View Full Version : Nitrate/Nitrite HIGH...help!
Delprincipe
04/21/2012, 04:08 PM
Hi all.... we are new and so is our tank! About 2 weeks old with live rock/sand from TBS
Our nitrate and nitrite levels are high now and I can see a visible difference in the rocks and sponges.
Can anyone please let us now a remedy?
disc1
04/21/2012, 04:33 PM
You're going through a part of the cycling process. Just watch it for a while and the nitrite should decline.
FWIW: Nitrite will cause a nitrate test to read high. So nitrate may not be as high as you think right now.
Delprincipe
04/21/2012, 04:40 PM
Thank you. Concerned for the cleaner critters in the tank and sponges/anemones/corals we do have.
Most people say the sponges will go but we'd like to keep as much as possible. We're doing a water change now to see how that helps.
Point ohh Eight
04/21/2012, 04:46 PM
Don't do a water change until the cycle process is complete
SKurj
04/21/2012, 04:46 PM
Its supposed to be high now at 2 weeks in, no live stock until those nitrites get to 0... Tank is cycling its normal, you just shouldn't put any fish/corals/cuc in until they come down.
Delprincipe
04/21/2012, 05:03 PM
Can't help but have those critters in there. We got all our rock and sand from TBS and the cleaners are all part of the package.
Considering they are there what are your suggestions now?
Glad to hear the high levels are normal. So they'll go down on their own?
Point ohh Eight
04/21/2012, 05:10 PM
Don't add any new livestock or coral. Let the nitrites and nitrates go down by themselves and don't do any more water changes
SKurj
04/21/2012, 05:10 PM
it will slow the cycle down, but to reduce the suffering of the livestock water changes are needed.
Delprincipe
04/21/2012, 05:27 PM
So if we went the "no water change way" then we'll just be adding water as the tank's water evaporates?
And if we continue with water changes, what % do you recommend?
SushiGirl
04/21/2012, 06:43 PM
Define "high" in numbers.
heckfire
04/21/2012, 07:24 PM
Thank you. Concerned for the cleaner critters in the tank and sponges/anemones/corals we do have.
Most people say the sponges will go but we'd like to keep as much as possible. We're doing a water change now to see how that helps.
your tank is 2 weeks old and you have it stocked with sponges/anemones/corals ................????
agruetz
04/21/2012, 08:19 PM
Define "high" in numbers.
This would be my first question as well.
Delprincipe
04/21/2012, 09:32 PM
This morning nitrite was 5.0 and nitrate were between 40-80. We did a 25% water change and the levels went down a bit to 2.0 and between 20-40.
Yes, we do have critters. They came with our package that we ordered through TBS. The 1st half of our package cycled no problem. The 2nd half is having a few issues but it's probably our doing since we felt it important to feed the critters. We have no fish and have not planned on having fish for quite some time. We are newbs but have been researching and planning and waiting a long time before we decided to finally build/fill or tank.
joelespinoza
04/21/2012, 11:16 PM
Make sure you have good flow, that will increase the change from nitrite to nitrate and increasing the disolved O2 will make respiration easier for your livestock, which is what high nitrates makes problematic.
I would suggest you stop feeding them and turn off any lights for 2-3 days at least. That should not cause a problems for critters who have been fed recently and it will help out considerably.
Delprincipe
04/21/2012, 11:29 PM
How do you determine good flow? We have 2 Koralia Nano pumps in the tank plus the HOB Reef Octopus.
We can easily turn the lights off. At this time we only have full lights on for 5 hr/day.
Are you on the side of water changes or no water changes?
meco65
04/22/2012, 04:48 AM
Call TBS and see what they say. JMO. You paid alot for there package they should help you.
Cloudburst2000
04/22/2012, 08:12 AM
Have you been doing consistent water changes??? Look on the TBS site. They tell you exactly how to handle their rocks. Everytime the ammonia reaches 1ppm (I think), you are supposed to do a water change. You should be attempting to keep the ammonia below 1ppm. Do water changes every time you see the ammonia go above 1ppm. Not doing the upkeep per TBS guidelines could cause alot of die-off in your tank.
I ordered from TBS not long ago and did water changes every time to ammonia went up. I had no problems. Some of your livestock (esp sponges) will likely die off over time. Sponges can be very hard to keep alive.
Randy Holmes-Farley
04/22/2012, 10:05 AM
I do not think those values are cause for concern. As long as ammonia is undetectable, you are OK. Nitrite and nitrate are not toxicity problems and as mentioned, the nitrate may be far lower than you think. :)
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 01:48 PM
Thank you all. I will definately be emailing Richard just to confirm with him his opinion.
@Cloudburst2000, how has everything been for you? We probably got a bit too ahead of ourselves when we started feeding our invertabrates... how long did you wait to supplement our tank with nutrients?
Our ammonia has not gone done to 0 yet but has not beem over 1ppm. Maybe we got overzealous there testing everything too. Like Meco65 said, we paid a lot and just wanted to make sure we were covering all our bases.
Randy Holmes-Farley
04/22/2012, 03:35 PM
What sort of creatures are present with detectable ammonia? Less than 1 ppm is still a concern. Even 0.2 ppm is a concern.
Bowels
04/22/2012, 03:46 PM
If I were you i would go get a little 10g tank and put the CUC and corals in there until your tank cycles...the cycle is a process that lets the tank recover from die off and gives needed bacteria time to propagate to a level that can sustain a healthy tank. adding any livestock before this is complete is asking for death :(
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 03:50 PM
We have blue legged hermits, 2 cucs, 1 brittle star, a starfish, decorator crab, 3 black spiny urchins, 1 pincushion urchin, arrow crab (?), snails, and hitchhikering minthax and porceline crabs.
Looks like we have 2 amenones, misc sponges, tunicates, and items we don't know yet.
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 03:52 PM
If I were you i would go get a little 10g tank and put the CUC and corals in there until your tank cycles...the cycle is a process that lets the tank recover from die off and gives needed bacteria time to propagate to a level that can sustain a healthy tank. adding any livestock before this is complete is asking for death :(
We have a 10 gallon that we are going to use as quarantine... do you recommend doing this withot any sand or rock?
Randy Holmes-Farley
04/22/2012, 04:10 PM
I'd probably add something like Amquel if it were me, rather than try to relocate everything. The QT won't be cycled either, I presume.
reef4life07
04/22/2012, 04:30 PM
Adding live stock while tank is cycling is just wrong, fish food alone would have started the process...
Bowels
04/22/2012, 04:40 PM
yes no sand or rock needed in QT, thats a lot of life to add to an un cycled tank. At least your gonna save em :) thats all that matters. You will find keeping a SW tank is much more complicated than a FW one. I did too when I first started lol. This forum is the best, there are always so many ppl with great ideas and experiences to help you out.
I would do a 2g or so water change every few days in the QT to export unwanted nutrients, and pick up some seaweed... I believe its like kori seaweed or something like that... without rocks and such to pick on you will want to put a piece in every week or so to keep the hermits and the urchins fed. :) your cycle should be over in a few weeks. also you will want some flow in the QT, a regular carbon filter should be plenty. Good luck
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 04:51 PM
yes no sand or rock needed in QT, thats a lot of life to add to an un cycled tank. At least your gonna save em :) thats all that matters. You will find keeping a SW tank is much more complicated than a FW one. I did too when I first started lol. This forum is the best, there are always so many ppl with great ideas and experiences to help you out.
I would do a 2g or so water change every few days in the QT to export unwanted nutrients, and pick up some seaweed... I believe its like kori seaweed or something like that... without rocks and such to pick on you will want to put a piece in every week or so to keep the hermits and the urchins fed. :) your cycle should be over in a few weeks. also you will want some flow in the QT, a regular carbon filter should be plenty. Good luck
Thanks for your supportive help :) It appears now we have copepods swimming around the tank. Is the fact that they are out and about a turn in a positive direction or would they have appeared regardlessly?
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 04:55 PM
Adding live stock while tank is cycling is just wrong, fish food alone would have started the process...
While I completely understand where you are coming from here we purchased a very successful product from TBS. I truly feel that we complicated the whole process by feeding during the tank's cycle so now we just need advise on how to backtrack our goof up. I have no problem owning up to our rookie mistakes but please provide us some advise. Trust me, we are already beating ourselves up about the dilemma we are in.
heckfire
04/22/2012, 06:53 PM
While I completely understand where you are coming from here we purchased a very successful product from TBS.
The only constant in this expensive hobby is patience,, remember TBS is in this to make money,You have some of the very advanced and difficult life forms in your tank...id say bring them back and let the tank really cycle
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 07:04 PM
The only constant in this expensive hobby is patience,, remember TBS is in this to make money,You have some of the very advanced and difficult life forms in your tank...id say bring them back and let the tank really cycle
That's not an option considering TBS is in Florida. While it might work if we'd bought everything at a LFS it won't work in this situation. We'll have to work through it.
meco65
04/22/2012, 07:28 PM
Wait Delprincipe Some of Them here do not understand the TBS process, all your rock is good Live Rock and should not have to much of a cycle, if you follow the TBS procedure. They sale lots of complete LR setups with great success. IMO slow down do the water changes TBS recommends, e-mail or call TBS if you need to but follow there advise.
freetareef
04/22/2012, 07:56 PM
wow, i can't believe nobody has suggested reading the stickies in the new to the hobby section.
hey dude,
read ALL the stickies in the new to the hobby section, Then you should read them 6 more times, because we remember 7% of what we read word for word, that way you will remember 49% of what you have read.
Delprincipe
04/22/2012, 10:45 PM
Thank you all for the helpful advice.
whodeydan76
04/22/2012, 11:39 PM
DelPrincipe...I am fairly new to the hobby of keeping a Sw tank as well (2mos 3 weeks). When i started my tank I was running blindly and listening to a partially unreliable source. I started with 90# of live rock in my 75 gal tank, mixed my instant ocean with tap water (w chlorine remover), and was running only a fluval canister filter.
I was not testing for the cycle until I had already put my first livestock in the tank (3 weeks). I added 60 snails, 30 red leg hermits and live sand from garf.org once I started testing for the cycle progress it was almost complete. I added 5 blue/green chromis and a red fiddler crab from a lfs at 5 weeks... they all survived.
I slowly found this website and started learning of my mistakes...boy did I feel stupid! Once I found out why tap water was bad...it was too late, brown diatom algae had already started and my snails worked on it but only did so much. That is when i added my first 2 powerheads and my Skimmer and started doing 10 gal a week water changes with ro Sw from my lfs. This really improved my water quality. At 6 weeks I added a established tomato clown and a rock with gsp on it...the fish was dead in abt 30 hours. I also added a store bought tomato clown and a diamond goby to the tank at the same time. The established clown killed my young one before it passed. The goby is still going strong...even tho he did cause a rock collapse at one point...until I learned that the rock needs to be set before the substrate was added...
Go super slow, read the stickies, ask a butt load of questions, don't EVER suggest you will flush a problematic fish, and don't get too attached to the livestock you have currently, you will be lucky if all of it doesn't die.... Wait at least 6 weeks before you try a hearty fish or 2.
I work at a pet store now and I've learned so much between a guy I met on craigslist by posting and the helpful folks on here...its unbelievable. Good luck to you fellow newbie. Stay with it...you will eventually get through the cycle;)
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 08:55 AM
Adding live stock while tank is cycling is just wrong, fish food alone would have started the process...
These are LIVE ROCKS and LIVE SAND he was using from TBS who aquaculture rock in the Pacific Ocean. TBS ships the first round of live rock via air and won't ship the second round of rock that contains all the organisms until the cycle of the first round is complete. Their instructions are very simple. Every time you see ammonia go over 1ppm, do a water change to bring numbers back under 1ppm. I only had to do two small water changes with my first shipment of rock. When I let Richard know that the cycle was complete, he air shipped the second round of rock that came with all the critters. The instructions were similar to the first round of rock. Do water changes when ammonia goes over 1ppm. I again only had to perform two small water changes. I believe the problem the original poster had was feeding the tank. The instructions specifically say not to feed until all cycling is complete. There is enough food on the rocks and in the sand to support any life in the tank. TBS is one of the premiere places to buy aquacultured live rock and has been in business for years and years and they have a stellar reputation. I'll take Richard's advice over yours...sorry.
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 09:00 AM
wow, i can't believe nobody has suggested reading the stickies in the new to the hobby section.
hey dude,
read ALL the stickies in the new to the hobby section, Then you should read them 6 more times, because we remember 7% of what we read word for word, that way you will remember 49% of what you have read.
And maybe you should be a little less condemning when you obviously don't grasp the entire situation. This is true live rock and live sand that Tampa Bay Saltwater has aquacultured in the Pacific Ocean. They ship all their rock overnight air submersed in water so there is very little die-off. I showed very little ammonia with my two shipments (they ship in two parts) and only had to do a couple small water changes. The OP is not using base rock that needs to come alive. It is already alive. He was using live rock and live sand. TBS is very specific with their instructions and I had nothing but success by following their instructions.
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 09:02 AM
While I completely understand where you are coming from here we purchased a very successful product from TBS. I truly feel that we complicated the whole process by feeding during the tank's cycle so now we just need advise on how to backtrack our goof up. I have no problem owning up to our rookie mistakes but please provide us some advise. Trust me, we are already beating ourselves up about the dilemma we are in.
I suggest emailing Richard and asking him what to do. He answers emails promptly. I think you should leave the live stock in the tank and just do the needed water changes. As long as you keep the ammonia below 1ppm like TBS suggests, you should be okay. But I would verify with Richard since you did start feeding before you were supposed to.
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 09:10 AM
And I still don't feed much. I have some algae in the tank and the CUC that TBS sent are chowing on that right now. You really don't need to feed too much. There is food on the rocks/sand still that they can eat so definitely don't overfeed as it will just lead to algae problems. And if you want to keep the sponges alive and well, I would look into ordering some phytoplankton. They are filter feeders and feed from the water column. Phytoplankton is the one thing I have been feeding regularly. Sponges still looking okay after a few weeks. I just ordered my first fish. It should be here tomorrow and will go into quarantine for about six weeks. I haven't gotten any coral yet as I have been out of town alot in the last few weeks. I'm planning on snagging some frags from my brother-in-law's tank. He owes me since I gave him practically all his corals as frags that have now grown out. And there is a frag swap coming up where I plan to spend a bit of moolah...probably on acans mostly. I love acans :)
f3honda4me
04/23/2012, 10:08 AM
When you ship liverock or live sand "overnight", there is die off, which causes a cycle. That cycle needs to be completed before you add coral or CUC.
Any ammonia/nitrite means your tank is cycling and you should not be having coral/CUC in your tank. I don't care where you buy it from or what their "process" is, that's just the basics of cycling a new tank.
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 10:40 AM
When you ship liverock or live sand "overnight", there is die off, which causes a cycle. That cycle needs to be completed before you add coral or CUC.
Any ammonia/nitrite means your tank is cycling and you should not be having coral/CUC in your tank. I don't care where you buy it from or what their "process" is, that's just the basics of cycling a new tank.
Well, since I and tons of other aquarists have had amazing results with TBS rock by using their instructions, then I will stick with that. There is a reason why TBS has such a stellar reputation. And they have very little die-off since they ship all their rock and sand submersed in water...not just wrapped in moist towels.
Delprincipe
04/23/2012, 12:47 PM
When you ship liverock or live sand "overnight", there is die off, which causes a cycle. That cycle needs to be completed before you add coral or CUC.
TBS sends their product via the airlines. He puts it on a plane and you pick it up from the airport same day. Pending any issues from the airlines themselves overnight is not an option.
Again, from the research I have done I do see where you are coming from BUT I don't think you not are grasping the set up we have. Thank you for your imput. For your reassurance, we do not plan on adding any additional livestock for quite some time.
Delprincipe
04/23/2012, 12:55 PM
And maybe you should be a little less condemning when you obviously don't grasp the entire situation. This is true live rock and live sand that Tampa Bay Saltwater has aquacultured in the Pacific Ocean. They ship all their rock overnight air submersed in water so there is very little die-off. I showed very little ammonia with my two shipments (they ship in two parts) and only had to do a couple small water changes. The OP is not using base rock that needs to come alive. It is already alive. He was using live rock and live sand. TBS is very specific with their instructions and I had nothing but success by following their instructions.
Thank you Cloudburst :)
It is sometimes hard to post and learn. I feel as though we have read and read and still continue to read... it's hard not to get lost in other posts and stickies. We did read other posts prior to posting our own and will continue to read others' posts in addition to the contributions to this one.
We have trust in the TBS product and will continue to support it and stick with that program.
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 01:29 PM
Thank you Cloudburst :)
It is sometimes hard to post and learn. I feel as though we have read and read and still continue to read... it's hard not to get lost in other posts and stickies. We did read other posts prior to posting our own and will continue to read others' posts in addition to the contributions to this one.
We have trust in the TBS product and will continue to support it and stick with that program.
Welcome :) And when I do my larger tank, I plan on starting with base rock and then seeding with TBS live rock. I can't afford to do the entire tank in TBS live rock like I was able to do with my nano tank. The airline fees are expensive enough :lol: Too bad I don't live close by in Florida and do the free pick-up option :)
I also didn't end up with a mantis like I was hoping...at least, I don't think. My tank does click at me, but I am fairly sure it's a pistol shrimp not a mantis. I plan on ordering a mantis from him since I didn't receive one with my rock.
Delprincipe
04/23/2012, 02:54 PM
I also didn't end up with a mantis like I was hoping...at least, I don't think. My tank does click at me, but I am fairly sure it's a pistol shrimp not a mantis. I plan on ordering a mantis from him since I didn't receive one with my rock.
LOL, wish you live closer, you could have had ours. We've had at least 10 pistols so far and the tank is still clicking :headwally: Saw one last night and couldn't get to him.
Did a 10 gallon water change this morning per Richard's emailed suggestion... crossing our fingers now.
Cloudburst2000
04/23/2012, 02:58 PM
LOL, wish you live closer, you could have had ours. We've had at least 10 pistols so far and the tank is still clicking :headwally: Saw one last night and couldn't get to him.
Did a 10 gallon water change this morning per Richard's emailed suggestion... crossing our fingers now.
I don't mind the pistol shrimp though he sure is loud. I can hear him clicking all the way down the hall. You got a mantis shrimp in your rock? No fair! I was really wanting one to do a dedicated mantis tank. I'll just have to buy one from Richard instead.
Delprincipe
04/23/2012, 04:39 PM
Does anyone have any reef book recommendations?
SKurj
04/23/2012, 04:43 PM
I am noob, but I have bought a few books recently:
Aquarium Corals: Selection Husbandry and Natural History by Eric Borneman
The Reef Aquarium, Volume Three: Science, Art, and Technology
Those 2 I think may cover most reef stuff.. and then some... especially the second
Delprincipe
04/23/2012, 05:29 PM
Thanks Skurj, we'll check those out.
Delprincipe
04/23/2012, 05:42 PM
I do not think those values are cause for concern. As long as ammonia is undetectable, you are OK. Nitrite and nitrate are not toxicity problems and as mentioned, the nitrate may be far lower than you think. :)
Randy, we were reading your Reef Alchemy article about low pH. Can you please help us understand pH in the cycle better? We are having quite a bit of sponge die off so I understand that to be a contributing factor in the readings.
We are doing water changes per TBS and have been able to lower the nitrite to 1.0ppm. The nitrate is still reading high at 40ppm. Again, we are still in the midst of the cycle process. Would you still agree with your previous comment that the nitrates may be lower than our test is indicating? If so, how do you recommend we get an accurate reading? Would an LFS be able to provide us more accurate params?
SKurj
04/23/2012, 08:23 PM
I believe as long as you have nitrites your nitrate reading maybe suspect.
Randy Holmes-Farley
04/24/2012, 05:10 AM
Randy, we were reading your Reef Alchemy article about low pH. Can you please help us understand pH in the cycle better? We are having quite a bit of sponge die off so I understand that to be a contributing factor in the readings.
We are doing water changes per TBS and have been able to lower the nitrite to 1.0ppm. The nitrate is still reading high at 40ppm. Again, we are still in the midst of the cycle process. Would you still agree with your previous comment that the nitrates may be lower than our test is indicating? If so, how do you recommend we get an accurate reading? Would an LFS be able to provide us more accurate params?
Some nitrate kits will read a little nitrite as a lot of nitrate. So you really need to wait until nitrite is gone to get a nitrate reading.
There are a number of reasons why pH may be lower during cycling and curing live rock than later. These include reduction in carbonate alkalinity due to acid production, and unusually high CO2 release from decaying tissues. Boosting alk with limewater or carbonate will help. During this time, organic acids may be unusually high, making the actual carbonate alkalinity substantially lower than a total alk test kit will read.
Delprincipe
04/24/2012, 11:00 AM
Some nitrate kits will read a little nitrite as a lot of nitrate. So you really need to wait until nitrite is gone to get a nitrate reading.
There are a number of reasons why pH may be lower during cycling and curing live rock than later. These include reduction in carbonate alkalinity due to acid production, and unusually high CO2 release from decaying tissues. Boosting alk with limewater or carbonate will help. During this time, organic acids may be unusually high, making the actual carbonate alkalinity substantially lower than a total alk test kit will read.
Thank you Randy. Our nitrate is gradually decreasing with the water changes so hopefully we'll be able to get that better reading on the nitrate.
Our pH was going down, not into a bad level yet. Last evening it was a 8.0. We just wanted to check the possiblilties of solutions if it continued to decline. We tried the simplest of your article's suggestions last night and opened the windows to try to help our home have a better exchange of fresh air. Being in AZ, and our temps already in the 100s, we had to wait till the sun went down.
Thanks again!
Randy Holmes-Farley
04/24/2012, 12:54 PM
FWIW, pH 8.0 is just fine. :)
Delprincipe
04/25/2012, 03:13 PM
FWIW, pH 8.0 is just fine. :)
We knew we were in an okay range there, it had simply decreased from the day before.
Everything seems to be in an okay range today. Wish the ammonia would go down a bit more to 0 but it has held steady at 0.25ppm for the past 2 days.
The nitrates are still reading at 80ppm. TBS suggested we test our fill water and it gave a reading of 5.0ppm. Asked if they recommend a solution to treat the water with that would be safe for the product we purchased.
Randy Holmes-Farley
04/25/2012, 05:03 PM
What sort of fill water are we talking about? Tap water?
Delprincipe
04/25/2012, 05:13 PM
What sort of fill water are we talking about? Tap water?
Not tap, we're getting RO/DI from outside the grocery store. Wondering if we should try a different vendor now that that test showed positive.
f3honda4me
04/25/2012, 06:41 PM
Water you buy at a grocery store isn't going to be true RODI that you would get from an in home RODI system.
sleepydoc
04/25/2012, 06:44 PM
Might not be a bad idea. If you're planning on being in the hobby a while, a lot of people here (myself included) will recommend you get your own RO/DI system. You can get a decent setup from Bulk Reef Supply and other places for $150-200. It won't take too long to pay for itself, and the convenience alone makes it worth it.
Delprincipe
04/26/2012, 02:15 AM
Realized too that we took that reading from the saltwater we have set up for water changes. Now need to check how high it's coming in as freshwater... we're using Reef Crystal so I hope that's not packing the nitrates in. Guess we'll find out once we compare the fresh to salt readings.
driver3490
05/01/2012, 05:28 AM
Just be very light with food on a cycled tank every other day is more than enough, remember this rock and systrem creates food as well.
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