Plumbing Design, is this all ok?

[LennyD4]

These are my plumbing designs for my 65g display with 20L sump. Please let me know what I could do better or what I may be doing completely wrong. As for the return up the back, after reading much on this site I think I will cut out the ball check valve because it seems they are not worth the trouble.

[hillscp]

Looks like a herbie siphon. I have mine set up that way and I really like it. Here are a few questions.

I'm assuming you have some sort of internal overflow where the drain and emergency are?

How big is your sump? Can it hold all the water when the pumps turn off? A lot of water can come down the return it it's 4" under water.
THat being said. . .
Why drill a hole for the return? You might consider just running it over the back.
Skip the check valve too.

Other than that I think you have it right. You will really like a siphon system. Far better than a Durso.

[Playa-1]

I think the sump is way too small for what you are attempting to do. The stand pipes need to be reconfigured, one is way to short. You should loose the check valve. I would go back to the drawing pad and rework the standpipes, add an overflow box, and at least a 20 gallon sump. Even that is on the small side. I also agree with cutting out the ball/check but I would advise you to put in gate valve on the return line to be able to regulate the flow of water into the DT.

[hillscp]

I would advise you to put in gate valve on the return line to be able to regulate the flow of water into the DT.

If it's really a siphon you won't need to regulate the input. That's a trick for noisy dursos. Siphons regulate the drain side.

[LennyD4]

Thanks for the responses.

I have come to the conclusion that I WILL be eliminating the check valve. The sump is a 20 Gallon long sump. The 65g Display DOES have an overflow box, I should have drew that into the plans woops! Also as far as me drilling the hole in the back..I am doing so because I think it is a cleaner look to a system and I really want nothing coming from up top except my cords for powerheads. The reason I am putting it 4" down is because I feel if I drill higher the tank may crack easier. For the return INSIDE the tank I will be using locline...so if I aim the locline up I can't make it closer to the surface so it wouldnt drain 4 inches of water anyway.

Also after doing more research it seems as if I will have to be drilling for a 3/4 bulkhead and have all my return be 3/4" because they dont even make loc-line for 1". It will also help since the output of my return pump is 3/4" anyway.

[Playa-1]

If it's really a siphon you won't need to regulate the input. That's a trick for noisy dursos. Siphons regulate the drain side.

You're assuming that he doesn't have a Mag 24 on there and I'm assuming that he might.

[Playa-1]

The reason I am putting it 4" down is because I feel if I drill higher the tank may crack easier. Just be aware if the seal on the overflow fails then half of your tank will drain onto the floor. It's a trade off. You could still drill it lower but raise the pipe higher into the overflow. That way you will get the benefit of the redundancy of the stand pipe and the overflow box to keep the water in the DT instead of on the floor if something goes wrong.

[LennyD4]

How high do you think i should put my 2 standpipes?

[LennyD4]

And my return is a 714new gph

[Playa-1]

How high do you think i should put my 2 standpipes?
The illustrations that I have looked at on the siphon drains show the stadpipes being very close to each other. The lower one with the valve acts as the primary siphon drain but it is only slightly lower. Remember if the overflow box fails this is what will set your water level in the tank. So the lower it is the more water will drain out of your Display tank in that situation. I would probably have it set a little lower then the skimmer teeth on the overflow box. As far as how to much to offset the two drain systems I'm not sure, maybe an inch. I would suggest that you refer back to the herbie or bean drain system diagrams for the answer to that question. I'm not familiar with the 714new gph pump, I will have to read up on that one :)

[LennyD4]

Haha my stupid smart phone puts words attatched to words after I type sorry. I understand what you are saying now. The higher my main drain is the least amount of water would fill my sump incase of a failure. Wouldn't it have to be atleast a few inches shorter then the emergency stand-pipe being that there has to be significant amount of water above it so that you dont hear the siphoning?

[Playa-1]

I wouldn't think so, but it might be something to research. I'm not running a siphon drain so I'm not that familiar with quirks involved.

[LennyD4]

As for the return I am really starting to think now. Maybe I will just plumb it with 3/4" braided nylon tubing so its easier to do maintenance on different parts and I will just plumb it over the top and avoid all the hastle of drilling the tank.

[hillscp]

Hi Lenny,

I'll chime in again. I have had a Herbie running for two years now. The drain should be low enough to keep from sucking air. If it faces straight up it can create a vortex (like a bathtub drain) and you will hear it sucking and see it injecting bubbles into your sump. It needs to to be low enough to pull clear water. Another trick is to use a capped tee and a street ell just like a durso but without the hole in the top of the tee for injecting air. Mine just faces straight up and it works fine. It is really low though. The emergency should be just as high as the water in your weir so if the water starts rising it will start pouring down the emergency.

As for the return. I have two external pumps and run 1200 gallons/hour through two 1" pipes over the back. I do have two overflows though (one siphon and one emergency in each). You are constrained by one. Two are safer but you should be OK. A 1" pipe can handle 1200 gallons per hour with a wide open siphon.

That loc-line is not water tight. It will leak back into your sump. I am worried like playa that your sump will not hold all that water. I would re-think your return and figure out a way to keep it higher up or redesign the sump so it can hold the water. Use the volume calculator or the formula V = L x W x D x 0.00433 to calculate how much water 4" is on your tank.

[LennyD4]

Thanks for the input hillscp. Do you have pictures of your system? I know what you are saying but I am just unclear about how high you put your pipes. I think that I will just run the return over the top of the tank to avoid any hastle with failures. I just have to figure out if I want to use PVC pipe for the return or just braided nylon.

My plans for the standpipes were to put one halfway up the tank and one about an inch below the actually teeth of the overflow. Then I was going to adjust the water height with the gate valve beneath the lower standpipe so that the water was 3/4 way up the overflow box thus sucking in clear water.

[hillscp]

The hight of the siphon tube all depends on how much flow you have. The more water the faster it will be moving through the top of the pipe. This means it needs to be lower so it doesn't suck air. If I were you I would start with an unglued pipe and experiment. Start about 2 inches down from the edge of the weir teeth.

Here are some pictures.

<b>Picture 1:</b> The sump is an old acrylic 55 gal tank I bought on craigs list. It is divided into three sections. Water enters in the left chamber where the skimmer sits. The center chamber is the return section and the right is a refugium. A rio pumps water over the refugium divider and it pours back out through teeth. there are two external pumps that take water from the center section and feed it up over the back of the tank.

<b>Picture 2:</b> This is just a picture of the return lines coming up over the back. I run about 1200 gal/hr through there.

<b>Picture 3:</b> This is the siphon drain and emergency on the right side of the tank. I used the 1 inch for the siphon and the 3/4 for the emergency. The emergency from the right side feeds into the fuge and the siphon goes all the way to the left section using two elbows and a long run of 1" pipe. Of note; this side does not drain as fast as the left side.

<b>Picture 4:</b> This is the left side siphon drain and emergency. Pretty straight forward. again, I used the 1 inch for the siphon and the 3/4 for the emergency.

<b>Picture 5:</b> This is a picture of the back of the left chamber. Pipes from left to right - Righ side siphon - Left side siphon - Left side emergency.

<b>Notes:</b> I do not have a stand pipe for the siphons. I have a screen at the bottom of the weirs to keep critters out. I realize that if there were a double fault (pumps fail and weirs leaks) that the contents of my aquarium would end up on the floor. No air enters the siphon thats for sure <img src="images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" />. I would recommend a stand pipe. How high? That depends on how much water is has to handle.

My sump holds all the water coming out when the pumps are turned off. This is important!

I have a controller with a float switch that turns off the skimmer when the level rises above the divider plate. That keeps the skimmer from overflowing should a pump fail.

I like to adjust the siphon valves so just a little water is coming through the emergencies. This adjustment is "set it and forget it". The only time I have ever had to mess with it is when one of my chromis decided to take a ride through the siphon and clogged up one of my return pumps.

The ends of the siphon lines are about two inches under water. No bubbles come out, just clear water.

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[LennyD4]

Wow awesome that helps a lot. I see how you did the returns but what does it look like on the inside of the tank? What connections are in there?

[hillscp]

Here is an old picture of the front of the aquarium. They are just 45 degree elbows. They are not glued in so I can point them. If you don't like the stark white you could always paint them black. They are now covered with corraline algae and are hardly noticable.


http://chicowoodnut.home.comcast.net/~chicowoodnut/aquarium/images/IMG_0825_small.JPG

[LennyD4]

Ah i see now. I think i will just do that so i dont haveto worry about drilling or my tank draining. Did you drill a small hole in the return below the water level?

[hillscp]

Here is what they look like now. (sorry it's so blue. I can never get the white balance right)

[hillscp]

Did you drill a small hole in the return below the water level?

Yup. I clean them out as part of my weekly maintenance.

[LennyD4]

Ah ok sweet thanks for all yhe input. Youve saved me a lot of trouble

[hillscp]

No problem. Show us pics when you get it running.

[LennyD4]

I will. May not be for awhile now. I didn't mention that this is a tank transfer lol. I already have a 65g up and running but its not drilled or anything so I am buying this new tank and adding the sump. Its going to be hectic transferring all my livestock and keeping them overnight =X