What is happening to my CORAL!!

[NewfieReef]

Okay, so I am in a BIG panic because I cannot figure out what is happening to my coral. My chemistry has not changed and is very good. I thought I may have a problem with my testing kit so I took a sample down to my LFS and they said everything was great.

I have a 55gal tank. I run 4 T-5HO on it. 1 Atinic, 1 6,700K and 2 10,000K.

1 atinic & 1 10,000 K bulb on 8h a day. The other two are on only for 3h a day.

My bulbs are new. I change one bulb about every two months.... all have been changed in the last 2 months to make sure it was not a problem with light....

I am trying to post pictures...

[Psirex]

bleaching?

[bellis31]

How long have those corals been in the tank under those lights? It looks like they are bleaching from to much light. Try lowering one of them to the bottom in the sand and see how it reacts.

[sponger0]

Yeah thats bleaching. And if you changed some bulbs that sounds likely if you arent cuttign back the photo period.

Why are you changing a bulb every 2 months? That seems too quick for a bulb to burn out...let alone costly

[NewfieReef]

okay I thought it was blacking too but I can't seem to fix it. I tried not running the one fixture with the two daylight bulbs in it... made no difference... I did this for about three weeks. The corals use to be in the sand when this started and I moved them up slightly....

[NewfieReef]

Also I change one bulb every 2 months translates into a bulb being 8 months old when it is changed.....

[sponger0]

You would ne better off changing all bulbs at once and when you do shorten the photoperiod. They are trying to adjust to the new bulb.

When you do this, the light spectrum changes and the corals have to adjust to the light.

[NewfieReef]

The temperature in the tank is 84 BTW...


What do you think I should shorten the photoperiod too? suggestions

How long before I should notice some recover in my corals?

John

[sponger0]

There could potentially be another problem. The temp is a bit high. Most people dont have their tank over 82 degrees. Mine stays a constant 80 all year round.

But I would cut back to 4 or no longer than 6 hours if you are going to keep doing your bulbs that way. I still think you should change the bulbs all at once. That way you only have to acclimate them to the bulbs once a year.

They could take up to a month to recover and look normal again

[NewfieReef]

Cool, well I will cut back to 6 hours and start changing my bulbs all at once....

Hopefully that work, I am willing to try anything!

[sponger0]

Best of luck

[sirreal63]

I don't think it is a light issue, looking at the mushrooms right next to the bleached ones they are fully expanded, and they don't normally do that under light strong enough to bleach. What are the actual water parameters and how were they tested?
Alk
Calcium
Mag
Po4
No3
Salinity

[sirreal63]

I don't think it is a light issue, looking at the mushrooms right next to the bleached ones they are fully expanded, and they don't normally do that under light strong enough to bleach. What are the actual water parameters and how were they tested?
Alk
Calcium
Mag
Po4
No3
Salinity

[atlantiscoral]

Def. work on getting that temp down. I agree that it doesn't appear to be a lighting issue, at least not solely.

Keep this is mind... a 2 degree temp. fluctuation wiped out a huge section of the reef in the Fiji islands believed to be caused by deforestation of their mangroves tree's... Temp. plays a MAJOR role in the health of corals and inverts...

[kissman]

yep if you have a sump buy a fan and have it blow across the water, it will bring the temp down a few degress

[marlinman86]

yep if you have a sump buy a fan and have it blow across the water, it will bring the temp down a few degress

Or if you don't want to deal with the fan and evaporation long term then invest in a chiller with a temp control, then you never have to worry about temp again. Ur system is big enough to justify one, I have a nuvo 38 and my fan evaporates like 1/2 a gallon or more in 24hrs time in mine

[Reefmedic79]

Bleaching can take months to correct itself.

Like others have mentioned your temp is a high. Knowing your water parameters can help us determine a plan of action for you.

[NewfieReef]

No Sump, I have a heater in there that is set to 84, I could easily turn it down to 82/80. My tank has always been 84 with no issue in the past....

[NewfieReef]

SG - 1.026 - this may seem high to some people but I have always kept my tank at 1.026
Calcium - 560
Ph - 8.0/8.2
NO3 - 0
Phosphate - 0 - 0.25

Tested using API test kit and by my LFS

[frankyrivera]

Calcium is high alk might be off too

[jprime84]

If its bleaching from the light you can try and raise the light a bit as well.

[Joe0813]

i think its a bunch of different things going on here.... temp is to high, calc is high and the lightening

[sirreal63]

How is the SG measured? The temp isn't really high, but I might lower it a little just in case.

[D-Nak]

Calcium is high alk might be off too

+1. I'd be curious to see what your all is too. How did you get your calcium so high?

[PAnanoguy]

Have you added Mag? Alot of it? are you dosing with any chemicals atm? personally I cant believe that frogspawn is alive considering how clear/white it is. Palys and shrooms look good though. Im not sure whats going on here. I agree that the temp is a little high. Calcium is high too. Recovery happens slowly so if I were you Id stop everything and just do 10% water changes once or twice a week and be patient. Nothing is dead yet so things may come back around in time.

[katpurdy]

are you feeding the lps? try adding some food to the tank and see what happens...

[sslak]

My frogspawn did that when I had a thermostat go bad and my temp was too high.

You may think 84 is just a "little high", but what are you using to get that temp reading? If your thermometer is off you may be in the low 90's and not even realize it.

[tmz]

Alk? . The calcium won't do that at 560ppm and should not be an issue. . Low alk can be a problem.Wha t is it? 1.026 is a very fine sg. Temp spikes can cause bleaching. The discoma which are thriving need less light than the bleaching corals. Personally, I think there is a shortage of light for the others. 8 hours of 108 watts of T 5 with an addition 108 for 3 hours is not much.

[coralsnaked]

Seems Sirreal63 is giving the best advise here. Dont go changing a bunch of parameters at once. IE lighting, temp ect... finish testing for your trace elements and I would suggest determining if you have a copper source. Where is your water coming from? What trace componets do your salts and other additives have. Get some analysis on these items. My suggestion is do your research completely before you change anything ever! Find out what each troubled coral craves and test those elements...

[sirreal63]

I agree with Tom, they are not getting too much light, probably the opposite but should be ok if the water parameters are correct. The SG concerns me, because I have seen people use a hydrometer and later found out that their corals were dieing because the tank was at 1.03 or higher and never realized it until there were issues. Not knowing the alk doesn't help, and a combination of factors can lead to this. The temp is not a problem with a healthy tank, this one is not healthy and the temp is another contributing cause, but not by itself.

[coralsnaked]

Lighting is not really a problem with LPS. They can successfully be kept in situations were lighting is only 50watts, but they should be no more than eight inches below the surface. Also temp of 84 wont work for me but are these LPS acclamated to this temp? Sounds like they are. So...what else could be happening? If trace elements are not the problem and testing for this is too easy to miss!!! And here is a H U G E suggestion. Dont miss the iodine. Then move on to next set of parameters. Is tank too sterile for LPS? Hummm... theres an idea. Or can there be a war going on in the tank? We know or should know decolorization can be a signal there is chemical warefare going on. Also if polyos are not opening or reduction in growth rate. You got to remember if corals get hungry, they get aggressive just like any other animal. This means you can see delayed warefare when they become hungry. This is one reason I take a holistic approach to "reefing". corals-naked I personally dont like skimming. What will skimming take out from the water? Proteins. What are we feeding our LPS? Proteins. Are you skimming? If so you better be feeding and you must do it when they want it. Many LPS will change their feeding habits and extend during day periods if theyhave been trained. But really they normally do not require feeding as they depend on their symbiotic relationship with the zooxanthellae, however...to feed properly you must observe first and change YOUR feeding habits if needed. If your skimming feed phyto daily to keep trace amounts of this in H2O and target feed Mysis with powerheads off. And speaking of power heads this too can make or break LPS keep the direct flow off of them. They prefer gentle currents. This last thing I would remind you of is although LPS are relatively easy to care for they are known to do well and then suddenly die for some unknown reason.

[NewfieReef]

I use a instant ocean hydrometer. It is cleaned with freshwater before and after every test.

I change 10gal of water once a week and have done that for the last to years. A lot of people think this is a lot to change, but IMO, it is the best way to keep healthy coral.

[D-Nak]

And here is a H U G E suggestion. Dont miss the iodine. Then move on to next set of parameters. Is tank too sterile for LPS? Hummm... theres an idea.

I don't think iodine is an issue here. Sounds like he's doing normal water changes so there should be more than enough. Most people don't even test for it and have very successful tanks. Waste of money to buy a test kit IMO. The only time I've heard iodine to be of any use is with anemones. I dose some iodine for my gigantea. Also, I don't think any tank with fish in it can be too sterile.

I use a instant ocean hydrometer. It is cleaned with freshwater before and after every test.

I change 10gal of water once a week and have done that for the last to years. A lot of people think this is a lot to change, but IMO, it is the best way to keep healthy coral.

I think you should invest in a refractometer. They're not expensive and are FAR are more accurate than any float-type hydrometer. I only use those when mixing up salt water to get a rough idea of where I'm at.

I think we need to focus on what's really happening here -- bleaching (death of zooxanthellae). Bleaching is not directly caused by lack of food or too many organics in the water, but other factors.

Can you provide us with a complete rundown of your parameters? Especially Alk and PO. I personally think one or more parameters are out of whack, and combined with the other potential stressors are killing the zooxanthellae.

[sirreal63]

Before you do anything, have the SG checked with a refractometer, a hydometer is more likely to be off than you may realize. I watched a good friend beat her head against the wall because her corals were dieing and the only real issue was her SG.

[bennr]

My two cents......
84 temp is not terribly high and the lps you have should be ok. I have seen high temps like yours affect zoas and Pallys but not usually lps like your own. However, I do not understand why you are keeping that temp so high by using a heater to do so.....you are just wasting hydro IMO.....your tank would be fine anywhere between 78 and 82. The key is to keep the temp stable at one of those degrees. Second advice I can give you is to never trust Lfs ...... Especially if they did not point out your unneccessary high temp, high calcium, and extremely inaccurate use of a hydrometer. These are immediate red flags to not trust another thing they say. My best guess is that one of your params is out of whack......I doubt it is actually a temp or calcium issue. However, your high calcium could mean a low alk param and I did not see where you are mentioning your alk levels. I would also suggest you purchase a refractometer as well. IMO the biggest red flag is that you are doing lots of water changes but yet somehow have your calcium much higher than normal. This could very well mean that you are actually adding more salt to the mix than required and therefore getting a higher sg as well because of the bad hydrometer. I would strongly suggest you have your major params checked by a trustworthy source.....this is sg, nitrate, po4, alk, calcium, mag, and temp. Good luck and don't give up.....this is all part of the reefing experience! The more problems you encounter and overcome, the wiser you will become!

[sponger0]

Temp can very much be a problem. I wasnt watching mine with the weather changes and my house was getting too cold that my heater couldnt keep up with it. I lose 4 corals due to it. So saying temp cant be an issue is not a valid statement.

[atlantiscoral]

Coralsnaked is correct however, if these corals have been acclimated, chances are the temp alone is not going to be the problem.

[bennr]

Temp can very much be a problem. I wasnt watching mine with the weather changes and my house was getting too cold that my heater couldnt keep up with it. I lose 4 corals due to it. So saying temp cant be an issue is not a valid statement.

I hope this reply was not directed at me...... If so, then please re-read my reply.

[bennr]

I think most of us were interested to know what the alk param is.......

[sponger0]

I hope this reply was not directed at me...... If so, then please re-read my reply.

This was directed at anyone that says temp cant be an issue. I lost 3 corals due to temp problems and everything thing else was right on point for water parms.

[sirreal63]

Temp can be an issue when it gets beyond 2 degrees over or below what the corals are acclimated to. If the daily temp cycle is 78 to 82 and the temp gets as little a 2 degrees outside of that range then stress can happen. This is one of the reasons to allow a daily fluctuation of temps, it gives you more room for error. The OP has stated that his corals are acclimated to the temp, so it may or may not be a contributing factor.

[tmz]

A few thoughts:

Adequate lighting is important for any autotrophic coral, very much so for many lps. I'd suggest a lighting cylce of 9 hours for two bulbs overlaid with 7 for the other two on your t 5 unit.

A refractometer or conductivity meter will give you more acccurate eadings on specific gravity. Generally, however, folks run into trouble with low sg not high sg. The average sg for the reefs is 1.0264. The Red sea corals live in sg exceeding 1.030 routinely.

Trace elements aren't necessary in a fed tank with water changes . Neither are minor element supplements like iodine or potassium.

Phytoplankton are a useful for pods and filter feeders. LPs like zooplankton .

Skimming is a plus for several reasons. It removes organics which hold nitogen and phosphorous, some metals and organic carbon; all of which are harmful in excess. .

Skimming also provides aeration .


In nature corals experience and tolerate large temperature swings ,periodically. In aquariums if they are kept in a constant close tight range of temperature, a variation of a few degrees in a spike can be harmful as they may not have the proper clades of zooxanthelae to readily adjust.

"Bleaching" occurs when the coral is low on zooxanthelae.

Zooxanthelae produces organic carbon ( sugars) for the coral. Temps or excess lighting can increase the density of zooxanthelae as they overpopulate and/or overproduce, in these situations to a level where the zooxanthelae produces more oxygen than the coral can handle and/or the excess zooxanthelae competes with the coral for nutrients. At some point the excess zooxanthelae ,normaly a symbiont, becomes patogenic. Corals react by expelling the zooxanthelae which is brown in color leaving them with a bleached look and without their photosynthetic helper.

On the other hand ,too little light can inhibit zooxanthelae growth to a point where the coral is "bleached".

[jcw]

I just wanted to comment what a confusing controversial hobby this is...

High temp a problem not a problem

Elevated calc a problem not a problem

Lighting a problem not a problem

Too much light bleaches corals. Too little light bleaches corals.

Specific gravity measurements most agree that swing arm meters are inaccurate. Mine were more than .003 off.

Not knowing alk all seem to agree that that's problem

Everyone is sure they are doing things right?

I'm more confused than ever.

[bennr]

i just wanted to comment what a confusing controversial hobby this is...

High temp a problem not a problem

elevated calc a problem not a problem

lighting a problem not a problem

too much light bleaches corals. Too little light bleaches corals.

Specific gravity measurements most agree that swing arm meters are inaccurate. Mine were more than .003 off.

Not knowing alk all seem to agree that that's problem

everyone is sure they are doing things right?

I'm more confused than ever.

+1

[sirreal63]

Lack of input from the OP doesn't make it easier. :-)

[bennr]

This was directed at anyone that says temp cant be an issue. I lost 3 corals due to temp problems and everything thing else was right on point for water parms.

Ok. Well for the record I did not say temp cannot be an issue. In fact I recommended that temp is reduced and kept constant at a value between 78 to 82. I even expressed my own poor experience with higher temps resulting in poor growth from my zoas and Pallys. I was able to get a chiller and correct this issue fairly quickly (within a couple months) and by doing so I now have better results from my zoas and Pallys and likely would have eventually seen issues with more coral if left over time. I still find it bizarre that the temp was kept at 84 by using a heater......interested to know where or who told you to do this....
Also, if my calcium was at almost 600ppm I would immediately be interested in knowing my alk and mag because although 600 may not be life threatening to your reef, this is not a normal value and it will affect other params as well.

[bennr]

Lack of input from the OP doesn't make it easier. :-)

Yea no kidding...... Hope they are still reading all this haha

[sponger0]

Ok. Well for the record I did not say temp cannot be an issue. In fact I recommended that temp is reduced and kept constant at a value between 78 to 82. I even expressed my own poor experience with higher temps resulting in poor growth from my zoas and Pallys. I was able to get a chiller and correct this issue fairly quickly (within a couple months) and by doing so I now have better results from my zoas and Pallys and likely would have eventually seen issues with more coral if left over time. I still find it bizarre that the temp was kept at 84 by using a heater......interested to know where or who told you to do this....
Also, if my calcium was at almost 600ppm I would immediately be interested in knowing my alk and mag because although 600 may not be life threatening to your reef, this is not a normal value and it will affect other params as well.

I agree with you 100% here

[tmz]

There is no reason not to keep corals at 84 degrees, if that's accurate and relatively constant as a high point and cooler water animals are not being kept. FWIW, I prefer 78 to 80 but many go higher.
What doesn't seem to be clear to folks is that it's the spikes in temperature that harm them when they are not used to them . If the OP has a tank at 80 or so consistently , a spike to 84, assuming accurate measurement could easily cause bleaching ;maybe even 82 as it will drive higher metabolic rates. On a reef temp can vary 5 to 10 degrees ,the corals are fine as long as it stays in the mid 80s or mid 70s. That's because they have incorporated types(clades) of zooxanthelae that can deal with that variance. In a reef tank with regular temp swings the tolerance for temp variance will broaden.. Most,who keep reef tanks ,however, keep relatively stable temps and then a shift of just a couple of degrees can be harmful. There are numerous threads with lot's of detail on temperature. I sugest searching for them and reading them. There are also a number of studies out there now on the effects of higher temperatures on reefs as part of the climate change inquiries.
the point is there are choices each reefkeeper can make for specific reasons like the home temperature environment, the degree of grwoth disired and the types of animals one chooses to keep.

Lighting doesn't cause bleaching. it's the absence of zooxanthelae that causes bleaching. Too much or too little light can cause zooxanthelae to over proliferate and be expelled with too much light or wane without being expelled with too little light.

Calcium at 560ppm will not affect other parameters significantly. I've run my tanks in the 500to 550ppm range for years . I do prefer it as a matter of form in the mid 400s but the 500s don't harm things. Many salt mixes start with high calcium Calcium is a problem when there isn't enough, say less than 380ppm.
Alkalinity is a sensitive issue and needs more frequent monitoring than calcium,ime. if it's low ,ie, below 7dkh corals may not be able to calcify properly. It is almost always on my list of suspects for coral stress along with temperature spikes, salinity and high nutrients.
If alk it's overdosed precipitation will occur.

Alk depletes faster than calcium or magnesium since there is less of it and it is consumed more quickly. There is about 130 ppm carbonate alkalinity in seawater vs 400 ppm calcium and 1300ppm magnesium. As calcium and carbonate join to form calcium carbonate, skeletal mass or abiotic precipitant, 50 ppm(2.8 dkh /1meq/l ) of alkalinity is used for every 20ppm of calcium. Balanced 2 part supplements , calcium hydroxide ( kalk) and/or dissolving aragonite in a calcium reactor provide calcium and alk in those same proportions.
Low alk can lead to high calcium and coral stress since without an adequate amount calcification will not occur.

[jcw]

Thanks that helps!

There is no reason not to keep corals at 84 degrees, if that's accurate and relatively constant as a high point and cooler water animals are not being kept. FWIW, I prefer 78 to 80 but many go higher.
What doesn't seem to be clear to folks is that it's the spikes in temperature that harm them when they are not used to them . If the OP has a tank at 80 or so consistently , a spike to 84, assuming accurate measurement could easily cause bleaching ;maybe even 82 as it will drive higher metabolic rates. On a reef temp can vary 5 to 10 degrees ,the corals are fine as long as it stays in the mid 80s or mid 70s. That's because they have incorporated types(clades) of zooxanthelae that can deal with that variance. In a reef tank with regular temp swings the tolerance for temp variance will broaden.. Most,who keep reef tanks ,however, keep relatively stable temps and then a shift of just a couple of degrees can be harmful. There are numerous threads with lot's of detail on temperature. I sugest searching for them and reading them. There are also a number of studies out there now on the effects of higher temperatures on reefs as part of the climate change inquiries.
the point is there are choices each reefkeeper can make for specific reasons like the home temperature environment, the degree of grwoth disired and the types of animals one chooses to keep.

Lighting doesn't cause bleaching. it's the absence of zooxanthelae that causes bleaching. Too much or too little light can cause zooxanthelae to over proliferate and be expelled with too much light or wane without being expelled with too little light.

Calcium at 560ppm will not affect other parameters significantly. I've run my tanks in the 500to 550ppm range for years . I do prefer it as a matter of form in the mid 400s but the 500s don't harm things. Many salt mixes start with high calcium Calcium is a problem when there isn't enough, say less than 380ppm.
Alkalinity is a sensitive issue and needs more frequent monitoring than calcium,ime. if it's low ,ie, below 7dkh corals may not be able to calcify properly. It is almost always on my list of suspects for coral stress along with temperature spikes, salinity and high nutrients.
If alk it's overdosed precipitation will occur.

Alk depletes faster than calcium or magnesium since there is less of it and it is consumed more quickly. There is about 130 ppm carbonate alkalinity in seawater vs 400 ppm calcium and 1300ppm magnesium. As calcium and carbonate join to form calcium carbonate, skeletal mass or abiotic precipitant, 50 ppm(2.8 dkh /1meq/l ) of alkalinity is used for every 20ppm of calcium. Balanced 2 part supplements , calcium hydroxide ( kalk) and/or dissolving aragonite in a calcium reactor provide calcium and alk in those same proportions.
Low alk can lead to high calcium and coral stress since without an adequate amount calcification will not occur.

[Fatrob164]

My thoughts... I had a hydrometer that was way off like .06 and with the high calcium yours might be as well. Also by the sounds of it I'm guessing you are just going off the temp setting on your heater? Those can be way off I would suggest getting a refractometer and a thermometer.

[tmz]

You are welcome.