how much pickling lime can you get into solution?

[Neptunes World]

Everyone says to ad until it starts to fall out of solution but I do not think I have read when that happens. Has anyone experimented, especially with good ol Mrs Wages and found that "out of solution" magic point in a gallon of water?

[ajcanale]

It's pretty standard that 2 tsp of calcium hydroxide per gallon of pure water is a fully saturated solution, but I have found there to been undissolved residue at much lower rates, even below 1 tsp per gallon. Some have claimed this undissolved solution to be a bi-product of the mixture that needs to be discarded , while others claim that it is simply undissolved kalk. I toss it after every two or three refills.

[Neptunes World]

Okay, thanks. Hmmm, I wonder if Randy ever did a chemical analysis on the shmook at the bottom of the dosing barrel, lol?

[ajcanale]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-05/rhf/feature/index.php

Taking from his summary at the bottom, you could assume that when initially blending the limewater, the aeration of CO2 into the mix causes calcium carbonate to precipitate, eventually falling to the bottom as the so called gunk. Just a theory based on what he concluded.

[tmz]

Some of the slurry is calcium carbonate precipitant. Some is precipitated impurites. Some is precipitated magnesium. Some is undissoved calcium hydroxide if you dosed more than 2tsps per gallon. The calcium chloride will dissolve in the tank if dosed or in the reservoir if and when more water is added. None of the slurry should be dosed; only clear limewater. Full saturation is 2 tsps per gallon. There have been an number r of experiments and mesaurements over the years. The saturation level can be increased by up to 36%( ie,to 2.72 tsps oper gallon) by adding up to to 48ml of vinegar per gallon of fresh water. The vinegar will also add organic carbon to the tank which encourages bacterial growth.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Everyone says to ad until it starts to fall out of solution but I do not think I have read when that happens. Has anyone experimented, especially with good ol Mrs Wages and found that "out of solution" magic point in a gallon of water?the amount of calcium hydroxide that can dissolve into any given amount of water varies with the temperature of the water. Colder water can dissolve more pickling lime.

Wanna see something kewl?

Stir up a pot full of limewater. Now set it on your stove and heat it up.
Watch what happens.

[Neptunes World]

Wanna see something kewl?

Stir up a pot full of limewater. Now set it on your stove and heat it up.
Watch what happens.

I dunno, that sounds like one of my uncles "pull my finger" party tricks, lol. :D

[disc1]

I dunno, that sounds like one of my uncles "pull my finger" party tricks, lol. :D

:lol2:

the amount of calcium hydroxide that can dissolve into any given amount of water varies with the temperature of the water. Colder water can dissolve more pickling lime.

Wanna see something kewl?

Stir up a pot full of limewater. Now set it on your stove and heat it up.
Watch what happens.


Retrograde solubility. This is the same reason it is best to wait to heat up your salt mix until after all of the salt is dissolved.

[89Foxbody]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but how does this work with your ATO reservoir then? Won't the pump suck up some of the junk off the bottom and dump it into your tank? How do you avoid that?

[Neptunes World]

Set the pump or pickup up off the bottom with some PVC or something.

[89Foxbody]

I figured the current/vibration from the pump would mix up the gunk. I guess not.

[Neptunes World]

What do you have in there, a 2 stroke engine with a prop on it or what? Now the suction might pick up s little from the bottom but I would not think enough to make a worry.

[ajcanale]

What do you have in there, a 2 stroke engine with a prop on it or what? Now the suction might pick up s little from the bottom but I would not think enough to make a worry.

rofl :ape:

Limewater via ATO is usually dosed via dosing pump or very low flow rated pump... when properly elevated it's not enough to siphon it up

[tmz]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but how does this work with your ATO reservoir then? Won't the pump suck up some of the junk off the bottom and dump it into your tank? How do you avoid that?
Not a dumb question at all. Not only will it pick up the slurry but regular surface agitation will bring in CO2 which will precipitate the calcium hydroxide ultimately leaving your with sand and fresh water.

This is how I dose it FWIW:

I use a still reservoir( a brute garbage can with a lid). I mix 32 gallons of lime water at 2tsps per gallon plus a little extra,once week or so; 18 liters per day covers my top off for the 600 gallon system. Stirring is with a length of pvc pipe . The newly stirred lime water sits for 2 hours to let all the impurities and undissolved kalk settle to the bottom. Then a peristaltic pump on a timer for incremental dosing is turned on . A diaphram pump may be used as an alternative. The draw tube is set a few inches off the bottom, so no slurry is dosed ;only clear fully saturated lime water. The pump I use is a liter meter 3, I am happy with it . There are others that are less costly to choose from. With the liter meter the amount to be dosed per day is set , in my case 18 liters. Once the pump is turned on , the built in timer turns the pump on and off 150 times to dose 150 equal increments over the 24 hours. The lime water does not need restirirng as it will keep it's strength for a month or so in a covered but unsealed container if it is left still. Frequent agitation will move water at the surface and draw in CO2. The effluent tube delivers the 150 doses about 6 inches above the sump water line in a high flow area.

That was a post of mine from this current thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2191454

[Neptunes World]

regular surface agitation will bring in CO2 which will precipitate the calcium hydroxide ultimately leaving your with sand and fresh water.[/url]

Thats definitely good to know! Thanks for the tip and link.


Oooooh, IIIIII seeeeee, your tanks, lol. Wow, very very nice tanks, and, all on Kalkwaser? I was totally hooked until I saw the price of a LiterMeter. I literally choked on my tongue and passed out. I am actually typing this while I am on the floor with one hand reaching the keayboard. As soon as I come back around, I will try to look for something a little cheaper. :(

I was also thinking of filling the resivior with vinegar at a level dependent on what my tank will need divided by the dosing of Kalk per day, though, I hear vinegar diluted will only last so long before it starts producing bacteria, so, I cant make a hole lot at one time. Have you looked at that theory? I also hear that using vinegar puts more lime in solution too!?

[tmz]

You are welcome.

I think foxbody was talking about a mixing pump in the reservoir which is not a good idea,imo because frequent mixing is unnecessary in a reservoir; unlike an air sealed Nielsen type kalk reactor. A vacuum dosing pump ,diaphram or peristaltic kept out of the reservoir wont clog up with precipitant and will leave the limewater nice and still. A few hours after mixing in new kalk , a film, thought to be calcim carbonate forms at the surface and helps seal the water from the CO2 in the air.

[tmz]

Thats definitely good to know! Thanks for the tip and link.


Oooooh, IIIIII seeeeee, your tanks, lol. Wow, very very nice tanks, and, all on Kalkwaser? I was totally hooked until I saw the price of a LiterMeter. I literally choked on my tongue and passed out. I am actually typing this while I am on the floor with one hand reaching the keayboard. As soon as I come back around, I will try to look for something a little cheaper. :(

I was also thinking of filling the resivior with vinegar at a level dependent on what my tank will need divided by the dosing of Kalk per day, though, I hear vinegar diluted will only last so long before it starts producing bacteria, so, I cant make a hole lot at one time. Have you looked at that theory? I also hear that using vinegar puts more lime in solution too!?

Yes just kalk ,with a tweak once a week with a tablespoon of baked baking soda.

I got my liter meter for much less used. Bubble magnus dosers esimilar and not quite as pricey. BRS drews dosing pumps are less pricey ,around $80 but the BRS pumps will require a separate multiposition timer a $20 item.

The vinegar won't spoil in the kalk. The high ph keeps the bacteria at bay,just like the low ph in the undiluted vinegar does. Both are out of their tolerable range. Yes as noted in my earlier post using vinegar can boosts solubility for calcium hydroxide by up to 36%.

[Neptunes World]

Awesome, thank you sir and again, beautiful setup you have.

[89Foxbody]

Thanks for laying it all out for me. My ATO is run by a cheap Petco 225gph powerhead. I need about 6ft of head pressure to get into the back of my BC29 from under the pump. I'm using a 5.5g tank as my reservoir. I guess I can put the pump up on top of something to keep the precipitate in the tank. I also have a BM T-01 Doser but that would be kinda slow for ATO use wouldn't it? With the AC running I can evaporate almost a gallon a day...

[Neptunes World]

Maybe see what kind of hose will fit the pump, make a table for the pump body, run the hose to the bottom and get some same size elbows to make a J or something so the intake isnt really facing the bottom?