Pairing Clownfish

[JHardman]

One of the most common questions on RC is “how do I pair clownfish”. Pairing clownfish can be a troublesome thing to do or very easy to do. Here are a few things that might help you in this task.

1) You need to understand clownfish sex change and how that effects pairing and interaction. Please refer to http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=215088 page for sexing FAQ. For further information.

a. Briefly, clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites. They are hatched as sexually immature fish. Based on signals from their environment and being physically mature (12-24 months) they will either remain sexually immature, change into a male or change into a male then female. This is a one way trip, sexless to male never to be sexless again and male to female never to be male again.

b. A clownfish kept by its self will become a female in a short period of time if it is physically mature, in as little as a month.

2) Two female clowns will fight. The tell tale sign that you have two females is fighting ending in the two locking their mouths together.

Clownfish pairing techniques:
There are a couple of proven techniques to pair same species of clownfish. Mixing species of clownfish should be avoided and has very limited long term (multi-year) success (only one case that I know of and could be considered unsuccessful as at least one clownfish was killed by another clownfish in the tank).

Grow out technique:
With this technique two small juvenile clownfish are purchased at the same time and introduced into the tank at the same time. The fish will establish a dominate submissive relationship as they mature and eventually form a pair bond. This technique works the vast majority of the time.

Notes: Since the fish are going to fight and/or chase each other to establish who is the dominate fish and who is the submissive fish, it will often speed the pairing process and reduce fighting and potential damage to the fish by getting one of the two juveniles larger than the other.

This technique should not be applied to Premnas species (maroon) clownfish.

Add a new clownfish to an existing clownfish technique:
With having an existing clownfish in your tank adding a new clownfish to form a pair can be a little harder or in other words more dangerous to the new fish. The technique is basically the same as the grow out technique. You will want to find a small juvenile clownfish and add it to the tank with the existing tank. By getting a small juvenile fish you are not risking possible sex compatibility problems, e.g. two females.

Example: Existing 3” A. Ocellaris clownfish that has been in the tank by it’s self for over a year. We can assume this fish is a female based on size, age and environment. A ¾” to 1 ½” juvenile from a community tank is added to the tank. The vast majority of the time the new fish will submit to the existing fish with little or no fighting at all.

This technique should not be applied to Premnas species (maroon) clownfish.

Paring Premnas species clownfish (maroon clownfish):
Pairing maroon clowns is much more problematic than pairing Amphiprion species clownfish. Maroons are notorious for being very aggressive towards other clownfish. They are pretty much fearless and will only back down from an all out fight when presented with the overwhelming threat of death.

Separation Technique:
The only technique I am aware of that works the vast majority of the time with the least amount of damage as possible to use a separation and slow acclimation process to introduce a poetical mate to a maroon clownfish.

First you need to have a large female already established in your tank before trying a pairing. The clownfish should be at least 3” from nose to start of the cardinal fin. Next you will need to do a little preparation before buying a potential mate for your maroon. You need something to securely separate the two fish in the same tank while still allowing the fish to see each other and the new fish to get water flow. You can use a clear plastic specimen container with holes drilled in it for example.

Now go to the LFS and find the smallest juvenile maroon from a community tank that you can find. It should be no larger than 1” nose to start of cardinal fin. Acclimate the new maroon just as you would any other fish. Once the new maroon is acclimated to your tanks water, place the new maroon in the specimen container. Let the two fish see each other, place the specimen container near the females territory. Carefully watch the female’s behavior. If she is trying to attack the new fish thru the container, it is not safe to release the new maroon. Give her time to cool off from the disruption to her tank and addition of a foreign clownfish in her tank.

Now that the female has cooled her temper it is time to try an introduction. Get your favorite fish net ready and release the new maroon to the tank. If the fighting gets too bad you will need to rescue the new maroon and place it back in the container and try the next day. If after three failed attempts you can write off the new maroon as incompatible and you will need a new juvenile to try with.

Submissive behavior in clownfish:
As a part of pairing you need to know what submissive behavior is. You will know that you are well on your way to a successful pairing when one fish submits to the other fish. This is especially important behavior to observe in maroon clownfish.

Amphiprion and Premnas species submissive behavior goes something like this… First the dominate fish will rush or otherwise attack the submissive fish. The submissive fish will turn sideways to the dominate fish and tilt its belly towards the dominate fish and quiver like an epileptic seizure. The female should recognize this behavior and stop the attack short of actual damage. Sometimes in new pairings and old well established pair bonds the dominate fish will move to a parallel position to the submissive and quiver back to the submissive fish.

In Premnas species there is an additional submissive behavior that is unique to maroons. When the submissive fish is rushed or otherwise attacked it/he will duck the attack, slip to the side of the female and tenderly kiss her cheek spines and pectoral fins of his beloved female.

Signs that you have a pair bond in your clownfish:
There are a couple of signs that a pair bond has formed and is maturing in your clownfish in addition to submissive behavior. Typically mated pairs (pairs that have a pair bond) will sleep in the same area. They will also host in the same host or stay in the same territory if there is no natural host present. The two fish will stay close to each other the vast majority of the time.

The pair bond is a developing thing. It starts out as a general acceptance of each other. Then slowly develops into a closer relationship were both fish are together most of the time. There is a bickering phase too where the female will make sure the male knows who is the boss. During this time it is not uncommon to find the poor little dejected male cowering near their normal host/territory. But don’t worry this is normal and the male will be accepted back sooner or later. The ultimate end of the pair bond is seen in a spawning event such as nest cleaning or laying of eggs.

References; Clownfishes by Joyce Wilkerson, Anemonefishes by Dr. Gerald Allen, Conditioning spawning and rearing of fish with emphasis on marine clownfish by Dr. Frank Hoff.

[Project Reef]

Sticky on this one too.

[jimmy007]

JHardman

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Seem like you got this whole thing master.

Jimmy

[The Aquarist]

Awesome job on that .... as only a Rare Clownfish Freak can do I guess! I learned a couple of extra tid bits I didn't know. It's great having those info pieces brought together like that to put things in perspective. I had to print that one out for keeping. Thanks.

[chicorodriguez]

hmmm... That sounds pretty good, but after reading the linked post and this, I am wondering

1) If with two hosts, one could have both regular and black oscellaris? (I know you say to have more than one kind, but I am confused on the differences between a black and a regular)

2) Will a male/female pair form if there are more than just two clowns in the tank (of the same type)?

3) If you do have 3+ clows (say all oscellaris) will they all share the same host? if it was big enough, of course?

Thanks!

- CR

[JHardman]

Originally posted by chicorodriguez
hmmm... That sounds pretty good, but after reading the linked post and this, I am wondering

1) If with two hosts, one could have both regular and black oscellaris? (I know you say to have more than one kind, but I am confused on the differences between a black and a regular)

2) Will a male/female pair form if there are more than just two clowns in the tank (of the same type)?

3) If you do have 3+ clows (say all oscellaris) will they all share the same host? if it was big enough, of course?

Thanks!

- CR

1) There are very few cases of long term success with keeping multiple pairs of clowns. The one case that I am most familiar with has been running for about 5 years and to date has only had one fish killed. I don't recommend trying it; it is very rare that it works out long term. Remember clowns can live for decades.

The difference between black A. Ocellaris and orange A. Ocellaris is just that, one is primarily black and the other orange. They are the same species of clownfish.

2) Yes a pair will form. However it takes considerably longer and may result in much more fighting and damage especially to the odd man out fish.

3) Depends on the fish. If all added at the same time the chances are better.

HTH

[mogurnda]

This is wonderful. I did the two juvenile method for my ocellaris, and they are now spawning regularly. Now I'll know where to point people who want to pair Premnas.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by mogurnda
This is wonderful. I did the two juvenile method for my ocellaris, and they are now spawning regularly. Now I'll know where to point people who want to pair Premnas.

Love the avatar! I wish they hadn't canceled the series. It would have been really nice if someone like ShowTime or HBO would have picked it up... :rolleyes:

[mogurnda]

I wish they hadn't canceled the series. Me too, although the 4th season was kind of lame. The first two seasons were truly brilliant.

[chicorodriguez]

JHardman, thanks for the information. can I assume then, that you could have a black and an orange A. Ocellaris in the same tank? would they pair?

- CR

[JHardman]

Originally posted by chicorodriguez
JHardman, thanks for the information. can I assume then, that you could have a black and an orange A. Ocellaris in the same tank? would they pair?

- CR

Pretty likely since they are the same species. Just use the techniques I talk about above and you should be fine.

[Skipper]

Stuck to the top. :D

[MPA]

I have been toying with the idea of getting a pair of true percs and trying to breed them in my 100g. They would be the only fish in the tank (x-cept 4 snails, maybe zenia & sand sifting stars.). Could you give me some advice on how I should start or direct me to a site that I can really read up on this first?

Thank's...

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MPA
I have been toying with the idea of getting a pair of true percs and trying to breed them in my 100g. They would be the only fish in the tank (x-cept 4 snails, maybe zenia & sand sifting stars.). Could you give me some advice on how I should start or direct me to a site that I can really read up on this first?

Thank's...

If you would start a new thread on the subject as it is a complex subject that goes well beyond the scope of this post. I am sure others besides myself will be glad to reply. :D

[Amphiprionclarkii]

I was considering getting getting a second ocellaris for my current one that's been in my tank a while (well, six months). The thing is that I only have a 30 gal. tank. I know that ocellaris can be more peaceful than others (clowns), but do you think that would work, or should the clown be left alone?
Also, I have in there a huge (at least 12" not even fully opened) BTA that the clown hosts in. I don't know whether the size of the host affects pairing chances, but might it, and if so, for good or for worse?

Also, not very related, as soon as the clown startes hosting, he ( or I guess I should say she) started darkening in color. Is this a normal side effect of hosting, because I have noticed that all the hosting clowns at the LFS are darker.

[barebottoms]

Since you're getting a "second" ocellaris, I assume that the first is also an ocellaris. So the "pairing" rules apply, and should be easy.

As to the coloration, fish go through stages in life and change barring and coloration through the stages. Much like my gray hair and wrinkles now that I'm 7 years old versus when I was three (yesterday) :D

It could be from hosting, but I think it is more of growing up.

[kris4647]

I'm glad to see this got a sticky. John did a great job on this post


:thumbsup:

[yachtboy14]

can anyone breed one fem. reg.oscellaris and one male black oscellaris together if someone can what do they look like

[skippy]

I basically used the Separation Technique to introduce my smaller GB Maroon to my larger one. It started as a move I had to make due to moving some tanks around. I had to put him in the tank with my established female and built a large rock wall so as not to have them finding each other right off the bat. They both had their own anemone and stayed very close to them. I figured this would pretty much keep them apart for awhile. After about a week I had to move a rock in the tank and they saw one another!

Thats pretty much it, the submission began and I eventually (a few days later) moved his BTA over to the area they are living in now. She made him sleep on a rock ledge for about 2 days before she let him anywhere near her anemone. I felt sorry for the little fellow. LOL. I find them sleeping together in her anemone. I notice that she feeds both anemones where as he doesn't feed either one.

It was a very interesting night watching this submissive behavior.
I watched them carefully for several hours that night to make sure she wasn't going to kill him. But I could tell right off that she was going to be ok with the situation. I have seen other clowns not accept one another and they totally go after them as though they are going to kill or really show distast for them being near. If you have seen anyone try to pair clowns more than once you will know what I mean (especially maroons).

Kip

[Tagamet]

A fellow recently posted to my saltwater list that it was ok to put a "school' of clowns (>5) into a tank all at once and that one the female and male were established that the others would be ok.
Is this true? I just need to be sure before I try to respond to him further. (I asked for a reference to support his thought.)
Tagamet

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Tagamet
A fellow recently posted to my saltwater list that it was ok to put a "school' of clowns (>5) into a tank all at once and that one the female and male were established that the others would be ok.
Is this true? I just need to be sure before I try to respond to him further. (I asked for a reference to support his thought.)
Tagamet

In the short term yes it will work. In the long term, in a confined environment, it may result in problems. In the wild, clownfish form hierarchies with a mature breeding pair and lower ranking sexless fish. The lower ranking fish will try to promote themselves sooner or later. This is not a problem within the ranks of the sexless fish, however when a member of the breeding pair is challenged, the challenger will either succeed by driving off or killing it's rival, or it will fail in its challenge and be driven off or killed. And this is where it can become a problem in a confined tank environment, no place to be driven off to...

Something that so many people forget about when they start thinking about doing a hierarchy of clowns. Clownfish can live for decades and having a more or less peaceful hierarchy for a few months or even a couple of years is no great measure of success considering these fish can live 10-30 years.

I have yet to hear of any credible stories of long term successes in keeping a hierarchy in anything less than a public aquarium sized tank. I am not saying it is not possible, but so far no one has stepped up and said “I have six A. whatever_species of clownfish in the same tank for five years without any deaths or stress related disease outbreaks”.

[Tagamet]

Jhardman,
Thanks so much for the reply. I'll cut and paste it off to the list.

On a VERY happy note, I just got an email notifying me that the bonded pair of tank raised, adult Clarkii clowns I ordered from ORA are in Pittsburgh, where I'll pick them up this weekend. They have spawned twice already at ORA, so I'm really stoked! It's only an 8 hour drive from my place to Pittsburgh and back, so they'll only have a 4 hour "ride" to get to their new home.
Tagamet

[sharpy98]

Sweet thread...... Thank you

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Tagamet
Jhardman,
On a VERY happy note, I just got an email notifying me that the bonded pair of tank raised, adult Clarkii clowns I ordered from ORA are in Pittsburgh, where I'll pick them up this weekend. They have spawned twice already at ORA, so I'm really stoked! It's only an 8 hour drive from my place to Pittsburgh and back, so they'll only have a 4 hour "ride" to get to their new home.
Tagamet

UhOh! Now I'm hearing that the clowns are huge. The female is 4 inches and the male 3 inches. I was going to use a 40 gallon tank as their love nest. Now I'm wondering if that will be large enough. I have a 58 and a 120 I could use, but those tanks would be far less manageable than the 40. Do you think that I can get away with using the 40 with a 20 sump, or will this be too small? Would there be any drawback to trying them in the 40 and moving them to a larger tank if they don't spawn?
TIA,
Tagamet

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Tagamet
UhOh! Now I'm hearing that the clowns are huge. The female is 4 inches and the male 3 inches. I was going to use a 40 gallon tank as their love nest. Now I'm wondering if that will be large enough. I have a 58 and a 120 I could use, but those tanks would be far less manageable than the 40. Do you think that I can get away with using the 40 with a 20 sump, or will this be too small? Would there be any drawback to trying them in the 40 and moving them to a larger tank if they don't spawn?
TIA,
Tagamet

You should be fine with the 40g. The place you got them from likely had them in a 20g cube before they sold them to you. The important part is being able to keep the water parameters up, which you should be able to do with 60g volume, all that LR you have in the sump and a good skimmer.

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by JHardman
You should be fine with the 40g. The place you got them from likely had them in a 20g cube before they sold them to you. The important part is being able to keep the water parameters up, which you should be able to do with 60g volume, all that LR you have in the sump and a good skimmer.

Thanks, yet again. I'll keep the group posted on "our" progress.
Tagamet

[Amphiprionclarkii]

I finally caved in and got another perc at the LFS like I was wanting to do. We (including the guys at the LFS) were all nervous about whether or not my clown would kill the newcomer. Anyway, I got a very small (1" at most) perc and brought it home. As soon as I let it out of the bag, he swam over to the female and there wasn't the slightest sign of agression. They both got into the same host on the first day! JHardman, I salute you for this thread!

A. clarkii

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Tagamet
Thanks, yet again. I'll keep the group posted on "our" progress.
Tagamet

I just returned from a 9 hour drive from NC and was up until 5 a.m. working on the LATEST MESS. I returned to find that a seal on my clownfish system had broken and drained about 35 gallons of water on the floor. Thankfully it was the sump's seal, so the fish tank just drained down to the outlet of their tank and the clowns are ok (so far). Even though I was at it until the wee hours. I am no way near done working on restoring circulation. I'm taking a break to get my heart rate down (coronaries run in my family), so I thought I'd vent here with my "progress". I don't know whether to spit or cry or both. Boy, that sounded less than manly.
Jawsette did eat exactly 2 mysis shrimp before I left for NC, but none today that I could tell. The water quality is still ok, but I'll swap out 5 gallons with fresh today, just to be safe (er).
Tag
PS AND we lost the soccer game.

[moorediddy]

Slap me if this is extremely obvious, but I wanted to make sure....

If I get two young males, one should make the switch to female after a little dominance game, right?

-moore

[Tagamet]

Originally posted by Tagamet
I just returned from a 9 hour drive from NC and was up until 5 a.m. working on the LATEST MESS. I returned to find that a seal on my clownfish system had broken and drained about 35 gallons of water on the floor. Thankfully it was the sump's seal, so the fish tank just drained down to the outlet of their tank and the clowns are ok (so far). Even though I was at it until the wee hours. I am no way near done working on restoring circulation. I'm taking a break to get my heart rate down (coronaries run in my family), so I thought I'd vent here with my "progress". I don't know whether to spit or cry or both. Boy, that sounded less than manly.
Jawsette did eat exactly 2 mysis shrimp before I left for NC, but none today that I could tell. The water quality is still ok, but I'll swap out 5 gallons with fresh today, just to be safe (er).
Tag
PS AND we lost the soccer game.

Well, The rug is almost dry and sleeping on the couch is getting a little better, but the really good news is that Jaws and Jawsette are both looking ok and now both are eating- even flake. This might still work out.
I'm putting out a book on my new method of water changes, but my publisher says that it won't be a big seller with the spousal population...

Tagamet.
PS Guess what! We go away for soccer AGAIN this weekend. Be still my heart. I can only guess what I'll come home to this time (g)
PPS Hotel beds are softer than couches.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by moorediddy
Slap me if this is extremely obvious, but I wanted to make sure....

If I get two young males, one should make the switch to female after a little dominance game, right?

-moore

I am assuming that you are under the impression that clownfish are hatched as males, which is incorrect. Read the "sexing clownfish" link in the first post of this thread for the details.

If I am wrong in my assumption... Yes if you place two males in the same tank, one will establish dominance and become female.

[moorediddy]

I've read this whole post, along with the FAQ on sexing. I'm fully aware of the "one way" journey they take, from unsexed to male, to female. Sorry if I sounded like I was too lazy to read, but I wanted to make sure about this, since it wasn't specifically mentioned. I was hoping to get two YOUNG ocellaris, but the store claims that most of their young fish are already sexed. So, I will most likely be getting two males, and just wanted to be SURE it wasn't a problem. I figured one would just change, but wasn't sure because in the Grow Out Technique, it sounded like you were referring to pre-sexed fish.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion, it was a stupid question.

Thanks again for these informative posts on clowns, they've helped a lot.

-moore

[JHardman]

Originally posted by moorediddy
I've read this whole post, along with the FAQ on sexing. I'm fully aware of the "one way" journey they take, from unsexed to male, to female. Sorry if I sounded like I was too lazy to read, but I wanted to make sure about this, since it wasn't specifically mentioned. I was hoping to get two YOUNG ocellaris, but the store claims that most of their young fish are already sexed. So, I will most likely be getting two males, and just wanted to be SURE it wasn't a problem. I figured one would just change, but wasn't sure because in the Grow Out Technique, it sounded like you were referring to pre-sexed fish.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion, it was a stupid question.

Thanks again for these informative posts on clowns, they've helped a lot.

-moore

Unless your LFS is buying just the male half of an established pairing or are splitting pairs when they come in, then you are buying sexless fish just like everyone else. Assuming they are all in a community tank and <2" you can safely assume they are all sexless and not physically mature enough to even change yet. Worst case is that one fish has ruled the herd long enough to become female, but that is very rare and would take an exceptional fish to totally dominate a large group of fish long enough to mature and become male then female.

No it is not a stupid question at all. You were going on what the LFS said, which is highly doubtful. They are likely under the impression that clownfish are hatched as males, like many LFS out there. Or they think that at a certain age/size they change sex, which is also incorrect. I would like to know how they think they are sexing the clownfish. :lol: They only way to know 100% for sure if one fish is a male or a female is to see them spawn and lay eggs or produce sperm. In an established pair you can safely assume 99% of the time that one is male and the other is female. But with a large group of clowns in a community tank at the LFS, it is VERY VERY unlikely you could assign a sex to any fish in there. :lol:

[KillerReef]

First of all, this thread is awesome. Thank you JHardman for the wonderful information.

Currently, I have an A. percula, approx. 1.5-2". I have had him/her/it for about 6 months. He originally came as a smaller half of a pair, but he is far from being sexually mature, so I would guess it is still an "it".

Anyways, according to LiveAquaria.com, what they have are black and white PERCULA (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=1114) I really would like one of these for a partner for my current clown, not necessarily for mating, but for friendship. Currently, there are no other fish in the tank.

I have also read in another thread that using either of your above techniques, there should be no problem mixing A. ocellaris and A. percula, if the good doctors are misinformed.(I emailed them regarding this, and they stated "We are informed by our vendor that they are Black and White Percula

BTW, there is currently no host and I do not plan to get one.

TIA,
Dave

[JHardman]

Originally posted by KillerReef
First of all, this thread is awesome. Thank you JHardman for the wonderful information.

Currently, I have an A. percula, approx. 1.5-2". I have had him/her/it for about 6 months. He originally came as a smaller half of a pair, but he is far from being sexually mature, so I would guess it is still an "it".

Anyways, according to LiveAquaria.com, what they have are black and white PERCULA (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=1114) I really would like one of these for a partner for my current clown, not necessarily for mating, but for friendship. Currently, there are no other fish in the tank.

I have also read in another thread that using either of your above techniques, there should be no problem mixing A. ocellaris and A. percula, if the good doctors are misinformed.(I emailed them regarding this, and they stated "We are informed by our vendor that they are Black and White Percula

BTW, there is currently no host and I do not plan to get one.

TIA,
Dave

Hi Dave

LA is wrong, and their breeder knows better. Those fish come from TCM in England and they know they are black A. ocellaris. The problem is most likely species name versus common name. Frankly most LFS wouldn’t know the difference between a species name and common name if it bit them in the ***.

Anyway at 2" your "it" is most likely a she now, especially if she came in as part of an existing bonded pair. You shouldn't have a problem pairing the black A. ocellaris with an A. percula.

[KillerReef]

Thanks for the quick reply, that is what I was hoping to hear. One last question, would I be better off paying the extra $10 to Etropicals to get their USA tank raised black clown (http://www.etropicals.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=41&pCatId=1318) , which they state as an A. Ocellaris BTW, or is it all the same?

[JohnM99]

I have 2 small clowns, bought from LFS from a tank with 30 or more originally, captive raised, which were a bit less than 1" when bought. One was very slightly larger than the other.

They have not fought much at all - occaisional dance of the smaller one chasing the larger - darting towards it only about 2-4 inches - no biting - the larger one looking a bit submissive. But, they swim together all day, and sleep close to each other at night.

I did notice that they both fed well at first, but in a couple of days the larger one did not feed as much as the smaller one - the smaller one was lively, and zipped around sampling everything - the larger one seemed to be a bit "inhibited" - it would start to swim towards a food particle, get close, and then stop - and not ingest it.

After 2 weeks, the larger one has resumed eating more vigorously - everything else seems fine, water test fine, etc.

My question is - was this dip in feeding just a feature of a fish getting acclimated to a new tank, or was it perhaps the start of a dominance pattern? Was this slightly larger one becoming established as the male, and deferring in feeding a bit to the female?

Thanks
John

[JHardman]

Originally posted by JohnM99
My question is - was this dip in feeding just a feature of a fish getting acclimated to a new tank, or was it perhaps the start of a dominance pattern? Was this slightly larger one becoming established as the male, and deferring in feeding a bit to the female?

Thanks
John

At this point neither have changed sex yet, they are not old enough.

It is hard to say if the feeding behavior is the result of acclimation stress or dominance issues. If the slightly smaller fish was competing for the food and the larger did not eat as a result, then yes you can safely assume it was a result of dominance behavior.

What you are using is a grow out technique since there is not a significant difference in size. With this technique the dominate fish will generally be the larger fish, but it is quite possible that the small will be dominate and sooner or later out grow the larger fish.

From what you describe they are still acting like they are in a large group with neither really getting after the relationship building. This will end sooner or later, likely when they are 110% comfortable with the new tank. It sounds like they are compatible, and you should have a good pair in a couple of months.

HTH

[MFish]

I already have one occelaris in my tank. The 'Introducing a new clwon' technique would be the way for me to go, so would my current female [if it is infact a female, as I've only had her 2 weeks] become a male when I add a smaller occelaris?

(The wording of the technique was somewhat confusing, sorry if this sounds stupid)

~Mike

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MFish
I already have one occelaris in my tank. The 'Introducing a new clwon' technique would be the way for me to go, so would my current female [if it is infact a female, as I've only had her 2 weeks] become a male when I add a smaller occelaris?

(The wording of the technique was somewhat confusing, sorry if this sounds stupid)

~Mike

Clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites, sexless to male to female on a one way trip, no going back.

So when you add a smaller fish to pair with your current fish, they will work out who is dominate (likely the larger) and the dominate fish will become male then rapidly female when old enough. The submissive fish will become male. The dominate fish will grow (depending on species) to be the larger of the pair.

HTH

[JHardman]

Here is another thread that shows an example of a successful pairing of an extremely aggressive female maroon. The keeper had a hard time, but with a little modification to the maroon separation technique, he was able to pair his fish.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201433

[waligorar]

So far, I've read a lot about breeding, but nothing about what happens next. So, you get a pair of Occelaris to mate and have 100 baby clowns. What next? It sounds like you can't keep them, because they will eventually start to fight. So I assume the only option is to sell them back to the fish store. What other options are there? Also, what do you feed them? Flake food, or do most people raise food?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by waligorar
So far, I've read a lot about breeding, but nothing about what happens next. So, you get a pair of Occelaris to mate and have 100 baby clowns. What next? It sounds like you can't keep them, because they will eventually start to fight. So I assume the only option is to sell them back to the fish store. What other options are there? Also, what do you feed them? Flake food, or do most people raise food?

Your post would be most appropriate as a new thread. Would you report the question to the clownfish forum, and I will be glad to answer it. But it is off topic for this thread.

[yachtboy14]

hardmen you worte early that.........
In the short term yes it will work. In the long term, in a confined environment, it may result in problems. In the wild, clownfish form hierarchies with a mature breeding pair and lower ranking sexless fish. The lower ranking fish will try to promote themselves sooner or later. This is not a problem within the ranks of the sexless fish, however when a member of the breeding pair is challenged, the challenger will either succeed by driving off or killing it's rival, or it will fail in its challenge and be driven off or killed. And this is where it can become a problem in a confined tank environment, no place to be driven off to

but there are tanks that are combined together with a clear tube is it possb. to have a group of clowns in this type of tank where one of the fish could be run off to the other tank bc the groups terr. ends at the beg. of the tube

[kris4647]

I think what John is trying to say here is, this thread is meant to be informational in regards to general pairing issues/strategies with clownfish. It kinda muddies the waters if it grows to 10 pages of different questions regarding isolated or specific issues. Those questions are better posed in the general "anenomes and clownfish forum" as a seperate thread.

Not trying to dissuade anyone from joining this thread or being negative, just sharing an opinion. Having raised and paired many different types of clowns I can tell you it's one of the most rewarding, fascinating things I've ever done. Good Luck

[JHardman]

Originally posted by kris4647
I think what John is trying to say here is, this thread is meant to be informational in regards to general pairing issues/strategies with clownfish. It kinda muddies the waters if it grows to 10 pages of different questions regarding isolated or specific issues. Those questions are better posed in the general "anenomes and clownfish forum" as a seperate thread.

Not trying to dissuade anyone from joining this thread or being negative, just sharing an opinion. Having raised and paired many different types of clowns I can tell you it's one of the most rewarding, fascinating things I've ever done. Good Luck

Ditto.

In fact the "quote" is from another FAQ post on mixing clowns.

Just so people know, I will not reply to "off topic" questions in these FAQ posts. The last thing we need is another “Everything you ever wanted to know about South Down” type of run on post here in the clownfish FAQ posts. Like Kris has suggested, these last couple of questions should have either been asked in the main forum as a new post or in the thread in which the question directly applies to.

[reef fanatic]

great post and educational too :)

[yachtboy14]

hardmen you still have not said anything about what I said

[JHardman]

Originally posted by yachtboy14
hardmen you still have not said anything about what I said

That would be because it is off topic for this post and in fact from another FAQ post I made. If you would like an answer post it to the post your copied it from.

BTW, the name Hardman. If you are going to call me by my last name like some drill sargent yelling for a fool, at least get it right.

[jinnjia]

I am sorry, have a quick question here.
Can the female (maroon) turn into male ?
I should have read this great tread before I purchased the new maroon.

What happen is this, I have a single maroon in the tank, from the reading I understand she must be a female, but the problem is the new maroon I just got, is a little bigger and seems to be more dominating, so judging from this, will my old maroon eventually change its sex to male ? of course this is if they can get along together.

Thank you thank you~

[KillerReef]

I'm sorry to say it, and I may be wrong, but no, she will not turn into male, once female, there is no going back. The best hope for your situation is that your "old" maroon is not yet female and the normal pairing will develop. (hopefully)

Otherwise, I believe they will probably fight until death. I personally would remove the new clown and follow Jhardman's info on pairing maroon clowns to a "T"...

HTH

[jinnjia]

To : KillerReef

Got it !
Thanks for the clarification, although my old maroon is still yet pretty small, about 2 inches, but compare to the new maroon, her color is much darker, meaning she gotta be a she.

Will it be possible the new maroon will turn into a HE ?
But then again since the new one is bigger and a lot more dominant, I am guessing most likely that wont happen right ?

If that is the case, I will exchange the new one with a much smaller maroon if possible.

But for some reason, my old maroon was never aggresive and dominant, sometimes even the anemone crab would chase her out of the anemone, hahahaha, but by night time, they will sleep together.

Thanks again for all your great help !

[JHardman]

Originally posted by jinnjia
I am sorry, have a quick question here.
Can the female (maroon) turn into male ?
I should have read this great tread before I purchased the new maroon.

What happen is this, I have a single maroon in the tank, from the reading I understand she must be a female, but the problem is the new maroon I just got, is a little bigger and seems to be more dominating, so judging from this, will my old maroon eventually change its sex to male ? of course this is if they can get along together.

Thank you thank you~

As Oama mentioned on the same question in the sexing clownfish thread. No, it is a one way trip.

How big are the two fish in question? If they are both big, you will likely not have a successful pairing. You should consider taking one back and using the separation technique outlined above for pairing maroons.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by jinnjia
To : KillerReef

Got it !
Thanks for the clarification, although my old maroon is still yet pretty small, about 2 inches, but compare to the new maroon, her color is much darker, meaning she gotta be a she.

Will it be possible the new maroon will turn into a HE ?
But then again since the new one is bigger and a lot more dominant, I am guessing most likely that wont happen right ?

If that is the case, I will exchange the new one with a much smaller maroon if possible.

But for some reason, my old maroon was never aggresive and dominant, sometimes even the anemone crab would chase her out of the anemone, hahahaha, but by night time, they will sleep together.

Thanks again for all your great help !

It is almost unheard of to have a male maroon that is >2" so my guess is that both of your fish are female and will likely fight to the death.

You really need to have a female of about 3.5"+ to have an easy(ier) pairing with maroons. If the fish that intend to keep is only 2", you should consider growing her out to about 3.5" before trying a pairing.

[jinnjia]

Got it !!!
I think I will return the new maroon at earliest.

And now I am just wondering, and not sure if that this is common and true, notice most maroon which LFS carry, are always kept singly along in those dividers, I am guessing because maroons are much more aggressive compare to other clowns.

So now here is the question, if they were already kept single before I purchased them, meaning they should already turn into female ? and unlike other clowns, for some reason most maroons I seen from the LFS are already pretty big, so does it mean it may be pretty tough of find a sexless/male maroon from the LFS ?

To provide more detail, my old maroon is about 1 & 3/4 inch big, shy, had it for more than 6 month. The new maroon is about 2 inches big, brighter than than my old one, a lot more aggresive and dominant. I seen the new one chase the old one, but never really got into mouth biting.

Old one was already hosting a bulb anemone, and the new one seems to like the new anmoney I just got too.

Thanks always !!
:~)

[JHardman]

Originally posted by jinnjia
Got it !!!
I think I will return the new maroon at earliest.

And now I am just wondering, and not sure if that this is common and true, notice most maroon which LFS carry, are always kept singly along in those dividers, I am guessing because maroons are much more aggressive compare to other clowns.

So now here is the question, if they were already kept single before I purchased them, meaning they should already turn into female ? and unlike other clowns, for some reason most maroons I seen from the LFS are already pretty big, so does it mean it may be pretty tough of find a sexless/male maroon from the LFS ?

To provide more detail, my old maroon is about 1 & 3/4 inch big, shy, had it for more than 6 month. The new maroon is about 2 inches big, brighter than than my old one, a lot more aggresive and dominant. I seen the new one chase the old one, but never really got into mouth biting.

Old one was already hosting a bulb anemone, and the new one seems to like the new anmoney I just got too.

Thanks always !!
:~)

It is not common to keep juvenile CB maroons separated, however it is common to keep WC this way. I would recommend you get CB fish. With WC, you risk disease, parasites, poor acclimation, etc, etc and for pairing you have no idea of the fish's age.

Grow your current fish out to at least 3.5" and then find a CB juvenile that is about 3/4".

HTH

[maroun.c]

Hi, got 1 maroon and 2 clarckiis in the tank (and lots of questions)themaroon was the oldest one in the tank, i once found a small mate for her and she accceptes him rather easily using the separation technique, he got accepted only one day after introduction and was llowed to her sleeping place. after that the male got ich from a newlyintroduced fish and died in the Q tank with 2 other fish. i couldn't find a mate for her for 5-6 months so i got 2 small clarckis and introduced them to the tank with she in and she beated them for a week that they spent behind a powerhead fighting among themselves to place each other in front of her. after that they managed to get one part of the tank and a few months later dominated the maroon that was beaten, torned fins dominated to teh point where it stopped feeding....so i removed it to the Q tank. took a few months to recover and fatten up by that time i got a bubble tip for the clarcki and got 2 green crpets and a blue one from a friendtearingup his tank. so i thought that as now the clarcki had their own limited territory in the bta may be the maroon can be introduced i put him in. she recieved mino beating and ended taking a territory for her. then she hosted in the 2 green adn blue carpets that were at the edge of the tank. a little far from the bta but however they faced each other a few times a day and ended by limitting the territory. a few months after that the maroon is getting a bit more evil and even chases my big semicirculatus away from his anemones more aggressively than the clarcki pair do. also it took over the bta and seems to prefer it mostthan his carpets. the clarcki were chased of to the green carpet on the other edge of the tank and it's now piece as every one sticks to their territory that are well defended.
now my questions are:
the clarcki i got were at the smae size and smaller than an inch. now they are near 2 -2.5 inch and they haven't spawned yet. one of them showed clear dominance and was growing clearly bigger than the other for a year may be but now the smaller one has grown and they are the same size. is it necesary to have size difference always in the pair or will it resolve as both grow at the end? they sleep in the sam anemone and lately have been doing a strange thing they put their mouth on the rock near the anemone and always at 2 definit locations and they start swimming against the rock as if they are cleaning it, does that indicate anything to come? no fighting however one of them seems to show the other who's the boss from time to time but I never saw that locking mouth position you talke about previously.
do you thinkn it's apair and i should just wait for them to spawn?
Now my biggest issue lies in that i would like to have a mate for the maroon clown and here are my question:
should i quarantine the nwe addition for 4 weeks before addition to the tank or will it turn into a female if left that long in the Q tank?
i know i should get the smallest maroon i can find so if it's so small will it change sex if alone ow should it still be old enough to be able to change sex?
what also worries me as they are put in separate tanks at the lfs but i could always show aup at the day they recieve fish hoping that they are kept together prior to being shipped to us.
also if i get a really small one do you think it'l stand a chance in front of the clarcki pair?
Sorry lots of question but i wold really appreciate your help as i wouldn't want to risk fish if there is no acceptable chance that it could work

[JHardman]

Originally posted by maroun.c
should i quarantine the nwe addition for 4 weeks before addition to the tank or will it turn into a female if left that long in the Q tank?

I always recommend QT'ing new fish for 4-6 weeks.

Originally posted by maroun.c
i know i should get the smallest maroon i can find so if it's so small will it change sex if alone ow should it still be old enough to be able to change sex?
If you buy a CB fish that is 3/4" to 1 1/2" it will still be a juvenile that is too young to change sex.

Originally posted by maroun.c
what also worries me as they are put in separate tanks at the lfs but i could always show aup at the day they recieve fish hoping that they are kept together prior to being shipped to us.
The only time I see LFS keep maroons separate is if they are selling WC stock… Buy CB (captive bred) fish and you will not have a worry. If you are buying WC (wild caught) fish, that little 1 ½” maroon could be 20 years old and wipe a sex change fast… :rolleyes:

Originally posted by maroun.c
also if i get a really small one do you think it'l stand a chance in front of the clarcki pair?
Read this... http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=245520&highlight=mixing+species

Originally posted by maroun.c
Sorry lots of question but i wold really appreciate your help as i wouldn't want to risk fish if there is no acceptable chance that it could work

From the sounds of it, you are already seeing the fighting between the maroon female and the A. clarkii pair turn for the worse. Frankly it is unlikely that you will be able to keep both pairs in the same tank.

And no the digging is not related to spawning per say, even though some of the old reference books say that it is. Prespawning behavior is for both fish to vigorously “clean” their nest site by biting it. At 2 ½” your pair is likely too young to spawn. A mature spawning A. clarkii female will generally be 3” to 4.5”.

[Anguila]

First of all, thank you for all the fascinating information, JHardman. I appreciate that you have taken the time to share your knowledge with us. Second of all, I apologize if you have answered these questions before. I only ask them because I have not seen the answers to them in any of your stickeyed threads or their links.

Q#1: I have a Tomato clown approx. 2-2.5 in. long. I have had her(?) for about a month now, and I have seen her change to a much darker hue in the short time that I have had her. If I introduce a much smaller, asexual Tomato clown what are the chances that she will kill it/him? Is it ideal to put a devider in the tank for a certain period of time?

Q#2: Is their an ideal temperature to stimulate breeding for clowns? I have bred freshwater cichlids before, and when I did this I raised the temp. from 78 to 88-90 to stimulate the breeding process. Currently the temp. in my marine tank is 74-75.

Q3#: Is their an ideal salinity level for breeding clowns? Right now I am at about 21.

Q#4: I have a hermit crab in my tank. Would it be possible for him to consume a large portion of the eggs in the eventually of the mating process taking place? I wouldn't remove him if he only ate a few/or none, but I wouldn't want to see him kill all of them.

Q#5: Is their an ideal diet for breeding clownfish in terms of the quantity/quality? Right now I feed my fish once a day, Formula 1, and Formula 2, respectively every other day.

Thank you for your time.

-Andrew

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Anguila
First of all, thank you for all the fascinating information, JHardman. I appreciate that you have taken the time to share your knowledge with us. Second of all, I apologize if you have answered these questions before. I only ask them because I have not seen the answers to them in any of your stickeyed threads or their links.

Q#1: I have a Tomato clown approx. 2-2.5 in. long. I have had her(?) for about a month now, and I have seen her change to a much darker hue in the short time that I have had her. If I introduce a much smaller, asexual Tomato clown what are the chances that she will kill it/him? Is it ideal to put a devider in the tank for a certain period of time?

Q#2: Is their an ideal temperature to stimulate breeding for clowns? I have bred freshwater cichlids before, and when I did this I raised the temp. from 78 to 88-90 to stimulate the breeding process. Right now the temp. in my marine tank is 74-75.

Q3#: Is their an ideal salinity level for breeding clowns? Right now I am at about 21.

Q#4: I have a hermit crab in my tank. Would it be possible for him to consume a large portion of the fry in the eventually of the mating process taking place? I wouldn't remove him if he only ate a few/or none, but I wouldn't want to see him kill all of them.


Thank you for your time.

-Andrew

Hi and welcome to RC!

#1, At that size, it is more likely that your fish is female. And yes adding a sexless juvenile from a community tank would be the way to go. A. frenatus can be nearly as hard to pair as maroons and you might have to take a separation approach to the pairing if the your female is really nasty. But you should be able to get by with a grow out technique.

2-4 are a off topic to this post, so I will keep my answers short and direct you to more information.

#2, Tropical species like your A. frenatus will do best for spawning at between 80°F and about 84°F.

#3, Salinity should be close to the salinity of there range in high summer, for most species this is SG 1.025 to SG 1.027

#4, You would not leave the nest in the tank to hatch, as the larva would become zooplankton for anything in the tank.

Myself and Dr. Marini wrote an couple of articles for http://www.advancedaquarist.com that will start to run in this months issues. You will find much more detailed information in these articles, especially in relation to #2-#4. ;)

[Anguila]

Thank you for the response.

Regarding off topic questions such as clown diet would it be best to start a new thread on the particular subject?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Anguila
Thank you for the response.

Regarding off topic questions such as clown diet would it be best to start a new thread on the particular subject?

Yes. Posts like this that are more or less part of the clownfish FAQ should stay on topic (pairing clownfish for this one).

[Anguila]

If their is a detailed thread regarding the removal of the nest into another tank (and the diet for the fry) could you link it to me, please.

[Skipper]

Hey Anguila. How's about an article that does a quick review of those topics? Scoll way down in the article to the section on Captive Breeding.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/hcs3/index.htm

HTH

[Anguila]

Thanks, Skipper.

[JHardman]

New information...

Today I got a new pair of SI black A. percula. They are in the QT tank right now. And I have seen something that up until today I thought was a maroon exclusive behavior...

The male when gently "nosed" by the female will turn and kiss the cheeks of the female, just like a maroon pair.

So I guess I need to add that in some pairs, but it is unusual, submissive males will kiss the cheeks of their females, just like maroons do.

[Rich the Newb]

Very good thread, very informative. I had no idea of the complexities of sex with clowns. I will now be able to make a more informed purchase when I buy my first pair.

[Anguila]

Day one: complete success. Introduce new 3/4" to 1" juvie A. Frenatus in with the dominant female. From what I saw (and I could have missed something) the female iniciates the quivering movement, and after a rough hour or two they are now friends, and swim around together.

Day two: the female starts digging a big nest area taking out one whole side of my tank almost!

Day three: Nothing exceptionally exciting today. All adjustments have been made: temp. raised, the get fed three times a day til saturation, salinity level slightly raised, etc.



I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question, but roughly how long til they start making babies?

[kris4647]

John thats pretty incredible. I have seen a submissive behavior much like the "kiss" but never exactly how I observe with the Maroons .

I'm really fascinated by the different complex's behavior patterns. Some of the same trademark behaviors seem to show up in the TR clowns as well.

If you get a chance update me on the MCC's and your hybridization efforts, [I know you've got to be tinkering with something new] My Leuco [Mrs Marine Depot banner] has tolerated a Sandarcinos juve for the last two Months. I'm hopeful for them.

Take Care -----------Kris

[algaefree]

About a week ago, I moved my anemone and maroon clown to a separate 10gallon tank that is plumbed to the rest of my system. The anemone was being a pest... Since I now had a separate home for my clown (3.5" - 4" long), I thought it was time to pair her with a buddy. I bought a 1.5" male (or what I perceived to be a male) to see if they would get along. For about an hour, the female kind of asserted her womanly authority, and every so often, the little guy would start to convulse like he was having a seizure or as though she ripped off his fins or something. I guess that means he was just indicating his submissiveness to her.

That first night, they were sleeping together in the anemone.... Now they're just the best of friends.

An interesting thing also happened. My maroons are yellow striped maroons. I wasn't sure my female was a yellow-striped at first because her stripes were so faint, they just looked white. Now, they are getting more orange/yellow. Has anyone ever noticed this before? Is it normal?

Is there any indication I should be looking for that they will begin spawning? And how long does it take (best case scenario) before a newly paired fish will start to lay eggs?

[t1guyton1]

cool thread....will have to keep this one....

[JHardman]

Originally posted by algaefree
About a week ago, I moved my anemone and maroon clown to a separate 10gallon tank that is plumbed to the rest of my system. The anemone was being a pest... Since I now had a separate home for my clown (3.5" - 4" long), I thought it was time to pair her with a buddy. I bought a 1.5" male (or what I perceived to be a male) to see if they would get along. For about an hour, the female kind of asserted her womanly authority, and every so often, the little guy would start to convulse like he was having a seizure or as though she ripped off his fins or something. I guess that means he was just indicating his submissiveness to her.

That first night, they were sleeping together in the anemone.... Now they're just the best of friends.

An interesting thing also happened. My maroons are yellow striped maroons. I wasn't sure my female was a yellow-striped at first because her stripes were so faint, they just looked white. Now, they are getting more orange/yellow. Has anyone ever noticed this before? Is it normal?

Is there any indication I should be looking for that they will begin spawning? And how long does it take (best case scenario) before a newly paired fish will start to lay eggs?

Congrats! Pairing maroons can be tough, glad it went smoothly for you.

I would not expect a spawn for a newly paired, pair for 12-24 months.

Classic pre-spawning behavior is for both fish, together to vigorously clean a nesting site near their sleeping place, by biting it. The cleaning can go on for quite a while before a nest is laid, especially a first nest.

[Anguila]

Originally posted by JHardman
Congrats! Pairing maroons can be tough, glad it went smoothly for you.

I would not expect a spawn for a newly paired, pair for 12-24 months.

Classic pre-spawning behavior is for both fish, together to vigorously clean a nesting site near their sleeping place, by biting it. The cleaning can go on for quite a while before a nest is laid, especially a first nest.

Is that for all clowns or does it vary depending on the species?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Anguila
Is that for all clowns or does it vary depending on the species?

All.

[ant276]

Oh man, I now have to go through this process. It seems that the big female went carpet surfing. How on earth she fit through a 2 inch gap in the back of the tank I don't know. :(

I have, sorry had 2 false perc's and I think they were just becoming mature. The one left is pretty beat up, should I wait until he become's the dominant female and introduce a smaller one or should I go out and get a new smaller one now even though he has already been fighting?

He is in the tank with two pajama cardinals and no host.

Tony

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ant276
Oh man, I now have to go through this process. It seems that the big female went carpet surfing. How on earth she fit through a 2 inch gap in the back of the tank I don't know. :(

I have, sorry had 2 false perc's and I think they were just becoming mature. The one left is pretty beat up, should I wait until he become's the dominant female and introduce a smaller one or should I go out and get a new smaller one now even though he has already been fighting?

He is in the tank with two pajama cardinals and no host.

Tony

At the very least give the current fish time to heal. You will have better results by growing out the current fish to >2" and then introducing an small sexless fish.

BTW, I have seen fully grown 3"+ A. ocellaris squeeze thru egg create when used to separate a tank. Make sure there are no gaps in your top, all clownfish can jump, some more than others.

[ant276]

That's what I thought. It's just odd watching him swim through the tank. He seem's to be looking for her. I'm going to mesh that area over where she got through.

Thx

Tony

[jgoelz]

O.K. I am in the middle of introducing a potential mate for my 3 1/2 inch Gold striped maroon. I have a 1 inch teenie little maroon in a clear plastic isolation/ breeder box which I sunk to the bottom near the females hangout. I have noticed the female swim up to the box. The little one meets her at the plastic and begins "convulsing" I haven't seen any "agressive" behavior yet from the female. Is she just waiting for me to let him out of the box so she can attack him?

The little one has been in the tank for 4 days now. Do you guys think it is safe to let him out?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by jgoelz
O.K. I am in the middle of introducing a potential mate for my 3 1/2 inch Gold striped maroon. I have a 1 inch teenie little maroon in a clear plastic isolation/ breeder box which I sunk to the bottom near the females hangout. I have noticed the female swim up to the box. The little one meets her at the plastic and begins "convulsing" I haven't seen any "agressive" behavior yet from the female. Is she just waiting for me to let him out of the box so she can attack him?

The little one has been in the tank for 4 days now. Do you guys think it is safe to let him out?

Yep, time to let him out. Just watch them...

[rza007]

JHardman- awesome threads.

heres my deal.
I have an A. Frenatus that has been with me for a long time now. I want to give it a mate. After reading your two great threads about clown fish, I decided to give the pairing a shot. I purchased a tomato that is visibly smaller than the clown I have. As soon as they laid eyes on each other, I saw many of the actions your explained in the thread. The smaller clown showed no aggression while the larger was defensive of its anemone.

Heres my deal-

I have a giant colony of LTA’s on one side of my tank which houses the L tomato. On the opposite side of the tank lives a Rbta which the new smaller clown has taken to. Throughout the day, the larger clown will swim over to the Rbta and share the Rbta with the small clown, however, when the small clown swims over to the larger clowns Lta’s- the L clown shows aggression and is again defensive but does no harm. Also, at night they sleep on opposite sides of the tank.

Am I on the right track to a successful pair? I would really like my clown for 3 years to start spawning.

This has been going on since (11/16)

[JHardman]

Originally posted by rza007
JHardman- awesome threads.

heres my deal.
I have an A. Frenatus that has been with me for a long time now. I want to give it a mate. After reading your two great threads about clown fish, I decided to give the pairing a shot. I purchased a tomato that is visibly smaller than the clown I have. As soon as they laid eyes on each other, I saw many of the actions your explained in the thread. The smaller clown showed no aggression while the larger was defensive of its anemone.

Heres my deal-

I have a giant colony of LTA’s on one side of my tank which houses the L tomato. On the opposite side of the tank lives a Rbta which the new smaller clown has taken to. Throughout the day, the larger clown will swim over to the Rbta and share the Rbta with the small clown, however, when the small clown swims over to the larger clowns Lta’s- the L clown shows aggression and is again defensive but does no harm. Also, at night they sleep on opposite sides of the tank.

Am I on the right track to a successful pair? I would really like my clown for 3 years to start spawning.

This has been going on since (11/16)

Sounds fine. They have accepted eachother. It takes time to build the pair bond. They will go thru several stages, and not being allowed in the females anemone is typical of a new pairing. Just wait, they are working it out.

[jgoelz]

Success!!!:D I let the little guy out of isolation the night before last and he is still alive. He just follows the big female around like a little puppy. She looks to have accepted him ( or at least will tolerate him). No aggressive behavior at all from her. Let's wait and see if they form a mating pair. Thanks for the input.

[MLudl]

Yet another GS Maroon pairing question. I have a female that has been with me for offer 5 years in a 29 gallon tank. She is over 3" nose to tail. I have recently set up a 55 gallon that she will be moved into and would like to pair her up in the process. So here are my 2 choices:

a) Purchase a small clown and add him to the new tank first, let him get settled a little (only a few days), and then introduce the female, probably in a container.

or

b) Add the female first and let her get settled, and then go through the normal "adding a male to an established female" routine, as described above.

I would like to try a), as I would like the female to be the last fish added to the new tank, but if b) is more likely to result in succes, than I will take that route.

Thanks,
Mark

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MLudl
Yet another GS Maroon pairing question. I have a female that has been with me for offer 5 years in a 29 gallon tank. She is over 3" nose to tail. I have recently set up a 55 gallon that she will be moved into and would like to pair her up in the process. So here are my 2 choices:

a) Purchase a small clown and add him to the new tank first, let him get settled a little (only a few days), and then introduce the female, probably in a container.

or

b) Add the female first and let her get settled, and then go through the normal "adding a male to an established female" routine, as described above.

I would like to try a), as I would like the female to be the last fish added to the new tank, but if b) is more likely to result in succes, than I will take that route.

Thanks,
Mark

You will have a much higher likelihood of success with adding the female first, giving her a few weeks to settle in, then adding a small juvenile of about 3/4" but no greater than 1.5".

Here is why... A maroon will defend it's territory and a maroon entering a new territory will be more likely to be submissive. So if you were to add the small juvenile first, it would claim territory and defend it from the larger female which is exactly what you do not want to happen.

[DominOE]

Hi, i am having trouble pairing two clowns b/c i think they are different species and are the same size. I belive one is supposedly a true percula while the other is a false (oscellaris). I had the oscellaris in the tank for about 2 weeks before i added the second true percula. Now the oscellaris is bossing the new percula around whenever they near eachother. I notice that once in a while they approach and have epileptic seizures, as you have mentioned. Other times, they have no association with eachother.
But one promising thing is that they both sleep at the same spot with eachother (the top corner of the tank).
Also, would you know why they wouldn't' be hosting my condy lactis, bubble tip anemone, or hairy mushroom? I've had all of them in there for about 3 weeks now. My tank is a 20 gallon with a seaclone skimmer and 160 watt PC lighting.
If you could help at all, that would be great, thankyou

-Tony

[BLUESMAN]

Well none of your hosts are natural hosts to either True/False Peculas. Second they are both prob females, or are going thru their sex change. You might get lucky and neither will kill each other and they might host in the BTA( I guess that's the good news!). Blue

[JHardman]

Originally posted by DominOE
Hi, i am having trouble pairing two clowns b/c i think they are different species and are the same size. I belive one is supposedly a true percula while the other is a false (oscellaris). I had the oscellaris in the tank for about 2 weeks before i added the second true percula. Now the oscellaris is bossing the new percula around whenever they near eachother. I notice that once in a while they approach and have epileptic seizures, as you have mentioned. Other times, they have no association with eachother.
But one promising thing is that they both sleep at the same spot with eachother (the top corner of the tank).
Also, would you know why they wouldn't' be hosting my condy lactis, bubble tip anemone, or hairy mushroom? I've had all of them in there for about 3 weeks now. My tank is a 20 gallon with a seaclone skimmer and 160 watt PC lighting.
If you could help at all, that would be great, thankyou

-Tony

Give them some time. It doesn't sound like they have been in the tank very long, and that is likely why they are sleeping on the surface.

If you do not have a good dominate submissive relationship forming in a couple of weeks, you might consider taking on of the fish back for a smaller fish of the same species. With non aggressive species like A. ocellaris and A. percula the grow out technique with one larger and one smaller fish, has the best likelihood of success. But can take a couple weeks for the relationship to really show.

You might want to ask about the host(s) in a separate post so we do not get too off topic in this already long post.

Originally posted by BLUESMAN
Second they are both prob females, or are going thru their sex change. You might get lucky and neither will kill each other and they might host in the BTA( I guess that's the good news!). Blue

It is VERY unlikely that both are female. Two females in the same tank 999 times out a 1000 will fight, typically ending in jaw locking.

Without knowing the size and species of the fish, there is no way to know if the fish are even old/big enough to change sex. In new pairings, the first and foremost thing to happen is a dominate submissive relationship is established. Sex change will not start to happen until this relationship is worked out and only if the fish are physically mature.

[DominOE]

Thankyou for the info.

I take that back, i've had BOTh the clowns in the tank for about a month now.

How long does it take for a sex change and at what is is physically mature and how long would it take according to my fishs' sizes? If it is going to take too longk, as you said, i will return one for a smaller one.

Here is the pic.
http://www.angelfire.com/ex/s2k-racer/2clowns.JPG

[JHardman]

Originally posted by DominOE
Thankyou for the info.

I take that back, i've had BOTh the clowns in the tank for about a month now.

How long does it take for a sex change and at what is is physically mature and how long would it take according to my fishs' sizes? If it is going to take too longk, as you said, i will return one for a smaller one.

Here is the pic.
http://www.angelfire.com/ex/s2k-racer/2clowns.JPG

From the looks in the picture those are two juveniles about 6-9 months old, likely CB fish from ORA. Both are A. ocellaris, common name "false percula".

A. ocellaris are physically mature between 12 and 18 months old. Once they are physically mature the sex change can happen in as little as a month.

Considering the likely age/size of the fish, I would just let them be. Being as young as they are, it will take a few months before they are a solid pair. As long as their fighting doesn't cause any heavy damage (missing chunks of fin for example), just leave them be to work it out.

[ezhoops]

just introduced a white stripe Maroon to my GSM female, first try wasn't too bad, a little chasing and biting. The male is shivering to her but she could care less. I know that a White and Gold Maroon are the same species /so they will mate if everything goes according to plan right? I have read that they would be just checking. I hope that everything works, cause I hate to have to cycle through a bunch of males. Can you just try the same male fish a couple weeks after the intial try?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
just introduced a white stripe Maroon to my GSM female, first try wasn't too bad, a little chasing and biting. The male is shivering to her but she could care less. I know that a White and Gold Maroon are the same species /so they will mate if everything goes according to plan right? I have read that they would be just checking. I hope that everything works, cause I hate to have to cycle through a bunch of males. Can you just try the same male fish a couple weeks after the intial try?

Yes they are the same species and are quite capable of pairing and spawning.

If you reread this post for submissive and dominate behavior you will know that the main thing after the smaller fish has submitted is for the female to recognize this and stop her attacks short.

You are underestimating these fish if you think that the female will not recognize the same juvenile/male a couple of weeks later. Clownfish are very visual fish with long memories.

Remember you are forming a bonded pair relationship and both fish have to accept each other. Try (3) times over the course of 3 to 5 days. IME if you do not have a pairing after (3) tries, you never will. Sure you can try a couple of more times and get lucky, but the odds of a successful pairing goes down with each failed attempt.

Something that you do not mention is if the fish you are trying to introduce is WC or CB. It makes me wonder because the fish from your description already has it's gold bars. If it has all of it’s bars gold it is physically mature and might well have started to change sex already. A physically mature fish can change sex in a month, which if the fish was WC could well be about how long it has been more or less along and having all the clues to change sex and is doing so.

This is the primary reason I recommend pairing with small CB juveniles from a community tank, where you are almost assured of getting a sexless juvenile, not to mention that all new fish should be QT’ed for 4-6 weeks to insure you are not introducing diseases and parasites into your healthy fish population, which means if you are buying a WC fish that is physically mature (many are), it will likely be a female by the time you are done with QT.

[ezhoops]

they are both WC, the female is the GSM with gold coloring, the male is a small White stripe. I guess I did under estimate them. If this male doesn't work, often soon till I can try another and what should I look for in another male? I hate this I feel like I'm torturing my male maroon?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
they are both WC, the female is the GSM with gold coloring, the male is a small White stripe. I guess I did under estimate them. If this male doesn't work, often soon till I can try another and what should I look for in another male? I hate this I feel like I'm torturing my male maroon?

Look for a small (about 3/4") CB fish from a community tank. You can try with another juvenile as soon as you want. But again I recommend QT'ing all new fish, especially this time of year when brook is on the rampage in wholesale and retail tanks.

[ezhoops]

I know this sounds lame but my the person I get my clowns from q't all clownfish 10 days before he sells them. He uses Meth blue. something like that. Do you know of somewhere I could get a 3/4 maroon white or gold? My LFS doesn't carry them, I got the female from tropicorium, I could try their again.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
I know this sounds lame but my the person I get my clowns from q't all clownfish 10 days before he sells them. He uses Meth blue. something like that. Do you know of somewhere I could get a 3/4 maroon white or gold? My LFS doesn't carry them, I got the female from tropicorium, I could try their again.

Ten days is not long enough for a QT, 4 weeks minimum, 6 weeks recommended. Sorry but all ten days is going to do is let the fish in poor shape die in private. There are a lot of things one can use in a prophylactic treatment method to treat new WC/CB clownfish, but metholine (sp) blue is not one that I would use. Formalin, malachite green, pipzine, yes. I commend him/her for the effort, but frankly it is not enough to insure that new fish are not infected/infested.

You can get CB maroons from any LFS, if they are willing to order them. ORA carries GSM and WSM at a minimum of 1", just ask your LFS to order them (small size), then pick up the fish before they put it in their tanks and you will not need to QT the new fish, as ORA (or any other breeder worth a hoot) does not ship diseased or parasite infested fish.

[algaefree]

ezhoops,

Have you tried Tropicorium in Romulus?

[ezhoops]

Have you tried Tropicorium in Romulus?

That is where I bought the female from. She is a beautiful creature. I haven't checked with them in a while but the usually only have 3-4 inch GSM, unless you buy a pair, they will not separate a pair, thinking that now I should have just bought a pair in the first place. by time I find a suitable male and spend a billion dollars buying and trading all the failures out I could have bought 2 pair of GSM's. I'll give them a call in the morning.
Thanks

P.s. Maybe I'll get lucky and they will get along tomorrow. I'm giving it till wednesday. Cause then I will not be at school for the holiday and I don't want to leave the little guy in the specimen container over the break.

[ezhoops]

Jhardman thanks for the tip, I will try to order through ORA.

[MLudl]

JHardman, Thanks for the reply. I will introduce all of my other fish first, and then the female GSM, and then start looking for a suitable mate.

I do have one more question concerning the timing of sex changes. From your multiple replies above, it seems that age is the determining factor concerning when they can begin to change sex, is this true? I ask because I sometimes see small (less than 1" nose to tail) GSM clowns with their stripes already a bright yellow color. I think you mentioned that these are probably WC, and could be 10 years old already. I assume this means they can change sex pretty quickly, even though they are only 1" long. Thanks again for this very informative thread!

Mark

PS: my local fish store says they do not like to carry captive bred clowns because there is a very high incedence of deformaties like flat faces and misbarring, caused by inbreeding. Is there any truth to this?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MLudl
JHardman, Thanks for the reply. I will introduce all of my other fish first, and then the female GSM, and then start looking for a suitable mate.

I do have one more question concerning the timing of sex changes. From your multiple replies above, it seems that age is the determining factor concerning when they can begin to change sex, is this true? I ask because I sometimes see small (less than 1" nose to tail) GSM clowns with their stripes already a bright yellow color. I think you mentioned that these are probably WC, and could be 10 years old already. I assume this means they can change sex pretty quickly, even though they are only 1" long. Thanks again for this very informative thread!

You got it. There are two requirements for a sex change, first is being physically mature, which is strictly an age based thing. With clownfish, depending on species physical maturity is reached between 12-24 months. Second are the environmental factors of dominance.

So it is quite possible to have a 3/4" clownfish that is 30 years old and sexless, as it has spent it's entire life in a hierarchy and never been in a position to be sexual.

A physically mature clownfish can change sex in a month. This was documented by Joyce Wilkerson in her early days of breeding when she separated a pair to “give them a break” only to find she had two female instead of a male and female.

Originally posted by MLudl
Mark

PS: my local fish store says they do not like to carry captive bred clowns because there is a very high incedence of deformaties like flat faces and misbarring, caused by inbreeding. Is there any truth to this?

Not Mark, but I will put in my $0.02 on this one. This is a typical cry of a LFS that doesn't want to spend the extra money for CB clownfish. There is some truth to the statement, but by in large it is a false statement. Any breeder worth their salt culls deformed fish and never sells them. And many do offer mis barred clownfish, but as a separate, graded product, at a different price, generally less, sometimes more based on consumer demand. So when you hear a statement like that, it is either based on misinformation and lack of experience or flat out greed as CB clownfish run about twice as much as the same WC fish, allowing the LFS to make more money. I have nothing against an LFS making money, if they didn’t they wouldn’t be there to serve our needs, but putting BS like that state out there I do have a problem with, it is at best misinformation and ignorance and at worst a flat out lie to make more money.

To the general question of rather there are more mis bars, deformities in CB clownfish versus WC clownfish is one that is not likely to be solved. But one can make a logical argument that the rates are the same in CB fish as WC fish. For example, a fish with a deform jaw... In a CB environment that fish will likely be able to survive to a large size, while in the wild it will likely become food for something else or starve. Keep in mind that just because you do not see as many WC fish with mis barring and/or deformities, doesn't mean there were not a lot that were hatched out, but simply did not make it to ever be caught for sale to you.

[ezhoops]

I'll answer this one, Simply NO
once a clown changes into a female they cannot change back. A male can turn into a female if the need should occur. But once they turn into a she they cannot turn back. Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back. JHardman wrote a bit about this subject, The thread was called sexing clownfish. I would recommend reading J wilkerson's book on clownfish.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back.

Would you care to sight your references for this?

[ezhoops]

JHardman quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ezhoops
Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you care to sight your references for this?


John,
here is my references :)

JHARDMAN wrote on 7/15/2003 (thread titled Sexing clownfish)

"Q: What is the nature of clownfish in terms of gender?

A: Clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites. Clownfish are hatched sexually immature or in other words sexless, neither male or female. This in the simplest of terms means that they change sex from sexless to male to female. This is a one way trip; sexless to male never to be sexless again and male to female never to male again. They may spend their entire life as a sexually immature fish depending on their environment."

"Examples of Clownfishes sex change.

A single clownfish kept by it's self:
if a single clownfish is kept by it's self it will become a female clownfish."

Another source

"Once a clownfish becomes male, it cannot return to being an adolescent again. Further, if the clownfishes's social surrounding lacks a female, the hormonal balance then changes in the male......This hormonal shift causes the male fish to grow more and become more aggressive, and he soon develops ovaries and becomes a functioning female. Once a clownfish becomes a female, she is permanently female and can never again be a functioning male......this entire conversion in gender can be completed in a month or less. This sequential sexuality is called Protandrous (Prot=first;androus=male) hermaphroditism."
Joyce D. Wilkerson "Clownfishes p.134"

Eric:)

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
JHardman quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ezhoops
Sorry, Also if a clown is kept singly it will USUALLY (not always 100%) turn into the female and remember once they are females they cannot turn back.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would you care to sight your references for this?


John,
here is my references :)
<--Snip-->
Eric:)

The reason I asked for the references was I have never seen anything that said "usually (not always 100%)". As fas as I know is this a 100% of the time thing.

[ezhoops]

Oh, sorry (that was me being unsure of it) I was kind of wondering if you might have forgotten what YOU had wrote. Simple misunderstanding. BTW thats for the quick response regarding the GSM's they are doing OK so far.

[ezhoops]

regarding my GSM with WSM. They have coexisted for the past 4 days. The male has some minor fin tears but the worst is over. Are they entirely safe together now or is it still possible she could kill him? Also, will they slowly couple up?
Last question, I remember reading that males are typically brightly colored, this male WSM is very chocolate colored, is it possible that I could have a small female in thier (again he is a WC) but has very dark coloring. Would my GSM allow a female into territory? (she is a very laid back GSM.)
Thanks, for all you advice

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
regarding my GSM with WSM. They have coexisted for the past 4 days. The male has some minor fin tears but the worst is over. Are they entirely safe together now or is it still possible she could kill him? Also, will they slowly couple up?

The key is behavior that shows that a dominate/submissive relationship is forming/formed. If you are not seeing it, then no it is not safe. If you are seeing it, then chances are pretty good that they will be fine.

Originally posted by ezhoops
Last question, I remember reading that males are typically brightly colored, this male WSM is very chocolate colored, is it possible that I could have a small female in thier (again he is a WC) but has very dark coloring. Would my GSM allow a female into territory? (she is a very laid back GSM.)
Thanks, for all you advice

Coloring is not a good idicator of sex in clownfish. Read the sexing clownfish post that is linked in this post.

It is possible, but extermely unlikely that you have two females. You would see jaw locking at a minimum if you did.

[ezhoops]

Well, they had a minor very quick jaw thing going for a milli-second when he was first released into the tank.

he is very submissive, not shivering though, but just stays in the corner top of the tank and will sometimes swim near her for a second and then she chases him (no bites, just chases) to his corner, he is eating ,not well , but eating.

I hope things will progress, and what is the typical time period for the female to totally accept him (I realize all clowns are different but what is average)

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
Well, they had a minor very quick jaw thing going for a milli-second when he was first released into the tank.

he is very submissive, not shivering though, but just stays in the corner top of the tank and will sometimes swim near her for a second and then she chases him (no bites, just chases) to his corner, he is eating ,not well , but eating.

I hope things will progress, and what is the typical time period for the female to totally accept him (I realize all clowns are different but what is average)

If he is not quivering (reread the section on submissive behavior) he is not being submissive. If this is indeed the case, no you do not have a pair formed and the smaller fish is at risk.

[ezhoops]

I will have to sit down and watch them again for a while but I did not see any quivering. he did when he was first released in to the tank and even in specimen container, but now I haven't seen him quivering in a while.

I'll keep my fingers crossed

[leviwin]

Has anybody ever had success with buying two small GBM clowns? and if no why wouldn't work.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by leviwin
Has anybody ever had success with buying two small GBM clowns? and if no why wouldn't work.

I assume you mean gold stripe maroons...

From the initial post...

Originally posted by leviwin
Paring Premnas species clownfish (maroon clownfish):
Pairing maroon clowns is much more problematic than pairing Amphiprion species clownfish. Maroons are notorious for being very aggressive towards other clownfish. They are pretty much fearless and will only back down from an all out fight when presented with the overwhelming threat of death.

Separation Technique:
The only technique I am aware of that works the vast majority of the time with the least amount of damage as possible to use a separation and slow acclimation process to introduce a poetical mate to a maroon clownfish.

First you need to have a large female already established in your tank before trying a pairing. The clownfish should be at least 3” from nose to start of the cardinal fin. Next you will need to do a little preparation before buying a potential mate for your maroon. You need something to securely separate the two fish in the same tank while still allowing the fish to see each other and the new fish to get water flow. You can use a clear plastic specimen container with holes drilled in it for example.

Now go to the LFS and find the smallest juvenile maroon from a community tank that you can find. It should be no larger than 1” nose to start of cardinal fin. Acclimate the new maroon just as you would any other fish. Once the new maroon is acclimated to your tanks water, place the new maroon in the specimen container. Let the two fish see each other, place the specimen container near the females territory. Carefully watch the female’s behavior. If she is trying to attack the new fish thru the container, it is not safe to release the new maroon. Give her time to cool off from the disruption to her tank and addition of a foreign clownfish in her tank.

Now that the female has cooled her temper it is time to try an introduction. Get your favorite fish net ready and release the new maroon to the tank. If the fighting gets too bad you will need to rescue the new maroon and place it back in the container and try the next day. If after three failed attempts you can write off the new maroon as incompatible and you will need a new juvenile to try with.

[ezhoops]

IMO it is important to add that you may want to let the male (in the specimen container) stay inside the container for a day or two before actually releasing him. It took mine female 5 days before she allowed him to be released into the tank and will still occasionally give him a little beating.

[Timbor]

Hey... I was just wondering why you said that you should not attempt the grow out technique for pairing maroon clowns? Im still in research mode, as I will not be able to set up my first marine tank until fall of 2004... I would like to have some clowns and anenomes in the tank. It will be a 35 gallon with a 20 gallon sump (most likely) as I have both of these tanks that arent in use. Would a 35 (3'*1'*18"tall) be too small to keep a pair of maroons?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by Timbor
Hey... I was just wondering why you said that you should not attempt the grow out technique for pairing maroon clowns? Im still in research mode, as I will not be able to set up my first marine tank until fall of 2004... I would like to have some clowns and anenomes in the tank. It will be a 35 gallon with a 20 gallon sump (most likely) as I have both of these tanks that arent in use. Would a 35 (3'*1'*18"tall) be too small to keep a pair of maroons?

Look up two posts from yours, or in the initial post...

A 30g would be fine for a pair of maroons as long as your filtration is setup to handle the bio load, which if you use a typical reef style tank with lots of LR and LS, it will be fine.

[leviwin]

have you ever had anybody try the grow out technique with gsm clowns. my friend recently bought two small gsm clown and they seem to be doing fine. I was just wondering if they would end up killing each other in the near future. By they way they have been in the same tank for about two months now.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by leviwin
have you ever had anybody try the grow out technique with gsm clowns. my friend recently bought two small gsm clown and they seem to be doing fine. I was just wondering if they would end up killing each other in the near future. By they way they have been in the same tank for about two months now.

It is not unheard of, in fact I have a spawning pair that was paired that way by a fellow reefer that didn't know any better when she bought them.

The odds are against success and may result in damaged fish even if they do eventually pair bond.

Again for example the female of that pair I mentioned has two holes in her dorsal fin and the male has a funky mouth from hitting something hard like rocks or glass. Even to this day the female is VERY rough on him, especially at spawning time. I feel sorry for the guy, he gets the **** beat out of him every two weeks. And to top that off, she will not let him out of nest tending to eat.

[leviwin]

thanks for the info

[miareefer]

JHardman
Well done with this very informitive thread i have a few questions in regard to pairing Tomato clowns. I had a pair of Amphiprion rubrocinctus one was about a inch and a half and the other was a tad longer then 2 inches the larger fish was heavily built and i presumed female. i have them in a 180 gallon reef tank that has good water quality and lots of quadricolor anenomes i collected them as a pair and they hit it off straight away sharing there anenomes and fanning my dsb on occasions they have been in the system for almost a year without any eggs laid. I became impatient after having been culturing phyto and rots for around 6 months so i did the unthinkable i added 6 more fish to the system 5 where smaller then my male but one was a brute around 3 and a half inches. I was amazed at how the fish sorted all there probs out in 24 hours all the small fish have taken residence up at the other end off the tank and the 2 larger fish had taken over the majority off the anenomes on the other end of the tank. So what happened to the previous pair well the larger fish which i thought was female has paired up with the godzilla tomatoe they share there anenomes and i have seen them kissing and chomping on the rocks within 2 weeks off introduction . So the origanal male hasnt given up so easy the poor fellow has been knocked about a bit but refuses to surrender and leave that end off the tank he is constantly harrased but just simply refuses to leave. Ime going to remove him asap but was hoping that they would sort it out so ime askin what behavior is this when the 2 largest fish are pairing up
is it normal for 2 females to do this if they are females. Or could my previous bigger fish been male all along i have no idea some very strange behaviour indeed.
Thanks JHardman

[JHardman]

Originally posted by miareefer
So what happened to the previous pair well the larger fish which i thought was female has paired up with the godzilla tomatoe they share there anenomes and i have seen them kissing and chomping on the rocks within 2 weeks off introduction . So the origanal male hasnt given up so easy the poor fellow has been knocked about a bit but refuses to surrender and leave that end off the tank he is constantly harrased but just simply refuses to leave. Ime going to remove him asap but was hoping that they would sort it out so ime askin what behavior is this when the 2 largest fish are pairing up
is it normal for 2 females to do this if they are females. Or could my previous bigger fish been male all along i have no idea some very strange behaviour indeed.
Thanks JHardman

The "kissing" you are referring to I assume is jaw locking a classic indicator of two females. It is not unheard of for two female to "pair up" and actually produce infertile nests, rare but not unheard of. Dr Hoff documents a case like this in his book on breeding. It sounds like your male is trying to service both females, again something that is not unheard of.

[ezhoops]

is it possible for a GSM & WSM to coexist in the same tank without ever pairing up? my female GSM is still bothering my WSM, its getting better but still only allows him in the top corners of the tank. Will she ever give in or will this behavior continue out for the rest of their days, or am I just a little impatient?
Thanks

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
is it possible for a GSM & WSM to coexist in the same tank without ever pairing up? my female GSM is still bothering my WSM, its getting better but still only allows him in the top corners of the tank. Will she ever give in or will this behavior continue out for the rest of their days, or am I just a little impatient?
Thanks

Considering how long you have been at this, I would say the female has rejected your choice of a mate for her. I would try with another very small CB juvenile from a community tank.

[MPA]

Just wondering why my tomatoe clown prefers sleeping next to the water return rather than in the BTA? Actually it never even goes in the BTA, and not just this one, I got this one to replace (traded out) the first one that the clown would not go in.

[ezhoops]

JHardman,
it has been exactly 9 days since they have been in the same tank together. What do ya think? give up or wait a little longer?

[ezhoops]

Also, I have not seen the male quiver once, I guess I am just not willing to give up. But perhaps I should.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
Also, I have not seen the male quiver once, I guess I am just not willing to give up. But perhaps I should.

Time for another potential mate.

[ezhoops]

IF I recall you said that ORA usually has small 1" GSM and that my LFS should be able to get them for me?

Thanks again, hopefully this one will work out better than the last. IT is gonna break my students hearts to remove one of their "little friends". try try and try again.

[mikestod]

Here's my situation. I have a small Clarkii (1.5") in a 10 gallon nano, and I've had it for about 6-8 months. At this point I'm assuming its changed to female. I think originally it was in a tank with a half a dozen others all of the same size. Would the best way to attempt to pair this fish be to get another small one, and hope that it has not established any sex yet, or at least not female?

For clarification I'm going to introduce both into my 65g at the same time.

Also, this may be off topic, but I'd like to get the pair to host in an anemone eventually, but I don't have one yet. Would either fish being tank raised make a difference for this possibility?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by mikestod
Here's my situation. I have a small Clarkii (1.5") in a 10 gallon nano, and I've had it for about 6-8 months. At this point I'm assuming its changed to female. I think originally it was in a tank with a half a dozen others all of the same size. Would the best way to attempt to pair this fish be to get another small one, and hope that it has not established any sex yet, or at least not female?

For clarification I'm going to introduce both into my 65g at the same time.

Also, this may be off topic, but I'd like to get the pair to host in an anemone eventually, but I don't have one yet. Would either fish being tank raised make a difference for this possibility?

Here is what I would do...

When you are ready move the existing A. clarkii to the new tank. Move the fish then wait 2-4 weeks for the fish to get comfortable and claim her territory. Then introduce a small juvenile from a community tank. They should pair up pretty fast this way.

Adding both at the same time to a new tank may not work as well. One of the things you want to happen is for the larger, female in this case, to focus her attention completely on the new fish. If you add both at the same time, this will not be the case, she will be trying to adjust to the sudden change in her world and the new fish might well become a secondary concern.

Yes hosting is off topic for this thread. Checkout the anemone FAQ and do a little searching in this forum. The question is asked and answered regularly.

[ezhoops]

Alright last question regarding my GSM & WSM pairing. They peacefully live together in my 29 Gal. Will they possibly pair up? as I said the male does not show submissive behavior, the female doesn't really mind him but doesn't let him too close to "her" territory. My goal is to have a pair, if this will never happen with these two fish I will move on. Could they live together without pairing up?
Please Advise

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
Alright last question regarding my GSM & WSM pairing. They peacefully live together in my 29 Gal. Will they possibly pair up? as I said the male does not show submissive behavior, the female doesn't really mind him but doesn't let him too close to "her" territory. My goal is to have a pair, if this will never happen with these two fish I will move on. Could they live together without pairing up?
Please Advise

If they haven't paired up yet, then they will likely never will. Most unsuccessful pairings between maroons are the result of not having a large enough size difference between the two fish.

No they will likely not live peacefully together. Sooner or later the new fish will grow, become female and now you have two females in a small tank which is a formula for disaster.

[ezhoops]

Back to square one, just for the record even when you do get a "male" to get along with a female they don't always pair up.

Now to find a new male, LFS just got a new shipment from ORA, hope their tiny GSM's.
Thanks again

[MPA]

Yesterday I found a tomato clown at my LFS that was around 5 in long. She's huge. I was told she came from Malaysia. She looked really healthy so I brought her home. The LFS told me that she would not be compatible with my original tomato clown (about 2 in long). The larger clown is bright neon orange and the other is bright red. (See pic)

I put the new on in the tank and nothing happened, except for a little checking each other out. The smaller on swam up to the new large clown 3-5 times and kind of turned a little sideways and then would swim around it. No aggressive behavior from either. The old clown likes to hang out up in the top corner of the tank near the sump return. It looked like it was trying to show the new clown where it lived for a while. The new clown finally found a place it liked and stays there about half the time. The other half it's swimming around the tank.

Does this sound like they might pair up under the right conditions? They are supposed to be from two different parts of the world.

Also would removing a little damsel be good to limit distractions for them in the tank?

[MPA]

another pic

[MPA]

and another pic

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MPA
Does this sound like they might pair up under the right conditions? They are supposed to be from two different parts of the world.

Also would removing a little damsel be good to limit distractions for them in the tank?

Well not only are they from different parts of the world, they are different species of clownfish. The smaller red'ish fish is a A. frenatus aka tomato and the larger orange'sih colored fish is an A. melanopus aka cinnamon.

So they may or may not pair up. Mixed species pairings are unique and sometimes pairing happens right off the bat, sometimes you will never get a pair from them. From your description you are fighting an up hill battle with these two.

Your best bet would be to not try to form a mixed species pairing.

Yes, it is always good to get rid of the nasty little damsels. ;)

[MPA]

Thanks Jhardman.

I've been following this post for a while, but didn't see any mention of corals in the tank.

It's 38gl w/ 96w 10 k PC, 96 w acintic, 175w 10 k mh. I'm gonna take the damsel and tomatoe out and get a cinnamon to try to make a pair. Would I have a better chance of them laying eggs w/o stuff like xenia, frogsapwn, or acro's in the tank?

[MPA]

hey jhardman,

I was talking with a friend of mine that bought this same fish from another local LFS, he said that this orange clown is a "malaysian tomatoe clown" and that it can be distinguished from a cinnamon clown by it's larger adult size, yellow tail, and all black fins.

what do you think???
This sounds correct, but .....

[JHardman]

Originally posted by MPA
hey jhardman,

I was talking with a friend of mine that bought this same fish from another local LFS, he said that this orange clown is a "malaysian tomatoe clown" and that it can be distinguished from a cinnamon clown by it's larger adult size, yellow tail, and all black fins.

what do you think???
This sounds correct, but .....

Nope, the Malaysian variant is well documented is quite red, not orange. Check out this link, http://wish.wodonga.tafe.edu.au/~kwaldon/fren.htm Kylie lists the Malaysian variant as #069

Then compare your fish to this link... http://wish.wodonga.tafe.edu.au/~kwaldon/mela.htm

I have no doubt that you have a cinnamon there.

[MPA]

Thank You JHardman.

those links are great!!

[CRG]

After reading through the FAQ on pairing Maroon Clownfish, I purchased a small juvenile from a community tank and placed him in a specimen container for 1 day. On the second day I let the male out of the container, which the female seemed to tolerate. However, it has been two days since letting the male out and the female still refuses to let the male into the BTA with her. When rushed by the female, the male shows characteristic submissive behavior, but I'm unsure why the female does not respond to this behavior appropriatly (ie. allowing the male into her territory). Should I be more patient or is this a pairing that is simply not meant to be?

Also, the female will gently tug at the male's pectoral fins, but stops short of actual damage. I'm not sure whether this is a negative behavior or whether it's just normal.

Your help is appreciated.

Cory

[Trumpet12]

Thank you, JHardman!
That information is very useful!!!

[JHardman]

Originally posted by CRG
After reading through the FAQ on pairing Maroon Clownfish, I purchased a small juvenile from a community tank and placed him in a specimen container for 1 day. On the second day I let the male out of the container, which the female seemed to tolerate. However, it has been two days since letting the male out and the female still refuses to let the male into the BTA with her. When rushed by the female, the male shows characteristic submissive behavior, but I'm unsure why the female does not respond to this behavior appropriatly (ie. allowing the male into her territory). Should I be more patient or is this a pairing that is simply not meant to be?

Also, the female will gently tug at the male's pectoral fins, but stops short of actual damage. I'm not sure whether this is a negative behavior or whether it's just normal.

Your help is appreciated.

Cory

I think you are misunderstanding the normal behavior of the female. The appropriate response to the juveniles submission is for her not kill "him" or in other words she stops her attack short of damage. Rather the female will let a newly "accepted" fish into her host is a really a fish by fish thing. I would not expect to see both in a host for several weeks or even months.

I haven't seen the tugging on the pectoral fins behavior as you describe it, but as long as there isn't any damage I wouldn't worry.

[CRG]

JHardman...

Thank you for the quick reply. I suppose I should just be more patient and be thankful that the female has not yet killed the male. However, I have one more question...

If the female does not eventually allow the male into her territory, will the two fish still constitute a pair in the traditional sense? I'm eventually hoping for a close bond between the two (ie. spawning).

Thanks,
Cory

[Atticus]

Should this be in the Frequently Asked Questions or do you want it open for more questions to be asked in this thread?

[Atticus]

OOOpps never mind I see it is linked there... I just didn't know the thread would still come to the top of the forum.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by CRG
JHardman...

Thank you for the quick reply. I suppose I should just be more patient and be thankful that the female has not yet killed the male. However, I have one more question...

If the female does not eventually allow the male into her territory, will the two fish still constitute a pair in the traditional sense? I'm eventually hoping for a close bond between the two (ie. spawning).

Thanks,
Cory

It is just a phase, they will grow inseparable over time, but don't be surprised if there a few spats in the mean time.

[ezhoops]

let me update...I was too late in removing my juvenile (male) WSM from the tank, they were tolerating each other and even in the clay pot together and the male even shivered. This after aprox 1 month together. I wake up the next day to find the WSM was dead? I have no idea what happened (I know most of you will assume the female killed him but I honestly don't believe that) any how when I woke up the clown was being eaten by my c.c. star. I have since tried another smaller male this time a GSM and so far things are going well. The male was in a specimen container for 1 day and then released. HE immediately began shivering and kissing her cheeks and anywhere on her sides. She did chase him and scare him into hiding for a night but He is out.

I also have a Similar question to the above post. My female has a BTA in her territory. The male stays on the opposite side of the tank and the female goes over and visits with him. He will run out to greet her and shiver and kiss her like crazy. But she will not allow him near her area. Will this change? Also, Will She eventually force him over to her territory if they do pair up and spawn?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by ezhoops
let me update...I was too late in removing my juvenile (male) WSM from the tank, they were tolerating each other and even in the clay pot together and the male even shivered. This after aprox 1 month together. I wake up the next day to find the WSM was dead? I have no idea what happened (I know most of you will assume the female killed him but I honestly don't believe that) any how when I woke up the clown was being eaten by my c.c. star. I have since tried another smaller male this time a GSM and so far things are going well. The male was in a specimen container for 1 day and then released. HE immediately began shivering and kissing her cheeks and anywhere on her sides. She did chase him and scare him into hiding for a night but He is out.
If there were pieces of him missing then you could figure the female was to blame. You should also have seen torn fins if it was her. When I have seen a female kill a juvenile/male it always ended with a bite to the belly disemboweling it or a bite to the spine just behind the head.

Originally posted by ezhoops
I also have a Similar question to the above post. My female has a BTA in her territory. The male stays on the opposite side of the tank and the female goes over and visits with him. He will run out to greet her and shiver and kiss her like crazy. But she will not allow him near her area. Will this change? Also, Will She eventually force him over to her territory if they do pair up and spawn?
Bickering phase... it will pass with time.

[ezhoops]

By time I woke up I couldn't really even make out that my WSM was even a fish, the C.C. star works fast. (I have him in there just for that reason) keeps ammonia outbreaks to Zero

[reefcrazy420]

can u resticky this ?? plz why was it unstickied? lol

[JHardman]

Might have something to do with this post... :lol:

[jvschlegel]

Originally posted by JHardman
1) There are very few cases of long term success with keeping multiple pairs of clowns. The one case that I am most familiar with has been running for about 5 years and to date has only had one fish killed. I don't recommend trying it; it is very rare that it works out long term. Remember clowns can live for decades.

The difference between black A. Ocellaris and orange A. Ocellaris is just that, one is primarily black and the other orange. They are the same species of clownfish.

2) Yes a pair will form. However it takes considerably longer and may result in much more fighting and damage especially to the odd man out fish.

3) Depends on the fish. If all added at the same time the chances are better.

HTH


I have an orange A. Ocellaris that is about 3" long and in my tank with a yellow tang for about 1 year. Could I get a black A. Ocellaris and mate them? I am getting that you can do this from your post, but would like to double check before I purchase this fish and maybe cause harm to it.

thank, and I have read the majority of this thread, and rest about mating this type of clown, but have not, or don't recall a definate answer. Is it going to be a long time as you stated above for the black and orange Ocellaris to mate up, or for 3 of them to mate up?

thank,
jon

[Atticus]

You will have better success with 2... The third fish becomes a distraction and will be trying to fight for the male position since you have an established female. The only worry about crossing the black and orange ocellaris is that the recesive variant will be weakened or bread out. If you are not looking to sell the fry or are willing to let people know that you are selling a hybrid I say go for it. I persoanlly have seen many fry come from crossed pairs and the first line look just fine, it is later line breedings that could be a larger issue.

[jvschlegel]

thanks, I am not trying to sell them. I would like to get one more clown because I think they are cool fish. I am only going to get 2, my female, and another non sex. I am going to pick one up today that is about 1" long, and just got to the fish store today from the breader.

What do you meen that the recesive variant will be weakened, or bread out? Is this that the weaker gene will go away, and the fry will be only one color? Will the fry be of both color for the first batch, or just one of the 2 colors? Regardless, I am getting this fish to add another clown but of a different color.

thanks

[Atticus]

The fry of a mixed pair end up at about a 50-50 split between full blacks and full oranges. By breeding those new hybrid fish back with another of the opposite color you will see a less than 50-50 split and coloration may fade...

[jvschlegel]

thanks for the info

[naclh20]

Thanks for the clear and informative email on pairing clownfish - only wish I'd read it before purchasing the 4 cinnamon (melanopus) clownfish from ETropicals about 3 weeks ago.
After seeing them fight and each get white bruises and split lips I pulled two out and they are healing well, separated in a QT tank.
The two remaining in the main tank are now fighting. I bought them all with the understanding they were juvenilles, but based on your FAQ, since they are all fighting, are they all females at this point????

I have one anenome in the tank. I'd really appreciate your advice about how to handle it from here. Do I take 3 of them to the LFS and keep one to mature in the anenome, then introduce a true juvenile in a month? Or, do I need to 'test' them in various combinations to see if one is still juvenille?

Thanks so much for the clear explanations.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by naclh20
Thanks for the clear and informative email on pairing clownfish - only wish I'd read it before purchasing the 4 cinnamon (melanopus) clownfish from ETropicals about 3 weeks ago.
After seeing them fight and each get white bruises and split lips I pulled two out and they are healing well, separated in a QT tank.
The two remaining in the main tank are now fighting. I bought them all with the understanding they were juvenilles, but based on your FAQ, since they are all fighting, are they all females at this point????

I have one anenome in the tank. I'd really appreciate your advice about how to handle it from here. Do I take 3 of them to the LFS and keep one to mature in the anenome, then introduce a true juvenile in a month? Or, do I need to 'test' them in various combinations to see if one is still juvenille?

Thanks so much for the clear explanations.

Keep one and introduce a CB juvenile in a month or so. That is one of the problems with getting WC fish that are not paired up, no one can tell for sure what sex/age they are.

[Rottweiler]

Wow, I actuialy read every post, this is realy good information! :) thanks!

I have a 72 gallon, and a very large bta (at least 1 foot across). I added a large maroon(2.5-3 inches) and a samller one (1.5 inches). this was three days ago. Their first meeting in the tank went realy well, the smaller one turned on his side and shook when she came towards him, and she stopped her attack. he even kissed her on the cheek.
then she found the anemone, and has sicne ignored him except to chase him to the other side of the tank. I havent seen any submissive behavoir from him in the last few days but he does run from her.

yesterday she swam out of the anemone to the other side of the tank just to chase him. today she deosnt want to leave the anemone and has even brought it food! :D

I can see his fins(mainly his tail and the fin above his tail) are missing some small pieces, its worse today than it was yesterday, but I have two damsel fish in there that I think are picking on him too. they are larger than he is. (I have been trying to catch them but they are pretty smart!)

I'm wondering if she has rejected him now, or if they are just bickering and will eventuialy pair up. Also, how long should I leave him in before I call it quits ?

Thankyou !!

[JHardman]

You should be OK, give them a little time and keep an eye on his damage level.

[sonofgaladriel]

My female black perc has spent the last few days just laying around inside her colt coral. She is literally just laying there atop the colts large central stalk and branches, snuggles with it ocassionally, but doesn't move much.
She appears to be fine when I stick my hand in there (to make sure she is still alive), but she is not swimming around much. The male is out and about all the time but also swims into the colt and lays there with her. The last two feedings she would not come out to feed. This is what worried me the most.
The pair normally swim throughout the tank.
Is this normal behavior for her? Could she just be settling in or is she possibly sick? Could this be a precursor for egg laying?
I have not had mated clowns before this, so this is all new to me.
Tank parameters are all withing norms and no new additions that would stress her out.
Thanks for the opinions/advice.
_________________
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you" Gandalf

[Atticus]

sonofgaladriel,
Welcome to Reef Central!!! Wish I could do the cool Welcome logo... :D How long have you had your pair? If they were recently purchased or another fish recently added without QT you might have a sick fish. Is there any white stringy feces or heavy breathing that you witnessed?

[want2reef]

I have a 1" black saddleback I have had for about 3 months now.

My question is, can I add 2" Saddleback I have located, or should I get one the same size?


Kevin.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by want2reef
I have a 1" black saddleback I have had for about 3 months now.

My question is, can I add 2" Saddleback I have located, or should I get one the same size?


Kevin.

Is your current fish WC or CB? If CB how old is the fish?

[want2reef]

I wish I could tell ya. The store I got "it" from couldn't tell me.

I can tell ya one thing, "it" loves my LTA!

Kevin.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by want2reef
I wish I could tell ya. The store I got "it" from couldn't tell me.

I can tell ya one thing, "it" loves my LTA!

Kevin.

I think we can safely assume the fish is WC then. That being the case there is no way to tell the age of the fish, so again we can safely assume that it is old enough to have and change sex.

You should assume that the fish you have now is a female and find a small fish to try to pair it with.

[sonofgaladriel]

Atticus- She shows no signs of being ill. She has started eating again, but will not venture more than a few inches from the colt coral host. She continues to lay utop the main stalk and branches but will chase away fish that come near her.
I am glad that she is eating again, but she will not leave the vicinity of the colt for the food, whereas before she would swim the tank to grab food.
I have given her a thorough inspection and there are no signs of infection, parasites, loss of weight, or shallow breathing.
I have not seen any egg deposits either.

[Atticus]

I doubt you will see egg depositing as these clowns are fairly difficult to get to spawn. I think you are just seeing the hosting behavior.

[Rare Angels]

Does anyone have a compilation on pairing/spawning behaivoir that are specific to certain clowns? I have heard that some Skunks have a different way of showing submission, etc

It would be great if there was special information like this out there.

[JHardman]

Skunks... Well they tend to have more or less the same behaviors as other complexes. Where the difference lays is that the skunks can not quite make the quiver like other species. IMO that is from their incredible flexibility.

What I see with my skunks...

1) Dominate fish attacks.

2) Submissive fish takes up a perpendicular position to the dominate fish.

3) The submissive fish turns it's belly towards to the dominate fish.

4) The dominate fish goes more or less vertical and stops.

Pretty much the same as other species, except no real quiver. Sometime I see something that looks like they are trying to quiver, but it never really comes out as one.

[saltydawg24]

awesome art. i 'am p/u my pair soon from my local fish store.
thanx for the info.
saltydwag24

[johnbooko]

i finally got my pair of WC GSM's. the female is huge! i would say 6-7 inches. the male is about 1.5 inches and they say its a GS but its mis-barred with thin white bars. i have seen some mis-barred white stripes turn into gold stripes but that is not my issue. i was just curious as to whether the sexual maturity of the male would be noticeable by the stripes. the size difference is so dramatic i cant even imagine them laying eggs. its like a 900 lb wife with a 90 lb husband that only drinks prune juice. they are definately a bonded pair but if they are or ever were a mating pair is questionable. i know she is sexualy mature just what about the guy wearing the pants? thanks again for your brilliance.

john booko

[johnbooko]

One more thing john!

i was reading some of your old posts and i noticed you said something about a season change stimulating a spawn (possibly).
i was just curious what temp you used to simulate winter. i am guessing around 78 and then raising to 82 but you are the man and i was just checking. thanks again

john booko

[JHardman]

Originally posted by johnbooko
i finally got my pair of WC GSM's. the female is huge! i would say 6-7 inches. the male is about 1.5 inches and they say its a GS but its mis-barred with thin white bars. i have seen some mis-barred white stripes turn into gold stripes but that is not my issue. i was just curious as to whether the sexual maturity of the male would be noticeable by the stripes. the size difference is so dramatic i cant even imagine them laying eggs. its like a 900 lb wife with a 90 lb husband that only drinks prune juice. they are definately a bonded pair but if they are or ever were a mating pair is questionable. i know she is sexualy mature just what about the guy wearing the pants? thanks again for your brilliance.

john booko

Chances are really good that you have a white stripe male. It is unlikely to see one come in WC that is still white in the bars.

Yes he could very well be mature. I have had spawning males smaller than that. They were absolutely worthless at tending the nest, but they got the most important part of their job done.

IME GSM are pretty easy to get spawning. Generally you mess with temp with difficult spawners. If I was you, I would...

1) Feed to saturation 3+ times a day with a good varied diet.

2) Photo period with night light of 12-13 hours.

3) Water temp at ~82°F

4) Wait 4-6 months for signs of cleaning. If you don't see any cleaning by this point, then start adding BBS and/or Cyclop-eeze in the AM and PM.

[johnbooko]

awesome! thanks! i have really watched your stuff and its been very interesting and i saw that you have some video clips. do you have any clips of your GSM's. maybe some of them cleaning or even spawning? i think that would be very interesting. i know there is a vid of some other fish spawning in the faq but i think it would be helpful to set up a link for just clips, and i havent seen any of two cleaning. im sure its pretty obvious what it looks like but those clips can really inspire a person in this hobby i believe. thanks for your help.

john booko

[Atticus]

When they are seriously cleaning you can obviously tell. They will be side by side mouthing the nest site. You will notice it more in the first hour the lights come on and the last couple hours before the lights go off with they spuratically cleaning alone throughout the day. They will really kick it in the day\night before they lay a clutch.

[johnbooko]

i know what cleaning looks like but i was just saying how having a faq with just videos in it would be cool. my last post was very unclear. i am going to definately get some vids posted when it actually happens. i just think it would be helpful to everyone.

thanks
john booko

[BondUniverse]

I just bought 2 ORA Maroon Clowns, about 1" or less from head to base of tail. They have been fighting for the past 3 days now. I had one anenome when I introduced them, and just yesterday bought a BTA thinking that maybe one would take to each, but the fighting hasn't stopped. Is there any chance that they will pair up, or do I need to seperate them?

[JHardman]

Originally posted by BondUniverse
I just bought 2 ORA Maroon Clowns, about 1" or less from head to base of tail. They have been fighting for the past 3 days now. I had one anenome when I introduced them, and just yesterday bought a BTA thinking that maybe one would take to each, but the fighting hasn't stopped. Is there any chance that they will pair up, or do I need to seperate them?

It is possible they will pair, but it is VERY unlikely. It is much more likely they will fight to the point that one or both die. You will need to try to follow the pairing guide lines I outline for maroons. You need one large and one small fish.

[BondUniverse]

Yeah, I've decided that they are not going to pair up now. I'm trying to catch one of them right now and then will try and find him a new home. Then I'll either wait til the other one grows to about 3" and get a smaller one, or look for a mated pair of Gold Stripe Maroons. Great post by the way! Wish I would have read it BEFORE I bought them!

[pizzamiglio]

OK first off let me say: JHardman- Incredible job! This post is amazing…..I only wish I had found it earlier.

I have a GSM (approx 1.5” from head to base of caudal) in my 92 corner. The bars are a vibrant gold. The LFS was unable to tell me weather or not it was CB, so I assume it is a WC and is probably female. (Didn’t assume this at the time of purchase though, only after reading this post did I come to that conclusion.)

I bought another GSM (approx 1.25” from head to base of caudal). Again, no indication as to CB or WC, so WC is assumed. But this one only had one bar that is turning gold and the other two are barely yellow. (Don’t know if this means it is an “it”, or a “he” or a “she” :confused: )

When I first introduced the new GSM, the old GSM immediately rushed. They both grabbed onto each other’s pectoral fins and were spinning around in circles. This continued for a few min, and then the new one ran off. The old one went back to the BTA and the new one hides in the corner next to the powerhead. When the old one sees the new one, she rushes out and gives chase, then goes back to the BTA.

They have not exhibited the “lip locking” of two females, yet they have not shown any sideways turning, seizures, or any other submissive behavior. I realize now that the problem is they are both about the same size, and since they are assumed WC, they could have already changed sex. My question is: is this a lost cause, trying to get to GSM’s of approx the same size who were not introduced together to pair up? Thanks.

[Vert20]

First how long have you had the original GSM in the tank by itself?

Was the new clown in a community tank at the LFS or alone?

GSM start off as Wite Striped, then it changes to yellow...as yours is doing which to me would indicate juvinile status.

Experts can correct me if I am wrong here.

[pizzamiglio]

Originally posted by Vert20
First how long have you had the original GSM in the tank by itself?

Was the new clown in a community tank at the LFS or alone?

GSM start off as Wite Striped, then it changes to yellow...as yours is doing which to me would indicate juvinile status.

Experts can correct me if I am wrong here.


Original GSM has been in the tank since 3/24/04.

New one was the only GSM in the tank at LFS, but there was a couple of small false percs in the tank also. (Don't know if that makes a difference or not)

[JHardman]

Originally posted by pizzamiglio
OK first off let me say: JHardman- Incredible job! This post is amazing…..I only wish I had found it earlier.

I have a GSM (approx 1.5” from head to base of caudal) in my 92 corner. The bars are a vibrant gold. The LFS was unable to tell me weather or not it was CB, so I assume it is a WC and is probably female. (Didn’t assume this at the time of purchase though, only after reading this post did I come to that conclusion.)

I bought another GSM (approx 1.25” from head to base of caudal). Again, no indication as to CB or WC, so WC is assumed. But this one only had one bar that is turning gold and the other two are barely yellow. (Don’t know if this means it is an “it”, or a “he” or a “she” :confused: )

When I first introduced the new GSM, the old GSM immediately rushed. They both grabbed onto each other’s pectoral fins and were spinning around in circles. This continued for a few min, and then the new one ran off. The old one went back to the BTA and the new one hides in the corner next to the powerhead. When the old one sees the new one, she rushes out and gives chase, then goes back to the BTA.

They have not exhibited the “lip locking” of two females, yet they have not shown any sideways turning, seizures, or any other submissive behavior. I realize now that the problem is they are both about the same size, and since they are assumed WC, they could have already changed sex. My question is: is this a lost cause, trying to get to GSM’s of approx the same size who were not introduced together to pair up? Thanks.

The two fish are too close in size. It is very unlikely you will get a pairing with these two fish. Maroons need to be presented with the overwhelming threat of death to submit, and having another fish that is close in size is not going to do it.

I would recommend returning one of them and growing out the other to at least 2.5" (larger would be better) then try a pairing then with a small <1" fish.

[pizzamiglio]

I was afraid of that. I put the new one in a "safe house" (drilled out my large collection cup and put a few pieces of LR in it to weight it down), and placed it next to the BTA before I went to work tonight. When I came home, the new one is right next to the wall of the box, and the old one is right next to the new one. The old one is not trying to break the box open, and the new one does not look scared, but.......*shrug* I will let the new one out tomorrow afternoon, and if things don't look any better I will take it back to the LFS immediately. Thank you very much JHardman and Vert20. Your guidance is greatly appreciated.

[fishman24]

hey J hardman i have 2 false perculas for about a year and they havent bred yet. I want to know what im doing wrong??? There in a 37 gallon reef ready tank. One of them have done the quiver and one has grown bigger than the other. So is it just a matter of time before they breed??

[JHardman]

Originally posted by fishman24
hey J hardman i have 2 false perculas for about a year and they havent bred yet. I want to know what im doing wrong??? There in a 37 gallon reef ready tank. One of them have done the quiver and one has grown bigger than the other. So is it just a matter of time before they breed??

A bit off topic for this thread...

If you will start a new thread and list your tank conditions; lighting period, SG, water temp, what and how often you are feeding, I am sure we can help figure things out for you.

[pizzamiglio]

Update on my GSM's. OK, so after a few tries I figured things were just not going to work out. The problem was though, that my female had handed a pretty bad beating to the male before I would get him in a safehouse. So I decided to keep him in the tank until his fins grew back....all of them. Anyways, he has been in the little box for over 3 weeks and finally he was looking good enough to go back to the LFS where he could get another home. So I open the little box to get him out, and he swims out and right over to my female and her BTA. She comes at him, (I'm thinking....oh great...gotta get him out quick before she whoops up on him again.) he does the little dance and turns sideways, and she LEAVES HIM ALONE!!! So, I spend most of the afternoon watching them, to make sure there are no a$$whippings in progress. After I came home from picking the kids up from school and the wife up from work I check on them, and they are both in the same BTA. I was stoked!! It took a long time (going on almost a month) but they are finally together. Just thought I'd share. Have a good evening all :)

[k_kagy]

I am trying to pair some true percs. and had a question. I bought a true perc. today, with the full black all the way to the tip of his tail and he or she is about 2", most likely a female.

I wanted to get another one, but the only ones left were about 1.5-2", so I didn't want to take the chance. When looking for a juvenile, should I also watch out for how the utilize the tank there in, meaning if they stick to one area and are more territorial then I would assume its a female and if it is more of a wonderer, than assume male. I want to get the smallest one possible, but its hard to find small onyx true percs.
Thanks

[JHardman]

Originally posted by k_kagy
I am trying to pair some true percs. and had a question. I bought a true perc. today, with the full black all the way to the tip of his tail and he or she is about 2", most likely a female.

I wanted to get another one, but the only ones left were about 1.5-2", so I didn't want to take the chance. When looking for a juvenile, should I also watch out for how the utilize the tank there in, meaning if they stick to one area and are more territorial then I would assume its a female and if it is more of a wonderer, than assume male. I want to get the smallest one possible, but its hard to find small onyx true percs.
Thanks

At 2" you can not make an assumption about sex at all. It could be a small female, a large male or a male turning into a female.

I have successfully paired them with the size difference you would have. However I knew the sex for sure when I did it as I half of two pairs and was able to place a small female with a good sized male.

The safest route would be to growout the fish you have and wait it out for a small. You can take a shot at it, but be prepared to return the new fish.

A. percula can be VERY rough in the pairing. One of the classics for this species is for the dominate female to bite the pectoral fin of the other fish and hold them for several minutes until they go completely still. The problems come in when the submissive doesn't go still, the struggling or aggression from the dominate fish can easily result in the pectoral fin being ripped out or bitten off completely. If you decide to go for it, do it on a day when you can watch them all day, as this type of thing can go on all day or even for a couple of days before they get things really worked out. On the bright side, once they form a pair bond it is one of the strongest you will see in clownfish, VERY dedicated males.

[k_kagy]

Good information. Should I wait for the smallest perc possible or should I get one close to 1" to 1.5" no more so it won't get to pushed around or do I want that. I just don't want to get another female, that is if I have one already.

About showing dominance in the tanks at my LFS, would more aggression show or lean towards female, even for a smaller fish.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by k_kagy
Good information. Should I wait for the smallest perc possible or should I get one close to 1" to 1.5" no more so it won't get to pushed around or do I want that. I just don't want to get another female, that is if I have one already.
You can take a shot, I figure you have a 50/50 chance, maybe a little better.

Originally posted by k_kagy
About showing dominance in the tanks at my LFS, would more aggression show or lean towards female, even for a smaller fish.
You can't judge anything by that as these are WC fish in a totally unnatural setting.

[k_kagy]

I was wondering if a clownfish that is still sexless will quiver to a female?
Here is a pic of my two clowns.
The smaller one has been in the same tank with the larger one for about a week now. They enjoy to swim around the tank together, but the larger one likes her anemone to herself.
I have seen the little guy quiver once for a very short time and only once. Usually when the female charges they male darts away with no harm.
Will these two guys form a bond in the future?
<http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=37510&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500>.
<http://reefcentral.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=37511&papass=&sort=1&thecat=500>.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by k_kagy
I was wondering if a clownfish that is still sexless will quiver to a female?

The quiver is a submissive behavior and has little to do with being sexless or not, but aggression and submission.

You likely have the good beginnings of a solid pair bond there.

[Bergtril]

Thanks for the very useful info JHardman.

After purchasing a pair of Ocellaris clowns a few months back and watching them swim around near the surface of my tank...and not go anywhere near my BTA (which has already split), I decided to move them to another tank and purchase a pair of Maroons, which would likely host.

It took less than 2 days for one Maroon to host but the dominance issue has yet to be resolved. I purchased two at the same time in the hope that it would reduce the fighting (which has been savage!!!). It's been 4 days now without a divider, but having read your post, I think I should have separated them (and I probably will). The less dominant clown has had all its fins nipped. Poor little critter.

Thanks again for the info. I wish I had found it a bit earlier, but it's still useful.

Bergtril

[johns]

JHardman-

I asked this question in a different thread in this forum, but no real discussion is going on. I know you are an expert at this sort of thing, so I thought I'd ask you here. My concern is regarding the pairing up of an ocellaris and true percula (onyx?) which i recieved at the LFS last week.

The other thread can be found here for reference:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=399442

and pictures are in my gallery, if needed

here's the last post to the above-mentioned thread

thanks in advance for any help



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vert20
Looking at the eyes, it looks like an Onyx and Ocellaris to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Exactly what I was thinking. I already knew one was a percula and one an oscellaris. I even knew when I bought them that the LFS owner was probably wrong in his insistance that they were both true percs. When I got them home and started thinking about it more, I wasn't sure what to think. I mean, I had been being really patient and I was definitely holding out for a pair of true percs. Somehow, the neat looking 'onxy' pattern of the one coupled with the insistance of the owner...next thing you know I'm taking them home with me (and a pretty good price at only $20 a piece). But, I dont know, the pair is growing on me - they seem healthy and happy - they seem to get along for now - they dont outright fight (maybe playfully a bit?)

Given that, do you think these will wind up as an ok pair? Would there be more problems getting them to breed? How about getting them to host in a coral?

[OrionN]

TTT

[Reefs1]

I am looking for an answer to this question as well. I have a pair of True Perc and Black Perc that seem to be getting along well. Can having a pair like be a problem?

[oama]

Jhardmans latest info on cross pairing: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=412121

Thought it might be of some use here.

[oneblackhorse]

Originally posted by JHardman

Grow out technique:
With this technique two small juvenile clownfish are purchased at the same time and introduced into the tank at the same time. The fish will establish a dominate submissive relationship as they mature and eventually form a pair bond. This technique works the vast majority of the time.

This technique should not be applied to Premnas species (maroon) clownfish.

This worked with my new maroons. I bought a small and large one. They never fought and have been together for 1 week. The smaller one is exhibiting submissiveness. When nipped at by the bigger clown, the smaller one drops back close to the tail of the bigger one, shimmies and gives little nibbles to the bigger fish. This satisfies the big fish and they swim around behaving themselves quite well. I am hoping that they are bonding.

The pair bond is a developing thing. It starts out as a general acceptance of each other. Then slowly develops into a closer relationship were both fish are together most of the time. There is a bickering phase too where the female will make sure the male knows who is the boss. During this time it is not uncommon to find the poor little dejected male cowering near their normal host/territory. But don’t worry this is normal and the male will be accepted back sooner or later.

Are you talking about clownfish or my last relationship? :lol:

[blorkiemom]

I'm sure this has been answered somewhere but I've read this thread (a great one!) and searched the forum and can't find it. Are there any guidelines about how long the bickering phase lasts?

I ask because I have 2 small (1 1/2 inch, unfortunately both the same size) CB black percs (that's what the LFS said, at least--from what I've read they might be ocellaris) in QT. They've been together for a month (2 weeks at the store, 2 weeks in my tank) and after acting like pals one started being aggressive to the other this weekend (2 days ago). She (I use the term loosely since who knows at this point) has the other one crammed under the PVC pipe in the tank on his side most of the time, though she does let him eat. I don't think I've seen him "quiver"--I'm expecting that that looks distinctive, but he just lies on his side and flaps his fins. Anyway, she harrasses him just about non-stop but there's no damage I can see so far. All of this seems normal, from what I've read here, but I wonder how long the little guy's going to have to cower in terror! I hope days rather than weeks.

[JHardman]

Originally posted by blorkiemom
I hope days rather than weeks.

I doubt your hopes will be met. Black A. ocellaris are nasty little fish (towards each other anyway). IME it will take between 2-4 months with two that are more or less equal in size.

[blorkiemom]

Oy! Well, I hope he's tough! She's not beating him up, but he's gotta be stressed. Thanks for the info, JHardman--this whole thread is a tremendous help.

[traveller7]

My experience matches JHardman's. A "pr" of black A. ocellaris have been scrapping since spring. In this case the larger of the two has put on a recent growth spurt which I hope ends the war :rolleyes: btw: "war" means grabbing each others pectorals and shaking, alot :(

fwiw: Another of the former black trio has been matched up with a 10+ year old orange A. ocellaris and they get along pretty well overall but have not established who is boss.

[blorkiemom]

Update on those black percs, which I now know for sure are Ocellaris (dang LFS) . . . the fighting seems to be mostly over. It lasted about 3 days. She still rushes at him on occasion. He quivers at her sometimes, she quivers back sometimes. They still don't always hang together, but I hope the worst is over. (fingers crossed) Thanks for helping me out with this!

[aqua5]

i have a 40 gallon reef tank with one 2"+ osc clown.(i think)and a sixlined wrasse.


question 1.)if i bouht another clown of the same type what size should i get?
2.)how long will the "bickering" go on for?
3.)what are the signs that the small clown is being beatun up to much and needs to be taken out?
4.)how long will the eggs survive for without them trying to be raised?
5.)is there a thread on how to raise them?
6.)i have a berlin sump, 50lbs lr, and a 2 inch sand bed and a skimmer,what parameters do the eggs need to survive?
7.)what is the chance my clown will have no intrest in the new clown to be his mate?



thanks alot
and what book about clownfish pairing/raising would you reccomend?

[Atticus]

Originally posted by aqua5
i have a 40 gallon reef tank with one 2"+ osc clown.(i think)and a sixlined wrasse.


question 1.)if i bouht another clown of the same type what size should i get?
2.)how long will the "bickering" go on for?
3.)what are the signs that the small clown is being beatun up to much and needs to be taken out?
4.)how long will the eggs survive for without them trying to be raised?
5.)is there a thread on how to raise them?
6.)i have a berlin sump, 50lbs lr, and a 2 inch sand bed and a skimmer,what parameters do the eggs need to survive?
7.)what is the chance my clown will have no intrest in the new clown to be his mate?



thanks alot
and what book about clownfish pairing/raising would you reccomend?

1. Small ocellaris
2. Depends on the fish
3. Not too big of a chance with a small ocellaris
4. The parents will raise them until hatch (about 7-8 days)
5. Read the clownfish FAQ at the top of this forum
6. Best water quality possible
7. Not much ocellaris are breeders

Get Joyce Wilkerson's CLOWNFISHES book

[doh1771]

I bought 2 maroons; one that was 2.5" and the other about 1.25" long. They have been in my 85 gallon tank for about 2 and a half weeks. When the light is on, the big one, as expected, chases the smaller one around. The smaller one has suffered some fin/tail damage but both are eating like pigs. At night, each seems to have found its own little spot not too far from each other to sleep. Should they have paired up by now, if they are to pair up at all? Should I keep them together a bit longer or give up and pull the smaller out? TIA.

[trueclown]

Can anyone clarify for me. I have two clowns one true percula- (orange with more black than a false) and a false Is it possible that these two will become paired and spawn or are they separate species. I got them both when they were smaller but the one is bigger than the other

[Atticus]

They can pair and can spawn with viable young. Now if the young can spawn I don't know for sure.

[jackief]

Fascinating thread. I have a similar query to a previous poster.. I am in the UK where black percs are very much less common than the predominantly red percs (I don't mean the black & white occelaris, but percs with less black than the ones referred to as black clowns....).

The available black percs are, in my experience, routinely about 2 inches to 2 inches plus and usually seen singly or in small groups of 3/4 identically sized creatures in a tank.
I had almost given up on obtaining a pair, so when I saw a 2.5 inch black perc on it's own I bought it (it/he/she had just been bought in from TMC, not certain if it had been housed in a group but I will ask)
I have had this fish 3 weeks and, you guessed it, another has appeared from the same source and is slightly smaller (about 1.75-2 inches. Isn't it hard trying to get the measurenment of a moving fish!!!. I am going to speak to fish shop owner tomorrow and ask if it was in a communal tank at TMC.
So
If it was, do you think I have a chance of a buying this new fish and successfully establishing a pair?????
Apologies if this post is unclear or accidentally repetative!
Regards
Jackie

[Clarkii Clowns]

Clarkii clowns have been known in very few occasions to return to male from female.

just my 2 cents

[jackief]

An update with some observations. The lfs informed me that eac h perc had originally been in a seperate tank BUT in visual/adjacent contact with other black percs.
...Does this visual contact mean that the clowns maintain a sexless phase although both are in the over 1.5 inch stage?

I have bought the second, slightly smaller perc, mentioned in previous post. I have put him in my other clowns tank but have maintained him in an acrylic "safety" cage within the tank. In other words, they are in close visual contact but cannot touch each other.
They BOTH attempted to rush each other/bite at each others mouths (mouth lock?) through acclimatisation bag and then the safety cage. The smaller of the two , after several minutes, then tilted his/her body upwards and or donwards...sometimes "exposing" his/her belly and showing some slight quivering. This is interspersed with occasional biting attempts through the acrylic barrier.
I have had lights off overnight and they are now parrallelling on anothers swimming actions. I.e. they are staying side by side in the same area. The original perc usually swims throughout the tank but is staying beside the new perc. The new perc is also "choosing" to stay in the same vicinity as the other, slightly larger fish. He/she could move to the other side of acrylic cage but isn't.
Not sure if this is signs of progress or continued aggression. I am wondering if you folk can advise?
Regards
Jackie

[jackief]

An update with some observations. The lfs informed me that eac h perc had originally been in a seperate tank BUT in visual/adjacent contact with other black percs.
...Does this visual contact mean that the clowns maintain a sexless phase although both are in the over 1.5 inch stage?

I have bought the second, slightly smaller perc, mentioned in previous post. I have put him in my other clowns tank but have maintained him in an acrylic "safety" cage within the tank. In other words, they are in close visual contact but cannot touch each other.
They BOTH attempted to rush each other/bite at each others mouths (mouth lock?) through acclimatisation bag and then the safety cage. The smaller of the two , after several minutes, then tilted his/her body upwards and or donwards...sometimes "exposing" his/her belly and showing some slight quivering. This is interspersed with occasional biting attempts through the acrylic barrier.
I have had lights off overnight and they are now parrallelling on anothers swimming actions. I.e. they are staying side by side in the same area. The original perc usually swims throughout the tank but is staying beside the new perc. The new perc is also "choosing" to stay in the same vicinity as the other, slightly larger fish. He/she could move to the other side of acrylic cage but isn't.
Not sure if this is signs of progress or continued aggression. I am wondering if you folk can advise?
Regards
Jackie

[jackief]

An update with some observations. The lfs informed me that each perc had originally been in a seperate tank BUT in visual/adjacent contact with other black percs.
...Does this visual contact mean that the clowns maintain a sexless phase although both are in the over 1.5 inch stage?

I have bought the second, slightly smaller perc, mentioned in previous post. I have put him in my other clowns tank but have maintained him in an acrylic "safety" cage within the tank. In other words, they are in close visual contact but cannot touch each other.
They BOTH attempted to rush each other/bite at each others mouths (mouth lock?) through acclimatisation bag and then the safety cage. The smaller of the two , after several minutes, then tilted his/her body upwards and or donwards...sometimes "exposing" his/her belly and showing some slight quivering. However, this is interspersed with occasional biting attempts through the acrylic barrier.
I have had lights off overnight and they are now parrallelling one anothers swimming actions. I.e. they are staying virtually side by side in the same area, with only the acrylic seperating them. The original perc usually swims throughout the tank but is staying beside the new perc. The new perc is also "choosing" to stay in the same vicinity as the other, slightly larger fish. He/she could move to the other side of acrylic cage but isn't.
Not sure if this is signs of progress or continued aggression. I am wondering if you folk can advise?
Regards
Jackie

[JHardman]

Jackie what speices are we talking about here? A. percula or A. ocellaris?

[jackief]

A.percula. Apologies if my description was misleading. They are whhat some refer to as true percs with a lot of black (larger one resembles what some of you on RC call Onyx?)
Regards
Jackie

[JHardman]

IME A. percula tend to form pairs in the wild with with very small males, typically 1" total length or less with a female of 3"+.

With the two you have over about 2", chances are pretty good that they are both female, the larger for sure and the second I would rate at 90%+ chance of already being female.

You can try to release them together, but keep in mind A. percula are harsh in pairing and if you have two females, you might have one female if you are not there to react...

BTW, the thing about A. clarkii going male, then female and back to male is wrong. It is a one way trip, once a male, never to be sexless again, once a female, never to be male again.

[jackief]

Many thanks, I will keep them seperately and continue the search for <1 inch potential males. I would not want to risk harming either! Thank you so much for the information. Perhaps I am being overcautious in not "giving the free-swimming a go" with this pair but I would hate to cause damage through a slow response.
Thanks again
Jackie
ps I saw a beautiful, established tank today with two black perc pairs. This tank was only 4 footX 2 foot X 2 foot. My husband has been offered this tank but I was wondering regarding two perc pairs, especially as they are to be disturbed


As a matter of intetrest.

[edrive]

I have a true perc about 2.5" & I've been thinking about trying to find her a mate. I've had many different people give me advice & they are never the same. (LFS reps, friends, etc.)

My question: My percula has been the only clown in my 30g reef tank for about 2 years. There are 2 small damsels with her & a couple snails. I just got her a host sebae a few days ago & she loves it. Is it ok to add a small percula to this tank? If so, what size? I was thinking about an inch.

Thanks in advance.

[Atticus]

go with the smallest you can find.

[edrive]

Thanks Atticus.

Looks like I'm going shopping this weekend!

[EMBRYOGUY]

jhartman, i have a maroon and a true perc together. they sleep in same area and hang and swim together most of the time. what are the chances of them mating? or will they just forever be freinds.

the odd thing is that the perc seems to be the more dominant of the two. the maroon occasionally gets its fins riped during the night. but they never seem to fight during the day.

any thoughts on this?

[clownlover9996]

my feale perc clown is stutruing in the way its swiming. whats happening?

[bigfish_oz]

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/23597Clown___Anemone.jpg

The photo shown is of one of my clowns which I think is A. melanopus or A. frenatus. It is about 1.5 inches long and lives in the BTA (hey it was given to me, ok!).

The other clown is about 3 inches long and does not venture into the BTA but is generally fairly close (6-8 inches except at dinner time).

From time to time, the smaller of the two will swim in front of the other and make as if it is trying to herd the big one into the anemone. The big one will move a little of the way towards the BTA but then move off again. This activity occurs fairly regularly.

Can you explain what is happening here?

What activity should I expect to see if/when they begin bonding?

[sid700]

Hi. I am wondering how old an Ocellaris has to be in order to spawn. Also about what size would this fish be in inches. Thank you.

[d_icemand]

awesome thread! im a newb and had a question. my tank is fairly new. (24jbj) I picked out a pair of clowns from a group of 10 or so at the lfs. the have been in the tank for a couple of weeks now and i noticed one doing the seisures. i was worried as can be!!!!!! now it seems to be settled down a bit. i was wanting to add another fish to my tank---what would happen if this "mating/pairing" process is still going on???? it will be of another speicies but im not sure what to get. right now they are my only fish, with the clean up crew. is it ok to add another fish (as long as the water parameters are good)?????

[d_icemand]

also, i have these Ocellaris clowns but im scared to get an anenome. what else will they enjoy and host in????????

[SuperNerd]

...

[SuperNerd]

Originally posted by d_icemand
i was wanting to add another fish to my tank---what would happen if this "mating/pairing" process is still going on???? it will be of another speicies but im not sure what to get. right now they are my only fish, with the clean up crew. is it ok to add another fish (as long as the water parameters are good)?????


also, i have these Ocellaris clowns but im scared to get an anenome. what else will they enjoy and host in????????


Something other than more clownfish...such as a neon goby or something that stays very small? By the way my juvenile true perc pair host in Xenia Elongata and "smack" hermit crabs with their tails if they get in between the stalks. :smokin:
They even snuggle in frilly/"fuzzy" mushrooms but prefer the Xenia.

[SuperNerd]

Originally posted by blorkiemom
Update on those black percs, which I now know for sure are Ocellaris (dang LFS) . . . the fighting seems to be mostly over. It lasted about 3 days. She still rushes at him on occasion. He quivers at her sometimes, she quivers back sometimes. They still don't always hang together, but I hope the worst is over. (fingers crossed) Thanks for helping me out with this!

Sounds like the hierarchy in my household. :p

[SuperNerd]

Originally posted by Clarkii Clowns
Clarkii clowns have been known in very few occasions to return to male from female.

just my 2 cents

I thought once they went female they coudn't go back :confused:

[Atticus]

Originally posted by Andraska
I thought once they went female they coudn't go back :confused:

Clarks are the documented RARE occasion.

[SuperNerd]

Atticus,

What the heck is that thing in your gallery? ("You lookin at me????")
That thing makes me want to look under my bed at night. :eek1:

[Atticus]

Originally posted by Andraska
Atticus,

What the heck is that thing in your gallery? ("You lookin at me????")
That thing makes me want to look under my bed at night. :eek1:


LOL, found that in my tank after 5 years of not adding a rock... He decided he wanted to watch the super bowl with us and came out of the rock that evening. It is a ribbon or round worm. Supposedly rare to see one live and grow that long in captivity. He was supposed to go to the Omaha Zoo, but I lost contact with the Reef Exhibit person. So... he has been shacked up with a pair of lesbian tomatoes (don't ask... :D ) for the past 6 months.

[d_icemand]

I wanna hear more about the lesbian tomatoes!

[Dan the sea man]

I am thinking about purchaseing two juvys . Maroon clownfish. Now i have a rose BTA will they both host it being juvys. and eventually over time when they mature will they pair up?

[Atticus]

Short answer is yes.

The long answer is that may not be the route you want to go with maroons. I personally prefer to start with an established female and then add a mate when it comes to maroons. Many have had success the other route, but there is more of a chance of a fight for dominance resulting in death of the weaker fish.

[Dan the sea man]

Well I have a pretty small tank i am going to be doing this is..... :-/. I have a 10 gallon nano. i know your all thinking are you crazy!!?!!?!?!!? but then again if i buy them as juvys they are small . and fish dont grow big in small tanks...

[SuperNerd]

Originally posted by Dan the sea man
fish dont grow big in small tanks...

They actually become stunted in growth and die pre-maturely. :(

[Atticus]

"They actually become stunted in growth and die pre-maturely."


Only with poor tank maintainance and animal husbandry.



"Well I have a pretty small tank i am going to be doing this is..... :-/. I have a 10 gallon nano. i know your all thinking are you crazy!!?!!?!?!!? but then again if i buy them as juvys they are small . and fish dont grow big in small tanks..."

Yup, you are crazy... :D You actually are picking 3 things that would be in my top ten of readily available items that I would not put in a 10 gallon... #1 being any anemone. They are just to picky as far as water parameters to be healthy in a small volume of water over a long period of time. The clowns will be "OK" for awhile, but if you take care of them they can and will quickly out grow that tank. My example would be my brother's pet Oscar he got when he was 8. He had it in a 10 gallon and in less than 4 months it could not turn sideways without touching 3 panes of glass... I also would point out my breeding pairs of clowns that are housed in small tanks and the many juvenile fish that are packed like sardines into 10 gallon tanks and still grow even though each has less than 1 cup of water to call their own.. :p

[SuperNerd]

Originally posted by Atticus
They actually become stunted in growth and die pre-maturely...
Only with poor tank maintainance and animal husbandry.

Really?
Okay...then I'm off to get a black tip for my nano!:D

[Dan the sea man]

I have a small RBTA so he is good for now i know he will outgrow my tank and all of that good stuff but not for a while (only if i feed it once a week). Now i was only thinking 1 maroon but then a very reliable LFS says that i can have 2 maroons in there...I was like really!!?!?! So thats why i am asking here for advice?!?! I was thinking white stripe maroon instead of gold stripe.Heard they dont get as big? I had a white stripe maroon in a 15 nano and he did fine for like 10 months then i went out of town and got food deprived and died. BUT the pint is he never grew big he only stayed about 2 inches long (i bought him about that big)

[Atticus]

My WSM female is just under 6 inches... :D

[DMK]

i'm going tomorrow to try and pair up maroons for my RBTA. they have 6 small, 1-1.5" white strip maroons and 1 larger, 3.5" gold stripe in it's own tank. should i try pairing up 2 of these small ones. there is only a small difference in size between all of them. i did see a few last week that definately looked like they were paired up( hanging together in RBTA, kissing, etc). since then they sold about 1/2, there was like 12-15 then. my RBTA came from this tank too. i'm sure these ones thta looked like pairs are gone. do i have better luck trying to pair up these small ones or should i buy the larger gold stripe and 1 small white stripe? can WS and GS be together?

[adtravels]

I have a 2inch tomato clown that has been in my tank for a month and is changing colour to a darker red from orange and lives in my bta.
My lfs has a 1 inch juvenile with two strips (the second fading) Can I buy this fish with a view to them pairing them or should I go for a bigger one?

[sniggib]

im thinking of breeding some clownfish so if they spawn how do i raise the young and what do i need to do it??

[traveller7]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6950743#post6950743 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sniggib
im thinking of breeding some clownfish so if they spawn how do i raise the young and what do i need to do it?? Start with the Anemones & Clownfish FAQ's page here:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282136

[NETSECPRO]

This is my first post so please bear with me if I am doing this incorrectly.

First I would just like to say that I am glad I found this site. I have been reading posts for the past week or so, and I'm sure I havent seen everything yet.

Anyway here is my question: I have a 29G tank that has been running for a few months now with about 15lbs. of LR and 20 lbs. Base Rock, and about 12 hermit crabs. I recently (a few days ago) purchased a GoldStripe Maroon Clown from a LFS, its only about an inch in length and has Gold in its stripes, so I am assuming that it is close to a year in age. I had no problems acclimating it to the tank and all seems well. Now my wife is jealous and wants to get the maroon a friend. My question is, would it be a problem to go ahead and add another Gold stripe maroon to my tank? I have read all the posts in this forum and I can't really find an answer to this. The fish really ahsn't had too much time to claim a territory and since it's still small it shouldn't be a problem, right? Please let me know your opinions or recommendations on this. Thanks!