proper QT and monitoring, many of these problems can be avoided.

Thanks for the info...
Everyone is now in the HT @ 1.009 and pH is holding @ 8.25 and I am sooo glad you mentioned something because the pH on the 20 gal of 1.009 water for my planned water change tomorrow is 8.7... guess who is getting some bicarb in the AM...
What are the negatives of copper treatment?
I was thinking
about bringing them back slowly and going that route now that I have lost 1/2 of the guys?

Drew

[krzyphsygy]

I have caught several fish including chromis his way: Take a small clear glass, wash it well and rinse it. Hold it so its half way under water in your tank, so you will turn it on its side, like your pouring a drink. Then feed the glass with food while its half under water let the fish get a little used to you holding the glass in the tank. Then what will happen is eventually is they all swim in the glass to get the food. Then all you do is turn it back up and remove from water.

I have caught dozen of fsh this way...chromis will be easy, they love to eat!

[yachtdr22]

I have caught several fish including chromis his way: Take a small clear glass, wash it well and rinse it. Hold it so its half way under water in your tank, so you will turn it on its side, like your pouring a drink. Then feed the glass with food while its half under water let the fish get a little used to you holding the glass in the tank. Then what will happen is eventually is they all swim in the glass to get the food. Then all you do is turn it back up and remove from water.

I have caught dozen of fsh this way...chromis will be easy, they love to eat!

Thanks.. great method.. I also had them jumping into the net when feeding out of a brine shrimp net.
It amazed me how for months the guys would follow me around the room waiting for their Yum Yums... but a hour or 2 chasing them with the net cured that issue! They got so skiddish that they would not even come out when I was in the room!
I finally took the day (3/22) and removed all of my rock and partitioned the thank. FAST little guys!!!

[yachtdr22]

Happy to report that after a week in the HT @ 1.009, the fish are finally starting to swim around and eating well.

The total score, ICH 8, Hypo 7

Interesting note, the water in the HT had been a little cloudy since set up 2 weeks ago?
Running Bare bottom 75 wet/dry, auto top off

PPS... I cant get any skimming at this low salinity? any ideas? Skimmer is a Red Sea Berlin.

[yachtdr22]

HELP! MAJOR BUMMER;
No ICH was visible after 1 week of 1.009.
4 weeks later and hoping to start back up the salinity scale and POOF.. Its Back!!
I Have been changing the filter daily.

Anyone have any input on Kent Rx-P ?? Some was given to me when I bought a tank and the label reads like it should work?

input?

thanks
Drew