Live rock in sump

[longranger]

Does live rock in a sump require light to play it's beneficial role in metabolism of nitrogen? I ask because I don't want to waste watts and generate heat in my cabinet where the sump resides if it is not needed. I do not run a refugium in my sump area.

[Soggytoes]

It does not need lights but you are better off leaving the rock in the display area. Live rock in your sump had the tendency to collect detritus and may become a nitrate issue down the road if not kept clean.

[College Fishman]

i wanted to put some rock in my sump also. if not live rock, what would you put in there?

[jdegrasse]

1) It doesn't require light. Nitrifying bacteria are non-photosynthetic.
2) You don't have to use rock. You can use anything with a surface: bio-balls, ceramic cylinders, PVC pipe. The idea is to have a lot of surface area.
3) Whatever you use, you must clean it regularly, otherwise detritus will settle in and cause nitrate and phosphate issues.

[longranger]

Cool. Every month or so I could clean out the sump during my water changes and wash the rock with the discard water prior to discarding it. I have seen some setups with sand in the refugium. That must collect dietrius even faster than rock and I hate cleaning sand.

[mc-cro]

I keep my 3 baskets of rubble in my sump. Its easy to remove and clean, so I get all the benefits of the additional live rock and rubble, and dont have the hassle of trying to clean around it. I just lift lift the baskets out.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t95/micahmc/IMG_20111118_112550.jpg

[Soggytoes]

I keep my 3 baskets of rubble in my sump. Its easy to remove and clean, so I get all the benefits of the additional live rock and rubble, and dont have the hassle of trying to clean around it. I just lift lift the baskets out.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t95/micahmc/IMG_20111118_112550.jpg

I really like this idea! You could also just use a powerhead or turkey baster to spray the rock off once in a while

[College Fishman]

ive heard people say pull the bioballs. now i think im going to keep the bioballs and keep a little rock in the return section of my sump

[bongarone]

3) Whatever you use, you must clean it regularly, otherwise detritus will settle in and cause nitrate and phosphate issues.

Unless you're running a filter sock below the drain. Then you can use all the rock you want without ever having to clean it. :fish2:

[jdegrasse]

unless you're running a filter sock below the drain. Then you can use all the rock you want without ever having to clean it. :fish2:

+1

[Steve175]

Bioballs are great at turning ammonia to nitrite to nitrate but have no anaerobic zone and therefore are not great at converting nitrate to nitrogen gas. I would use them in the sump only if you absolutely have to - for example to control microbubbles.

[SmoothSmoke]

I keep my 3 baskets of rubble in my sump. Its easy to remove and clean, so I get all the benefits of the additional live rock and rubble, and dont have the hassle of trying to clean around it. I just lift lift the baskets out.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t95/micahmc/IMG_20111118_112550.jpg

This idea is so bad ***!!!!

[tmz]

No light is needed for nitrification or denitrifiation.

Nitrogen is bound in NH3 and NH4 as ammonia.

A basic view of the process back to ahtmospheric nitrogen gas :

Chemoautotrphic bacteria oxidize the ammonia to nitrite (NO2) to nitrate(NO3) These bacteria get their energy from the bond between hydrogen and nitrogen;they do not need solar enetgy to produce organic carbon from CO2 .They do not need light. They need surface area, ammonia and a source of oxygen. Light doesn't matter to them. They thrive on surfaces in high flow where free oxygen is continuously available.
Bioballs etc offer surface area and should be a fine choice for ammonia oxidizing bacteria to colonize if they remain unclogged , clear of decaying matter which may block flow resulting in less oxygen than they need , Live rock rubble is more likely to clog up and offers less surface area ,ime.

The end product of these ammonia oxidizing activities is nitrate (NO3); so the nitrogen is still in the water. The NO3,nitrate will flow out to the tank where nuisance algae and other undesirable and desireble organisms use it as part of their need for nutrients before denitrification occurs. This often contributes to algae blooms and the growth of other nuisance organisms. Some invertebrates including some corals are sensitive to high levels of nitrate. Teh level of ntrate at teh surface of reeef is quite low round 0.2ppm.

Denitrifying bacteria are facultative heterotrops. They get their oxygen from the water or from nitrate and their energy from organic carbon .They do not need to use solar energy to make organic carbon from CO2. Light doesn't matter to them.
When the free oxygen in a particular area is used up ;they turn to the nitrate for it;reducing the nitrate (NO3) to N .Most of the N bonds to N forming N2 nitrogen gas which exits to the air . Thus exiting the aquarium and the food chain.

The facultative heterotrophic denitrifying bacteria will not need the oxygen from nitrate if they are in a high flow environment where oxygen is continuously replenished; so, they wont do much if any denitrication( reducing NO3 to N) in an area of fast moving water in the sump, since they may never reduce the oxygen enough to make the anaerobic nitrate reduction necessary.

If the ammonia oxidation is allowed to occur on the surface of sand or live rock in areas of lesser but adeqaute flow rather than in a high flow area in a sump, the ammonia oxidation will occur there without the nitrate moving through the water column since the denitrifying bacteria will be able to use up free oxygen and create areas in even shallow substrate or rock pores or their own mats wherein they will need the oxygen from nitrate and take it leaving N the n N2,nitrogen gas. In this way keeping nitrate in the water column low.

So as to live rock in the sump.
For denitrifaction( reducing NO3 to N to N2 nitrogne gas) it's fine if it's kept pretty clear of detritus and kept in an area of low to moderate flow.

For nitification in a high flow its less useful than some other media since even bits and pieces of it will likely offer less surface area and clog up more easily. In high flow it is unlikely to support much if any denitrication either.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I have tons (well, hundreds of pounds) of live rock in refugia. Two 44 gallon brute cans have rock piled up to about 4-8" from the water line. While the top is lit and has some macroalgae and other photosynthetic organisms, most is in the dark down below. Water comes in near the bottom and exits the top.

I expect that the creatures on the rock, including sponges, etc help filter the water. It is also where I expect bacteria grow from my vinegar dosing just upstream of these refugia, but I've never seen any apparent globs.

[tmz]

I also keep a lot of extra live rock in refugia(probably around 150 lbs of it overall), for the same reasons as Randy with a moderate in at the bottom out at the top water flow;my extra live rock is kept in the dark with some of it in ambient light. I do have a separate bare bottom vessel for macroalge which is lit .

[alex gonzales]

I also have tons of rock in my sump, with a bunch of sponges and tube worms in there. I also have a light sand bed in there also, Is that ok?

[tmz]

Sand is ok ,imo I have one area with live rock on sand . I do clean detritus out every month or so.

[alex gonzales]

My system has been up and running for a year and a half, and I haven"t cleaned my sump ever. My tank is a full blown reef tank,sps,lps,zoas,etc.400 gal.my parameters are good, will my stuff start going south if I don't clean it out once in a while?Only been reefing about six years, been through three different tanks(55,135, and now my 400.

[tmz]

Alex, FWIW, I think some might be ok unless it builds up enough to cause anoxia in some areas along with hydrogen sulfide production. I've seen a little of that on the sand bed with live rock I use. Removing it will also reduce inorganic nutrient production ; generally a good thing ,imo.It may add some other things from whatever the organics in it have bound up as it degrades,metals for example. I only puff off the top level of sand with a turkey baster to let material potentially clogging it move out the drain into a temporarily placed filter sock or into a brine shrimp net I use to scoop it up. Detritus is usually ok in small amounts unless it's near or built up under a coral ; then the degrading process seems to stress them, ime. I know some folks say you can stir it up and let it fly around to feed corals;I persnally consider that harmful ;my corals slime up or close e up when detritus is inadvertantly stirred up and flys around teh war column.Several other folks I know who keep nice tanks keep detritus away from corals by routinely siphoig it out. I don't clear out the detritus in the brute can full of live rock except maybe once a year. When I have, most of it appeared to be mineralized( fully degraded) and there was no sufide(blackness) evident but that refugim is remote from the tanks.

[MicroMan419]

Just a side question regarding using the remote live rock in the brute container. Did you use a bulkhead or a uniseal on the container?

[BrentH]

[QUOTE=bongarone;20549432]Unless you're running a filter sock below the drain. Then you can use all the rock you want without ever having to clean it. :fish2:[/QUOTE

I've seen totm with a lot of love rock and muck in sump with low no3 and po4?

[Hzuiel]

Is it generally safe to just sum this up as, "live rock is only an effective filtration media if there is something growing around it to eat up extra nutrients, like in a refugium. So don't just jam empty compartments full of live rock, make a fuge." ?

[BrentH]

I have a bunch of live rock in my sump maybe I should remove it ... U guys have me thinkin now it would peobly help lower my nitrates ? I've always thought having it there' would be beneficial ?

[Hzuiel]

I have a bunch of live rock in my sump maybe I should remove it ... U guys have me thinkin now it would peobly help lower my nitrates ? I've always thought having it there' would be beneficial ?

Or add some algae and a light.

[el aguila]

I have a 100 G Rubbermaid full of rock sand on bottom rock is held up off of sand a couple of inches. Water flows in from bottom and out at top. Filter sock for water entering.

Copepods, amphipods, and peppermint shrimp help process wastes. Sponges proliferate the sump.

System has been up for several years. Read Steve Tyree's book on cryptic fuges.

[Aquarist007]

I have a bunch of live rock in my sump maybe I should remove it ... U guys have me thinkin now it would peobly help lower my nitrates ? I've always thought having it there' would be beneficial ?

Re read TMZ's post above. If the flow is low and it is not near a drain etc then you create a low oxygen area. At that situation the bacteria in and on the rock will reduce nitrates

[tmz]

I think live rock in a sump is fine as large pieces with flow to prevent detritus accumualtion and clogging it up, the extra surface area is beneficial .imo. No need to light it or put alge ove it .ime.

[tmz]

Just a side question regarding using the remote live rock in the brute container. Did you use a bulkhead or a uniseal on the container?

The input is via a drain hose through the lid into a piece of pvc which runs to down to a few inches off the bottom. The output is at the top via conventional bulkhead on the flat section where the handle was. I cut it off for access to the flatter surface. I uniseal could work;might be easier.

[Aquarist007]

The input is via a drain hose through the lid into a piece of pvc which runs to down to a few inches off the bottom. The output is at the top via conventional bulkhead on the flat section where the handle was. I cut it off for access to the flatter surface. I uniseal could work;might be easier.

I have a piece of PVC that I have drilled a lot of holes in. This runs the full length of the refugium . The refugium also gravity drains from the top