Fish Loss Problem

[GeronimoZ]

I need a little help to try and figure out my fish loss problem. All this is happing in my 72 bowfront reef display tank. On July 19th I lost my foxface and July 20th and I lost my purple tang. A couple of days later I found the remains of what looked like my Tomini tang. These three fish have been in my tank for two or three years; the Tomini was in there over a year. So that was three fish for no apparent reason.

I did a water test and found nothing out of order, Alkalinity was a little low:
Calcium (450+ ppm)
Alkalinity (5 dkh)
Salinity (sg =1.023)
Temperature (82 degrees F)
pH (7.9)
Nitrate (0 ppm)

On Thursday, July 26th I placed a new foxface in the tank. Friday the 27th I placed a power blue tang, yellow eye tang, blue hippo tang in the tank. Sunday morning all four were dead.

I test again (tests were fine) and did a 10 gallon water change. I did notice that the other fish in the tank were having labored breathing:
Pair of Cinnamon Clowns
4 Blue/Green Chromis
Target Mandarin fish
3 pajama cardinal fish

On Monday, July 30th I purchased a Tomini tang and placed it in an established 7 gallon mini reef tank with the resident damsel fish locked up in a breeder net box.

On Tuesday, 7/31/12 I purchased a yellow tang from a different pet store and placed them both in the mini tank…they got along fine but were shy. In retrospect, I should have left them in that tank for a couple of weeks.
While I was waiting I decided that my auto top off should be pure RO water instead of Kalkwasser RO water. I was thinking that the auto top off was added too much kalkwasser water and therefore, driving up the pH too quickly.

On Saturday, August 4th I added the yellow tang and Tamini tang to the 72 bowfront and spent several hours watching them. I was thinking that the clowns might be attacking them. Everything seemed peaceful and I was feeling like it was going to be a success. I even purchased a foxface and added it to the 72 bowfront without quarantining it first (probably a mistake).
Sunday morning, August 5th, the yellow, tamini and foxface were all dead and the other fish had labored breathing….I did another 10 gallon water change and they seemed to be doing better. I also tested and found similar results. My alkalinity is back up to about 10 dkh. I also tested for Ammonia and it tested Zero.


I started this tank in April of 2008, and every night since I began, I have been turning off the skimmer at night. This tank is in our bedroom and I did not want to have the noise while we slept. I have a small pump that pumps in tank water so that the skimmer water stays somewhat refreshed. I have not bought any live rock for this tank in a long time so I doubt I have a predator (like a pistol shrimp). I did have a decorator crab that killed off some of my fish but he is gone now. I one time I did have a brittle star but I found out the hard way that it was killing my fish. I quickly got rid of him. I do have a serpent sea star that has been in the tank for over two years. All the literature says these are safe with fish and the deaths are too many at a time be a predator that is killing for food. I also had a seas cucumber that died in my tank (got into a pump – I think) and that killed every fish in my tank…that happened a few years ago. Sea cucumber are not allowed in my tank anymore…I love the way they look but they are too risky.

On Sunday afternoon I took my large yellow tang from my 54 gallon reef and put it in the 72 bowfront. Algae is starting to grow and I really am stumped at why I am having problems. This fish is very strong and healthy. I have had this fish in the 55 gallon for approximately five years. The fish is larger than the Cinnamon clown and I don’t think the Cinnamon will mess with the knife of the yellow tang. This whole time I have not seen the Cinnamon chase any of the fish. I also set up the skimmer to run all night long.

Monday 8/6/12…this morning the Yellow tang is a live and none of the fish were breathing hard! I really hope I have solved my problem. I plan to start with new fish in my 54 reef tank; I plan to sell the current residents: Maroon clown (large female), and pair of 4 striped damsels….all these fish are over 5 years old.

I would appreciate any ideas to help me with my 72 bowfront. I hope my yellow tang makes it. I always acclimate my fish to get them used to the parameters of my tanks. I just don’t know what is wrong and I really hate killing fish.

[natebedwell06]

have you tested phosphates? you said you were having an algae problem, if a fish is dumped into a high phosphate system he is probably going to die, also your adding a lot of fish really fast, which in my opinion is a bad thing to do

[Dr Colliebreath]

Is there any chance chemicals cleaners were used near the tank? You might run some carbon in the tank to absorb any impurities that may be there.

What type of circulation do you have in your tank? Many of the fish that died (the tangs) require a lot of oxygen and I wonder if you have enough circulation for when your skimmer pump is off.

[GeronimoZ]

have you tested phosphates? you said you were having an algae problem, if a fish is dumped into a high phosphate system he is probably going to die, also your adding a lot of fish really fast, which in my opinion is a bad thing to do

thank you for responding natebedwell06...I might borrow a phosphate test or purchase one. I do not have a phosphate reactor and I have not worried about phoshates in the past. My algae is usually kept in check by tangs in my tank. You are right about adding too many fish all at once...I know better.

[EllieSuz]

When you add more than one or two fish (depending on size) to any tank at once, the biological system is overwhelmed and unable to keep up. I'm fairly sure you had ammonia spikes every time you had fish losses. This would explain the labored breathing too. I strongly suggest you buy one fish at a time, set up a quarantine tank, and keep new fish in there for a minimum of six weeks before introducing them to your Display. Skimmers add a lot of oxygen to the water. If you must turn yours off, make sure that a powerhead in the Display tank is pointed upwards so that surface water roils.

[GeronimoZ]

Is there any chance chemicals cleaners were used near the tank? You might run some carbon in the tank to absorb any impurities that may be there.

What type of circulation do you have in your tank? Many of the fish that died (the tangs) require a lot of oxygen and I wonder if you have enough circulation for when your skimmer pump is off.

Thank you Dr. Colliebreath...I am very careful about using cleaning products near the tanks...especially ammonia based products....and my wife is definitely not using any cleaning products. I currently run carbon and it might be time for a change.

You might have some something with circulation. Almost a year ago I purchased a 10W Vortex....when I put it in the tank I did not feel it was strong enough to remove the two Koralia so now I have all three running during the day. At night I have been turning off the Koralias and turning down the Vortex. I might try turning the Vortex up a little at night; maybe the Koralias too if they are quite enough.

By the way my (Arnold Schwarzenegger) yellow tang is still alive after the second night. This morning everyone seemed happy and swimming around with no labored breathing.

I think the real test would be to place a new fish in the 72 and see how it does with the oxygen changes. I might wait a few days first. I was thinking about a foxface since I have had foxfaces and tangs together without much of problem. If I get one I will quarantine the foxface for two weeks minimum (I promise).

[GeronimoZ]

When you add more than one or two fish (depending on size) to any tank at once, the biological system is overwhelmed and unable to keep up. I'm fairly sure you had ammonia spikes every time you had fish losses. This would explain the labored breathing too. I strongly suggest you buy one fish at a time, set up a quarantine tank, and keep new fish in there for a minimum of six weeks before introducing them to your Display. Skimmers add a lot of oxygen to the water. If you must turn yours off, make sure that a powerhead in the Display tank is pointed upwards so that surface water roils.

That is good advice EllieSuz....thank you. I think you are right about the ammonia spikes....I looked my hardest to pull the dead fish out....but regrettably, I just could not find a couple of them; lots of live rock and large corals in my tank. I have a small (7gallon) tank in the bathroom...that I have been using as a quarantine tank. It is a mini reef so I can't use it as a hospital tank. Six weeks huh....man that is a long time to wait....I think I remember reading that in the literature. That amount of time will give the fish time to relax and not be as bashful. I do need to change what I have been doing; it is obvious that I keep killing fish. Good idea about agitating the water surface if I turn off the skimmer. For now the skimmer is not that noisy and it is not bothering us...so I will keep that on for a while.

[Wolverine]

While it's probably not the issue here, 4 or 5 days is not really adequate for a quarantine; should really be at least 6 weeks.

[A sea K]

Here is my 2 cents and someone correct me if I'm wrong. 1)Low Alk of 5 dkh. 2) low PH of 7.9 3) turning skimmer off at night.

Alk helps maintain a constant PH so you could be having major PH swings at differing times of the day. You did not indicate testing times so I'll assume your testing about the same time of day, in which case any day/night PH swing wont really show. If I remember right, PH natuarally drops at night which is why a lot of people run their fuge on a reverse light schedule to help minimize PH fluctuation. Add to that, turning off your skimmer at night effectively reducing tank oxygenation which will also reduce PH. With low Alk to help stabilize things this could be a big problem.

I've only been at this for a few years now and could be completely wrong, can someone else verify my thoughts or correct them if I am wrong.

[rogermccray]

Thank you Dr. Colliebreath...I am very careful about using cleaning products near the tanks...especially ammonia based products....and my wife is definitely not using any cleaning products. I currently run carbon and it might be time for a change.

You might have some something with circulation. Almost a year ago I purchased a 10W Vortex....when I put it in the tank I did not feel it was strong enough to remove the two Koralia so now I have all three running during the day. At night I have been turning off the Koralias and turning down the Vortex. I might try turning the Vortex up a little at night; maybe the Koralias too if they are quite enough.

By the way my (Arnold Schwarzenegger) yellow tang is still alive after the second night. This morning everyone seemed happy and swimming around with no labored breathing.

I think the real test would be to place a new fish in the 72 and see how it does with the oxygen changes. I might wait a few days first. I was thinking about a foxface since I have had foxfaces and tangs together without much of problem. If I get one I will quarantine the foxface for two weeks minimum (I promise).

Before you add another fish test your ammonia and see where that is, that will kill fish pretty quick...

[A sea K]

With low Alk to help stabilize things this could be a big problem.

Oops, This should read: Without sufficient Alk to help stabilize things.

[runintoluck]

Also, your temp is a little on the high side. That can definitely stress fish out if not acclimated adequately over a long period of time. Don't know if that's the root cause but it certainly doesn't help.

[mthomp]

to many big fish in your size of tank. I am guessing some of it is aggression and some of it is too much bio load that your tank is not ready to handle. also labored breath leads me to think you have a oxygen issue.

[Wolverine]

Also, your temp is a little on the high side. That can definitely stress fish out if not acclimated adequately over a long period of time. Don't know if that's the root cause but it certainly doesn't help.

Not sure I agree. My most successful tanks have been run in the 82-83 range. It's fine as long as you keep the water well oxygenated (which, in my case, has included running a skimmer full time).

[runintoluck]

Not sure I agree. My most successful tanks have been run in the 82-83 range. It's fine as long as you keep the water well oxygenated (which, in my case, has included running a skimmer full time).

Well I wasn't referring to the op keeping the temps that high on a consistent basis, but when acclimating fish to that specific tank, he would need to acclimate the fish over a much longer period of time if he doesn't wish to temp shock them. As you said, IF you have enough flow and oxygenation, it's not a problem.

[Wolverine]

Gotcha.

[rogermccray]

Well I wasn't referring to the op keeping the temps that high on a consistent basis, but when acclimating fish to that specific tank, he would need to acclimate the fish over a much longer period of time if he doesn't wish to temp shock them. As you said, IF you have enough flow and oxygenation, it's not a problem.

Acclimating to long will cause an ammonia build up in the water you are using to acclimate. You should read Sk8r's blog on acclimation... recommends no longer than half an hour, you can float the bag in the water to match the temperature. But you need the SG in your QT to match the water in the bag.

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[Kayo2289]

The few parameters that were low at the time of deaths shouldn't and I don't think could kill your older, healthy, and established fish like that. Just this past week a fellow reefer witnessed his 125 suffer severe sps, lps, and reef fish losses; due to rapid ph spike due to kalkwasser drip line malfunctioning due to getting clogged up, then seeping a bunch in all at once. That's just how I see it from the outside lookin in, just saying that you wouldn't be the only one who that this has happened to. Either way that hurts, but things are on the upSwing now.

[GeronimoZ]

While it's probably not the issue here, 4 or 5 days is not really adequate for a quarantine; should really be at least 6 weeks.
Yes….I agree….I do get very impatient….when it comes to adding fish. I am going to try and work on that.


Here is my 2 cents and someone correct me if I'm wrong. 1)Low Alk of 5 dkh. 2) low PH of 7.9 3) turning skimmer off at night.

Alk helps maintain a constant PH so you could be having major PH swings at differing times of the day. You did not indicate testing times so I'll assume your testing about the same time of day, in which case any day/night PH swing wont really show. If I remember right, PH natuarally drops at night which is why a lot of people run their fuge on a reverse light schedule to help minimize PH fluctuation. Add to that, turning off your skimmer at night effectively reducing tank oxygenation which will also reduce PH. With low Alk to help stabilize things this could be a big problem.

I've only been at this for a few years now and could be completely wrong, can someone else verify my thoughts or correct them if I am wrong.

My Alk is better now…I tested on Sunday and it is around 10 dkh. My pH almost always runs around 7.8 to 8.0…unless I dose a bunch of Kalkwasser…I have trouble keeping the pH high. I am keeping the Skimmer on at night now. My Yellow tang is still alive after the 3rd night and no labored breathing from any one. I tested my pH in the late morning after the lights have been on for an hour or so.
With regards to running the refugium lights on at night…that does not work because the tank is in the bed room and we can’t sleep with the light on. My refugium is a small hang on type.

Before you add another fish test your ammonia and see where that is, that will kill fish pretty quick...
I did test my ammonia on Sunday and it was Zero…however, I did find an empty turbo snail shell about the time that I lost my first fish. This may have been the culprit to the initial loss of my purple tang, tamini tang and foxface.

Oops, This should read: Without sufficient Alk to help stabilize things.

I definitely need to test my Alk more often…I sometime find it low. It is good right now.

Also, your temp is a little on the high side. That can definitely stress fish out if not acclimated adequately over a long period of time. Don't know if that's the root cause but it certainly doesn't help.

Thanks…I will keep an eye on my temperature. The Yellow Tang (that died)….looked fine when I put him in….not sure if this is an issue.

to many big fish in your size of tank. I am guessing some of it is aggression and some of it is too much bio load that your tank is not ready to handle. also labored breath leads me to think you have a oxygen issue.

Thanks…I have a lot of live rock and my system is over four years old….I have not noticed any aggression and the two largest fish are the living Yellow tang (4.5 inches)…and the female cinnamon clown fish (3.5 inches)..Everything else is small around 1 - 2 inches. I agree that I might have an oxygen issue.

Not sure I agree. My most successful tanks have been run in the 82-83 range. It's fine as long as you keep the water well oxygenated (which, in my case, has included running a skimmer full time).

Right…I have been at 82 for a long time without many issues. I agree with wolverine…I do however need to keep my skimmer going.

Well I wasn't referring to the op keeping the temps that high on a consistent basis, but when acclimating fish to that specific tank, he would need to acclimate the fish over a much longer period of time if he doesn't wish to temp shock them. As you said, IF you have enough flow and oxygenation, it's not a problem.
I see…

Acclimating to long will cause an ammonia build up in the water you are using to acclimate. You should read Sk8r's blog on acclimation... recommends no longer than half an hour, you can float the bag in the water to match the temperature. But you need the SG in your QT to match the water in the bag.

Very good point…

The few parameters that were low at the time of deaths shouldn't and I don't think could kill your older, healthy, and established fish like that. Just this past week a fellow reefer witnessed his 125 suffer severe sps, lps, and reef fish losses; due to rapid ph spike due to kalkwasser drip line malfunctioning due to getting clogged up, then seeping a bunch in all at once. That's just how I see it from the outside lookin in, just saying that you wouldn't be the only one who that this has happened to. Either way that hurts, but things are on the upSwing now.

This is why I took the Kalkwasser out of my auto top-off tank. I was thinking that I was adding too much Kalk water to the tank.

At this point who know what my problem was…maybe it was a combination of several factors…I appreciate all the advice given and thank you all sincerely. This is my first Thread on reef central and I am enjoying all the conversation.
Thought you might like to see my tank, hopefully this works.
http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/u/GMan/2012-Jul-29//thumbs/7_29_12_Corals-002-800x600.jpg (http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/focus/v/GMan/2012-Jul-29/7_29_12_Corals-002.jpg)

http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/u/GMan/2012-Jul-29//thumbs/7_29_12_Corals-005-800x600.jpg (http://www.saltwatermasters.com/gallery/focus/v/GMan/2012-Jul-29/7_29_12_Corals-005.jpg)

[Kayo2289]

encrusting much?? lawlz

[rogermccray]

Tank looks beautiful

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[BrianD]

Your tank is beautiful, but unsuitable for a hepatus or powder blue. A yellow tang is borderline.

[rogermccray]

Your tank is beautiful, but unsuitable for a hepatus or powder blue. A yellow tang is borderline.

+1

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[GeronimoZ]

encrusting much?? lawlz

Sorry Kayo….I don’t understand what you mean?

Tank looks beautiful

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Thanks Roger….I am very proud of my simple system. I am definitely not an expert at this…but it is really fun watching my corals grow.

Your tank is beautiful, but unsuitable for a hepatus or powder blue. A yellow tang is borderline.

Brian and Roger thanks….I just looked up the Specs for Paracanthurus hepatus on Drs Foster and Smith and it said 180 gallon tank minimum and it grows to 1 foot. The powder blue (Acanthurus leucosternon) specs say 125 gallons and it grows to 9 inches. The yellow tang (Zebrasoma flavescens) specs call for a 100 gallon minimum and it grows to 8 inches. So I understand what you mean….thanks.

I have coveted the powder blue for a long time; I guess to be fair to the fish I should consider the full adult size of my fish. My yellow tang has been in my 55 corner tank for five years now….I think he will be happier in the 72…I am planning to change the fish in my 55 corner; I am going to remove the Maroon clown and the 4 striped Damsel pair…the only fish in that tank. Do you have any tang recommendations for a small reef tank of that size?

[BrianD]

Geronimo, you get a gold star for taking the opinions offered in the spirit intended. That is so rare... Thank you.

As for the 55 gallon tank, you are probably not going to get many recommendations for a tang in a 55, but if you choose to, a bristle tooth would probably be the option. Personally, I love the tomini tang.

Again, a tang in a 55 is not optimum, but I did want to give you a suggestion if your heart is set on it.

[EllieSuz]

Brian beat me to it, but I'd also like to compliment you on the way you've handled some of these posts. We are not all the epitome of tact, but you took it well. I have a Tomini Tang in a 60, which has the same footprint as your tank. He has quickly become a favorite and he seems to be content in this size tank.

[GeronimoZ]

Geronimo, you get a gold star for taking the opinions offered in the spirit intended. That is so rare... Thank you.

As for the 55 gallon tank, you are probably not going to get many recommendations for a tang in a 55, but if you choose to, a bristle tooth would probably be the option. Personally, I love the tomini tang.

Again, a tang in a 55 is not optimum, but I did want to give you a suggestion if your heart is set on it.

Thanks Brian....I just read a little on tangs for a small tank...and it seems like the Bristle tooth type like the yellow eye and the tomini...are the best choices....but as you said...they are not really recommended for small tanks...

[GeronimoZ]

Brian beat me to it, but I'd also like to compliment you on the way you've handled some of these posts. We are not all the epitome of tact, but you took it well. I have a Tomini Tang in a 60, which has the same footprint as your tank. He has quickly become a favorite and he seems to be content in this size tank.

Thanks EllieSuz....I have alway felt like I can learn from every person...I do have my own opinions on matters...which sometimes gets me in trouble....anyway...thanks...and I am glad to hear that your Tomini...is happy.

[rssjsb]

One question- did you say your 55 is a corner tank? That's a lot less swimming space than a standard 55-gallon footprint, and would (IMO) rule out even a bristle tooth tang.

[GeronimoZ]

One question- did you say your 55 is a corner tank? That's a lot less swimming space than a standard 55-gallon footprint, and would (IMO) rule out even a bristle tooth tang.

Yes...54 or 55 corner tank...the yellow tang lived there for 5 years or so....I am still thinking about what I want to do...if I do anything at all...My dilemma is that algae will start to grow now that the yellow tang is gone....I have also been thinking about a Starry-eyed or a lawnmower blenny...to solve my algae problems in the 72 and the 54. The maroon and the two damsel fish will kill any new comers...last fish I tried was a blue devil and I never saw it again...

[rssjsb]

Yes, those are some very territorial fish. You may have to work on other ways to manage algae instead of relying on a fish.

[GeronimoZ]

I just wanted to mention that my yellow tang is still alive. It went into the 72 bowfront on August 5th and it is now August 29th...We have been running the skimmer at night to provide Oxygen to the tank....

My 55 is growing algae like crazy since I pulled the tang out of it....since I can not add fish to the 55 (Maroon Clown and two 4 striped damsel fish) the old residents are going to sold so I can put an Algae Blenny in there....

[RJT]

Beautiful tank.

Be careful with lawnmower blennies, they can be very aggressive especially to new fish. I had to remove one with I added wrasses. He was mean towards the tang I added so I thought it was because they both eat algae. But the wrasses were carnivores.

[GeronimoZ]

Thanks RJT.....I have had lawnmower blennies in the past....and have seen fish with the very distinctive lawnmower blenny teeth marks on their sides. It seems like the tangs and the foxfaces are the one that get bit. I think that I also seen teeth mark on the cinnamon clowns too.

I guess so long as the disputes are not fatal and not often; I am willing to risk having a blenny. They really go after the hair algae.

Since you brought up the aggression of the lawnmower blenny I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a lawnmower kill another fish.

Thanks