Can't Keep SPS Alive!

[RickReef28]

I have attempted a few SPS in my 10 month run so far.

1. Birdsnest frag-A/C went out for a day and it bleached
2. Blue Acropora Frag-Dead in a week-Bleach from bottom up RTN
3. Yellow Cup Coral-Its been 2 weeks and looks like its STN. I have tried to find a place where its happy but dont want to move it too much.
4. Pavano coral- had since pretty much day 1. looks great and growing

Parameters:
PH 8.3
Alk-7
Phos-0ppm
Nitrate-0ppm
SG 1.025
Temp 78
Calcium-420ppm

Any suggestions would be much appreciated! Is my tank just simply too young to keep SPS? I want to keep trying but dont want to keep killing these beautiful corals.

[mthomp]

alk could use a boost

[nlgill13]

alk is a little low at 7 (if you are calculating it in dkh).

Also what lights are you using? What is your magnesium level?

[RickReef28]

Light is a ecoray 60DX LED my tank is a 40 gallon 24X18X2. Remora Skimmer and HOB Filter. I have never tested my magnesium before. I try to slowly elavate my Dkh but I have found it to be fairly difficult to maintain at a high level? I do dose Brightwell aqautics Alkaline8.3

[chrisfont23]

In addition to lighting, what kind of flow do you have in ur tank?

[nlgill13]

without proper magnesium levels it is difficult to sustain good alk. Another issue maybe to much light (it sounds weird but leds are incredibly intense). Are you able to dim your lights?

[Alex T.]

Actually, 7 dKH is fine IMHO. People that run ULNS (Ultra Low Nutrient Systems) from carbon dosing a bacteria source like Zeovit, vodka, vinegar, MB7 etc. tend to keep their tanks in the 6.5 - 7.5 range. I use natural seawater and it tests at 6.4 dKH, but with my kalkwasser addition my SPS dominated tank stablizes between 7 and 7.5 throughout the week. If you're stable at 7 and don't jump around a lot, it's fine. If you want a little breathing room just in case, bump it to 8 over the course of a week.

Also, there's a lot of information still needed to give you an accurate course of action....such as

1. Lighting (what kind and what is your daily photoperiod duration)
2. Flow (display tank turnover rate)
3. Are you running a skimmer?
4. Do you run carbon? What kind and how often do you change it?
5. How large is your tank?
6. What fish do you keep?
7. How much and how often do you feed your fish?
8. Do you feed your corals?
9. What are you testing phosphate and nitrate with?
10. What is your maintenance routine?
11. Could there be stray voltage?
12. Are you running GFO?

Lastly, if you are carbon dosing, you may want to feed more and possibly add amino acids. If you're not carbon dosing, then you may want to consider keeping a little nitrate in the water column. If your tank is truly testing o nitrates and phosphates, then your corals are starving if you're not feeding your fish enough. Many people stress over keeping 0 nitrates and phosphates to the point that they forget we're keeping animals that need to feed. In the wild, coral reefs are DOC (dissolved organic compounds) poor, but nutrient rich. We hear the word nutrients and automatically think it's bad. Nutrients are exactly what their name claims...components of nutrition that sustain healthy animals, plants, corals, etc. There is an immense amount of planktonic life that feeds coral reefs. This is impossible to duplicate in our closed systems without crashing the system. However, in nature, this planktonic life does not pollute the reef because of the sheer water volume of the ocean. It's the old adage...dilution is the solution to pollution.

If you are running a skimmer, consider tuning it to pull a more dry foam so that there's something left in the water column for your corals to feed on. If nothing changes, maybe add another feeding to your schedule. If that doesn't help, then maybe add some more fish, and so on and so on. Whatever you choose, take each step slowly over the course of a few weeks and see if you notice a change. Don't do any 2 things at once, as you'll lose sight of what solved the problem. SPS corals hate sudden changes, and they'll show it by dying swiftly or receding.

Don't aim for or chase holy grail water parameters either. They don't exist! Beautiful SPS tanks exist at all ends of the parameter spectrum. What they have in common is stability and a patient tank owner who's developed a feel for when things go astray.

[Michigan Mike]

Do you have a lot of softies/leathers in the tank?

[RickReef28]

1. Lighting 11am-8pm Whites off at 7pm
2. Flow Turnover rate is 20X around 900GPH
3. Are you running a skimmer? Yes-Remora skimmer Aqua C
4. Do you run carbon? What kind and how often do you change it? I do. Kent and i change every 2 weeks minnimum
5. How large is your tank? 40 gallons
6. What fish do you keep? Maroon Clown and Sixline wrasse
7. How much and how often do you feed your fish? once every other day a mixture
8. Do you feed your corals? yes, mysis when feeding tenticles are out about once a week
9. What are you testing phosphate and nitrate with? Salfriet test kits
10. What is your maintenance routine? 5 gallon change every week
11. Could there be stray voltage? i doubt it but not impossible
12. Are you running GFO? i am running phoszorb

I do have a large thick finger leather coral in the tank and GSP but thats about it for softies

[sponger0]

First....mysis isnt food for SPS. They need something with much smaller particles of food. A couple recommendations: Rodifers, Oyster feast or coral smoothie.

Also alk is extremely important. I believe it should be between 8-11. But also it should be stable. As in it should swing more than 1 dKh a day. So keeping the swing extremely small helps. And magnesium is important in any system with stoney corals.

Any reason why you are running GFO? I have an SPS dom system and I dont run it. It can possibly be stripping the water too clean.

[RickReef28]

Well i dont feed my SPS mysis. I feed my sun coral, Candy cane, ect mysis. Mainly LPS. I dose DT's live phtoplankton about twice a week. I think im going to go out and buy a magnesium test to check that level and see if it's contributing to my Alk issue. Thats really the only thing i do not test for. GFO i run basically to keep phosphates as low as possible.

[sponger0]

0 phosphates is worse than .04 phosphates.

[Allmost]

0 phosphates is worse than .04 phosphates.

:eek1:

while running WAY TOO MUCH po4 remover is not a good Idea [PH wise] we try to lower po4 as much as possible. so I disagree with that statement.

how do you deal with po4 in your SPS dominated system ?

[sponger0]

how do you deal with po4 in your SPS dominated system ?

Is that directed towards me? Well I dont have PO4 in my tank. Im lucky if I hit .04.

But its very possible to strip the water too clean if you dont have something feeding it to drive high.

[Allmost]

Is that directed towards me? Well I dont have PO4 in my tank.

no chemist would belive that :) po4 is part of life, no po4 = no life.

I assume you keep no fish and no feeding ? no live rock

....

[RickReef28]

just becasue i dose with DT's phyto i dont think my water is too clean. my nitrate is always between 0ppm-2ppm and phosphates sometime range from 0ppm-0.02ppm. Its hard to tell what my issue is since i have only attempted a few SPS. I would like to boost my Alk slowly but its just doesnt seem to maintain that level if i get it to 8-9dkh. Im more and more starting to think that magnesium may be a problem but i do use Kent Sea Salt and the mag in the solution comes out to be around 1500 so not too sure untill i test

[sponger0]

no chemist would belive that :) po4 is part of life, no po4 = no life.

I assume you keep no fish and no feeding ? no live rock

....

If you would like, I can send you pics of my tank, and a log i have had for the past month with weekly Phosphate tests. I might have the log for langer than a month too

[Allmost]

just becasue i dose with DT's phyto i dont think my water is too clean. my nitrate is always between 0ppm-2ppm and phosphates sometime range from 0ppm-0.02ppm. Its hard to tell what my issue is since i have only attempted a few SPS. I would like to boost my Alk slowly but its just doesnt seem to maintain that level if i get it to 8-9dkh. Im more and more starting to think that magnesium may be a problem but i do use Kent Sea Salt and the mag in the solution comes out to be around 1500 so not too sure untill i test

test your mg.

also make sure to not run po4 remover more than adviced by the product you use.

lastly, keep KH Stable, the number is not important, but stability is.

[Allmost]

If you would like, I can send you pics of my tank, and a log i have had for the past month with weekly Phosphate tests. I might have the log for langer than a month too

no that's fine, but the statement "I dont have po4 in my tank" makes no sense ....

you should say "I dont have po4 ISSues in my tank" or "I dont have detectable po4 in my tank" which goes back to the test kit you use. I trudt you are using a hanna low range meter ?

as you stated earlier, if there is NO po4, then your corals will die ! everything living has phosphates. :)

[RickReef28]

I appreciate all the advice/thoughts!! I will buy a Mag test kit. Maybe it would help if i just keep at 7dkh and not dose. this way it remains stable and doesnt keep swining up and down when i dose. This is all great stuff. Probably the biggest thread i started so far here on RC. I think its great there is a forum to talk amongst fellow people that enjoy the same hobby. Kudo's everyone!

[Allmost]

I appreciate all the advice/thoughts!! I will buy a Mag test kit. Maybe it would help if i just keep at 7dkh and not dose.

Not a good Idea if you are planning to go with SPS.

you should test, and dose IF/AS needed.

alot of other stuff use up carbonated [KH] and lower it through the day, bacteria and fish breathing, coralline algae and so on.

now with a system with no SPS, the KH usage is not that high, and weekly water changes seem to take care of them. but its a good Idea to get ued to how to dose and maintain KH, if you want to go with SPS.

best of luck :)

[sponger0]

no that's fine, but the statement "I dont have po4 in my tank" makes no sense ....

you should say "I dont have po4 ISSues in my tank" or "I dont have detectable po4 in my tank" which goes back to the test kit you use. I trudt you are using a hanna low range meter ?

as you stated earlier, if there is NO po4, then your corals will die ! everything living has phosphates. :)

Yes I am using a hanna checker.

Everything living does have phosphate...that is correct.

[RickReef28]

hmmm...so maybe i shouldnt run GFO anymore and see what the effects are. So what im reading is i should Keep dkh stable by dosing when/if needed, dont run too much GFO. Perhaps its the way im acclimating them to the display? I dont really use the drip method. I just float for 15 mins, empty a little water out of the bag in a bucket, add tank water,let sit again for 15 mins and keep repeating untill most of the water in the bag is from the tank. take about 45 mins-1hr

[nuclearheli]

I agree with all the PO4 comments except you can't have less than detectable PO4, I believe you should. I also had bleaching problems with my SPS corals and found that the PO4 levels directly affected my corals health. I have been maintaining less than detectable with my kit (Red Sea) and all is well. Nice color and healthy corals.

Forget about trying to get 0 Nitrates, I don't believe that's possible in a healthy tank and not recommended. I use Red Sea dosing NO3:PO4 and run a large fuge and still cannot get 0 Nitrates. I gave up and should not have even been trying. Some nutrients are necessary, but PO4 is not IMHO.

[RickReef28]

I aways read that phosphates stunt corals growth and they just plain dont like em in the water besides the fact that P04 contribute to nusience algea which i have not had many problems with. All of my other corals are doing great (Sun coral, Candy Cane, Pavano, finger leather, Zoanthids, Hammer coral, Crocea Clam (i know not a coral but had to work that in...lol), Christmas Brain favia)

[RickReef28]

Well of course except for any SPS i attempted...:(

[sponger0]

PO4 also contributes to their growth. But never at high levels.

[Allmost]

ok why are you so worried about po4 ?

if your po4 reaches zero, all your LPS will die, so dont worry.

Sponger ....
high po4 stops calcification. I have no Idea what you are saying thogh, I might have understood ure post wrong.

lower po4 = higher calcification rate.

[RickReef28]

ahhh....the fickleness of the hobby...lol I will say that my tank in terms of "Maturity" is still fairly young (10 months) so perhaps a bit more patience and trial and error will solve my issue over time. Maybe one day someone will be jealous of my SPS corals like i am of many of yours..lol :)

[RickReef28]

ok why are you so worried about po4 ?


I am just trying to figure out the cause of my SPS corals demise overall. So im just trying to get an idea as to what may be causing it...

[sponger0]

Sponger ....
high po4 stops calcification. I have no Idea what you are saying thogh, I might have understood ure post wrong.

lower po4 = higher calcification rate.


Lmao....thats what Ive been trying to say haha. Is that no PO4 is bad...but high PO4 is bad too lol. The joys of SPS. Lol. I tell ya there have been times I was really to sell all mine off cause I was over there sensitiveness.

[sponger0]

I am just trying to figure out the cause of my SPS corals demise overall. So im just trying to get an idea as to what may be causing it...

I would say alk would be more of a cause than PO4. But I do like to cover most of the basis. When I had a nano, my phosphates were at .26 and they did fine, they just didnt grow.

[RickReef28]

Yeah. Me too. Just trying to brainstorm all the possibilities. I gotta check my Magnesium cause that could be causing my alk to be difficult to maintain if the mag is low. IM thiking that may be the issue. Im with you sponger0..the other day i thought well i just wont keep SPS. I just love a challange and really want to learn all i can absorb about reef tanks so i figure experience is the only way

[sponger0]

I just couldnt bring myself to give up colored sticks lol

[RickReef28]

Yeah. I cant imagine keeping a reef without SPS even if its just a few. The good thing is i have only been buying SPS frags so not too much $ loss. I'm too affraid to buy a nice big peice.

[sponger0]

Hahaha....Ive lost alot of money. I know some of the frags I have are up to $60 an inch even though I have heard of more ridiculous prices

[Alex T.]

Anyone who keeps SPS has lost a few.

I would up the feedings before directly feeding SPS.Feeding your fish every other day just to keep nutrients low isn't a hot idea either. Try feeding them once a day and take the GFO offline. You may not need it at all. As for parameters, stability is key above all else...especially alkalinity.

The Salifert test kit is pretty much useless. I was still reading 0 on mine in my last tank, and SPS were suffering. Once I got the Hannah Checker and saw that it was .09 I realized that the best place for a Salifert phosphate kit was in the trash can.

[nynick]

Don't think some minor Phosphate levels will kill corals in a day, or even a week. If something died within 24 hours of me buying it and everything else in the tank is doing great I would start looking for a new lfs :)

[RickReef28]

Well i tested my Mg and it came out to be 1225ppm so i doubt my Magnesium is the culprit in my Alk issue. Here are my test results from last night

Tested at 8pm
SG 1.025
Nitrates 2ppm-Salfreit
Phosphates-0ppm but who really knows-API
Dkh(Alk)-8-Salfriet
Calcium-460ppm-API
Magnesium-1225ppm-Salfriet

So seems to me my water is in line with acceptable ranges. The only thing i can keep doing is buy some more SPS perhaps from a different LFS and see if i have success.

[sqwat]

Dont change youre carbon so much and ditch the phosban.youre water params wile not perfect should grow anything.were did you get this livestock?could have been dying or bleaching b4 you had it.finder leather out and gsp i dont think this is youre problembut if you want a sps tank they could be in the future.what does youre skim look like and consistancy.im leaning on bad live stock along with the shock of a new tank .sps are not lps they cant be close to death and brought back by pumping it with food in the shade you look at a stressed piece of birdsnest wrong and it will bleach.just make sure youre current is cgood and lighting is good.i dont see a problem if you stop changing carbon so much get the carbon with phosphate remover in chemi pure elite last for months i run and then you can get rid of the rest.+1 on oyster feast my sps love it.

[Allmost]

Well i tested my Mg and it came out to be 1225ppm so i doubt my Magnesium is the culprit in my Alk issue. Here are my test results from last night

Tested at 8pm
SG 1.025
Nitrates 2ppm-Salfreit
Phosphates-0ppm but who really knows-API
Dkh(Alk)-8-Salfriet
Calcium-460ppm-API
Magnesium-1225ppm-Salfriet

So seems to me my water is in line with acceptable ranges. The only thing i can keep doing is buy some more SPS perhaps from a different LFS and see if i have success.

Rick ... you can change everything around ... if you like ... but it wont solve the simple problem.

wasnt your KH at 7 yesterday ? 1 DKH increase in a day will kill SPS ...
I see you CA++ increaring as well ..

keep them stable, testing daily, for a week or more. then try another piece, start from the sand, and move it up higher after a week or so.

about po4 ... again, api;s lowest point is 0.25 PPM !

anyways ... good luck

[sponger0]

Well for one your mag is low but doubt that will kill SPS. Alk is the major concern. Even if you can keep it at only 8. The key is stability and not much shift in alk.

And I agree with API phosphate kit being useless. It goes from 0-.25 Thats a broad range for testing phosphates.

[CHSUB]

IMO, finding why sps die, bleach, rtn/stn is very hard...i will say Alex T. is spot on with his advice and reread his first post. alk at 7-8 is perfect if stable and maintaining a high and stable ph.(night/day swing) mg seems like the new flavor of the week, low mg will have no effect on sps; only that it will make it hard to maintain alk/ca even when dosing large amounts...

[Alex T.]

Just to elaborate on what CHSUB said, magnesium levels even as low as 1100 will be just fine. The lingering notion that you need 450 calcium, 9-10 alkalinity and 1350 to 1450 magnesium are simply not true. Many claim that when their alkalinity fell from 9 to just below 8 that they have problems with SPS. It's not the value of 8 dKH that hurts SPS, but the unstable swing of dropping that much.

You'd be hard pressed to find these levels (especially alkalinity) in any ocean on Earth. Randy Holmes Farley has stated in Reefkeeping Magazine that there may be merit in keeping higher alkalinity in frag farming systems because the goal is growth. This doesn't mean it's necessary, and it's far more difficult and risky to keep these levels higher than lower IMHO. I feel that some of the SPS colors exhibited in low nutrient systems are not just a product of low nutrients, but in never pushing the envelope by raising calcium, alkalinity and magnesium levels past natural seawater parameters.

It may be in our inherent nature as hobbyists to tinker with things too much. Keeping it stable, feeding as much as you can without polluting the system and making any changes in lighting, flow and bioload slowly seems to be the hallmark by which some of the best growing and colorful SPS tanks are made. Too many SPS newbs hear how low you have to keep nitrate and phosphate top keep colorful sticks, and wind up starving their fish and corals. IMO the goal is to feed as much as you can, while still keeping the nutrients low through proper husbandry, regular maintenance, a big skimmer and strong lighting.

Just my .02, or maybe .04