Best biological filtration

[Fant4]

Hi,
I have 2 tanks 100"x40"x16" for a total of 600 gallon. And wanna make a SPS / LPS coral frags system.
I wanted to know what you think is the best way for biological filtration and removal of nitrates? I don't want to use the DSB for an easier and faster maintenance of the tank. Currently I have only a few centimeters of sand and nothing else. I put 100 pounds of live rocks, is enough?... or should I make something else for the biological filtration?

Thanks and sorry for my english.

[whatcaneyedo]

An adequately sized protein skimmer removes fish waste and other dissolved organic matter before it breaks down into Nitrate. 100lbs of live rock could be enough if you don't include very many fish or very large fish.

[Fant4]

An adequately sized protein skimmer removes fish waste and other dissolved organic matter before it breaks down into Nitrate. 100lbs of live rock could be enough if you don't include very many fish or very large fish.

Forgot to say that i have a big skimmer too (3 sicce psk1000 - 2400 l/h air).

No fish, but have many corals... and the nitrate are 25/30 don't go down.

[Islander84]

How old is the system?

[dahenley]

Do you run filter socks? I ask, because if water is coming from the system dumping in the rock. Then you will have detritus settling in the bottom which will rot and cause nitrate problems.
Just an option...

[Fant4]

The system have 5 months.

I don't run filter socks. I need to add some socks (works for nitrate?)? Or i can add some movement pumps in the sump?...

[dahenley]

They don't remove nitrate.
They catch particles in the water that when settle can become nitrate.

You can out a powerhead in, but it can't get between and under all rocks....

Another option is to keep macro algae. (Cheato, calurpa, mangroves, and others)
they use nitrate to grow, and you just prune it back over time.

[Fant4]

Ok, i buy today some Cheato and put in the sump with the live rock.

Now i have to wait 3/4 week for see some results?

[dahenley]

Just depends on the amount of algae will depend on the removal rate.

Also. If you light the algae/refugium on an opposite light cycle of the coral tanks, it will help to prevent /lower the PH swings within the tank.

[Daemonfly]

For another option, you could always try an algal turf scrubber (ATS). Check the threads in advanced forum section, and see if it's something that interests you. You don't have fish, so would only need a rather small one, depending on how much you feed your corals.

[Fant4]

For another option, you could always try an algal turf scrubber (ATS). Check the threads in advanced forum section, and see if it's something that interests you. You don't have fish, so would only need a rather small one, depending on how much you feed your corals.

I see... if really work i can make one.

And a RDSB ????

How others coralfarm resolve the problem of biological filtration...

[jinks]

I would go with the RDSB. Easy do set up and you don't need to do much if anything to it. Also BRS have some ceramic blocks that look like they would work very well. I have not tried them yet as the $40 for the small one seemed overkill for a 20gal tank but the surface area on them is huge. Like makes bio balls look like a sand box in the desert huge. Being just a block it also removes the problem that bio balls have a trapping gunk in them.

[Fant4]

But others Coralfarms all use Live Rocks?

Now i try with RDSB and algae chaeto in the sump... just wait now.

[jinks]

Don't quote me on this but I think live rock is something used more in home frag tanks then larg coral farms. I would think the worrie of what you could introduce into the system would be to much of a risk for them. My guess would be skimming, fluidized sand bed(or something like it), maybe bio pellets, and a large amount of water change that comes through all that they are bagging up to sell.

[smsreefer]

I'm not wanting to start a debate with this, but it is hard to beat a DSB/RDSB in coral farming.
Just like any other method, they do require maintenance and up-keep such as keeping a good population of detritivores thriving in the DSB/RDSB.
Your nutrients will drop with the use of a properly maintained RDSB/DSB ,properly sized protein skimmer, carbon use and water changes.
[Chaeto use is a plus too if you already have it]
I'm not saying the above is the only way to do it,but it is a very cost effective system.
Just my opinion.
David

[jimmy frag]

i am not a fan of DSB, its just a compost. bio pelets, vinegar or vodka is great for nitrates and a phosphate reactor is a plus. you are wanting coral to grow quickly so water quality must be at its best.

[Fant4]

Jimmy i try with carbon but nitrate don't move!
Biopellets works for nitrate or is like carbon? In my tank how much ML need to use?

I try with a RDSB too.

[jimmy frag]

i would think that a 80ml bag of pellets would be fine, just start with half first as you will most likly get a bacteria bloom. RDSB is IMO just another spot for detrius to collect, decompose and in the end produce nitrate quicked than it can convert or consume it. read up on bio pellets before you jump on them. for me they work great.

[Fant4]

Sure 80ml bag? The system have 600 gallon...

[Paolo Piccinell]

I suggest a RDSB, maybe with the addition of a chaetomorpha chamber with 24/7 light.

Great as nutrient removal filter and as a food source for corals.

I am starting a frag tank that way just now

Di che parte d'Italia sei? :-)

[jimmy frag]

my system is a littlt bigger than yours and 80ml is working great.

[Fant4]

But if i remove all live rocks (i think my nitrate problem is for detritus in live rock) and use a biopellets reactor, i have read that all bacteria live in this biological support (pellets).... can work?

[jeff@zina.com]

The only two things that remove nitrates are a denitrator and export of the nitrates. Export is through water changes, algae scrubbers, macro algae harvests and so on. Denitration relies on bacteria, usually in a long coil.

Live rock, biopellets, depp sand beds, etc. provide minimal denitration.

Jeff

[jcw]

The only two things that remove nitrates are a denitrator and export of the nitrates. Export is through water changes, algae scrubbers, macro algae harvests and so on. Denitration relies on bacteria, usually in a long coil.

Live rock, biopellets, depp sand beds, etc. provide minimal denitration.

Jeff

Really?!

I've read so many people stripping their tanks of nutrients with biopellets.

Also, I thought the bacteria in the coil of a coil denitrator are actually nitrifying bacteria and the bacteria in the cannister are the denitrifying anaerobic bacteria?


I'd love to try a coil denitrator but I can't find a definite recommendations for flow rates, size, length.

[winona reef]

What is RDSB

[jimmy frag]

remote deap sand base... jeff, any carbon dosing is a proven method for removal of nitrates. i have been doing this for quite some time now with great resaults. water changes are for adding trace elements only. Jimmy

[whatcaneyedo]

water changes are for adding trace elements only.

While water changes do replace depleted trace elements they also help to remove dissolved organic waste. Its simple chemistry.

Fant4, what protein skimmer do you have? I'm just speculating here, but I did a quick google search but the largest skimmer I saw that ran 3 sicce psk1000 pumps was only rated for maximum 400gal. If that is your skimmer and you have a 600gal system that size simply isn't adequate. Also, attempting to use organic carbon dosing with an undersized skimmer could easily result in a system crash.

[jimmy frag]

sorry...for my system, water changes are for replacing depleted trace elements only. of. i agree water changes are a great way to remove organics and nitrates.

[sven.fischer.de]

Hi guys,

there was a long article in a print magazine in Germany that was about Chaetomorpha linum in refugium. The results of years of experiments was:

- they like warm light (2700k)
- as more light they get, as more Nitrate they absob, so it's easy to control the Nitrate level
- The effictiviness of for example 12 hours light 72 Watts is more than 24 h 36 Watts

Reagrds,

Sven

[sven.fischer.de]

Helo again,

active carbon does not remove (significant) amounts of Nitrates or Phosphates - usually after 48 hours the carbon it should be removed from aquarium. If not removed, it's a good surface for bacteria that can nitrify or denitrify (depends on oxygen levels and current).

Regards,

Sven

[jimmy frag]

Helo again,

active carbon does not remove (significant) amounts of Nitrates or Phosphates - usually after 48 hours the carbon it should be removed from aquarium. If not removed, it's a good surface for bacteria that can nitrify or denitrify (depends on oxygen levels and current).

Regards,

Sven Hey Sven...carbon dosing as in vinager, vodka and biopellets removes nitraes

[sven.fischer.de]

@jimmy frag

My source is the book ISBN 978-3-9810570-2-7 (German) from Armin Glaser who is a real Guru for salt water chemestry.

Well, anyone else has experience?

Cheers,

Sven

[whatcaneyedo]

@jimmy frag

My source is the book ISBN 978-3-9810570-2-7 (German) from Armin Glaser who is a real Guru for salt water chemestry.

Well, anyone else has experience?

Cheers,

Sven

I think you're confused. Or at least you're really confusing me. Jimmy frag is talking about organic carbon dosing and not activated carbon usage which are two completely different things. If you've never heard of organic carbon dosing here is an article you should read or at least skim over: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php

[Fant4]

Ok, now i change 20% water today and 20% Monday. For a total of 960 litr.

Then i use a Biopellets reactor and wait if works (Vertex pellets). Chaeto for now grows very slow.

[jeff@zina.com]

I've read so many people stripping their tanks of nutrients with biopellets.
Basically, Biopellets are just a form of carbon dosing. Vodka works as well. But what they do is feed the denitrifying bacteria the carbon needed in their diet.

Technically, they do take care of nitrates and phosphates. In reality, there are many times they don't work as intended. It's really hard to produce something like ammonia in an environment and have it eventually converted into something totally inert or even back into pure water. At some point in the stage you can make it less toxic, but it's a closed system and really needs to be removed. Whether it's in the form of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate or whatever, in a closed system, if you add it, you eventually need to remove it.

All of this really depends on system design and maintenance.

To address Jimmy Frag's comments, biopellets can work. They are a lot easier to deal with than other forms of carbon dosing, but in the end any form of carbon (not activated carbon, which is an adsorbent) dosing can be hard to monitor and often isn't. If you do it routinely, you can get it managed by "feel" but you will have a hard time dealing with carbon dosing if you're not religious about it.

FWIW, I do run biopellets as part of my overall setup.

Jeff