A few general questions

[Mstark11]

Ok, so I have just a few questions I'm going to ask for now (I have a whole ton more but I don't want to post all of them all at once.) because for the next few months the stand, and the tank with maybe a few pieces of live rock are all I'm going to be dealing with.

First off I was wondering where you get your tank supplies around Alamo? And I just mean where do you buy the glass for the tank, or the wood for stand? Can you get it at Home Depot?

Is there an appropriate sized height for the stand? I don't want to make it too tall and have it tip over.

For a 55 gal what kind of RO/DI system should I use? And at 55 gal. is an RO system going to make a noticeable difference for 180$ ?

How long can you let a tank cycle? With live sand/rock? Because this hobby is looking expensive, I can only do a few parts at a time, so I was wondering how long you can let an empty tank cycle, and if I can let live sand and rock sit in an empty tank, cycling for more than a month, or if that would just kill the hitch hikers?

And then my last question for now, I was wondering if anyone has a preferred retailer for livestock and tank accessories? I'd read in this forum that around here the livestock is less than preferable.

Thanks in advance! (:

-Melissa

[mitchellmoto]

accessories

[mitchellmoto]

Sorry premature post.
Ha ha

[mitchellmoto]

I hope others will add to my suggestions but here are mine.
Wood you can get at home depot or Lowe's. Anywhere you buy wood. As far as glass are you planning on building your tank? I would advise against it if that is where you are thinking. For the size you are planning building a tank won't save you much and will be risky and time consuming. I would only build one if you are looking for something unusual or custom. I'm pretty sure Ray at fish and Phipps has some used 55 for sale. Also check for local ads to purchase a used tank. Stelas will be priced very high.

For stand height, most premade stands are on the short side. I'm sure there will be a point where it would be unstable but it is up to you how high you want to build it.

Yes RO/DI is a must for a reef tank. You should at least use a RO. Local water has upwards of 650ppm after my ro/di my water is at 0-2ppm and i change all my filter once it reaches 20-30ppm. For the time being you can use water from the water mills around town. They typically have 30-50ppm but after months of lugging water around you will want the RO in your house. bulk reef supply dot com has nice units for reasonable prices. Or use the local water mill and keep an eye out for a used unit. You probably won't need more than a 75gpd. There are used ones on this site all the time if you keep an watchful eye and are patient. You of course can not see the for sale forums until you have 90days and 50 posts. After that the for sale section will open up for you and you can find some great deals here. Just be careful who you send money too it is still an electronic transaction and you want to protect yourself.

For cycling, live rock and live sand. Don't waste you money buying all live. Purchase base rock or dried rock and dried sand. Then buy one bag of live sand to go on top of the dried sand and build you rock structure with the dried rock and add one or two pieces of live rock to put on top of your structure. If your tank is setup right after 6 months you won't be able to tell which was which. For the actual cycling process you can find several ways on the site. Basically you can cycle with fish, frozen shrimp or fish food. A month is a minimum for the tank to cycle. I suggest to build everything slowly and give you tank time to mature.

As far as live stock I would chose ray at fish and Phipps over stelas any day. Rays tanks are cleaner and the livestock will be in better shape because of that reason. There is nowhere local to by accessories. If you want a skimmer of lighting system you will have to order online. There are several stores in el Paso but I won't recommend any as I have found pests in most of the tanks down there so I you buy just be careful of that you are getting.

Now I could go on for hours but there is a good start, hope it helps. I also hope other members will chime in as well.

Later
Mitch

[Mstark11]

That's definitely good to know that fish n Phipps has aquariums. I was reading about them and for whatever reason got it in my head that they were a contractor, and didn't actually sell individual items to the public.

I've been looking around on craigslist and hollomanyardsales for a few days now and I'm not really sure what a good price for just the tank would really be. I'm looking at petco and there's a tank and hood for 150, so I would assume a used one would be less than that.

As for base or dried rock, can you grow coral on that? I really don't have any idea what the difference is between live and dried rock. I've seen a few videos on cycling, and I don't have really any intention of putting anything alive in it for 2-3 months.

Also, do you know where fish n' Phipps is located? I've tried to look it up but there's 3 some-ott addresses for it.

[mitchellmoto]

Fish and Phipps really isn't a store. He does tank maintenance. That is why I said he is hard to reach, but if you get a hold of him he usually has no problem you coming out to get some fish. I just know his tanks are in better shape than Stelas. On price of a used tank it is hard to say, for example an Oceanic is a better brand than a petco or walmart tank and will of course cost more. Wlamart has the same deal as Petco with an aquarium set up for roughly $150-160. Problem is the lighted hood will be useless and so will the filters or any other accessories that come with the tank.

I looked on Holloman yard sales and a month ago there was a 55 with cover for 50 bucks. Last time I was at rays he had two 55gal with stand for around $100. They were extremely dirty and needed a coat of paint on the stand but they were your basic 55 with pine stand. building a stand won't really be any cheaper but you can make it look nicer. The club member babybrown might be able to help or I wouldn't mind helping either. You can use wood trim to make it as fancy as you want. I like cleaner less obvious stands because I want all attention on the tank. I also like more modern styles but that is completely a personal decision.

Base rock is not living, it is dried out calcium based rock, usually dead coral mined out of the ground. It is far cheaper than live rock. but as stated if you purchase just one or two premium pieces of live rock it will spread and cultivate the dead rock. You won't ever be able to tell the difference.

2-3 month with nothing living probably won't work unless you are feeding the tank with fish food or frozen shrimp. You have to have something for the bacteria to feed on. In a setup tank it would be the fish waste and left over food. Something has to be breaking down to feed the bacteria and allow it to grow. This is also why you should add fish slowly. Your tank needs time to react to the extra fish product and allow your bacteria population to grow before adding more fish. If you dump too many fish at once you bacteria can't handle it all and your levels of ammonia, nitrate and phosphate will rise and kill all your fish. This will spike your levels more and you can cause your levels see saw as you add fish again they die spike your levels then they are gone levels go down, you add too many fish again and so on and so on. It can really cause a problem that will last for a while. This is where most get tired of it and leave the hobby.
So I would add a small fish after a few weeks or just feed your tank for a couple month. It is up to you.

Fish and Phipps
70 Mesa Verde Ranch Rd
Alamogordo
(575) 437-4080
Certainly don't go out there with out calling first. He can order what you want if he doesn't have it.

So I'll call it quits for now or i won't stop.

Later
Mitch

[Mstark11]

Ok now I'm confused again, haha. (Dont worry this happens every other hour in learning about this hobby.)
So you're saying to cycle with fish? How long would you cycle that? Would you add 1 or 2 corals first, or after it's cycled? do you wait for the chemicals to reach the levels they are supposed to to call it finished cycling, or should i still wait for a month or two? Thats one thing that really turned me on to this hobby was the fact that you have to add fish slowly. It spreads out how much money you can spend at once.

[mitchellmoto]

Sorry to confuse you.
Simply put you need ammonia to start your cycle.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/mitchellmoto/NitrogenCycle.jpg

The ammonia will feed the bacteria and start the cycle. You should read about the nitrogen cycle to get the specifics but it isn't too complicated. Fish waste, fish food, or a piece of frozen shrimp "rot" in your tank breaking down and producing ammonia. Some people even add ammonia chloride. There are also products on the market to help cycle the tank. You will be waiting for the nitrite to spike and reach zero before your tank is cycled.

So basically if you have no form of ammonia in your tank your cycle will not start properly. That is why if you are not "feeding" your tank for 2-3 month it won't really do much good. I'm not necessarily recommending cycling with fish, there are probably a dozen different ways to cycle to system and you should find the one that best suits you. Most people cycle with a fish because it gives them something to look at while the process takes place. It has its downfalls as well though, such as possible fish death, being stuck with a fish you may not want and possibility of introducing pathogens into your system.

As far as coral you want to make sure your system in cycled before you ever think about adding them. You should also start with easier, hardier corals first and save move delicate corals, such as SPS, for after your tank has matured.

I hope i wrote all that correct and it is easier to understand. If you search for nitrogen cycle you will find thousands of articles describing the process and the different options of completing it.

And yes even after the cycle you should still add fish slowly. Just because it is cycled doesn't' mean it is mature enough to add a dozen fish at once. One or two fish at a time.....

Later
Mitch

[mitchellmoto]

I linked a video on the cycling products on the facebook page. It is a video from Mr.saltwater tank whom is another great producer of saltwater videos.

[Mstark11]

Yea I've gotten a few lists together of 10-15 'easy to care for' corals and fish. It was sort of horrifying to see "Strong neurotoxin that may affect humans" on the list of easy to use corals.

I can probably cycle with dead shrimp then. Should I add a small cleanup crew first? Or no? I would really prefer not to kill anything in my tank before I've even started that would bum me out. That's why I was a little worried when I thought you were trying to get me to cycle with fish.

As of right now I've watched 6 or 7 bulk reef videos on how to start up the tank, as well as am watching NewYorkSteelo's videos right now I've seen about 18 of them. I'll do Mr.Saltwater next. I think I've seen 1 or 2 of those.

[Mstark11]

I have another question now. While looking through a checklist of things needed to start up a tank, I saw 'protein skimmer, filters and filtration equipment' and I can't tell the difference between a sump and refugium, and a filter and skimmer. Which one is better? Do I need all 4 ? Are they different or the same thing with a different name?

And also, in this NM heat do fans suffice for cooling or would buying a chiller be absolutely necessary. I most likely will have clown fish and a Lo in my tank, so I'm not looking at anything that seems too fragile.

[mitchellmoto]

Skimmer is a must in my book. Especially since you are going for a reef tank. A standard filter gathers particulate from the water but doesn't remove it from the system. It simply rots on the filter pad and because water is still flowing over the pad is still degrading your water quality. A skimmer on the other hand actually removes it from the systems water, where it will sit in the collection cup until you clean the cup. Since it is no longer in the water it won't degrade you water quality. Purchase the best you can afford to fit within your budget. Stay away from the extremely cheap ones and stay away from seaclones. Used one can be sometimes be purchased at awesome prices.There are hang on the back skimmers, in tank skimmers and in sump skimmers

Usually a sump goes under you display tank and is a place for equipment and added water volume. This allows you to remove the equipment from the display and makes for a cleaner setup. Skimmers, heaters, filter media (carbon, GFO, ect..) and possibly auto top offs are the typical items place in the sump, but can also include automated test equipment
A refugium usually goes under but sometimes above you display. Usually there is lower flow thru it and it is a place for algae and small organisms such as coepod and amphipods to populate. The algae can help filter your water.
There are dozens of ways to set a refugium and a sump up. You can have deep sand beds, cryptic zones, extra liverock, and or mud beds.
Typically a sump and refugium are combined into one unit to save space. It will basically be a sump with a sectioned off area to allow the flow thru the sump to slow down.

Problem will be unless your tank is drilled for an overflow you will have to use a hang on the back overflow and thru personal experience know they are prone to failure and can cause your tank to overflow onto the floor.
There are hang on the back refugiums that can be useful or a small above the tank refugium is easy to install and pretty safe.
A sump and or refugium is not absolutely necessary but can make your system more stable.

Chiller isn't typically needed unless you have a lots of powerful pumps running and a lot of metal halide lights on. Usually fans blowing across the surface of the tank are all that is needed in the hottest months of summer. All this could vary depending on how hot or cool you keep you house.

Hopefully I said that clearly

Next

Later
Mitch

[mitchellmoto]

So how is the cycle coming along or are you still just planning?

[Mstark11]

Still planning. First big purchase coming up here at the start of the month. And I was just wondering if you had any opinion as to what I should get ?

I'm flip-flopping on whether or not I want to buy the dry sand and rock and just set it up so I have something in my aquarium for aesthetics. Or if I should get my RO/DI? Since the stand is still just a shell I don't really have anywhere to put any under-the-tank stuff.

http://i47.*******.com/351sikn.jpg

[Mstark11]

The roomie has been helping me build it by doing all the easy stuff like measuring and cutting and drilling and left me to do all the hard work like sitting around and micromanaging ;)

[mitchellmoto]

Well if you don't mind getting water form the local water mill for awhile I'd go with the rock and sand. I'd start there because you could actually start you tank. Even if you are not ready to start it up it would give you plenty of time to arrange your rock work. You want it to be pleasing to your eyes because it is a pain to rearrange later.
Have you found a place to purchase your rock? A lot of people seem happy with macro rock dot com and I like to deal with bulk reef supply but I've never purchased rock from them. I'd stay away from that heavy, solid crap stelas has. You want the lightest, holey est pieces you can get.
Have you decided on the type of sand? I would recommend staying away from the crushed coral or large grained types. Go with small grain or if you are worried about your sand blowing around in the tank get a medium sized grained sand.

I have to ask if that is the pic of your stand laying on its side? Is it made of 4X4s? If so you could park a car on it. It never hurts to go overboard but man you could have gone way smaller. Not meant as a discouraging comment just an observation. If it is in deed made of 4X4 you will never have to worry about it collapsing. I made my stand for my 180gal out of a mixture of 2x4 and 4x4s.

If you live in town and need help feel free to ask. I have a decent amount of tools. I'm in no way a wood working master but I have made a few stands and can provide some help.

That offer of course goes out to any member of the club.

[Mstark11]

Yeah it's on it's side. And they were supposed to be 4x4's but for some weird reason Lowes sells 3x3's and labels them 4x4's. Took us a dang hour to figure out why our measurements weren't lining up right. it should be.. 28" tall by 48" long by .. 13.5" wide (That's the one that really messed us up because the tank wouldn't fit and we couldn't figure out why it was only measuring 11")

We got pretty lucky as my roomie's mom owns the Trailer court near suncity furnature out near 54 to El paso, and so we have about a million and a half tools sitting around.

I was going to get my rock from bulkreefsupply but I hadn't heard of macro rock so I will for sure look there. I had also picked out http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=CS0022&child=CS0022&utm_source=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=mdcsegooglebase2&utm_content=CS0022 This for my sand, I was going to get 3 bags of that and 1 10lb bag of live sand later on when I was ready to start adding life to the aquarium.

Just sort of a curiosity I'd been having. Do you think sand from white sands would work for an aquarium? I have no intention of going out there and trying to smuggle 50lbs of it out but I bet it would look very nice in a reef aquarium.

[mitchellmoto]

White sands sand for sure will not work it is gypsum sand and should not be used. They might not like you taking buckets from the dunes even if you were crazy enough to try.The color would look nice as it is brilliant white.

For the sand you picked it will work just fine, and I think I have some of that mixed in mine, but you may want to look for a sand with a rounder profile rather than angular. there are many threads that go over this so I won't go over it as it can get detailed and opinionated. Either way what you have picked will work just fine and my sand personally is a miss mash of sizes from having so many setups, over time my sand just got mixed into the next type and so on till I was left with a mixture of different sizes. Keep it clean and it won't matter.

On the wood size yes wood sold in stores is never the size it says. I have no clue why this is but for instance a 2X4 is actually closer to a 1.5X 3.5. I'm sure it varies with distributer but I know they are always like that.

[mitchellmoto]

Also remember you either want around 1inch or 5-6inch for a deep sand bed. the middle range won't really be benificial. 1inch is more for a looks and the 5-6inch deep sand bed is meant as a form of filtration for your system. There are of course advacates for both types as many things are in the hobby. On my frag system I use a remote deep sand bed in my sump. Fish selection can also determine what depth you would need.

[Mstark11]

I actually ended up getting a fairly nice deal from Marco rocks. It's 40lb of Key Largo rock and 40lbs of aragonite sand for 118$. The website says the rock is very porous and lightweight, and i picked a fine grain sand. Only thing that's inconvenient about that is that it's shipping from Florida and FedEx is being delayed by the tropical depression. My rock won't be here until the 3rd(optimally). And I have no idea about the sand. But that should hopefully be enough time to finish most of the stand, and get it stained.

On a side note do you know how much Ro/DI water is from the mill? And how much should I pick up? Just 55 gallons or do I need to stock up on 10 extra gallons ?

[mitchellmoto]

I believe it is $0.25 per gallon. Well after you put sand and your rock in your tank will be less than 55gal. I personally keep two 50gal containers full. One is my RO/DI and one is premade salt water. You are certainly going to need extra RO for topping off your tank. You will need to top your tanks off daily to keep your salinity stable and compensate for the evaporated water. So you will want a tleast an extra 5-10 gallons laying around for this purpose.

[Mstark11]

Do you think I should leave the back of the aquarium stand open? Since the glass is tempered, I won't be drilling into it. I don't think I would have drilled into it either way.

Also I've seen a few videos where the top of the stand was open and when they went into the stand you could see the sand under it. Would that also be beneficial? I don't really know what you should be looking for in the bottom of the sand, or if looking at it would help at all.

[mitchellmoto]

Sorry for the late reply. Drilling isn't hard though it can be stessful but unless you are going to setup for a sump it would be pointless to drill.
It doesn't really matter if the bottom of the stand is open or closed. It doesn't do anything other than save the company money becasue they can use less wood.. Do which ever you want as long as the plastic frame on the tank is supported.Make sure to level your stand and tank.

[Mstark11]

My stuff finally got here yesterday. I'm really excited about the rock. I Got 2 REALLY big pieces and then 6 more medium ones. The only question is what on earth do I do with all the little pieces that chipped off and are on the bottom of the box. Can I do something with that or should I just throw it out?
http://i46.*******.com/vpc3gh.jpg
http://i47.*******.com/fckrs.jpg

[mitchellmoto]

awesome, looks like some nice pieces. he irregular pieces should fit together nicely. Shouldn't look like a pile of rocks. I keep all my small pieces to use for coral mounts.

[Mstark11]

Hopefully I can start my cycling by Monday. Gotta finish the stand over the weekend and aquascape. I'll let it cycle and probably throw out the water and cycle it again just for the practice before I throw in the live rock.

[mitchellmoto]

Certainly post pics once the stand is skinned. It is always exciting to see new setups.

Honestly there is no use in cycling twice because is don't really work that way. Once your cycle is done your beneficial bacteria will exist in your rock and sand bed. So unless you dry out the sand and rock the bacteria will still exist even if you swap all the water. One helpful hit will be if you haven't purchased your skimmer yet and want to start your tank it might be helpful to do larger sized water changes than the typical 10% weekly.

Keep us updated!

[Mstark11]

Ok so now I have another question (Ah sorry I have soooo many.) Should I cycle my tank before or after I have live rock/sand? I'm not sure if adding the rock and sand will screw up a completed cycle, but on the other hand I worry that It will kill any beneficial hitchhikers if I put them in pre-cycle. And do you know if Fish and Phipps has any of either in stock?

I only need 10-15lbs of both and looking around online the shipping is just going to kill me.

[mitchellmoto]

Ray should have a few pieces of rock and may have a bag of live sand, just ring him up. And as much as I hate to mention them Stelas carries a bag from time to time. Petco almost always carries a bag of the sand. You only need one small bag. As to whether the rock or sand will screw up your cycle really depends on how you go about it. If you were to cycle your tank then order live rock/sand offline it could affect your cycle. The reason is because they will not ship the rock in water as it would cost a fortune to ship. Problem is without water a lot of life will begin to die on the rock so when you add it to your system, you will be adding a large amount of decaying matter and that will cause some problems. This is why you can cycle a tank with live rock . If you get some rock from an individuals pre-existing system you should have no problem. You should have no problem just keeping the rock moist from Rays to your house.

I'm sure that a few thing on your live rock may suffer during the cycle but I am just guessing that it would be minimum. The main thing you are after on the rock/ sand is the bacteria and algae, it should be just fine through the cycle and should even help establishing a healthy bacteria colony.

So the short answer is I "personally" would add the live rock and sand when you setup the tank to help establish your bacteria. Another helpful tip is, if you have a light, to add a handful of cheato. As it grows it will help combat the algae, by removing excess nutrients form the water. It will grow and once your cycle has finish you can find a way to secure it in your display, throw it away or give it to another aquarist.

Don't worry about the questions as I enjoy it. I always feel like I'm shooting down peoples idea when I have to explain that the way they are going about something may not be the best method. The ultimate problem is besides the few basics there isn't just one way to do things. You can find many examples on this site of people doing unconventional methods and having great success. I would say they are fewer than the folks keeping to the standard methods. But without experimentation the hobby will never progress. So keep the questions coming just know I'm not the know everything person but I try to do lots of research and try to keep thing as simple as possible.

later
Mitch

[Mstark11]

I'll call him up on Monday. Going to go see what we can do about water today. We went to Cruces last week and I picked up a test kit and a hydrometer and a big bucket of salt. I think it's 160 gallons and I don't know if I really will ever use that much before it goes bad, but I bought it anyway.

The stand is almost done which is nice, and I should have my tank set up by the end of the day.

And it's a good thing you enjoy questions because I have more (:

What kind of fish are notorious jumpers and should I buy a mesh cover or something to keep them from jumping? I remember when I was little, I had 3 fish jump out of my tank when we were gone. Came back and they had dried onto the carpet.

[mitchellmoto]

The bucket should be fine for a long time. Probably 50 gallons to start and 5 gallons weekly water changes the bucket will last about 5 1/2 months. That is if you don't encounter any issues. Dissolution is the solution so there are alot if instances where the best course of action will be to up you water changes to correct some parameter. Just remember to keep the lid tight on the bucket to prevent moisture from collecting. If it gets alot of moisture in it you will have to chisel it because it will clump together.

The typical jumpers are probably gobys and wrasses but any fish can get spooked and try to flee the scene. You can make a very effective and inexpensive mesh top. Just get the screen kits from the home supply stores but instead of using screen, which will block too much light, get bird netting. It is plastic and is more open and shouldn't melt or block much light. I probably have a bunch of the netting left if you decide to go that route. It comes in a big roll which you won't even use a 10th of. Nice thing is you can make it fit into the plastic rim on the aquarium so the top of your tank will be flush. You can also go around the plumbing for filters.

[Mstark11]

That's good to know because a goby is one of the things I would just love to have. (I really enjoy the goby/pistol pair) As for right now we're using the leftover paneling and setting it on top of the tank but that won't last forever.

I found an LED on sale (like 60$ or something) and I couldn't resist so I got one of those with my bulkheads.

Also, how many Zoa's would you recommend putting in a tank? And should I buy some sort of additive or supplement before I put them in?

[mitchellmoto]

I guess the first question is I thought you were not drilling your tank so I'm curious what the bulkhead is for?
Next question would be do you have enough light for Zoas? $60 seems awfully cheap for LEDs, so I'm assuming they are only 1w LEDs and not enough light for corals, only for visual. What brand and model is the LED unit?
If you have enough light then there isn't a specific amount of zoas. I would stress that you should start slow and I would buy a few small frags to try out. I wouldn't spend tons of cash on a large colony or a lot of frags if you are not sure your tank is ready.

There are a lot of different additives but none absolutely needed for Zoas. You also need to be careful if you decide to add any supplements to your systems most can cause major problems if overdosed. I mistakenly dosed too much Bionic two part solution a few weeks ago and lots several pieces of coral and my tank is just now starting to get back to normal. I don't use many supplements at all. I only use two part now and I'm switching to Kalkwasser within the next week but I try to stay away from most of the others because they are expensive and complicate things. Just starting out your tank should be fine as long as you keep up with your maintenance.
Also make sure your tank has fully cycled before adding any coral.

[Mstark11]

I think the corals will be going in last. I was looking somewhere where I think you got 1 polyp frags at a time which seems to be a pretty good idea because that way if I kill it, I haven't wasted a whole ton of money on it.

And it's not a bulkhead, it's power head. I'm never going to remember all these names of things. either way it has suction cups.

[Mstark11]

Ok so, Now I've been well set up! (for now) I got 20lbs of live sand from Stella's, because Ray did not have any, and Stella's did. Then Ray got me some very nice things and I ended up spending waaaaaaay more money that I should have. I got a nice Double bright, i think MH light, 15lbs of Live rock, glass cover for my tank, and he was nice enough to throw in a bottle of Kent Purple Tech (: I would post pictures but all you would see is a big brown cloud. I am very excited though and thoroughly enjoyed Ray. I thought he was a very nice, knowledgeable person.

[mitchellmoto]

I've never heard of a double bright MH light. Did Ray order it for you. Double Bright is the model of Marinelands LED lights. Is that what you got?? And you may want to get use to spending too much. I've been spending too much since I started this hobby.

A heads up though you may not be able to use that glass top. Cetainly not if you the light you purchased is a metal halide. The glass top is going to trap heat in and raise the temperature your you water to unsafe levels. Certainly keep an eye out for that.

Give your tank a few days and the cloud will settle, good to hear you are starting things. Exciting!!!!
Now you've meet Ray you can see why I purchase from Stelas Last.

Later
Mitch

[Mstark11]

I'm not sure what the light is, it looks like one of those fluorescent lights from a work shop. All the box says is "double bright"

[Mstark11]

Ok, so, this morning, I took a look in my tank and saw a completely empty hole in the back of the tank. Some time in the week, my powerhead slipped off the wall and blew sand everywhere.

While moving my sand around, it sort of raised 2 more questions.
1. I pulled my T-10(that's what it is, I found it in tiny text on the bottom of the box!) light off and the white bulb fell right out. I realize I'd been using my blue light only for who knows how long, probably since we brought it home.

Will that have screwed up my cycle?

and 2. I was scooping sand around and it sort of feels a little barren sand-wise, so I was thinking of buying a bag of actual live sand, with the water and all of that and was wondering if that would screw up my cycle too?

What I tested this morning on day 6, were

Phosphates: 0
Nitrate: 0.25
Nitrite: 0.5
Ammonia 0.25

[Mstark11]

Ok 1 more, sorry.

My power head dropped again, I'm gunna have to find a way to stop that. I think what's happening is sand is getting in the cups and unsticking them.

But it kicked up some sand in the corner and my water turned this funky, almost bright green.
http://i48.*******.com/hwzqmt.jpg

Should I be concerned? Do I need a clean-up crew?

[mitchellmoto]

If it was a mature tank I'd be more concerned as you could possibly expose some nasties hiding in the sand bed. I would give it a day to settle down and smooth the sandbed back down and use the powerhead to blow it off your rock. You might have to find another method of securing your powerhead. Those suction cups always fail. You may have to purchase a magnetic mount if one is available or if you are crafty you may might make one.

What kind of power head is it? Brand? I could tell you or find another mount if one is out there.

[Mstark11]

I'm using 2x maxi-jet 900 from marineland. My roommate and I used to paint miniature warhammer figurines so we have earth magnets laying around somewhere that I could probably jimmy in there.

[mitchellmoto]

Well you can not put it in by its self. It would have to be epoxied to prevent the saltwater from reaching the magnet. The magnet will rust and leach chemicals into the water.

The brand "Algae Free" has a sure grip magnetic mount. cost is under $30. You can find it at marine depot or Dr foster and smith. If you have the standard maxi jet power head, you should check out their maxi jet upgrade kit it comes with the magnetic mount and a propeller end that will increase you output drastically. If you have the maxi jet pro which has the two configurations just get the magnet mount.

You can also just make your own and you can find a few dozen threads and/or videos on how to do it.

[Mstark11]

Ok, I'm slightly concerned again.

It's day 10 on the cycle and my parameters look like this:

Phosphates: 0
Nitrates: 0
Ammonia: 0.15
Nitrites:0

The ammonia going down to 0.15 was a huge improvement since it never dropped below 0.25 since Day 1.

Now, I'm slightly concerned because It's all 0 on day 10. Should I consider it cycled, and dose for ammonia, or should I be skeptical and keep checking it every morning?

It's been on a pretty good schedule. Turn on T-10, check parameters at 10am. Turn off T-10 at 10pm, dose with Kent purple tech, turn on Lunar light. The single bright I got has lunar lights which makes me happy (: I don't feel so bad for wasting 60$.

I won't be purchasing a fish to put in it, even if it is cycled, until the beginning of this month. I'll probably pick up a one-spot fox face and a protein skimmer. Also, at what point should I do my first water change? You suggested 10% weekly will that be enough for a first water change or should I do more?

[Mstark11]

Ok I can't figure out how to edit posts with my phone so I have to make a new one, I just wanted to add that I have some nice brown algae on my thermometer, sand and cords from my maxi jets.

[mitchellmoto]

Wait unless your nitrite has spiked it isn't over. You are going to also see alot more brown algae as well. To cut down on this reduce your lighting schedule and add cheato if you can get your hands on some.
I can't imagine it being over in ten days. People have been setting up tanks for a awhile and around a month is a good estimate. As far as doing a water change during your cycle it is another heated debate. Some people say doing so can prolong the cycle process others say yes to help reduce toxins in the water.

I personally do water changes during the cycle but not weekly, more random. 10% should be fine. After the cycle has finished I do larger water change before I add any fish.
You could probably hold off on testing daily, every few days should fine. More doesn't hurt and some people use the data to graph their progress. Thats more work than I want to mess with.

Also you mentioned turning on a t-10. Is this your lighting? If so do you mean t-5? There of course are such things as t10 fluorescent lights but not typically used in aquarium lighting.
T5HO is the new norm in aquarium lighting.

I always like fox face and rabbit fish you should check out the different varieties rather than the standard. Also make sure to keep it well fed to possibly prevent any nipping of LPS or softies.

Later
Mitch

[Mstark11]

http://www.aquariumguys.com/quantum.html

That's what the light is.

And I don't mind testing every day. Gives me something to look forward to in the morning (:
Plus I'm in Chemistry right now over the summer, and I'm doing my presentation on the nitrogen cycle. I'll call Ray maybe later today and see if he has some Cheato, if not I might be able to order it but I'm out of the house from 12-6 usually mon-thursday and who knows when the delivery guy will show up.

[mitchellmoto]

I have never seen Ray have any cheato. Ordering should be fine as it will not need to be shipped over night.

I would like to mention that the light you have will not be enough for coral. It is perfectly fine for fish but I do not believe it will be powerful enough for coral. Not saying it will be totally useless,as you may be able to use it for supplimental lighting if you can find the proper bulbs but won't be enough on their own.

[Mstark11]

Well, would I be able to use the single-bright LED and the T-10 together for hardy, low/med light polys, or maybe like a candy cane coral? I can fit both of the lights on the top of the tank. Or Maybe an anemone since I've heard they are notorious for making themselves comfortable regardless of where you put them.

I don't necessarily want/need an anemone, I would just like to give my clowns something to host. Would there be anything easier or hardier with lower light? Like maybe a Lordhowensis Coral?

[mitchellmoto]

If you are talking about the Marineland single bright LED I'd probably have to say no. There may be some mushrooms that might work but I'm really doubting it. Sorry! I hate to tell you after the fact. I wish I had know you were looking to purchase your lighting so soon I could have guided you in a better direction. The problem with those lights is they just don't have the penetrating power to reach down into the water and provide the proper amount of light for the coral to thrive. I would assume if you did add coral to your current lighting that the coral would last a little while but would eventually wither away.

Anemones usually need high light.You can sometimes feed extra to help with lower lighting but your lighting would be too low. They do move all around and usually find a place that makes them happy and they will sit for awhile but in the end they will continue to move around eventually.

Lighting is usually a pretty expensive purchase. I can probably help you find the right lighting when you are ready. You can save loads once again if you are willing to build your lighting. You can buy retrofit kits and build it into a self made hood. Not very hard.
There are VHO, compact fluorescents, T5HO, Metal Halide, and LEDs
VHO and compacts are really on the way out and are not as widely used as they use to be. The three typical for today are the T5HO, halides and LEDs

LEDs are the most expensive of the three but save you cash in the long run as they do not require bulb replacements like the other two. I personally have a fondness for Halides but I have T5HO on my nano, and LED/halides on my frag tanks.

If you want some help let me know I can throw a couple options your way. We can work with cash limits if you are willing to build as you have built your own.

Also keep in mind if you don't end up using your current lighting you can probably sell it to someone with a fish tank.

Later
Mitch

[Mstark11]

I'm still looking good.

Phosphates: 0
Nitrate:0
Nitrite:0
High Range PH: 8.2
Calcium: 400
Carbonate Hardness: 161


But that dang ammonia ): Still at 0.15-0.25. I'll try doing 10% water changes daily. I changed the water a few days ago to see if that would help and it hasn't moved. I can't figure out where the ammonia is coming from. Drives me nuts!

[Mstark11]

Ok, well I'm either doing much better, or much much worse.

Woke up, water was a little opaque but not bad.
ammonia around 0.8
nitrate: 2
nitrite: around 0.25

I've been getting some colorful algae everywhere, mostly browns and red. Some of my dry rocks are seeding with oranges and reds and it looks nice.

But when I came home, the tank had clouded up substantially and so i tried to test my parameters again to see if anything changed, and most of the stuff doubled up.

ammonia is right around 1
nitrate is around 10
nitrite around 0.5

I've also got a big red patch on the front that seemed to show up while I was out of the house for 3 or 4 hours.

http://i50.*******.com/30kwrc2.jpg
http://i50.*******.com/w1to5j.jpg
http://i47.*******.com/m75aow.jpg

[mitchellmoto]

Did the sand get kick up again. That is what it appears but your water certainly shouldn't be that cloudy. Stirring up the sand can cause problem with your parameters. I'm not sure how to explain it but for example if your anaerobic bacteria gets exposed to high levels of oxygen they can die. When this happens not only are they not doing their job but they may release something into the water column. I'm sure that is overly simplified but hopefully you get the idea.

The algae is the norm during the cycle and reducing the lighting period can help combat it but it is inevitable.

[Mstark11]

I thought it might have been the sand, because I was cleaning off the substrate from the rocks (which are seeding, YAY!! that really excites me!) 2 or 3 days ago and it just has not cleared up since then. I figured maybe I'd gotten some sort of small algae bloom because of all the algae growing out of nowhere.

[mitchellmoto]

Algae need light to grow so kill the light if you are getting a bloom. Doing a water change may help? It may be just a wait and be pateint moment, just wait for everything to settle down but a water change couldn't hurt.

[reefaluva]

Water is def cloudy, looks like sand. Imo do a water change and relax. Leave the tank alone for awhile and see how things go. Where did you get your rock and sand from. Looks nice.

[Mstark11]

I usually try to leave it alone. Except for the red algae on the front.. That I picked at a little. I'm also having trouble not scraping the diatoms off the glass on the back. My tank was always so spotless before that ):

And I got the base rock and sand from http://www.marcorocks.com/. 40lb key largo rock, 40lb aragonite sand for $120 so I was pretty happy. The live rock I got from Fish and Phipps in town.

[mitchellmoto]

Glenn is right on the button. First priority would be to secure that powerhead so it won't fall again. I'm not sure if you have purchased your skimmer yet but a skimmer may help to pull the floating debris out of the water column.

I also noticed you reached the 50 post mark now after 90 day of registration you will be able to view the for sale/ trade/ WTB section and can find some great deals.

[Mstark11]

:)! Yay! That makes me feel a lot better. This month has been aweful financially so I was getting a little worried about affording a skimmer.

[reefaluva]

Marco rocks looks great. I would def get something on that ph. SCA makes a cheap and affordable skimmer. Read great reviews on them. Check that out. If you have the money get some koralia evolutions. Dont have to worry about ph falling ever. There is better phs out there but sounds like you want to save mmoney=)

[Mstark11]

I bought the tank tempered, at least there was a sticker that said "Tempered glass: do not drill." Otherwise I would have snatched up some Koralia Evolutions day 1.

[reefaluva]

You do not have to drill tank. They are just power heads with magnets that hold them on the glass. So you do not have to worry about powerhead falling off and blowing your sand everywhere.

[Mstark11]

... Now I feel stupid. I've been thinking "Man I wish I had those!" every time I see them, but thought I had to drill into the glass! (: I know what my next order will be~

[Mstark11]

Ok, so that nice red Algae has sprouted little arms and has begun swaying back and forth and I'm not gunna lie, it getting a little gross.

Should I kill the lights? I've been trying to do 8-10 but should I go lower?

[mitchellmoto]

since you have no coral killing the lights or useing them less will not hurt a thing. You can also use airline hose or any small hose to suck up the really bad areas. Some people rubberband airline hose to a toothbrush so while they scrub the hose sucks up the loose algae

[Mstark11]

Yea I had no idea how bad it was getting until I looked at the back of the tank.

On the plus side, I think I saw some sort of pod-looking bug. It ducked away and I can't find it anymore, so that might be good news. Either that or it was an unlucky bug that fell into the tank, grabbed a rock and promptly drowned.

[reefaluva]

kill the lights. Add more flow. you can siphon it out as well. Need to run some gfo. That looks like cyno to me. Normal but need to jump on it cause it will take over lol. Grows where there is not alot of flow also. Had it in one of my tanks and gfo, flow, and a little siphoning took care of it.

[Mstark11]

Can I attach a GFO and a skimmer during the cycle?

[reefaluva]

Skimmer np wont hurt anything. Gfo is phosphate remover. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php < interesting read. I wouldnt worry too much about stuff until your cycle is over.

[Mstark11]

Yea, I killed the lights last night, I usually leave on the moon lights at night as a night light. But, doing that and swapping the jets around seemed to really agitate it. I went from having a thick, dark, hairy red carpet to some little sparse pink patches overnight.

Cleaned it out, scraped it off the rocks I saw and got in a water change so it's all good (: Wasn't sure if I should have scraped it off the glass, so I just left it alone.

[Mstark11]

Woo-hoo! Ammonia and Nitrites are 0, and most of the Cyano seems to be under controll! (: Now to wait for nitrate and hope nothing goes back up!

[Mstark11]

Ok, so Ammonia and Nitrites have been 0 now for a while, and with Nitrates going up to about 80, I'm starting water changes.

I choked out and killed the cyano and i don't see any other algae on the substrate either, a little on the glass in the back. What I want to know is should I add a CUC even though i don't see really any algae, or should I add a fish then next month put in a cuc? Once I reduce Nitrates.

[mitchellmoto]

I would wait a little on the cuc. Since your sand is a bit barren at this point there wouldn't be much for it to feed on. Also make sure to get the correct cuc for what you want. For example if you want a cuc to help keep your sand bed clean don't get a yellow cucumber as it feeds by filtering the water thru it's appendages.

[reefaluva]

Personally I would get some fish then add cuc. Like mitch said just know what your buying)

[Mstark11]

Well that sucks, I got a cleaner shrimp and 2 turbo snails, and one of the snails was dead. Didn't think anything of it until Ammonia started going up. ):

[mitchellmoto]

You have to keep an eye on your snails, many can not right themselves if they fall on their back. So you will have to occasionally have to flip them over.

[Mstark11]

I have a question about hermit crabs.

When I was young and lived near Galveston, they always sold hermit crabs in those novelty beach stores and so I always had a few. As a kid i thought they were really cool but as an adult all I can remember is them being disgusting little creatures. So I want to avoid them at all cost, but I was thinking, if I had a constant supply of more than 1 or 2, would I have to deal with them, or will they just sort of "take care of" the dead ones?
And how important are they to a tank?

[mitchellmoto]

Well they can be very beneficial but they are not absolutely necessary. They are not a solution to any one thing but they can be part of any good clean up crew. They can be a pain as well. They like to kill your snail for their shells. So you should provide them will loose shells to try and prevent this.

[Mstark11]

Should I be dosing anything?
I have the foxface, 1 cleaner shrimp and all those snails. Everyone eats (especially the foxface, he eats EVERYTHING. little piggy.) but i haven't seen the shrimp molt.

[mitchellmoto]

I would say dosing is not needed right now. Maybe some purple up or similar item to help increase the Coraline algae. But nothing is really needed. Just keep up with water changes and tank maintenance and let your system mature. Add fish slowly and make sure your research before you purchase. You want to make sure your livestock choices will coexist. Probably make a list of your top fish and invert choices. Your shrimp will molt but it isn't that often. Make sure your snail have enough algae. with that many you will probably have to supplement some algae.

Later
M

[Mstark11]

Ok, so since I think one of my lights is buzzing and I know that's never a good sign, I was thinking of doing new lights next.
I was thinking either this:
http://www.aquatraders.com/EVO-Quad-48-LED-Reef-Bright-p/56237.htm

Or this:
http://www.aquatraders.com/48-inch-4x54W-T5-Aquarium-Light-Fixture-p/52325p.htm

I'm not really sure if either is better in terms of lighting, I know the LED will be more cost-efficient in the long run (plus you can buy a fan for it.)

[reefaluva]

I would stay away from odyssea products. Well at least the lights I have read bad things about there t-5's and mh catching fire etc. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2072157 here is a good thread about the leds. Read on and judge if its worth the money. Do you plan on keeping corals at all? If not go with the marineland leds.

[Mstark11]

I guess mostly I just need something with legs, since I took the glass off the top. I don't have jumpers yet so i haven't put a screen on it. I put the strip light i had up on some scrap wood leftover from the stand and it works up there.

I like the idea of having a timer on the light, but It doesn't really matter. I know you can get a timer on a power strip. I just want to make sure I don't buy a third useless light. (: (or burn my house down.) And yes, I would eventually like to get corals. Otherwise I do have a marineland single bright right now.

http://i47.*******.com/2yvj7gy.jpg
That's what it looks like on top for now

[mitchellmoto]

I can say everyone always says the same thing about odyssea products but you will find 90% of the people that comment on them have actually never owned them. No offense Glen. There is a thread where one of their very old MH lights systems caught fire. But a fire can be started very easily when saltwater and electricity meet. I can say I have owned several of their light so i have first hand experience with them. Yes you do get what you pay for and odyssea are not top quality lights. They have generic ballasts and reflectors suck. If you want a cheap light to start you off i think they are OK but I would save up for a quality fixture down the road. My first MH was an odyssea and right now I own two T5HO odyssea fixtures. I have had zero problems with their lights. I want to stress "lights" because I have seen a few of their pumps and skimmers first hand and they are useless. I used the MH light for well over a year before I saved up enough to get a better light. Never had any problems. One of the two T5s I have had for a little while with no issues and the other is new but didn't provide enough lights to properly grow my plants so I've already upgraded. Another cheap company is "fishneedit"
All that being said there are far better products out there. And there is always the DIY setup. I couldn't remember if you said you wanted a hood or an open top but you can make a simple hanging DIY light fixture for a decent price. You also would get a reflector for each bulb which greatly increase the light.
I would trust the t5 over the LED just because when it is time to replace the lamps you could purchase better bulbs. But I have been curious about those LEDs they sells. I'm not entirely convinced they provide enough light but with out buying them and using a light meter to test there isn't any way to tell.

So my final say would be there are by far better lights out there but if you want something cheap to start you off with I would say at least the T5 should be enough to get you started with easy lower to mid light corals. But if you can swing the price of a better fixture I would go that route instead.

I would also like to add that this just my experience with the three fixtures I have had and since I haven't had any issues I also don't know what their customer service is like, which seems to stem some of their major complaints.

[Mstark11]

I don't really plan on adding any delicate corals until I've had the tank for probably another 8-10mo. Just to make sure I have a stable(er), system that's well established. I looove how candy cane corals look, and will probably do low-med light polys just to start with, so I don't really need some super expensive lighting system.

What about something like
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+23753&pcatid=23753
or
http://www.marinedepot.com/Coralife_Aqualight_Dual_T5_Lamp_High_Output_Fixture_24_Inch_T5_Fluorescent_Light_Fixtures-Coralife-ES08600-FILTFIT54U-vi.html

[mitchellmoto]

Those are better fixtures but only two bulbs really will limit your coral selection to shrooms. Maybe some Zoas way up high. What seems nice about the aquatic life fixture is that you can get one now and add additional fixtures slowly as you get money. If you eventually link three together for a total of 6 bulbs you would certaily have enough light for some coral. But at the price of three of those fixtures you could get one 6 bulb fixture cheaper. I would suggest 4-6 54w T5HO bulbs.

It would be easier to just get a 4X 54w T5 fixture and with that amount of light you should have enough lighting for a very nice softie and LPS tank. May even be enough for some lower light SPSs down the road.

[mitchellmoto]

Also try to get a fixture with the individual reflectors.

[Mstark11]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/48-216W-T5-HO-Aquarium-Light-Hood-LCD-Timer-Coral-Reef-4x54-Fluorescent-Actinic-/230841612004?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35bf3b76e4

So then maybe more something like that?

[mitchellmoto]

Still only has one large reflector not individual reflectors.

[reefaluva]

I bought some of there old t-5 lights and they were crap. Broke in 3 months. Yea customer service was not there. No offense taken at all mitch) Def get individual reflectors if you can. Also if your looking into led check out reef breeders i bought some of there cree led's and so far they are amazing.

[Mstark11]

http://www.aquacave.com/JBJ-48-TRINITY-4-x-54W-High-Output-T5-Light-Fixture-P3185C1057.aspx

This?

[reefaluva]

I think those will work great. Get some good high quality bulbs from reef geek. You should be set. Let mitch chime in also.

[Mstark11]

Yea I just wanna make sure I get everyone's opinions. I dunno if you read back, but I bought a single-bright LED for 60$ then a T5 strip light for 90.

[mitchellmoto]

I think that one would work just fine. I think around that price range as long as you stay with a quality brands you should be ok. That fixture comes with bulbs I believe, but for instance Tek systems I personally like beter but they don't include bulbs, leg or hanging kits and no acrylic cover. Which all adds to the total cost. I would just look for a good sale, know brand and 4 x 54w bulbs.

[Mstark11]

Well, so I think I made an uh-oh.

When I've been refreshing my top-off, I just naturally assumed that I needed to mix it with salt water. Saltwater leaving tank = Saltwater needs to be put back.

And checking my salinity last night while acclimating my Coral Beauty, and then again this morning I'm at like 1.033, I assumed last night my Hydrometer was just being cheap and broken, but testing it out on controlled saltwater, it works just fine.

So I guess now to start the slow, all-day process of reducing salinity back down to 1.022 :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

[Mstark11]

Ok I have another question.

I'm looking at media reactors.
http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaMaxx_GFO_and_Carbon_Filter_Media_Reactor_Fluidized_Bed-AquaMaxx-UJ5311-FIFRISFB-vi.html This is what I've been looking at, with http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaMaxx_BioMaxx_Plus_BioPellets_Filter_Media_Biofiltration_Nutrient_Control-AquaMaxx-UJ00137-FIFMBOBC-vi.html (I'm still scrubbing hair algae.)

Can I mix media? Like, can I put carbon and phosphate media in the same reactor?

Does that canister seem ok? Should I get a sump with bio balls instead? I've heard a lot of "you'll regret bio balls" but i don't really know why you wouldn't want to use it. Any other suggestions?

[mitchellmoto]

No saltwater doesn't evaporate only fresh water, minerals don't evaporate. So when you top off your tank you only add Fresh RO water.

As far as media it will depend on the media. Those bio pellets need a certain type of reactor. It is only a very settle difference but the screens are different, the pellets also need to tumble but you don't want carbon or GFO tumbling. So not all medias can be in the same reactor. As far as GFO and carbon that should be fine but check the GFO you are using I believe some will polish the water as carbon does and will reduce the need to use different medias.
Bio balls are usually plastic balls with lots of surface area for bacteria to grow on. The problem has more to do with the fact that they can collect detritus and pollute your water. They get dirty and become nitrate factories. They have to be clean frequently. I would use live rock rubble or maybe the ceramic bio balls. It is just one more thing to clean and watch, usually easier to not mess with them. Don't get bio balls and bio pellets confused as they of course are not the same thing. I have heard great things about the bio pellets and have thought about using them in my systems.

[Mstark11]

): Well, got my first casualty. I guess changing salinity like that, the poor little shrimp couldn't handle it.

Died under a rock too. Dang.

[mitchellmoto]

Sorry for your loss. Always sucks to lose an tank member.
Did you ever decide on a light?

[Mstark11]

I bought a Phosban reactor the other day, and Marine Depot sent me a catalog, so I've been thumbing through it. And I figured if I'm going to spend an arm and a leg anyhow, i might as well get something I can use for a while.

So this is what I was thinking of.
http://www.marineandreef.com/AquaticLife_48_T5_HO_6_Lamp_Fixture_Lunar_Lights_p/ral01192.htm

The 8-lamp fixture would be nice but it doesn't come with an acrylic lens or fans. And with the heat around here, I really am going to need fans on a light of that caliber.

[Mstark11]

So the angel is missing part of his tail. Curious as to where you think it might have gone. He doesn't seem to notice, swimming normally, eating normally, the foxface doesn't have any frays or tears and no one generally looks like they've suffered an ammonia burn.
http://i47.*******.com/11qlgk4.jpg
Just to add because it might be hard to see, there's no discoloration on the tail.

[mitchellmoto]

Probably a fresh bite?? Maybe. I'd be eying the only other fish you have he may your nipper. Or it is possible you have some sort of unwanted hitchhiker in your live rock?? Some sort of crab maybe but I'd blame the fox face first.

[Mstark11]

I figured maybe he clipped it on the pump intake. I converted a maxi jet into one, so that w
Was my guess, but I'll keep an eye on my other guy, the CB still tries to pick on him occasionally

[Mstark11]

:sad2: Checking the CB this morning, I can see some dreaded white spots. I've been watching him all morning, to try and catch him scratching to confirm, but he has not yet.

So I guess It's time to go get a QT and dose with copper. Does raising the temp to 85F+ kill it in the DT?

Edit :

You know, scratch that. I'm not sure it's ich. He had 3~4 spots and now he only has one. I'll try to dose his food with garlic and get another shrimp.

[reefaluva]

From what i understand shrimp and inverts cannot get ich. Thats fish only. 85 is too high imo highest I would go and not worry would be 82 ish. But never have went above that. Why would you want to raise temp? btw copper will kill all inverts.

[Mstark11]

When you move everyone to a QT you raise DT to 85, or so I was reading. I guess at that temp ich cannot reproduce.

[reefaluva]

I think that will do nothing but possibly increase the metabolism of parasite and fish. That may be the cure some have seen. Also I was thinking you were raising temp for a everyday temp lol. Imo copper in the qt would be all you need.

[reefaluva]

haha just noticed cb (coral beauty) not cb(coral banded shrimp) lol thats why i said all that about inverts etc=)

[Mstark11]

oh (: Yea I don't have any inverts anymore. And I'm still not convinced it's ich. No itching, no appetite loss, just the 1 dot on the 1 fish.

[reefaluva]

Hope it's not ich. Just high quality food and some garlic. Fish should make recovery:) did u ever get some lights?

[Mstark11]

I haven't. I'm still banging my head on the wall with my grant money for college. Once that comes it, it will be lights, sump, ATO, skimmer and then RO/DI if I have leftover.

[Mstark11]

And I don't see white today. I guess it's not quite breakfast because they won't let me get a good look at them, but with the CB it should be super easy to see since he's such a dark fish.

[mitchellmoto]

Wow lots going on. Don't rush the purchase take your time and make sure you get the best deal on the exact fixture you want. I would personally go with a good quality skimmer before the lights. ATO would be last on my list as it is a convenience not a necessity.

If it is ich, as long as the fish continues to eat usually they will pull thru but quarantining him would be the best. You will have to keep an eye out for ich on the other fish.

[Mstark11]

Yea everyone's eating just fine. The spot seems to be gone. I picked up some garlic earlier today and soaked some pellets and they ate those things right up, which is good because until then It was looking like I had just wasted 20$ on flakes and pellets.

And as for the new stuff, I haven't rushed anything. Still waiting on the school to sort out forms, so I'll be lucky to have the money end of the month. The only reason I have sort of prioritized the ATO was because earlier in the year I messed up my wrist pretty good and dealing with the water is really starting to flare things up. But I am looking at light>sump>skimmer>ATO>RO/DI. I should be able to squeeze that all in.

And enjoy your wedding! (:

[mitchellmoto]

Im back in town now. How did your fish do? did everyone make it?

[Mstark11]

Yea everyone's alive. The Beauty's tail is almost all the way back, but it does look like the foxface is picking on him, a few of his scales seems gone up by his back.

[Mstark11]

Pods! (: I have pods. How did I get them? Did they come in on the rock? How did they survive the cycle?

[mitchellmoto]

They are very resilient.

[mitchellmoto]

So any updates? Fish still hanging in there?

[Mstark11]

Yea. I'm debating with my roommate over a pistol/goby combo or a Lawnmower blenny. He wants the pistol/goby and I want the Blenny. We had agreed on the goby pair initially and he really had his heart set on it, but I was afraid the angelfish would eat the shrimp. Only to my surprise I had seen posts from people complaining the pistol shrimp killed their angel.

So now I'm leaning towards a blenny, and he won't budge.

[mitchellmoto]

I love blennies though I'm not as keen on the lawnmower. I love the small varieties, for example tri color or spot tail.

[Mstark11]

2 Questions:

#1: Thinking about a Tux. Urchin. Any opinions? Think my system can support it?

#2: Looking at Kent Marine Essential Elements, and one of the ingredients in it is copper? Doesn't that kill inverts?

[mitchellmoto]

Tux would be the smaller choice of urchins. There are down sides to them. Like they will pick up anything lose and carry it on their back. Snail, coral frags not secured really anything they can use for camouflage. but for the most part they are great. you may have to get some nori to feed it if you don't have enough algae in your system. Beside adding some algae for them they really are easy to keep.

I've never used that chemical you are describing but as far as I know copper is lethal to all inverts. I personally don't recommend adding chemicals to your tank except for a select few. I believe most are snake oil and there is no oversight on them so they can claim whatever they want. I never really used anything other than calcium and magnesium supplements. I also wouldn't dose anything you can not measure with a test kit. So if you decide to use it my best advice would be to make sure you research it very well before adding it to your system.

[Mstark11]

Yea I wasn't going to add it, I was just looking through the Kent stuff and noticed that.
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewitem.aspx?idproduct=KM3271&child=KM3271&utm_source=adwordsfroogle&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=adwordsfroogle&utm_content=KM3271&gclid=CIyisNHm_7ICFQSxnQodVAsAtA

What about a kalkwasser mix?

[reefaluva]

IMO you don't need to dose anything if you don't have corals. Water changes should restore any lost elements. I only dose calcium, and vitamins on occasion. Also if you can't test for it don't dose it... Those urchins are cool but if you plan on corals he will **** you off lol.. They collect a bunch of stuff on them including snails and corals unless of course they are mounted good..

[reefaluva]

Seems people like the essential elements. I guess if u were not doing water changes that would be cool to dose sparingly like 1/2 the recommended dose.

[Mstark11]

Yea I haven't bothered dosing yet, but if I end up getting some corals next month I will start. So I was just sort of looking around and thought "huh. that doesn't seem right."

[Mstark11]

Here is reef inhabitant #3!
I went to Fish n Phipps to pick up some clowns. Ray thought he had some, but the only ones left were a tomato pair and a domino pair. So i saw this little guy out of the corner of my eye and wanted him (:

He has taken over my Mag5 pump I have sitting in the tank (for lack of anywhere to put it) turned off for plumbing reasons.

[mitchellmoto]

Nice , Blennies always have the best personalities.

[Mstark11]

I think I've got coralline on the glass (:! :bounce1:

[mitchellmoto]

YEA now the chore of keeping it off the glass begins.

[mitchellmoto]

Lights still working for ya? Getting any lip marks on the glass yet?

[Mstark11]

The light works fantastic. And the Blenny has been eating really well, which is good. He won't touch the hair algae though, but at least he can't keep up with the film algae on the glass. He completely disappears until about noon which scares the heck outta me every morning. I cannot find him.

[reefaluva]

Is your light coral rdy? I have a few frags I will sell you pretty cheap.

[Mstark11]

It is, but I need to get the stuff to dose (and probably some new salt since mine is all crusted up) and some stuff to hang the light with. Currently it's just sitting on blocks in the back.

[mitchellmoto]

Your salt will always harden. It is just from moisture. Just break it up and use it.

[Mstark11]

Oh (: Someone warned me that it had become calcium carbonate if it hardened. 'Course I do need salt anyhow, since I have Aqua life reef crystals, and the mix only goes up to 1.031-1.032, or that's what it says on the side of the bucket.

[mitchellmoto]

I'm sure some parameters might change slightly but I doubt you will notice it. I don't believe it becomes calcium carbonate rather will loses some of it calcium and akl properties. I'm certainly no chemist. I can say you will always encounter this problem because everytime you open your bucket or bag it will absorb some amount of moisture. I recommend purchasing a bucket with a sealed screw type lid to help prevent this but it will happen eventually. I've used it with no negative affects and your calcium levels are not extremely important to your system because you have no coral. It is only fish. Dissolve it in ro water and make sure it dissolves completely and you probably will not have any issues. I'm sure it might also depend on how bad it is. I always get a crusty top to my buckets but it is never very deep.

[Mstark11]

Ah yea, mine crusted all the way down. I ended up taking a knitting needle and hammering it down into the sides and breaking it down.

[Mstark11]

So, what kind of calcium/mag would you guys recommend and where did you get yours?

[mitchellmoto]

B-ionc 2 part or Bulk reef supply 2 part. Bulk Reef Supply is the cheaper and you get quality product. I've used both and had good success with both.

[Mstark11]

Green Coralline?

[mitchellmoto]

Sure why not there are loads of differnet colors.

[Mstark11]

Yay (: I wanted a Tux urchin, but i didn't have enough coralline.

[mitchellmoto]

While they will eat your coralline algae this is not their main/only diet. They eat a variety of algae. Go to the Asian food store and buy bag of nori(seaweed). Usually they will pick you rock fairly clean then you will have to supplement.

[Mstark11]

Do we have an asian food store in town?

[mitchellmoto]

Yes I think there are two but the one I hit is the one in the granada shopping center.

[Mstark11]

): I don't think the Blenny is going to make it. He was fine up until a few hours ago. Found him laying sideways in the front of the tank, occasionally swimming into the glass.

[mitchellmoto]

That sucks but it does happen are all your other fish ok? If they looked stressed you may want to test you parameters.

[Mstark11]

Yea he definitely starved, it was really apparent. I just didn't think he looked that thin a few days ago. Double tested parameters, Nitrates are a little high, like 20ppm but the other 2 fish are fine. He just died like 5 minutes ago :/

[mitchellmoto]

Yea you might want to get those nitrates down. Bummer on the blenny. What do you feed your fish?

[Mstark11]

Brine/mysis. I just recently got the Angel to eat pellets (The lo eats everything). Last night I grabbed up the blenny and put it in a bucket with tank water tried to target feed flakes, pellets, mysis and brine. Tried tying some algae to a rock and putting it in with him, but he was just not going to have it.
I've got ocean nutrition prime reef flakes and New life spectrum pellets.

[mitchellmoto]

Have your fish fattened up yet? Tank doing OK?

[Mstark11]

Yup. Foxface is as fat as ever, I'm really surprised he hasn't popped yet. waiting on 2-part doser to be back in stock. Went to buy one the other week and they were out, still out last i checked at BRS.

[mitchellmoto]

Out where? Do you mean 2 part alk and calcium? Or an actual dosing pump?

[Mstark11]

The actual pump. I only really managed to find 1 on google for like 30$ more (and they were out too). The one I was watching was on BRS.

[reefaluva]

Am I missing something? Why would you need a dosing pump and 2 part? You plan on having a bunch of sps? Or? If you just trying to keep params stable, salt mix is way cheaper just do water changes. Sorry if I dont remember you having alot of coral. :spin1:

[Mstark11]

No I don't have any coral, yet. I thought I needed 2-part dosing to keep corals? I wanted to make sure i had enough calc and mag to keep corals before i bought any.

[reefaluva]

In my experience unless you have a bunch of sps or plan to. Dosing 2 part is a waste. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I do water changes every 1-2 weeks. My params are great. I also have 2 sps, and about 34 other corals. Now when they are full grown and not frags I dunno. But get you some buckets of reef crystals or some other good salt. Test and see, im sure you will be good. Unless you get bad salt I have had that happen before.=) What are you planning to start off with?

[Mstark11]

Acans, and candy canes, and maybe a torch.

[mitchellmoto]

Don't waste your money. You certainly will not need this for some time. You should be just fine with water changes until you get a lot of corals. A dosing pump can be used for dosing anything not just two part. Use the money for coral or some other equipment.

[Mstark11]

Well, that's good to know then. (: I'll be ordering up some corals then asap!

[mitchellmoto]

Oh exciting, where are you odering from. I've been thinking of getting something small for my tank?

[Mstark11]

I was thinking of just going down to aqua life for some frags. Last time we were out there they didn't look bad at all.

[mitchellmoto]

Be careful. Ive never purchased from there but I thought alot of pieces looked bleached out during that last meeting. Try and stay away from lightly colored pieces and look for flatworms. I haven't found any stores in el paso that don't have them in at least one tank.

[reefaluva]

Do dip all corals, I have some dip if you need to borrow. I purchased all frags from saltcritters have got nothing but excellent product. Cheapest frags I have seen if you wait till he does free shipping its even better. I do need fish, since our town sucks. lol If you guys ordering anything will def jump in to get some fish.

[reefaluva]

Also if you need some red gracleria sp? Have a bunch. 10 dolla a stem. lol jk.

[Mstark11]

I wouldn't mind setting up an order for Salty critters. They have a torch and I want a torch.

[reefaluva]

Just made a order;( but tonight at 10 our time huge sale. Go on saltcritters Facebook. Prob can get free ship or money off...

[Mstark11]

My reef to yours has free shipping $ 125+. Never ordered from them but heard good things. they have a few nice Galaxias, but no Torch though. I don't know where you would want to get livestock.

[Mstark11]

Well, after driving through iced over roads for nearly 3 hours and fish tailing across an overpass at 10 mph, I got my coral! A green torch with pink tips, and a frag with a colony of orange zoas and an orange ric.

I also have a ton of cheato if anyone needs some. I didn't know how much Cheato I would get for 10$ until after she bagged it up.

[Mstark11]

(: they're starting to open up.

[Mstark11]

Zoas are doing great.

Ric is still discolored on the one side. I pushed him up and he shrunk up, so i put him towards the bottom and he's opened back up.

Torch is still very upset, tried to target mysis and he opened his mouth right up but he's still retracted.

[Mstark11]

Double post.

[Mstark11]

Lost the torch. All I have left of him is a half-empty skeleton full of brown sludge.:sad1:

[Mstark11]

Uhg FINALLY. Went to Aqualife in el paso today, wanted to get some corals. Was unimpressed with their bubble algae and sponges, so I got clowns instead. (:

[mitchellmoto]

Hey it is best to get quality items rather than settling. And don't fret on the coral I would say it was doomed before you got it. All the other heads looked like they had recently died as the skeleton was still pretty white so what ever got to them I would say already did it business on the last head..

[Mstark11]

): Angelfish is gone, and by gone, I mean he's disappeared entirely, without a trace. Saddest thing that has ever happened to me. He looked fine last night, fat, happy and swimming around like normal.

Only 2 guesses are he jumped and the cat found him and ate him (there's no way our cat could have jumped on the tank and snatched him, he can barely jump 3 feet up and he doesn't have claws)

Or he died and the small CUC I have picked him off before I noticed.

[mitchellmoto]

I doubt the CUC ate him, I'd bet he is carpet surfing or died wedged in the rockwork. Where are you getting your fish from?

[Mstark11]

Yea, we found him yesterday on the very bottom under a rock, had to wait all day just for him to float off so i could reach him to scoop him out. Oddly enough, I got him from fish n' phipps, and my fox (who is now incredibly heartbreaking, sitting in the back corner where the angel died all camo'ed up) and pair of clowns I got from Aqualife in Paso.

[mitchellmoto]

How did all the corals fair???

[Mstark11]

Very well, even the kenya. (: