HELP mass SPS death.

[Zombie Reef]

I figure I have used up all my knowledge and my brain is starting to hurt, :headwallblue: so I need some help. I am going to give as much information as I can so this is a long post. Sorry about that...

I have had Acroporas for years. LARGE colonies and they are all dead or dying.
I have recently set up a 250 gallon reef with basement fish room with another 250 to 300 gallons of water volume.

I use brightwell aquatics NeoMarine salt.

For filtration I have EcoSystem mud in a 30 long refugium.
For a skimmer I have an ASM G3 in a Rubber Maid stock tank.
I have Cryptic zone filtration in a 70 gallon sump.
A coral grow out in a 60 gallon Deep Blue Aquarium Frag Tank. w 1 koralia 4
The entire system is ran off a 6000 gph pump
The display tank has a sea swirl connected to a 1200 gph closed loop
Two Vortech MP 40s on reef crest random mode.
Two Hydor Koralia 4 1200 gph pumps.

For lighting

Frag tank 2 Blue Moon Aquatics P 30s
For 250 gallon display tank, 3 Reefbirte XHOs and two 400 watt halides.
One reefbrite standard output on a 40 gallon reef in the basement fish room.

For calcium I use Kalkwasser.

I run a 3 gpd dosing pump and use it for all top off.
The system has been set up for two months at this time.

I lost almost all my Montiporas and most of my Acroporas, they went down hill a week after the move.

I have red bugs and have eliminated them with Interceptor.
I have had Red bugs for at least 8 years but they weren't doing any significant damage and the colonies were growing like crazy with nice color.
I never wanted to do anything about it until the loss of SPS, not just Acroporas but all SPS corals after the move. Once the corals started dwindling the Red Bugs had to move to the remaining colonies and the numbers on those corals were out of proportion and causing too much damage to the colony so I had to use the treatment. there are no more bugs but the colonies continue to die.

I did have a dip in KH, it went down to 6 but went back up to 8-9 in the first few days of the new system. The corals are hanging on but it doesn't look good...

All LPS corals are fine.

PH 8.4
Kh 9
ammonia 0
nitrate 0
nitrite 0
PO4 0
CA 400

[metalmulisha]

Your alk swing is the problem. 6 to 8-9 in a few days atleast to me is a fast swing.

[Zombie Reef]

One time? It's been stable since then and the Acros keep their color until the skin just falls off. the coral look fine for weeks then they die. The swing happened over six weeks ago...

Does it take that long to lose everything? I have had swings before in other new systems in the past and never lost any corals. Are the remaining Acroporas doomed?

[toothman]

where in pa do are you from

[Zombie Reef]

Bucks County

[Zombie Reef]

It is only my older colonies that are dying, newer colonies look better but I have one older tabling acro that is unaffected and looks fine. I have one old tabling acro that is RTNing and I don't think it is going to make it. New small frags look good. Frags in my frag tank look perfect one day and dead the next just skeleton remains.

I switched salt brands for the new system because I started using it for water changes in my old system just before the move. I don't know if the 100% salt change could have done it.

It looks like I will be starting over if some of the corals don't recover soon.
Some are hanging on longer then others.

[prop-frags]

Exactly what parts of your new setup are new? Did you move everything from an old system, or did you move the tank you have now? As painful as it may be, can you show a before and after picture(s)?

[Zombie Reef]

I set up the entire new system in my new house. I sold my old system after moving the reef and fish to the new house. These are new pictures.
I have old Pictures in storage but not with me.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6087&pictureid=41816

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6087&pictureid=41818

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6087&pictureid=41817

[Boa1277]

Have you tested for copper or possible brass leaching from somewhere

[Zombie Reef]

I keep thinking that but every time I go to the store to buy a kit, I am assured it's not the problem because all my other corals are fine. I have so much water volume it would have to be a lot of copper.

[Boa1277]

I had a similar problem with my 180 total water volume and some of my stuff was doing ok and alot was dying my chalices all made it but my SPS all bleached and eventually died with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 the dead giveaway for me was all my snails and inverts kicked off so I knew I had a copper issue. Turns out I had some brass fittings on a replacement pump that I did not realize or catch and boy did I ever feel stupid. Good luck I hope you find your problem it is a miserable feeling when this happens, but it is very relieving when you figure out what the problem is!

[reef kid96]

what about magnesium?

[sabbath]

Do you use kents carbon? I hear that their carbon has had a bad batch with toxic levels of copper.

Sent from mobile

[reefinder]

Sounds like new tank syndrome. You probably had a large overnight cycle that you could not test for. It stressed out a lot a couple of larger colonies wich affected other colonies. A 2 month old tank is way to new to support a full reef system. It cycles multiple times over a years period. I'm sorry this happened, frag the larger colonies before its too late did the healthy frags in iodine mix for ten minutes and glue the dead areas.

[reefinder]

Dip the healthy frags, my bad

[Zombie Reef]

If I frag them now It will kill them. I have tried on a few pieces and just handling them makes them die overnight.

[Zombie Reef]

I think I may wait it out and try a new frag in the system to see if it is the system or just from stress. If it is stress related the new frag should be fine. I just hate watching this happen to more then a decade of growth.

[RichardinMa]

Sounds like new tank syndrome. You probably had a large overnight cycle that you could not test for. It stressed out a lot a couple of larger colonies wich affected other colonies. A 2 month old tank is way to new to support a full reef system. It cycles multiple times over a years period. I'm sorry this happened, frag the larger colonies before its too late did the healthy frags in iodine mix for ten minutes and glue the dead areas.

There is no such thing as an "overnight cycle", especially a large one. Cycles happen for very definite reasons and are a biological response to the presence of certain compounds in the water and follow predictable patterns. Tanks should not cycle several times in the first year. Ammonia spikes occur when something starts producing ammonia faster than it can be consumed by the existing bacterial colonies. It is not possible to have ammonia spike to deadly levels one night and be undetectable either the day before or after the occurance. Bacterial consumption/population simply does not work that way.

Regarding the deaths of the SPS, it will be very difficult to determine what exactly caused this since virtually everything changed when you moved them from one system to another. It is not that your current conditions are poor, just that they are likely different enough that your older colonies are not acclimating well. The fact that those are the ones that you are having the most problems with points toward this as well. The alk fluctuation may be related, maybe not. It at least likely added stress on already stressed animals. Alk swings have not had the same disasterous effects on my acros although my Seriatopora are the first to react badly if it drops too quickly.

Normally, fragging would be the best course of action and I would still suggest it. Unless you are actually seeing them live otherwise, I suspect that the frags that die would not survive if left as part of the parent colony anyway. In any case, I hope that things stabilize soon and the deaths stop.

[tripdad]

What did you use for the water supply, RO/DI or tap water, I did not see it mentioned. You say you moved to a new house, did you switch to/from well to city water or vice versa? Did tou test raw water, The freshly made up salt water? You say you also changed salt mix for the entire tank instead of just make up/water changes, did you test this for params compared to what you were using? There can be big differences in salt mixes, I have not used yours so cannot comment on it. Perhaps you have some old salt left and can compare?I am not an "expert" so I look at the basics first instead of assuming anything. Just as a side note I have a very small water volume so swings happen quickly if I am not dilligent. I have not had the kind of severe reactions you are experiencing so while not good, I dont think the alk swing was the cause Good luck.

[reefinder]

No offence Richard, but do you have any proof to back up your last statements. I doubt it, because all you can do is quote other reefers and there experiences. I have been doing this a long time and have seen tanks go through defirent algae cycles and conditions in the first years. You bodly say it does not happen and point blank you are WRONG. Happy reefing

[Zombie Reef]

I have noticed that the die off is slowing and I may frag some of the remaining ones if the tissue loss continues to move up. If I see that they are depositing new calcium and starting to grow again, I will leave them right where they are. If I frag them I would have to put them in my grow out under completely new lighting and flow conditions. It will be a double whammy.

I have had the rock that is in this system for over 15 years and it was kept under water for the entire move. I also tested the water every three days for the first two weeks and the water tested fine every time. I think your right and it was the change that did it.

I am using an RO unit with an add on DI unit and I am using the same source water. I am in the same town.

[RichardinMa]

No offence Richard, but do you have any proof to back up your last statements. I doubt it, because all you can do is quote other reefers and there experiences. I have been doing this a long time and have seen tanks go through defirent algae cycles and conditions in the first years. You bodly say it does not happen and point blank you are WRONG. Happy reefing

I am not sure how you would like me to present proof of this when it is something that happens in our aquaria, not on paper. If you are looking for data on the biological processes that are involved in a cycle, that data is available all over the net. I will, however, provide a short excerpt here that explains why an "overnight cycle" is impossible:

"Nitrifying bacteria have long generation times due to the low energy yield from their oxidation reactions. Since little energy is produced from these reactions they have evolved to become extremely efficient at converting ammonia and nitrite. Scientific studies have shown that Nitrosomonas bacterium are so efficient that a single cell can convert ammonia at a rate that would require up to one million heterotrophs to accomplish. Most of their energy production (80%) is devoted to fixing CO2 via the Calvin cycle and little energy remains for growth and reproduction. As a consequence, they have a very slow reproductive rate.

Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."

When a tank is showing non-detectable levels of ammonia and nitrite it is because the populations of nitrifying bacteria are at an equillibrium with the current output of ammonia into the system. In order to have a deadly spike of ammonia you first need a source, i.e. dead fish, heavy, heavy overfeeding or a loss of nitrifying bacteria. For sake of argument, even though it would be very, very improbable, we will say that when he tested the water on the morning before the "spike" it was at zero and then by that night it shot up to 1 or 2ppm. Let's also say, for example, that the bacteria were multiplying at the optimal rate to try to meet the food source. It would still take at least 7 hours for them to double in numbers and the increase of ammonia concentration is far greater than double. Even still, we will pretend that the Nitrosomonas have converted all of the ammonia overnight. You are still left with the Nitrobacter having to pick up on the presence of nitrite and catch up with those rising levels. At the very least, that would be detectable on tests. Here is a link for the above information:

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

I have also been maintaining aquaria, both fresh and marine, since the mid eighties so am not a newcomer either. I do not simply parrot what others say on this forum as sometimes they are simply wrong or guessing themselves. If your aquaria take a full year to establish a healthy bacterial load and have multiple cycles during that time period then there is something not quite right. Detectable waste levels occur when excessive waste is put into the system or the mechanisms to remove it are debilitated. Both of those things should be fairly easy to determine the source of and control. Having a full understanding of the biological processes that exist in our tanks makes it much easier to troubleshoot issues without error. Happy reefing.

[RichardinMa]

I have noticed that the die off is slowing and I may frag some of the remaining ones if the tissue loss continues to move up. If I see that they are depositing new calcium and starting to grow again, I will leave them right where they are. If I frag them I would have to put them in my grow out under completely new lighting and flow conditions. It will be a double whammy.

I have had the rock that is in this system for over 15 years and it was kept under water for the entire move. I also tested the water every three days for the first two weeks and the water tested fine every time. I think your right and it was the change that did it.

I am using an RO unit with an add on DI unit and I am using the same source water. I am in the same town.

Good luck and I hope things are on the upswing!

[cromedogg33]

I did have a dip in KH, it went down to 6 but went back up to 8-9 in the first few days of the new system. The corals are hanging on but it doesn't look good...

That's the beginning and the end of the story if you ask me.

[Zombie Reef]

A new frag I had in the system is doing fine so far and The color of my remaining Acroporas are brighter. I think the worst is over with.
I will buy a new Acro frag soon to see how that does.

What is the best dip for SPS that will help prevent Red Bugs in the future? I have a lot of interceptor and can get more if needed. Is there something better to use as a dip?

[cromedogg33]

I for one don't think a dip will prevent all red bugs, quaratining and dipping will ensure that :D

Without quarantining you will always risk pests.

[Veosk]

Possible new tank issue. I had a tank up for 5 years and it rocked, setup the new one and took a couple of months to work out some problems and balance the tank...in the process lost some of my lps sps

[DaveJ]

Nothing definitive, but ill add to the alk drop chorus. Sometimes our corals look great and actually do well, but one thing will set off a chain reaction. In a large colony a change of flow, change of water conditions, add in an alk swing and I could expect something bad to happen.

I'm sorry you lost such large and lovely colonies.

[A.VOID]

How much of your old water did you use with the new setup?

I've dipped to 6 before for a couple days and not seen die off. I don't think that's the issue.

[JAustin]

It sounds like a culmination of events. The move, mass amounts of new water, change in ALK and maybe some other params, depth of corals and new lighting exposures, being taken out of the water for a move, ect.

I've had ALK go from 9-12 in 2.5 days. Everything was fine and stable. If you add too many changes in temp, alk, lighting, if you switch from country to rock and roll, your going to have issues with color or RTN/STN.

[t4zalews]

Ive found in my experience that alk swings that go higher the SPS tend to deal with it a lot better than alk swings that are low. Ex: 9 to 11 little change, 9 to 6 tissue recession. Usually ive noticed SPS tissue problems are associated with Alk. Other factors may have contributed to the deaths, I do recommend removing and/or fragging dying SPS as for some reason they do tend to affect the rest of the tank.

My .02

[RichardinMa]

It sounds like a culmination of events. The move, mass amounts of new water, change in ALK and maybe some other params, depth of corals and new lighting exposures, being taken out of the water for a move, ect.

I've had ALK go from 9-12 in 2.5 days. Everything was fine and stable. If you add too many changes in temp, alk, lighting, if you switch from country to rock and roll, your going to have issues with color or RTN/STN.

+1

I agree with this likely being a combination of changes/stressors that might have been uneventful if they happened indivivdually but the combination proved too much. I would also add that, generally speaking, I have found alk jumps to be less problematic than alk drops, although neither of which bothered my acros as much as other sps.

[GIT RITE]

What is the best dip for SPS that will help prevent Red Bugs in the future? I have a lot of interceptor and can get more if needed. Is there something better to use as a dip?[/QUOTE



The Bayer Advance Complete, it kills just about anything. But using a QT for a while is still a good idea.

[Zombie Reef]

My refractometer was off and my hydrometer was way off. The salinity was low at 1.021-1.022... I calibrated my refractometer at my old location to test the salinity of the old system and it was off when I set up the new system.

Hopefully I can save what's left.

[Amphiprion]

I am not sure how you would like me to present proof of this when it is something that happens in our aquaria, not on paper. If you are looking for data on the biological processes that are involved in a cycle, that data is available all over the net. I will, however, provide a short excerpt here that explains why an "overnight cycle" is impossible:

"Nitrifying bacteria have long generation times due to the low energy yield from their oxidation reactions. Since little energy is produced from these reactions they have evolved to become extremely efficient at converting ammonia and nitrite. Scientific studies have shown that Nitrosomonas bacterium are so efficient that a single cell can convert ammonia at a rate that would require up to one million heterotrophs to accomplish. Most of their energy production (80%) is devoted to fixing CO2 via the Calvin cycle and little energy remains for growth and reproduction. As a consequence, they have a very slow reproductive rate.

Nitrifying bacteria reproduce by binary division. Under optimal conditions, Nitrosomonas may double every 7 hours and Nitrobacter every 13 hours. More realistically, they will double every 15-20 hours. This is an extremely long time considering that heterotrophic bacteria can double in as short a time as 20 minutes. In the time that it takes a single Nitrosomonas cell to double in population, a single E. Coli bacterium would have produced a population exceeding 35 trillion cells."

When a tank is showing non-detectable levels of ammonia and nitrite it is because the populations of nitrifying bacteria are at an equillibrium with the current output of ammonia into the system. In order to have a deadly spike of ammonia you first need a source, i.e. dead fish, heavy, heavy overfeeding or a loss of nitrifying bacteria. For sake of argument, even though it would be very, very improbable, we will say that when he tested the water on the morning before the "spike" it was at zero and then by that night it shot up to 1 or 2ppm. Let's also say, for example, that the bacteria were multiplying at the optimal rate to try to meet the food source. It would still take at least 7 hours for them to double in numbers and the increase of ammonia concentration is far greater than double. Even still, we will pretend that the Nitrosomonas have converted all of the ammonia overnight. You are still left with the Nitrobacter having to pick up on the presence of nitrite and catch up with those rising levels. At the very least, that would be detectable on tests. Here is a link for the above information:

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

I have also been maintaining aquaria, both fresh and marine, since the mid eighties so am not a newcomer either. I do not simply parrot what others say on this forum as sometimes they are simply wrong or guessing themselves. If your aquaria take a full year to establish a healthy bacterial load and have multiple cycles during that time period then there is something not quite right. Detectable waste levels occur when excessive waste is put into the system or the mechanisms to remove it are debilitated. Both of those things should be fairly easy to determine the source of and control. Having a full understanding of the biological processes that exist in our tanks makes it much easier to troubleshoot issues without error. Happy reefing.

The references above are all true, but you are not taking into account other factors; namely that bacteria are not solely responsible for the uptake of unoxidized nitrogen compounds in reef aquaria. Algal uptake is significant, especially under heavy lighting regimes and even when the tank lights are off. That's not counting other photosynthetic organisms, either. Having a short, one-day spike is entirely possible if there are enough photosynthetic organisms present under the right conditions. I've done it on accident with ammonium-based fertilizer tabs and with a young, modest population of seagrasses.

[Sonnyg56]

I had my entire population of SPS bleach in a 24 hour period. A total tank crash. I still dont know what did it but I lost 5 year old colonies overnight

[PHILYD1]

i AM GOING THREW SAME THING RIGHT NOW ALL LEVELS ARE SPOT ON AND ONE BY ONE ALL MY SPS ARE RTN FROM BOTTOM UP CANT FIGURE IT OUT