Tank cycle question? Help

[BryanGoodson]

Okay so this is my third tank but I'm still a little confused about what sets a cycle in motion. For my other two I just put the live rock in and over the first few days I watched the ammonia climb then fall to nitrites and on to nitrates. Well this time I put in 12lbs of live rock a local member had in his tank into my 10 gallon sumpless and for the last four days it has just been sitting at .25ppm ammonia then of course 0 nitrites and nitrates. Shouldn't it be climbing? I put some flakes in each day trying to drive the ammonia up to no avail. I know I need to be patient but my other two progressed a lot fast which lead me to question if I am doing something wrong. Thank you all. Here's the rock. http://img.tapatalk.com/aee4c88b-7f61-f9f9.jpg

[Faithinc]

I kind of ran into the same thing. I had some really well established rock and water... so my cycle was taking some time. My solution was to really over-feed the tank with lights off. I tied a cube of mysis to the under-site of one of my LR and turned off the powerheads/skimmers for the day. The ammonia spiked to 1 (finally) the day after and has begun to cycle through the nitrite/nitrate cycle now. To guarantee the ammonia spike, every 2 days I put another block of mysis in to keep the cycle propagating. After a couple of days it kicked in and I went back to just letting it take its course. (I also stopped over-feeding it at this point).

[thegrun]

Your established (fully cured) live rock is processing the ammonia created as the food breaks down. To get a more robust cycle try adding a teaspoon or two of pure ammonia (available at any pharmacy) to drive the ammonia up to 2 ppm.

[BryanGoodson]

Your established (fully cured) live rock is processing the ammonia created as the food breaks down. To get a more robust cycle try adding a teaspoon or two of pure ammonia (available at any pharmacy) to drive the ammonia up to 2 ppm.

Any idea how much I should add for 10 gallons?

[BryanGoodson]

Oops managed to miss "a teaspoon or two"

[thegrun]

Any idea how much I should add for 10 gallons?

You will have to test to get the amount right, but start with a teaspoon and add more if the levels don't rise. Raise the ammonia to 1ppm, but i like to shoot for 2ppm unless there is something on the live rock you are hoping to have survive the cycle.

[BryanGoodson]

The live rock has some coraline on it I also noticed a few brittle stars hiding in it as well as a few little stars moving around the glass.

[BryanGoodson]

If it makes any difference the live rock was transported in a 5gal bucket of saltwater.

[BryanGoodson]

Local places I looked we're out of ammonia -.- is it possible that since it wasn't out of the water very long that there wasn't enough die off to trigger a noticeable cycle?

[matty_g]

ive been wondering the same thing. I have a 120g tank, and i put in 40lbs of live rock but I just dont understand how the tank starts to cycle. Were does the ammonia come from to start the cycle? or do i have to be adding an ammonia source? Can the live rock start a cycle on its own?

[michael.lemke]

live rock can do it on it's own, well established rock will only allow a mold cycle as it is already full of bacteria. Seachem does make a product to add to a tank that helps avoid a cycle, I used it when transferring things into my 120 from my 75. Worked great! I think it was stability, basically a bottle of bacteria?!?..

[spieszak]

ive been wondering the same thing. I have a 120g tank, and i put in 40lbs of live rock but I just dont understand how the tank starts to cycle. Were does the ammonia come from to start the cycle? or do i have to be adding an ammonia source? Can the live rock start a cycle on its own?

The ammonia comes from the breakdown of decaying organic material. The good bacteria turn that from ammonia into nitrite, and then to nitrate.
If your live rock has little to no die off, or is just "chock full" of good bacteria, you won't see an ammonia spike. This can be good, but its hard to "trust" since there really isn't a way to tell if its "chock full" or good bacteria, or if there wasn't a cycle at all.
You don't need pure ammonia. (although I don't object to its use) You just need decaying organic material. A dead (un coooked) shrimp from the grocery store is a good way to go. Put it in some nylon panty hose for easier removal later. Throw it in the tank and watch for the spike. Give it a week or so. If you don't get a spike with the shrimp decaying in the water, your likely good to go. If you do, you can then say your cycle has begun, and you handle it from there.
You can do it by "ghost feeding" also. The bonus of the dead shrimp is the "volume" of material available for decay. And the fact that its "continuously" available. It allows your new good bacteria as much food as they can eat, allowing for massive reproduction, meaning that once your cycle is complete, while you'll still want to add fish slowly, you can be pretty sure you won't overload your tank with a single fish.

[spieszak]

live rock can do it on it's own, well established rock will only allow a mold cycle as it is already full of bacteria. Seachem does make a product to add to a tank that helps avoid a cycle, I used it when transferring things into my 120 from my 75. Worked great! I think it was stability, basically a bottle of bacteria?!?..

The "bacteria in a bottle" approach is one of those things with lots of doubters out there... I personally don't think its all that helpful, but others feel like they've had success with it. Since I don't use it, I won't speak to its effectiveness, but do think that one should consider how quickly most bacteria die off with out access to the proper nutrition and environment. At worst, I would hope, since I haven't seen massive reports of problems with using these products, its just a bunch of dead organic material your adding to your tank (at three times the price of the dead shrimp)

[matty_g]

What do you mean when you refer to live rock 'die off'? I assume that the rock is producing some dead organic matter itself? then it will convert that ammonia into nitrites?

[matty_g]

i may as well just throw in a source of ammonia, or ammonia itself, it couldnt hurt the cycle i dont think...

[Ronic]

on Kcress's build he put a tablespoon in 220 gallons and blew the ammonia off the chart.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1869655&page=31 post 758

[daveydoodle]

When Live Rock is ordered online or transported from a LFS OUTSIDE of a container of water, bacteria on the live rock will start to die off. Hence the term "live rock die off". Clearly live rock shipped from somewhere outside your state (ex: Florida to Colorado) is more than a day or two in shipping and although it is wrapped in wet newspaper, or dampened with wet seawater paper towels, that's different than being fully submersed in natural seawater so some of the bacteria will naturally die off. More will die off from shipping than from driving home from a LFS (longer time outside of natural living conditions). Even live rock transported home from a LFS outside of water will have some die off.
I recently purchased about 40 pounds of live rock and also transported it home from the LFS in a large rubbermaid tub filled with seawater from my tank. I had very little bacteria die during that transport.
I supplemented an ammonia source since my live rock had very little organic material decomposing to produce ammonia (again as it was kept in seawater the entire trip). This is where you can wait to see what your ammonia levels rise to, and hope that the beginning of a cycle is obvious. Otherwise, you throw a proven ammonia source (ghost feed, shrimp, pure ammonia) and see if your bacteria can support that bioload. If it does, more than likely you're good to go (more than likely, not always), otherwise you've just started your cycle and you know how that runs and when it's over.

[matty_g]

great, my question is answered, thanks guys!!