Acclimate fish with copper already dosed?

[kenith]

I am picking up my achilles in a couple of days. He's doing well in the lfs and they run copper, but a low dose of it. Should my copper already be at the recommended strength when I bring him home, or do I ramp up the copper dose after acclimation? Some of the other fish show scratching, so I will be doing a full copper treatment before he heads to the display. Sorry if this question has been asked already.... first time doing copper :)

BTW- I'm using cupramine.

[geaux xman]

I would probably transfer him to a QT predosed at .25ppm Cupramine. Then after a couple days ramp it up to .50ppm if the AT takes the transfer well and continues to eat well.

I find AT responds very well to cupramine.

[kenith]

Thanks... I will keep it low dose and if all looks well, then I will continue with treatment. He is eating pellets and mysis at the lfs.

[Osteopth]

If your other fish are scratching, you have to treat them all or he will get Ich once he goes in the display. So you can either treat the whole tank with copper or move all of your fish to a hospital tank.

I used copper to treat all of my fish and then I left my display fallow (no fish, just corals and inverts) for 13 weeks. Since then I have used the transfer method before adding new fish. No sign of ICH even with my new Achilles Tang (notorious for Ich).<br />
<br />
Since I started using the transfer method I have thought that the safest way to treat affected fish would be to transfer them between two fully equipped large containers (30-40 gallon tubs) every 2-3 days, drying the containers, air stones, PVC hiding tubes and heaters in between. It avoids the stress of copper and hypo, and fish can be easily caught in a clear container with little stress (like at your LFS). Each transfer leaves the fish with less spots and no chance of reinfection. Theoretically they should be clean after 7 days, but I'd continue transferring for 12-14 days to be safe. Search and read about the transfer method, it works and it's awesome!


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[snorvich]

Be very careful about acquiring fish from any LFS running a non-therapeutic dosage of copper. It can mask oodinium.

[MrTuskfish]

If your fish are scratching, I sure wouldn't bring an Achilles (of all fish) home until you have eliminated the parasite. If there are parasites in your DT; they need to be treated in a QT/HT while your DT stays fishless 9+ weeks. Assuming you have parasites, introducing an Achilles, (or new new fish) at this time is a very bad idea. Eliminating parasites has to be a priority.

[kenith]

Be very careful about acquiring fish from any LFS running a non-therapeutic dosage of copper. It can mask oodinium.

I will look into this... thanks.

[kenith]

sorry for the wording guys... the achilles is housed with several other tangs and one of the hippos is rubbing the rocks. The achilles will sit in the qt at full copper concentration 4 weeks, then observed until he moves into his own shallow reef tank.

My dt does have ich, though no fish shows any signs of it (hippo had it a couple times some months ago). I will be going through a livestock change and tank fallow for at least 10 weeks.

When all is said and done, the achilles will be the first fish back into the main dt...

[kenith]

If your other fish are scratching, you have to treat them all or he will get Ich once he goes in the display. So you can either treat the whole tank with copper or move all of your fish to a hospital tank.

I used copper to treat all of my fish and then I left my display fallow (no fish, just corals and inverts) for 13 weeks. Since then I have used the transfer method before adding new fish. No sign of ICH even with my new Achilles Tang (notorious for Ich).<br />
<br />
Since I started using the transfer method I have thought that the safest way to treat affected fish would be to transfer them between two fully equipped large containers (30-40 gallon tubs) every 2-3 days, drying the containers, air stones, PVC hiding tubes and heaters in between. It avoids the stress of copper and hypo, and fish can be easily caught in a clear container with little stress (like at your LFS). Each transfer leaves the fish with less spots and no chance of reinfection. Theoretically they should be clean after 7 days, but I'd continue transferring for 12-14 days to be safe. Search and read about the transfer method, it works and it's awesome!


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I read about full thread on tank transfer and would like to give it a try someday. I currently have a dt already setup with copper at .25.... I will give this a shot and hope for the best.

[MrTuskfish]

I read about full thread on tank transfer and would like to give it a try someday. I currently have a dt already setup with copper at .25.... I will give this a shot and hope for the best.

I've used copper for many years with all new fish and have real confidence in the stuff. However; I've become sold on tank-transfer. Its easy and idiot-proof.

[kenith]

I've used copper for many years with all new fish and have real confidence in the stuff. However; I've become sold on tank-transfer. Its easy and idiot-proof.

I've been reading lots about the tank transfer method- I will be getting a yellow belly regal soon and would like to try it out. How do you deal with water quality and feeding? It usually takes a couple of days for most fish to start eating... By that time, it's time to catch him and spook him all over again- also what size tanks do you use? Tia

[snorvich]

I've been reading lots about the tank transfer method- I will be getting a yellow belly regal soon and would like to try it out. How do you deal with water quality and feeding? It usually takes a couple of days for most fish to start eating... By that time, it's time to catch him and spook him all over again- also what size tanks do you use? Tia

Fish start eating much more quickly in a tank by themselves. Using transparent tupperware or equivalent to catch fish does not spook them. I personally use 20 gallon tanks but people use all sorts of containers.

[kenith]

Fish start eating much more quickly in a tank by themselves. Using transparent tupperware or equivalent to catch fish does not spook them. I personally use 20 gallon tanks but people use all sorts of containers.


Thanks- what about filtration? Hob filter, carbon, air stone?

[snorvich]

Thanks- what about filtration? Hob filter, carbon, air stone?

Air stone would be great. Seachem ammonia alert is a good idea.

[kenith]

Air stone would be great. Seachem ammonia alert is a good idea.

Too bad my achilles is doing copper, well he came from a copper tank in the lfs, otherwise I'd try the tt method on him.

I have the seachem amonia alert now. Any idea whether that can be sanitized or does it need to be replaced each transfer?

[snorvich]

Too bad my achilles is doing copper, well he came from a copper tank in the lfs, otherwise I'd try the tt method on him.

I have the seachem amonia alert now. Any idea whether that can be sanitized or does it need to be replaced each transfer?

They are cheap, I just use new ones. But if you have copper in the tank, you can NOT use an ammonia nullifier.

[tmz]

Low doses of copper are a problem,imo. Some ich , can be aided in developing a resistance to copper when exposed to non lethal doses.

I 'm a big fan of tank transfer for prevention and treatment of crytocaryon irritans. Works very well for me.

Once you dose copper to the display you can't the rock and substrate. As noted leaving the tank without fish for 72 days will clear out the ich.

[snorvich]

Low doses of copper are a problem,imo. Some ich , can be aided in developing a resistance to copper when exposed to non lethal doses.



And, worse, non therapeutic doses of copper can mask oodinium. I have seen it happen many times.

[kenith]

Thanks for input guys. I have the copper level at .25 and he's eating both nori and pellets. One very important question....

How important is the 0.5 mg/l of copper? The salifert test seems okay, but dictates variable coloring between the .25 and .50. What of it's say .40?

[geaux xman]

yes differentiating between .25-.50ppm cupramine can be difficult no matter which test kit.

if you dosed following the directions for .25ppm(1ml/10gal), it should be fairly accurate at .25ppm. especially if you do not have rocks/sand absorbing the copper.

i run a 29g QT. if i ever have doubts of what my copper level is at, I just do a 5-10g WC with new SW that is dosed at .5ppm. Doing so, you wont run a risk of overdosing the fish.

Either that or I add another 1ml shot of cupramine which is equivalent to +.08ppm(for my QT tank). For a tang or angel, I feel comfortable with doing that, not for a butterfly, anthias, etc.

I've put two achilles(3" and 4", at separate times) thru 3 weeks of .5ppm cupramine without issue. a PBT and a Blue Hippo too.

[kenith]

yes differentiating between .25-.50ppm cupramine can be difficult no matter which test kit.

if you dosed following the directions for .25ppm(1ml/10gal), it should be fairly accurate at .25ppm. especially if you do not have rocks/sand absorbing the copper.

i run a 29g QT. if i ever have doubts of what my copper level is at, I just do a 5-10g WC with new SW that is dosed at .5ppm. Doing so, you wont run a risk of overdosing the fish.

Either that or I add another 1ml shot of cupramine which is equivalent to +.08ppm(for my QT tank). For a tang or angel, I feel comfortable with doing that, not for a butterfly, anthias, etc.

I've put two achilles(3" and 4", at separate times) thru 3 weeks of .5ppm cupramine without issue. a PBT and a Blue Hippo too.


Great to hear your achilles did well without trouble. The test kit is reading closer to .50, but not quite there. I have been counting the doses in both drops and ml. Question is, what is the minimum effective copper dose to eradicate ich?

[geaux xman]

Theres a bunch of old literature between different guys with varying answers. The highest I've seen is .30ppm required. Sometimes ich doesnt follow the rules, thats why some do 4 weeks. The directions on the bottle says 14 days, but if you call Seachem support, they will suggest 21 days.


http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php
Andrews et al, 1988: 0.15-0.30 mg/l
Bassleer, 1996: 0.25-0.30 mg/l
Gratzek et al, 1992: 0.115-0.18 mg/l
Noga, 2000: 0.15-0.20 mg/l
Untergasser, 1989: 0.15-0.20 mg/l*


Seachem:
Cupramine™ eradicates Oodinium and Ich at 0.1–0.2
mg/L, Cryptocaryon at 0.25–0.35 mg/L, Trematodes and other
parasites at 0.4–0.5 mg/L. With a 10–14 day exposure at 0.4 mg/L
most infestations will be eradicated and secondary bacterial and
fungal infections will be controlled.

[kenith]

Thanks geaux xman. I have dosed to .50 mg/l or at least what looks like .50 on the salifert. It's definitely well enough above .25

This is the fourth day the achilles has been in qt at at least .25. I noticed a few large spots on him today, where as the had none/very small spots before. Is this normal prior to seeing the copper take full effect on the tomite stage? He's eating well and swimming very normally.

[dunc101]

Thanks geaux xman. I have dosed to .50 mg/l or at least what looks like .50 on the salifert. It's definitely well enough above .25

This is the fourth day the achilles has been in qt at at least .25. I noticed a few large spots on him today, where as the had none/very small spots before. Is this normal prior to seeing the copper take full effect on the tomite stage? He's eating well and swimming very normally.

Yes. Since this is only day 4, you are probably seeing some of the affects of the ich that was already there. The cryptocaryon can live on its host from 3-7 days and the copper only kills ich in it's free floating stage.

[tmz]

I don't know what you mean by large spots. A picture would help.

[kenith]

Thanks dunc101-


Tmz-definitely ich spots. Large grain salt- they must have fallen off last night as they are gone and he's eating like a pig.

[geaux xman]

Its just whatever stage the ich's life cycle is at. All the ich on the fish isnt at the same stage of their life cycle, so thats why sometimes you see it comes and goes(visibly) on the fish.

So long the fish is eating well, you're fine. Its just sometimes the fish appetite suffers really badly from copper, then treating the fish can be a real hassle.

I would shoot for 4 weeks from the last time you saw spots to be safe. 3 weeks minimum.

[kenith]

Thanks all!

First copper treatment is working well, though he seems to be losing a little bit of weight. He is eating like a PIG! I am trying not to over feed to keep the prameters in check, though each of his 3 pellet feedings are consumed entirely. I also do a 3"x3" nori that's pecked at throughout the day.

[MrTuskfish]

Nutrition is vital for any sick fish. I always feed as much as will be eaten, siphon excess. When/if WCs are needed, be sure new water tests the same for Cu as the QT.

[geaux xman]

try feeding PE mysis. even my smaller Achilles(~3") will swallow down PE mysis.