Phos 0 ?, SPS died, new tank syndrome?

[andyrm66]

New tank that is about 8 months old, rock out of another tank. A few months ago it was tested with low range handheld Hanna meter, it was about twice or 3 times the "noramal" level. Ran some GFO, decreased in half in short order, then half again then half again. Took GFO offline, and after 2 months of no GFO, it was in the low range of the desired range. Tested tonight and its zero, tested twice, zero both times.

When it was high, SPS was brown and LPS was doing good. Then ran GFO, LPS not so hot lost an acan, but SPS colored up. Within the last month I've have 3 or 4 SPS frags bleach/die completely, though LPS is doing pretty good. These SPS frags had been doing good regardless of color and now dead. Also a few weeks ago alk was down to 6.2 or 6.0 CA 320. This has since been corrected.

Tank has really never grew algae, clean glass every few weeks, maybe once a month. skimmer works good, minus a few overflows dumping a weeks worth of fish poo in the tank. Lightly stocked 100 gallon. Have a small cyno patch growing. Feed every two days.

I figured get alk and CA under control then see how everything does. Also switched lights. Had 400 watt XM and some corals were getting 800+ par on the sand bed, since moved to a more reasonable ATI 8x24. Tank is 36x36x18.

Overall thoughts?

[Meshmez]

sounds like you have had a lot of changes recently, including lighting change and a alk/cal change... all of which could make short work of SPS.

[vietnam]

look into a doser to help stablize the alk and cal. how often were you testing before and now?

[SPotter]

when you say that alk and ca were corrected....how was it corrected, what is the level now and how long did it take you to get to that level. The 400w mh was a lot of light for an 18" deep tank so its possible the sps were on their way out before the switch. Definitely agree you had a lot of changes to the system in a short period of time which is also contributing to the problem.

[jwoyshnar]

Ive had the same problem with using GFO. Ive tried it twice and the same thing both times.

[Crkbaby]

To my understanding alk swings are the hardest on sps maybe raised it to fast?

[andyrm66]

CA was raised by about 50 a day using CA Hydroxide, alk by baking soda, or 2 part solution 1. Alk, whenever I needed to adjust I would try to keep it under 1dkh a day, and usally spread that out, rather than all at once.

The sps bit it before the correction, after the GFO. I think perhaps, low parameters, too much light, all played a role.

The 400 is a lot, but I was also trying to cover 9 sq feet of tank. I had an XM200 which didnt put out enough light, and the 10k was way to much. Took par readings last night of the ATI PM, have anywhere from 150-300 on the sandbed, and on the rocks, anywhere from 150-800. I think this will be a lot better, and it looks a lot better.

[andyrm66]

Granted the SPS were growing pretty damn good with a fair amount of PO4 and that same light, then they nose dived.

[breon]

Following along having the same issue I stopped gfo for awhile

[andyrm66]

So to update, Acros all died. A pink millipora is biting it. But he undata and Sertosa are all growing like crazy. Acans are poping new heads. Acans that I thought were gonners are coming back. Had a bit of cyno, started GFO ago and cleaned up the sand bed. This seemed to help the cyno. However I still have quite the population of red flatworms, not AEFW just the annoying little red ones flatworm exit is supposed to kill. I really don't know whats going on. Getting the alk and CA stable helped Im sure. Still don't have to clean the glass but once a month, feeding minimal, yet had cyno and flatworms, both of which are common in a system with excess nutrients. Then I look at a candycane today and its got tissue recession going on WTH?
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/andyrm66/Sale/20120714_112921.jpg

[andyrm66]

Im all ears. Oh and let me add this, previous to this tank I had a 40b that had tons of issues growing corals, bout the tank used. Could never register copper, but then built this one from scratch. Only thing that xferd was rock and fish. Previous to that, had a biocube that grew awesome. While I had the 40B I changed everything I could think of salt, etc. RODI has some what new filters, no chlorimines here, Been running carbon for a bit as well.

So basically, acros die, candaycanes looks like butt, but now acans are thriving, whereas a few months ago in this tank they were shrinking and kicking the bucket. About the only thing I have left to change is get rid of the rock, tear down tank and start a new. I have QT setups that I can use for the fish and corals, but don't know what that's going to solve.

Rock is http://www.aquaroche.fr/gb/enpratique/dimensions/index.php and others seem to grow SPS without issue.
RODI is Air water ice, with their filters. Thing was I had that RODI when I had the biocube and everything grew great in there.

Only thing I can think of is rock picked up whatever was in the 40B and is slowly leaching it back out.

[andyrm66]

More tissue recession. No clue what's going on. You can see the flat worms on the skeleton, but not near the flesh.
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/andyrm66/Sale/20120714_185819.jpg
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/andyrm66/Sale/20120714_185738.jpg
http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/oo140/andyrm66/Sale/20120714_185856.jpg

[Jonathan76]

I think too much light - see how the candy canes are shrunk down? I think they are trying to minimize their surface area and reduce some of the byproducts of photosynthesis. How high are your lights? what bulbs?
In my tank it took me like 6 months to get my 6x54 sunpower in the right spot on a 75gal. I cooked everything for a while - finally I'm at about 6 in above waterline with bulbs that are over a year old.

Jon

[andyrm66]

Less par than when I had the 400. Light is 8 maybe 10 inches off the water.

[Zukizuri]

With you flatworm. Buy a six line wrasse. It will eat them all up. I have two tanks populated with flatworm and when i introduced one six line each tank. After two weeks no trace of them.

[divewsharks]

Can never be 100% sure, but you could have ultimately stripped the water column of PO4 to quickly. GFO has been known to do this, which is why when using it, you need to slowly ramp up to desired amount to keep your P04 at low levels in the tank.

[divewsharks]

With you flatworm. Buy a six line wrasse. It will eat them all up. I have two tanks populated with flatworm and when i introduced one six line each tank. After two weeks no trace of them.

Yes, but they can also become quite mean and bully fish, especially those introduced after them.

[andyrm66]

With you flatworm. Buy a six line wrasse. It will eat them all up. I have two tanks populated with flatworm and when i introduced one six line each tank. After two weeks no trace of them.

I thought of going that route however I have to have an 8 week Qt, Before I can add it to the DT.

they really seem to be more of a nuisance right now the root of the issue correct?

[andyrm66]

Can never be 100% sure, but you could have ultimately stripped the water column of PO4 to quickly. GFO has been known to do this, which is why when using it, you need to slowly ramp up to desired amount to keep your P04 at low levels in the tank.

the first time I started running it I Ramped up very slowly then second time, i was testing 0 but I had some cyno outbreak.
Testing is done with the low range Hana meter. Also, the corals were having issues before I started this round of gfo, so I think perhaps something else is to blame. Weird thing is my scans are growing like mad all off a sudden. The candy canes are worry some though. I did just order an aquarium water test panel aquamedic, see if that shows anything I'm missing.
Rodi is 0 TDs as of last night, mag is 1250.

[andyrm66]

Total phosphorus is 1 ppb or P04 = .003066. GFO has been off since yesterday.
Alk is 7.84. I aim for 8 but right I'm in between am and pm dose. Until I get dosing pumps.

[Jonathan76]

When I had that problem it seemed like it might have been a combo of too much light and low nutrients - I have always suspected there was some phenomenon related to the high altitude we live in - lower pressure above the water than at sea level - I don’t know, maybe nothing. If i remember right I was also seeing that tissue recession/necrosis in my candies (indestructible imo btw) when I was experimenting with vodka dosing a few years back - thats why I say nutrients/light penetration....Hmmmm....

Jon

[andyrm66]

Who knows, I was surprised to see it on candy canes, seems they are the last to go. Maybe I need to dirty up the water. Maybe I need more fish.

[andyrm66]

Test results are in from aquairumwatertesting.com
Alk, I expected to be a little low, water sample wak taken before pm dose of alk. Try to keep at 8, tested with Hanna meter.
CA, is way lower than what my Salifet (SP) test kit shows. It shows in the 400's. Might have another brand laying around I should double check with.
Copper is a bit concerning.
P04 with Hanna ULR last show 1 PPB, or about .003 PPM which is about as low as it can show (1). Not sure why such a discrepancy here
I have setosa and Undata in the tank that are doing very well right now. Acans are also doing very well.

Anyone else have input why Acros and and some other SPS lose flesh, and candy canes?
Water Test Summary

Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................ Good ......................................... 0.000
Nitrite (NO2) ................................ Good ......................................... 0.002
Nitrate (NO3) ............................... Good ............................................. 2.5
Phosphate (PO4) .......................... Good ........................................... 0.05
Silica (SiO2-3) ............................. Good ............................................. 0.2
Potassium (K) ...............................Low ............................................. 239
Calcium (Ca) see note below .........Low ............................................. 104
Molybdenum (Mo)......................... High.............................................. 0.2
Strontium (Sr) ............................. High............................................ 24.1
Magnesium (Mg) ...........................Low ........................................... 1088
Iodine (I¯) ................................... High............................................ 0.22
Copper (Cu++) ............................ High............................................ 0.05
Alkalinity (meq/L) ..........................Low ............................................ 2.40

[Stolireef]

Test results are in from aquairumwatertesting.com
Alk, I expected to be a little low, water sample wak taken before pm dose of alk. Try to keep at 8, tested with Hanna meter.
CA, is way lower than what my Salifet (SP) test kit shows. It shows in the 400's. Might have another brand laying around I should double check with.
Copper is a bit concerning.
P04 with Hanna ULR last show 1 PPB, or about .003 PPM which is about as low as it can show (1). Not sure why such a discrepancy here
I have setosa and Undata in the tank that are doing very well right now. Acans are also doing very well.

Anyone else have input why Acros and and some other SPS lose flesh, and candy canes?
Water Test Summary

Ammonia (NH3-4) ........................ Good ......................................... 0.000
Nitrite (NO2) ................................ Good ......................................... 0.002
Nitrate (NO3) ............................... Good ............................................. 2.5
Phosphate (PO4) .......................... Good ........................................... 0.05
Silica (SiO2-3) ............................. Good ............................................. 0.2
Potassium (K) ...............................Low ............................................. 239
Calcium (Ca) see note below .........Low ............................................. 104
Molybdenum (Mo)......................... High.............................................. 0.2
Strontium (Sr) ............................. High............................................ 24.1
Magnesium (Mg) ...........................Low ........................................... 1088
Iodine (I¯) ................................... High............................................ 0.22
Copper (Cu++) ............................ High............................................ 0.05
Alkalinity (meq/L) ..........................Low ............................................ 2.40

Just my 2 cents but your water chemistry is way off. Ca at 25% of 'normal', Alk about the same as Ca. Mg low. Detectable nitrites. Copper detectible (although I don't what a good range is). Whats your salinity? What's your average temp? Are you using any supplements? If so, what are they? Can't grow stuff if the water isn't pretty good.

[andyrm66]

Posted my results in the chem forum. I don't trust those results much. Mag was just tested at 1250 My salt has good levels of mag. 2 part is dosed. I agree that if those numbers were true, they'd be very concerning.

[jcw]

Copper killed the sps.

Kents carbon was contaminated. Several people lost everything. It was all over this board several months ago.

[andyrm66]

Ive never run kents carbon. I can't find anything that shows that amount ofCooper would do anything. still looking.

[jcw]

Ive never run kents carbon. I can't find anything that shows that amount ofCooper would do anything. still looking.

so you are ignoring the fact that the level of copper was reported as high?

the fact that copper in reef tank is associated with the very symptoms you are reporting?



my comment regarding kents carbon was just a suugestion of where it might have came from. the problem still exists that there is "high" levels of copper in your system.


good luck with your search... :crazy1:

[andyrm66]

No, not dismissing Copper could have played a role. If my math is correct I have about 50ppb, less than 30 is desirable. Added a bag of cuprasorb to the filter sock. See if that helps. Inverts have all been fine. Not sure if inverts or sps - acros are more sensitive to CU.

Copper is in EVERY reef tank, its just finding out what is too much.

[Buzz1329]

If you have high levels of phosphate, I'd recommend that you use GFO to gradually reduce it to as close to 0 as you can get. Once there, do not discontinue GFO. Continue to use it to keep phosphate as close to 0 as possible. The key is to consistently keep phosphate as low as possible. Which means you should never discontinue use of GFO. FWIW, here are the BRS instructions for using GFO:

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/Granular-Ferric-Oxide-GFO-Instructions

Good luck!

[andyrm66]

Buzz thanks for the tips. Did you see how low my P04 is? Pretty low regardless of what test right? Or am i off?