sand - lake huron beach sand ok? - also tapwater.

[gtron]

(for people skimming - if anyone is reading from Waterloo, Ontario, you can help with question #2)

i'm starting up a new 40 gallon (4'x1'x36" i think) setup, i'm using an old fluval (its about 2 gallons i think) and a red sea prism skimmer - I suspect both of those will need to be replaced but i'm planning to cycle for at least 6 months and probably another 6 months with just hermits and damselfish until I get a really solid system established and I get a full load of live rock in. I'm starting with 10lbs of very dried out old rock from my last aquarium that i'm sure has absolutely no life left on it. I'm waiting right now on an ordered stand to arrive, and i've picked up a few odds and ends, i've got a 50 gallon sack of salt, 10lbs of live sand and some other odds and ends. Now i've got two things I need to decide on.

1) I have 3 pails of lake huron fine grained sand. I would love to save some cash and use this (sifted and washed) so I can have a nice deep base. I would be adding a 20lb bag (im guessing) of very very fine carribean white-ish sand (i forget the name of the brand, maybe carribean sun?) to add some calcium, as well as about a kg of various hermit crab shells. Its going to really strain the budget (i'm just getting the tank going, i'll have more money later on) but alternately I could go with enough arag-whatever (my mind is not doing names today) sand of the same consistency but I would guess i'd need close to $200 worth retail and that would be to get about 1.5" base... I have more than enough beach sand and was planning to do a 2.25" base including the live sand and the fine coral sand mixed in. This sand is mainly granite, feldspar and quartz - it has a very low or nil limestone content. It also has virtually no calcium. I want to have jawfish and goby's - is this going to be a problem? its pretty dense sand. Its been close to a decade since I had my last tank and i've noticed that they have much finer sands available at retail compared to then, but I really like the consistency of the sand I have (and price. I have a limited amount of cash for startup right now and i'd prefer to spend it on rock as opposed to water and sand, but once the tank is started its a little unforgiving as we all know.

2) Tapwater vs. RO - this is a cost and back pain issue. I can get RO water about 3 blocks away for 6.50 per 21L, with $10 deposit. I can get distilled for a little bit cheaper. I know from experience to avoid "spring water" products because they are never any better than my hose. In Toronto and Montreal I used tapwater and since I run pretty dirty (I only use coarse foam and rings in my fluval and I set the skimmer more for aeration than skimming) - my original plan was to just fill up with the hose (which has a brass fitting on it), add the "instant ocean" (i can't believe I bought that, but I did for some reason) and the tap water treat, and then run the fluval with a fine filter and 2 tiers of activated charcoal bags for a couple of days with the top left open to let any POP's or chlorine that might evaporate do so. Then once any smell of chlorine is gone, i'll add sand and dead rock, let it sit for a couple days, then add live sand, crabs and damsel fish and about 10lbs of pre-cycled rock. At that point i'd switch the fluval to 3 tiers of rings and coarse foam like I usually run it, and once its closed and dark I generally never open it again until the tank gets broken down. I live in Waterloo, Ontario and the municipal water is usually pretty good - no flouride, definite chlorine taste and since its high summer there is an additional metallic taste at times as well as a biological vaguely algae taste but nowhere near what Toronto, Montreal or Windsor (all near waterways) has this time of year. My main concern isn't really chemicals because I know a couple days of charcoal will take care of that - my issue is more limestone content and various other things that lead to never ending diatoms, etc. The tank is going to be in a basement that is approx 20oC all year round and completely blacked out windows - so unless I have something funky making the algae worse, I should be in good shape. I used tapwater once in windsor, ontario and it was a nightmare - I eventually took out the rocks, drained it and put in RO water which at the time was still pricy. After that I had much better results. I used tapwater in Toronto and never saw the end of diatom problems, even after charcoal filtering. I had settled on using tapwater just because of the thought of lugging 10+ blue jugs of water requiring multiple car trips and down the stairs turned me off. But after musing about it with my dad he felt pretty strongly that I best do it right to start, offered to pay the deposit on the jugs (and probably do some of the carrying i have a bad back) - and initially I was having trouble finding a RO source for a decent price and then I found a place fairly close in the meantime. That being said, for $70 i could buy a few more pounds of rock. I'd like to hear opinions pro and con, and if someone from waterloo was reading this i'd love to hear a definitive (or hearsay) report on tapwater quality. It worries me a little bit with my cat's water dish - its pyrex and has a very thick mineral deposit on it - and it developed a noticeable one after just a month. And its like concrete - I have yet to find a chemical or scrubbing device that will do anything to remove it, including CLR. I'm starting to really lean towards the RO so I can get the biorings going sooner, and just totally avoid the mineral issue. $60 isn't that much to spend in the greater picture.

I'd also like reccomendations - via email, not in the thread - on online places to purchase rock - I like dirty rock with lots of life, and i'm cycling until november at least because i'm busy with outside things until then. I already got ripped off $180 by one site i'll leave nameless, I should have been suspicious when they needed a direct money transfer.

The other question I had was about aeration. The fluval has about 1' pipe on the outlet so it will definitely circulate water down to the bottom of one side of the tank, but the tank is 4' long. I had originally planned to put 2 1' long airstones behind the rock and use an adjustable splitter to keep the pressure low so I dont end up with crazy bubbles. The guy in the store told me I was an idiot and that I would just end up with salt crust if I used air stones. I've always had salt crust no matter what i've done. I've got the red sea prism skimmer which is a peice of crap in my opinion, I was going to replace it because the motivator in it is toast and a new one is $60 - but then I looked at the prices of new skimmers in the range (on the box which is in my experience sometimes inflated) were very, very expensive. The last time I bought much hardware was 2002 and prices on some stuff have gone up quite substantially, and i'm shopping at the same chain that I used to shop at, although not the same chain I bought lifestock from. I'm wary of using powerheads because on my 30 gallon no matter what things I crafted I couldn't keep fish and other life from being sucked to their doom into the inlet.

I like to have alot of rock and complex arrangement of the rock to make for a varied current but with a strong central current that crosses the outflow of the skimmer. That being said, i've never had a tank anywhere near 4' long and its going to be at least a year before I have a full load of rock in there, so there is going to be alot of just empty water space. Anyone have any reccomendations to add aeration, especially before the fluval to encourage growth in the "sump". I'd like to keep the noise down as much as possible and it would be really, really nice to not have a buzzing monster of an air pump in my mancave.

Thanks in advance for answers...

[jasonrstewart79]

Any reason why you can't just get an RO/DI unit and make your own water? Cheaper in the long run if you're going the RO or distilled route. Id hesitate to use tap water anywhere, its a crapshoot. Also, using freshwater sand may not give you the pH buffering capability and there could be a lot of dissolved organics bonded to that stuff, not to mention algae spores... I'd just do it right and go with some aragonite or crushed coral, your preference of course, or go BB. And on the rock I'd go with Marcorocks or reefrocks.net and seed with your choice of live rock. Cheaper and same end result. Of course, this is just opinion and some people have great results using methods that you've described, in a hobby like this that's all about lowering the upfront chemical contamination to get good results, I think you'd be better off doing it the tried and tested way. Just my .02

[gtron]

so i've looked at the suggested florida sites - just haggling with one of them regarding shipping, probably will get 40lbs of "dead" rock from the one, and some live rock from the other although i'm not big on fiji rock color wise, I prefer to avoid volcanic looking rock, but if the price is right for rock with healthy cyan/purple coating, I can handle going that way. I think i'm going to go with a mix of sugar sized and oolite carribeansun aragonite from my local source - petsmart actually has it for half the price of the marine store, but i've been reading tons of messages sayng it needs ALOT of cleaning. I've never had to clean aragonite before, I guess whatever brand I bought last time was just pre-cleaned - it settled down pretty fast and never clogged my filters. I want a good deep base that will make the gobies happy, and perhaps allow for an eel later on. Since i'll be waiting up to 6 weeks for most of my rock, i'll be putting 10lbs of rock from my old setup in, 10lbs of live sand and i'll probably buy another 6lbs of dirty and 6lbs of cycled rock just to get the tank such that I can start adding hermits and damsels.

Water-wise i've found a place nearby that has RO in containers - I priced out RO rigs and I don't think I can justify price wise with just a 40 gallon aquarium and my minimal water consumption living alone - the total cost of the RO water (minus deposit) is about $60, and I may need to take some water out once the rocks arrive. I'm definitely not going to futz around with tapwater after some of the reading i've done. Why make things harder on myself, i've got about $600 after the price of the stand and the parts for my skimmer I ordered to spend on water, rock and sand - unless my skimmer and fluval turn out to be not up to the challenge that is. I'm hoping to get everything in there by september and test water every other week, with any luck if I use that quarried rock I won't have much issue with biologicals and ammonia and hopefully in november (when I get a bit more spending money) things will be stable enough to add some fish and build a wooden 1' tall top to accomodate some VHO 4' flourescents - in the meantime i'll be running with two tops with 15" sockets - way less than I need although it is only 36" depth - I want to have a proper two-stage two-bulb sun and a standard moonlight bulb with dark periods to simulate a proper 24 hour cycle - that worked well for me before I was an idiot and switched to compact flourescent and burned half my reef. I have a couple larger diameter 36" and 48" fixtures that I can use with some sort of rigged up "holders" on top of the plexi top that came with the tank (and the lights) if the 15" lights are insufficient.

I think i'm in good shape (other than my wallet soon) ... thanks for the advice. I'd really love to find a rock dealer with decent prices in canada because i'm dreading bringing live rock through customs after already paying dearly for shipping ... but I think those florida sources look like the best bet.

[gtron]

sorry this is long and I know lots of people won't bother reading, i've got lots of questions before my setup day on tuesday ... so I figured i'd write them all down and hope for the best. I know in the end it will all come together but its my first tank in a decade and so much has changed! anyways...

so things are coming together, i'm planning to get a 40lb bag of oolite carribeansun sand and 5lbs of something more coarse, and about 1lb of hermit crab shells as well as the 10lbs of semi-coarse live sand I already have. So sand is done. I will probably have enough to put sand into my 30 gallon second tank later on. Anyone have any suggestions re: depth? I'd love to have a 2" depth (its a 36" deep tank) but everything i've read suggests (with little reason) to stick with 1" ... I had close to 2" in my tank in toronto of all coarse aragonite but I dont know if it worked or not, the tank was mostly fail because I was too new at it and did some really stupid things.

I'm wondering now about lighting. The tank came with a split-top and 2 tops with lights, just standard 24x12" ones with a plexi strip in the middle, a punch-out plastic cover at the back and a hinge at the front. I am not interested in using the puny single fixtures at all - so i'm going to borrow a 4' 2x bulb box style fixture from my grow room that normally is used on a sprouting table, I have 2 of them - so if I got plexi tops cut for the 2 sections, later on i'll build a box-top with 2 4' fixtures to hold 2 marineglo actinic and 2 daylight bulbs, and as money is around upgrade to electronic ballasts wired differently so the sun is in the middle and the blue is on the outside, and timers set up to have at least 4 distinct lighting periods - the same as I had it set up in toronto. Including 10 hours dark. I'm looking at LED lunar cycle options and I think most of the turnkey solutions are using outdated LED technology, I was thinking about 6 LEDs for night, using 4 true actinic and 2 violet UV 3W leds wired to a 12V 1amp powersupply (guessing) - i'd need heatsinks and some work done to hold the LED's - i'm totally new to working with LED's for aquarium lighting but it looks like the best bet for lunar. In the short term i'll get a 24" lunar bulb and put it over where the hinged parts of the lid usually would be. Any recccomendations on what to use for a lunar bulb? or am I overthinking, my other thought was to just twist off the aquasun bulb and run with just the marineglo during the night, with a timer set for about 5 hours of total dark (its in a very dark room) - Any suggestions are definitely welcome. I'm planning on focusing on gobies, starfish, crustaceans and for the first 6 months at least just 10 or so blue damsels to engineer the reef. I'm more interested in stuff like crabs and shrimp than I am fish to be honest, and I know a dark period is critical but having a lunar cycle makes for the most enjoyable watching for that type of inhabitants. I'm also interested in comments about bulbs - I know for sure i'm putting a 4' MarineGlo bulb in, but any suggestions with 36" depth on a sunlight bulb are welcome. I've got several different daylight bulbs in different sizes and wavelengths and all sorts of differnent marine bulbs but none are 4' other than the daylight full spectrum bulbs I use in the grow rooms. I used a CF on my 20 gallon tank for a while in a nice turnkey hood, and dipshit salesman sent me home with a single-color very red very hot bulb that burned every bit of life off my corals, but as far as I can tell using 4' bulbs in a 4' aquarium is going to be the same conditions as I had in my 20gallon 24" long tank with 24" bulbs of the same diameter, and I had pretty good results although I couldn't seem to keep anaemones happy.

I've decided to get RO water - my tank is a 4' x 1' x 36" high tank, if I have 1" of sand thats a 1/36th displacement so around a gallon. I'm using 10lb of very dense fiji rock (approx) i already have (from my old tank in toronto - and i'm only going to put it in if I really need it - worreid a little about macro and algae spores left on it) - i've ordered 25lbs of marco rock and 15lbs of toloku? rock from reefconcept - i'm told the marco rock has very low displacement compared to the fiji rock. I'm expecting that the 15lbs of fiji i've ordered will displace about 12 gallons of water, and the marco rock about 15g. I have to lay down $10 per 5g jug of water, which isn't a big deal - but I dont really want to end up with a ton of extra water. It is however critical for me to have enough to enable the skimmer to work unless I get some airstones to provide additional aeration. Its definitely going to be a scramble, i'm starting setup at 4:30pm, water store closes at 6pm, and the store where i'm getting the last of supplies is about 20mins drive each way - in a pinch I could get distilled water at the supermarket, at least they don't have the same kind of 30 day paid-by-cheque deposit return policy like the RO store. Now, another question here is ... I can get distilled water at the supermarket for 3.00 (10 deposit) and RO for 5 for $20 or 6$ approx (10 deposit) at the water store. I have in the back of my head that distilled water is not ideal for some reason, but I can't remember why... anyone want to clarify?

I was planning on using Stability from seachem so I dont have to waste salt on setting up an isolation tank for the first few days for the damsels and crabs - i'm going to end up pretty tight on cash after I get the rest of the stuff I need, I wont be able to get another sack of salt until november. Anyways, the store I ordered rock from doesn't have any stability left, and i'm setting up on tuesday because its the only day I can get access to a truck next week - so I was going to just gamble the store has some but before I bother calling them or trying to get some overnight delivery, i'd like some comment on whether or not its worthwhile to use stabilty or not. I have various other water treatment products already, but I liked the sound of that particular product.

[OU_Pilot]

Don't use the sand from Huron. There could be harmful bacteria, pollution, etc that may be present. It would take much longer for your tank to cycle after initial setup and you may not even be able to get it to 100% clean and ready...

Spend the $30-40 and get live sand, aragonite or arag-alive, or crushed coral from your LFS. Well worth it. You and your tank residents will be much happier! Let us know how it goes!

[gtron]

yeah, i've already decided (and feel foolish for considering huron sand) to use very fine aragonite - as much of a 40lb bag as I need, and then i've already got 10lbs of live sand, and I want to put a little bit of coarse aragonite on top as well as a bunch of hermit crab shells. I can't believe how expensive the hermit shells are - I used to be able to get a 1lb bag of them for $3.95 in toronto ... now they are nearly a buck each locally. I saw a site selling bags of a dozen brightly colored shells - im not sure if the paint is reef safe but i'll definitely be checking - that might be a neat addition to the tank, although I hate kitschy stuff in the tank. I'm not sure which sand product i'm going to buy 40lbs of - they had 4 different fine products, 3 of them were carribeansun - i've heard some stories suggesting that carribeansun fine sand requires quite a bit of cleaning - but i've never had problems in the past with sand refusing to settle after a few hours.

I guess another question is, for a tank with at least one goby, how fine should I go? I like the look of really fine sand in other people's tanks i've seen - I disliked the coarse aragonite I had in my last tank. I don't want to end up with clouds of fine sand and my filter getting clogged (i use a very coarse filter in the fluval and bio-rings, I only put in carbon when I have a specific reason to do so but I have carbon handy and bags) - one of the carribeansun products they had in 40lb (i think) bags was so fine it looked like milk powder. I initially was going to order key largo sand but i'm pretty sure i'm going to get the oolite carribeansun for the base.

[Jeff000]

yeah, i've already decided (and feel foolish for considering huron sand) to use very fine aragonite - as much of a 40lb bag as I need, and then i've already got 10lbs of live sand, and I want to put a little bit of coarse aragonite on top as well as a bunch of hermit crab shells. I can't believe how expensive the hermit shells are - I used to be able to get a 1lb bag of them for $3.95 in toronto ... now they are nearly a buck each locally. I saw a site selling bags of a dozen brightly colored shells - im not sure if the paint is reef safe but i'll definitely be checking - that might be a neat addition to the tank, although I hate kitschy stuff in the tank. I'm not sure which sand product i'm going to buy 40lbs of - they had 4 different fine products, 3 of them were carribeansun - i've heard some stories suggesting that carribeansun fine sand requires quite a bit of cleaning - but i've never had problems in the past with sand refusing to settle after a few hours.

I guess another question is, for a tank with at least one goby, how fine should I go? I like the look of really fine sand in other people's tanks i've seen - I disliked the coarse aragonite I had in my last tank. I don't want to end up with clouds of fine sand and my filter getting clogged (i use a very coarse filter in the fluval and bio-rings, I only put in carbon when I have a specific reason to do so but I have carbon handy and bags) - one of the carribeansun products they had in 40lb (i think) bags was so fine it looked like milk powder. I initially was going to order key largo sand but i'm pretty sure i'm going to get the oolite carribeansun for the base.

I like sugar fine sand.
Don't get rock from the states. Shipping nightmare and customs issues.
RODI unit is cheap.
Don't bother with the hermit shells, unless you like the look. snails will die, or the hermits will kill for the shell they want. Having them sitting around doesn't mean anything.
I wouldn't put painted things in the tank.

The cost of rocks locally is cheap, and you can see them. Always used rocks up for sale cheap too. Look on canreef for locals.

[Dapg8gt]

Am I reading the $60 just for your first run of DI water? For $120 you can get your own unit that will last quite a while and will end up saving you money over time. I got an eBay RODI unit for $135 called the water general and have made about 250 gals thru it and am still getting 0 TDS. But my water is not that bad to start with. And I think your idea to go with the aragonite sand is the best choice IMO. I feel the rock is personal preference as you are going to be doing the proper cycle so it's all about what you want to look at every day. JMO.

[Lig]

I agree with the other members recommending you just buy a RODI unit up front. You will save a lot of money over continually buying water.

[Michigan Mike]

Agreed, for what you are looking to spend on water get the RO/DI. I personally think distiller is fine too, people gripe bout it maybe having copper but everything is made using stainless steel nowadays and someone will have to prove it to me.
Aragonite sand only don't use crushed coral because it traps poop.
Don't cycle the tank with damsels, it's cruel and they are just mean and hard to remove from your tank later on. Use a raw shrimp from the store and throw it in the tank, let it dissolve on it's own, that's your cycle starting ammonia source, done.
Are you wanting corals? If so start saving for a good light, do not skimp on this!
Otherwise you'll be fine with whatever will let you see your fish, but if you do it right the first time you're spending less money in the long run.
Power heads may kill fish, it happens. Some have sponges on the intake or you could super glue a shield of some sort over the power head style kind , the circulation fan style kind your s.o.l.
Ditch the crappy hoods and go topless or make a window screen type top from materials at the hardware store. Glass tops will work if you clean them often and have another way to add to your gas exchange.( like a sump and skimmer ). Better or a fish only tank.
An airstone kinda works for adding oxygen to the water but they will crud up your tops and are generally considered taboo, if your fish are gasping for air at the surface is the only reason why one should be added unless you really like them.
Go slow, save money, do it right, do research then ask questions, learn patience. I think most of your questions have been answered already but may have missed some. This is not a cheap hobby, if you want to go cheap then go freshwater. There are awesome freshwater fish and maintenance is cheap with them. I have two African cichlid tanks and a planted tank with angel fish etc. Still very cool.

[gtron]

got my rock, surprised how small in size the 25lbs of marcorock is, its VERY white - and the live rock (toloku?) is very nice and dense, but smells already - I dont have a car so i'm brita filtering some water in a well cleaned bucket, i'll mix it up with salt and put the fluval on it for aeration - I dont have anything else to provide aeration until tomorrow. Not having a car is a drag in this whole project. The marcorocks are very sharp edged - i'm a little worried about that with fish but they are otherwise very nice. They got damaged a bit in delivery but the crabs love those little frags of rock to drag around and play with. I'm not impressed with the delivery people- the instructions said to put it by my side door where its shady and it could be laid flat, instead they rammed it sideways by my front door - then I dropped it coming in because it was a pretty enormous box in a giant plastic bag. I really wish I could hold off on putting the rocks in water just because I dont want any tap water (brita filtered or otherwise) going in the tank, but i have treatment stuff and i'll put the fluval on it with a carbon filter so it should be pretty safe to put in the main tank. I dont want to lose all the life thats jostled loose in transportation.

[Jeff000]

got my rock, surprised how small in size the 25lbs of marcorock is, its VERY white - and the live rock (toloku?) is very nice and dense, but smells already - I dont have a car so i'm brita filtering some water in a well cleaned bucket, i'll mix it up with salt and put the fluval on it for aeration - I dont have anything else to provide aeration until tomorrow. Not having a car is a drag in this whole project. The marcorocks are very sharp edged - i'm a little worried about that with fish but they are otherwise very nice. They got damaged a bit in delivery but the crabs love those little frags of rock to drag around and play with. I'm not impressed with the delivery people- the instructions said to put it by my side door where its shady and it could be laid flat, instead they rammed it sideways by my front door - then I dropped it coming in because it was a pretty enormous box in a giant plastic bag. I really wish I could hold off on putting the rocks in water just because I dont want any tap water (brita filtered or otherwise) going in the tank, but i have treatment stuff and i'll put the fluval on it with a carbon filter so it should be pretty safe to put in the main tank. I dont want to lose all the life thats jostled loose in transportation.

Don't bother with the britta. Just use prime in the tap water for now. Britta won't take out the chlorine/chlormine.

Dense rocks are bad. You want surface area with nice airy rocks like the marco rocks. And the fish will be fine with the sharp edges.

[gtron]

more problems now ... I set up a bucket with my fluval and put the live rock in it, the fluval is leaking out the sides - no idea whats wrong, its as if the hinges just aren't as big as they used to be - the o-ring looks OK but it has been in storage for at least 7 years.

I'm hoping nothing is wrong with my skimmer - its impeller is broken so i'm picking up a replacement I ordered tomorrow - hoping that it fits, but i'll bring the HOT with me (red sea prism) to the store to make sure it at least fits.

I assume I should get a powerhead, and probably a new canister filter - does anyone have suggestions for a 40 gallon tank that is mainly rock with a few fish and crabs - I like the fluval 204 i've had for over a decade, but none of the mail order places seem to carry them anymore. So I may have to look at other brands ... and i'm really hesitant to get advice from salespeople at the local chain store i've done most of my business with in the past. Any suggestions? it will be coarse filter (floss) and biorings, probably swap in some charcoal if the need arises with tank conditions.

[Jeff000]

more problems now ... I set up a bucket with my fluval and put the live rock in it, the fluval is leaking out the sides - no idea whats wrong, its as if the hinges just aren't as big as they used to be - the o-ring looks OK but it has been in storage for at least 7 years.

I'm hoping nothing is wrong with my skimmer - its impeller is broken so i'm picking up a replacement I ordered tomorrow - hoping that it fits, but i'll bring the HOT with me (red sea prism) to the store to make sure it at least fits.

I assume I should get a powerhead, and probably a new canister filter - does anyone have suggestions for a 40 gallon tank that is mainly rock with a few fish and crabs - I like the fluval 204 i've had for over a decade, but none of the mail order places seem to carry them anymore. So I may have to look at other brands ... and i'm really hesitant to get advice from salespeople at the local chain store i've done most of my business with in the past. Any suggestions? it will be coarse filter (floss) and biorings, probably swap in some charcoal if the need arises with tank conditions.

You'll have a hard time finding someone to recommend a canister filter. Very few run them, they are a lot of work to prevent them from becoming nitrate traps, among other issues.

[gtron]

so what is reccomended? HOT? I didn't like the idea of canister when I first got mine, but I really liked it - that being said, it did coincide with the beginning of diatom blooms that were merciless, I wasn't testing water often enough back then.

Suggestions are welcome, I have until 4:30 EST to decide what i'm getting. I have about $200 to spend on filtration and aeration. Lets hope the skimmer works...

[anbosu]

If you have a skimmer you don't usually need additional mechanical filtration. If you have a sump you can run reactors and filter socks and do the same thing much easier than you would with a canister filter.

[gtron]

I wrote a big long reply but it didn't get posted, so i'll just repost my post-build update, after that its pizza and sleep time and an old episode of dallas to make me realy, really tired.

done the build. time to nap. very murky - couldn't get the substrate I wanted so I blended 3 different ones and got a 30lb sack of live rock for $19 or something like that (canadian) so I did pretty well, I got almost everything essential (missing 2 o-rings, and the originals whereabouts are very mysterious) and a few extras (2 serpent stars, a cuke and some odds and ends, and a joined pair of pistol and goby - going to have to really flex to keep them healthy in the isolation tank (with a still leaking canister even after 3 new parts) - oh and my skimmer is busted, but I don't really need it right now. I got a 200w heater (with a proper thermostat, something I sorely missed 10 years ago) and a slightly oversized wavemaker-style currentmaker/powerhead (nomenclature seems to have changed) - rock worked out well, the 15lbs toluko 25lbs marco 10lbs old rock and 1.5lbs really nice rock i got today - filled the tank pretty much top to bottom end to 1' from the other end - I left a little deadzone at the end for the goby and shrimp to cavort. Lost a few crabs in the process but I got a free sally with my live rock. Accidentally might have buried a bunch of crabs, I think they got buried in an accident - sand came out of a 5lb coarse bag really, really fast and all dumped in one spot - so until the groomers move it around, i've got 3-4" at the end with 1' without rock. And 1/2" at the other end. I might have to take the rocks out tomorrow once its more settled and do some proper arranging, and figure out where the hell the hydrometer went - at least I was done with measuring salinity before it disappeared. Also, flies love reef aquariums. Now: mostly I sit and watch for 6 months.

[gtron]

so the setup went perfectly other than the long settling time with the aragonite. The skimmer and the fluval are both still missing what appears to be the same o-ring - I will be hitting up a hardware store after I get my day underway (reeling a bit at what comes next) and hopefully that will fix the problem. Looks like I will need a new motor head for the fluval. I'm wishing I had drilled an overflow hole because at this point it would cost about the same to fix the canister as it would to set up a rudimentary sump, but that wouldn't help my problems right now.

As soon as I got the temperature kosher and gave the tank a few hours to sit, I added some live phyto and food granules to give them a chance to disperse all over, and the particulate was down to just slightly foggy. The water tested fine, I know the trace is OK because with the RO and the reef crystals it should be top notch anyways. I went to bed thinking wow, I did a hell of a job this time. I tossed and turned for a while, and got up - the hydrometer had freed itself from the rocks and the temp was OK all over the tank with a slight warm spot around the wavemaker/heater at the end of the long tank - good 360o current moving briskly, with one eddy on the powerhead end around where there is a nice cave in the rocks. I added the hardy stuff - i've had emergencies happen and had to put damsels into cold water, fresh water and terrible water and i've never had a problem - it appears the damsels and at least one star died and they are virtually indestructible. There is a bad die-off smell I can smell all the way upstairs but it already smelled like that from the live rock bucket - but its water tested a little high in a couple tests but it was the same temp and PH and salinity as the main tank. I should have kept the damsels in the bag until morning, but who would have guessed the tank would sour enough to kill hermits? they can survive just about anything - I was mad last night that I lost two to shell-bailout, for some reason their shells didn't sink and they jumped out and didn't make it to any of the pound or so of shells I put on the bottom. It looks like most of the snails have gone into some sort of stasis, i've moved a few onto the rocks from the glass and they are happy enough now and moving around. It looks like being reckless (I really didnt think I was based on past smaller setups) ended up with sadness and death in this case. There is no noticeable ammonia smell and the test didn't even register in range, i'm wondering if a big mistake was leaving only actinic on last night - perhaps more food (and processing bacteria) would have flourished last night with the 10k's on. Today against the bio-spira's reccomendation i'm running the skimmer on idle (its misisng an o-ring so it can't actually skim, and sounds like a machinegun right now but at least its oxygenating) - between the pouring of the water (which I didnt violently, intentionally to get lots of air) and running the skimmer on idle for 5 hours last night - and the very nice new wavemaker/powerhead - lots of surface circulation is obvious, very nice surface movement - I dont think this is an aeration movement. The sand's leftover mist didnt coat the rocks so I dont think it was a particulate issue, but the gills on the dead damsels were sticking very wide out - something i've never seen before. I've got the fluval running with Purigen, charcoal, biorings and 4 coarse foam peices - so if there is a chemistry problem my kits didnt pick up, the purigen will take care of it quickly. I am having flow issues with the purigen - I may pull out the half tray of rings I put in the canister above the purimax and let it space out a bit, which is contradictory to how i've always packed filters in the past. At the flow rate its running at with the missing o-ring i'm not super worried about bypass anyways. I've come to the sad conclusion that the livestock should have been left in bags for another 12 hours, but in the past when I had death problems (even with a new tank) it was because I was too slow getting them back to food. The cuke and pistol are in the isolation and look healthy and happy, which boggles my mind because the main tank has much, much better equipment running on it. I set the main tank up in the same way as the isolation exactly - except the isolation was tapwater with instant ocean normal, and the main tank was reef crystals with RO. I know its too soon for damsels to have died from lack of food, the only thing I can think of is a chemical issue - the smell is NOT present above the tank so I think its the containers the live rock came in - or an aeration issue. The one thing I did differently starting this tank to my past tanks was that I used granules of food instead of flake - I suspect there was not alot of food other than what the live sand, the cycle and the bio-spira provided (and the live phyto) - I normally ran the fluval right from the get-go, and I usually left the lights on for the first week 24/7. I know I made a few mistakes with the sand bed which i'm going to correct in a minute (after breakfast and another smoke, definitely going to smoke alot today because my nerves are shot and i'm in a rotten mood) and then i'm going to arrange the rocks + shake off what little muck is on them, fix the bed and do a headcount of whats alive and what isn't. I think the snails will perk up if I move them all onto the rocks because the glass is too clean right now. I thought I had a couple packages of seaweed upstairs I usually use to get some deritus in the tank, i'll be going to the hippie store to buy a packet later on and i'll get some flake. Its not nitrate or nitrite, I really dont think the RO water had anything wrong with it - it tasted perfect when I drank some. I'm just boggled. I guess I will grieve, kick myself for a few days for being reckless, get the tank arranged how I like it with the lights on (one of the ballasts is failing but i've got a spare) and let it sit for a couple weeks to a month. I guess the bio-spira wasn't enough to keep things in initial check. In a couple weeks i'll next-day an appropriate CUC and a couple more serpent stars from toronto, and get a couple damsels - I had damsels from the same batch but they were on special which sometimes worries me - they were fighting a bit in the bag which is why I decided to let them out. I don't know. I have to chalk this one up to unknown user failure i guess.

The other problem i'm having is with massive fly attraction to the tank, usually the damsels make short work of trapped flies but they appear to be all dead so i'll just have to fish them out for now. I've pulled out at least 50 so far, but its peak fly season for another couple weeks then they'll be gone.

so sad.

[gtron]

I pulled out all the rocks, another regret is that I didn't wait until the tank was totally clear water and I had more time and patience to examine each rock carefully. The rock I thought was crappy (because of its coralline coverage) was low, but i've found at least a dozen baby corals on the rocks and a half a dozen bivalves.

So i'm a little confused with the aparent massacre, it is not nearly as bad as I expected - the only thing thats definitely dead is the 4 damsels, if the goby died then its its own damn fault for escaping the bag - I put in a hole for food and I should have untied and retired the bag. The serpent stars are both moving again now that I put them back into isolation in a pitcher - I took out everything but the sand and a couple rocks - the sea cucumber decided to crawl through a passage in the (sharp) marco rocks - so its totally weaved through the rock but very much alive. I sifted through the 3 sand layers (very fine sugar on the bottom (regretting buying that even at half price, I should have gotten two bags of the coarser live sand at 45.99 for 30 vs. 19.99 for 30. I've always wanted sand that fine for a medium-depth bed - I dont think it will be a nit trap, but i'm definitely going to have long term problems with sandstorms. I will add some puka shells or something, 5lbs or so to the surface of the sand to cut down on the flareups and give the next set of damsels lots to play with. The crabs and snails must have been dormant earlier from the light being off - now that there is lots of light there is tons of obvious light. I would be made a man of god if the damsels started moving though, they are toast. The major regret I have is the goby because it was already joined with the pistol (that I havent seen but I assume is in his hidey shell in the bag) - if the issue was particulate or even water conditions, or a lack of food (i doubt that) then the goby would be quite adapted to survive. i"m glad I didn't find realy any buried crabs after the accidental dump of 5lbs of live sand on the very far end of the tank - thats where I let the crabs out, and I didnt see any because they were all on the rocks. I know for sure I lost 2 crabs and I couldnt find the sally - I smoothed out the sand bed with the rocks and life removed (it will take a bit more work with a (tank safe) wooden 3" wide board i've always used to set the bed. I'm not going to do anything until the renewed particulate drops down, and i've got about 4" in a pitcher of fragments and loose shells i'll put on the "runway" at the end of the tank where i'm not putting any rock. I'm going to get out the pen and paper and catalogue the live rock peice by peice with the magnifying glass to make sure they are all turned lightside up (I need to make sure the minimal purple gets the best possible conditions) and any corals or bivalves are near the top. I swapped the ballast on the 10k and its not flickering anymore, so hopefully that will jumpstart the bacterial processes that I should have done last night. I am also wishing I had bought a pair of hinged glass covers and the 4' bulbs rather than these 4 rinky dink fixtures that dont fit on top in any decent configuration.

I'm still pretty ashamed at making newbie mistakes, but i'm also not that upset about losing the damsels (i'll be pretty heartbroken with the goby but like I said, its his own damn fault and I never intended to put him in today) because they aren't really heartwarming fish to begin with although for entertainment value I like them after clowns just with their tunneling and attention to the sand bed. I don't know what I would have done differently next time, and it would have been a totally different situation if I would have had access to a car in the next 10 days, I didn't want the heavy bio-load of culture to explode without a CUC to keep them in check. The LFS older guy suggested all sorts of stuff - but I think I explained the tank better to the younger guy and he thought a few things I wanted I should wait, the older guy was a little more gung-ho and it sounded like he had alot of experience with fast-start installations using pretty similar approaches. The one thing that worried me about the store was the lack of any cycling products - no Stability, and no Biospira - I wonder if the situation would have gone better if I had ordered stability from where I got the purpleup, but it was $7 more there than my (backordered it turned out) place where I got all the rocks - I also checked the receipt and they negleced to send me the purple seaweed I ordered. I'm definitely relieved looking at my isolation container now because its just teeming with life, and the tank itself is definitely teeming - i've never put 25lbs of live sand into a tank before, but from what i've gathered in the last 10 years people have come to the conclusion that live sand is not much better than dry sand for microbial content. Under the magnifying lens despite being murky you can really see the life in there. The sand base has two very obvious layers. The cloudiness is very different than it was last night - last night it was suspended sand, now it looks like milk so I hope it settles down pretty fast so I can arrange the rock superbly. And I guess, for those inclined, say a little prayer for my goby and his idiot of an owner.

[Dapg8gt]

I thought you stated you were gonna cycle the tank? You put fish and stars and crabs into the tank the first day with the tank and rock cycling ? Not too cool if you ask me. No offense but you might wan to read up on what a cycle is and how to complete it without sacrificing livestock. Or at least wait a day for things to settle out after te water heats to temp at least. Again no offense but I kinda feel bad for the livestock that you sacrificed that could of been completed with a piece of shrimp or fish. Again not trying to offend you but I would have taken a total different approach to the planning and cycle of this project. JMO.

[gtron]

A long period cycle isn't required when you've got all dead or cured rock, RO water, live sand and quick-cycle materials, and nothing is hardier than a cleanup crew. It looks like I lost a few hermits (that always happens) and 4 damsels (which may or may not have been sketchy as they were on sale, but that was probably somehow my fault.)

Some people go to rediculous lengths with cycles - my first tank I cycled for about 5 months before I put anything into it and the lesson I learned is that no system is going to evolve into a stable configuration if it starts out a mess, or is missing major predators and food sources. I'm sad that I lost the fish - i'm very relieved that 95% of what I bought is thriving. I definitely made a few mistakes, but I spent nearly 6 months researching this build out, and I spent the last 4 weeks carefully planning every detail and asking tons of questions here, elsewhere and to my old reefing contacts.

If I was using cheapo uncured rock, or if I had tried to add shipped rock directly into the tank (I kept it in isolation for 2 days until the stink was gone and the water tested OK with charcoal and foam) but if I did it again, I would only make slight alterations. Left to my original plan I wouldn't have gotten the cuke and stars (they are OK by the way although the cuke has decided to try and go through a hole in the middle of a rock) but I went on the suggestions of a guy with 10+ years pro experience on top of whatever his am experience was before that. My water is fine, nothing spiked, its been stable for 13 hours at temp now. The fish had plenty of time to adjust in their bags floating on top, more than twice what I usually give them.

Definitely sad for the couple crabs and the damsels, although I hate to say it but both are pretty disposable life to me in terms that they are put in the tank to serve a specific purpose but I don't consider them to be higher levels of life. I grew up on a farm and was exposed to everything but dairy, and i've had fish since I was 7 or 8, i've had everything from goldfish to pirahnas, i've never done tropical/cichlids but i've done a fair bit of brackish. I'm definitely not coming off the boat with no experience here. As far as i'm concerned, a CUC is absolutely essential to a cycle and I absolutely require at least 1 engineer fish per 10 gallons. I don't have access to a car in the next 10 or so days, and from past experience I think waiting 10 days to add top level predators is more than enough time for a long term diatom (or other) problem to emerge. Like I said, i'm sad, I wish I hadn't been quite as reckless as I was but its my nature to be especially after waiting a month for a truck, and things could have gone *alot* worse. I'm going now to get the parts to get the skimmer and the filter back online if I need them but I doubt any of my stats are going to change in the next 2 weeks. I also need to get a new thermometer sticker because thats what caused my initial panic this morning - I thought the tank was too cold from the sticker, but when I used a better thermometer the tank was uniformly 25.5oC from end to end, and much more uniform than any tank i've had in the past even months down the road. The wavemaker/powerhead I got is superb (I can't find the box but it was a german name) - its got a magnetic and suction base, a swivel and a good shield for inverts, kind of like a house fan in design. It was $20 over budget but i'm glad I got it because its doing a tremendous job.

I've got to do something about the 68k bulb, not sure where it came from (maybe with the tanktop) but its gotta go - right now the tank is purple on one end and blue on the other. Not good.

Very surprised how much of the marcorocks "melted" off - it might just be the moistness but the sharp edges are totally gone, its like the whole surface kind of melted off after contact with the salt. With the sheer amount of dry (dead) rock and sand that was added I am not expecting anything but clear sailing from now on. I would be kicking my own *** if I did something like buying anaemonaes or corals on day one but I feel no guilt about having an engineering staff and a cuc. Mistakes are how you learn but its never happy to lose livestock.

[sasharotty]

Me thinks you need to read the stickies. You need to cycle the tank. Flies are not attracted to reef tanks. You want to put eels with gobies. Even with cured rock during shipment your going to have dieoff that will spike levels. Just a few things i noticed in your posts that i read.Do alot more reading before sticking more animals in the tank please.

[gtron]

i've read and read and read. I'm glad I didn't try to do a seat of my pants low-pay build like I originally thought I might. I went all out and as far as i'm concerned I didn't rush anything. Fast cycling culture like biospira, stability and culture have a proven track record in hobbyist tanks and installations. I'm not a city kid who just decided to put up a reef tank, i've been raising and caring for animals including fish for most of my life and i've always extensively researched things. The problem with the status quo of the hobbyist community is that people tend to micromanage and i've learned that when dealing with a living natural system you have to start where you want to end out with a planned path, and start it up and let it go. I also believe (and some might think i'm heartless) that there are show fish and working fish. Everything I added was a working fish. Its alot easier to control problem microbial life when its a few small colonies than when its visible, and the only way for that to work is to have top level predators. Perhaps people skipped through my posts, but I started with water that had been sitting in the sun, so temperature wasn't much of an issue - I set the thermostat to 25 and was confused by the sticker (and my missing hydrometer which popped up in the morning) - I got up in the middle of the night and the fish were majorly aggro in the bag so I let them out, and decided that the snails and crabs could go too.

I've got all the equipment up and running now that I got o-rings and the die-off smell was not evident after my nose got recalibrated during my walk to get the o-rings - I suspect much of it was from the leakage from the faulty fluval. I've got the skimmer idling now to add oxygen (not bubbles) and at the 24 hour mark I started the filter up without charcoal.

Flies flock to light, and they are going after the floating food granules that the LFS guy strongly reccomended. I've had a nightmare august with the flies - before the lights on the aquarium went on they were an epidemic on my LCD TV i use as my media center / computer monitor that is about 2' from the tank.

I took the first negative comment pretty hard and spent most of the day retracing my actions, and the answer here is not more reading - yes, when I start into thinking about corals in the late fall or early winter, I will do reading specific to that. But i've got a pretty developed approach in the past, and I refined that to suit the awesome range of new products and diversity of tank cultured products that didn't exist locally to me when I was really into reefing in the early 2000's. But I don't waiting another 12 hours would have changed anything because the tests were almost identical as were temperature and observable conditions.

When I wrote that first email out of bed this morning I had assumed the worst a reported things as being much worse than they actually were. I probably will never know what killed those 4 damsels, but since everything else looks and acts fine i'm still chalking this up as a pretty successful build. I'm disabled and have limited funds as well as access to transportation. I think I did pretty well sifting through as much information as I did and with the budget and transportation realities I had to deal with.

[sasharotty]

Your fish were dying in the bag because of elevated ammonia levels. How long were they in bags? List all your params.

[gtron]

ammonia did not register at 24h or this morning, calcium is at 14 drops, I didnt do a buffer test yet, nitrate was negligible. I've had purigen running since 18 hours in, and I started with biospira and cycle. Slight funky smell in the room this morning but it seems to be the stone surface under the tank that got soaked more than the tank. If there was a serious biological die-off the skimmer is running enough that it would be bubbling over, and its not. I can get it to bubble harder in the column but I really want to let the fast cycle mix work and not get totally filtered out, thats why I removed the charcoal from the fluval. The tank water is now crystal clear as well.

Fish were in the bags about 4 hours before I added a bit of food, (granules, not flake - they shouldnt have spiked the ammonia and the fish were never in direct sun, and the room was 22oC with the air conditioner off since 9am but turned on ad midnight) I bought them a little after 5pm and added them in the middle of the night- i'm not a very good sleeper. I fed some granules this morning - I wish I had bought a flake as well to provide more material for the inverts and snails but there is a tad of live phyto and whats on the live sand for that in the short term. Lots of life is evident now that the daylights have come on. I'm heading back to bed until noon, not expecting anything to change for the next couple of weeks, but when I do a more full testkit later we'll see if anything changes. I'm extremely sensitive to acrid smells as well - my nose is not great at a litany of smells but for now i'm going with the test kit. I dont trust home test kits at all (mine is an "api reef master test kit" and then i've got a seperate ammonia and PH that i've had for a while, I am going to get the "api saltwater test kit" to get a newer set of those possibly this afternoon but its a 45 minute busride then 20 minute walk each way to get to the fish store, so we'll have to see how the weather is. I'm disabled (I broke the warranty on my brain a few years ago) and spending alot of time in the sun makes me go gaga, so I have to be a little choosy with travel.

I had fun watching the pistol last night, he's happily digging passages and was fighting a bit with the starfish that got in his way. I held off on adding him for almost 24 hours but I was worried he wouldn't do well. He had "joined" with the goby which is the only reason I got the pair, I was a little worried I wouldn't get a pre-joined pair for ages and I realize now that was probably too reckless. I'm happy that everything looks right on where it should be today, no sign of a dusty coating on the rocks I was worried about with the problem sand. I'm more concerned with posphate than ammonia right now, I will test for that later when i'm up for good, I dont know from talking to the owner and his description of the purity of the water how their membranes are - I would have used distilled if I did it over, but I got RO for 3.50 a 5g on senior's discount so I figured what the hell.

[gtron]

no flies overnight with just actinics - since I fed again there are 4 flies (20 mins approx) with the main lights on. So they must be mostly going after the grans

[ghostman]

Quote: "A long period cycle isn't required when you've got all dead or cured rock, RO water, live sand and quick-cycle materials, and nothing is hardier than a cleanup crew."

Perhaps you are reading, but not comprehending the information as you are doing the opposite of what is recommended to start a reef tank. I wish you the best of luck, but you are going way too fast, not allowing a cycle to occur, killing fish and inverts (with no remorse), and not listening to the information given to you. You have a lot of confidence in what you are doing, perhaps more than someone with 14 posts should have.

Please read the stickies at the top. Allow your tank to cycle while you research the proper techniques to start a reef tank, and stop throwing animals and money into your tank and down the drain. I hope this is not too harsh, but how many threads have you seen about flies buzzing around reef tanks? I've been reefing for 20 years and have not encountered such a problem. It may be an indication that something is seriously wrong with your reef and reef husbandry. Just my opinion.

[Dave Thebrewguy]

Something is wrong here. For starters, 4'x1'x36" (48x12x36) is 90 gal, not 40. There are a number of other details that are "off" as well.

[Dapg8gt]

I think this is a fake thread. It can't be real. I don't know why I keep responding to this guy.. He is a know it all already yet asking for advice and going against most every thing people address. I don. Get it. It didn't happen without pics.... And flies!!!! Really. Never had or heard of anyone saying the tank must be doing good as there is only a few flies now Lol. This is hilarious.. But I do feel bad for his livestock in all reality.. If it makes it or not..

[ghostman]

Dapg8gt is probably right on. I also think it's a fake thread. While I hate responding to such ridiculous statements, I would hate to see a real noobie see this thread in a search and follow some of the advice. I really would like to get some of that fine Lake Huron sand though :)

[Soverntear]

Anything in the world is only as good as it foundation. By starting with dirty sources the chance of contaminates is quite high. Considering most reefs strive for stability and control it seems to be a poor idea to deliberately give it a bad start. Head the advice on this forum it could very well save a fishes life.

[Dapg8gt]

Lol!! It is a pretty far fetched fake thread though.. Too much detail. I'm on the fence with this one I think he just thinks he's doing it right but in reality is totally wrong on most fronts. It's just not the right way to start a successful reef. Maybe in 1975 it would be kosher but with all the research and info at your disposal on the Internet and RC why not follow it. Again I'm not trying to sound like a Richard here but if this is a real thread/scenario you need to do some more research(and follow the info) and get the right equipment. Or else it will be a doomed project forever. You may have things that SURVIVE but it will not be what you are hoping or thinking. And FYI flies and reef tanks are not an indicator of good health.. And you should never keep fish/inverts in bags longer than you have to. The water gets toxic fairly fast an they will be out the door before they even have a chance to start there battle in your environment.

[gtron]

this is not a fake thread. I only got a minimal cleanup crew on direct advice of the LFS. I've been watching the tank numbers. I'll post a pic in a second because its finally clear enough water to take one. Originally I was planning to make use of a free aquarium (which by the way is 40"x18"x12" i goofed, its definitely 40g because 30g of water and the rock filled it to the top) and wanted to go as cheap as possible, but that idea didn't last very long and over the month or so of serious planning as you can see over this thread, I abandoned any ideas for an experimental tank after reading tons and tons of stuff and remembering more from the past. So instead I went and secured more funds to do everything as right as possible.

Re; the fly question. I live in a neighborhood by a ravine teeming with relatively wild animals (for the city) and one off-shoot of that is that alot of them come in the cat-door which for the other 11 months of the year is not a problem insect wise (occasionally a rabbit gets in and can't get out though. I release them unharmed if I get them before the cats do.) In august there are alot of flies, evidenced by the former basement light source between 10am and 11pm being my 40" LCD right beside where the tank is now, and on either side of that LCD I had to put hanging spiral glue-sticks because the flies drove me mad GOING AFTER THE LIGHT. Now there are no flies on the LCD because they are drawn to the 10k light like mad. There were no dead flies during the night with the actinic, and here's the real science through observation: when I fed the tank and turned on the daylights (I dont have the timers going yet) and fed the tank - the flies started going after the granules that hadn't sunk or been sucked into the filter yet. Now there are 6 floating in an eddy caused by the heater that I will have to deal with, but I like to be hands off for at least a couple of weeks as much as possible.

Too many hobbyists have a god complex and want to play puppeteer, and then later want validation for their personal technique. I much prefer to stick with the fundamentals of systematics. But to start piling on (unrepentant?) I was pretty sad when the fish died, and I feared the worst at that point. I had a pretty miserable couple of hours where I was all doom and gloom, but after a headcount later on I realized very little had died - and with the death specific to one thing - other than the 3 missing crabs that bailed (while I was watching) out of their shells that wouldn't sink - and the 4 damsels (still no idea but it WASNT ammonia and it WASNT nitrate and it WASNT phosphate - how the hell do you expect a system to ever reach ideal equilibrium if you don't start close to an equilibrium?

I did listen to a fair bit of advice in this forum although probably because of my rambling alot of my questions went unanswered and I found contradictory answers on google (which doesnt seem as good a search engine for this sort of thing as it was 10 years ago) - and it jangled loose my past experience pretty fast. I doubt that I ever would have gone with tapwater and (very beautiful looking, from a prime beach not gunky polluted ****) silica sand.

I think several people here are guilty for not reading the thread, being intentionally beligerent and pigheaded, especially the comments about me not feeling for the dead fish and the total BS about the flies. And then to assume its a joke thread, the only joke is that the behavior of the last few posters pretty much soured what I intended to be a long term stay on this forum.

http://i48.*******.com/nf5mr.jpg starting out, very cloudy
http://i49.*******.com/orqdn9.jpg this morning, note the flies barely visible in the eddy by the heater. And the heater is there for a reason, its the highest current point in the very good 360o current path.

[gtron]

I didnt realize those were going to inline rather than attach, sorry for dumping big pics. I havent used a forum in a long time.

[sasharotty]

Pig headed?? Im sorry op you are getting good replies and your just discounting them. You DO have ammonia or nitrite that kiiled your fish and inverts. You stuck fish and inverts in a bag for 4+ hours and added food to the bag. I think you think you know more than you do. And you said in a previous post reading more isnt the answer. Im sorry it is because you dont know how to start a reef and your lfs is giving you horrible advice. I asked on a previous post what was your params and you never answered. I saw that your "going" to get an api test kit. So how do you know you dont have any ammonia nitrite etc if you cant even test for them? And you call damsels "work" fish. They are hardier but if all 4 died you have serious issues. This thread is all kinds of...........:angryfire:

[Dapg8gt]

Yeah you don't know what your talking about. Did you even acclimate the fish other than floating them? You discredit all the responses with an answer you feel is right when most say it's wrong. So good luck on your tank. And a little word of advice most people on here are not trying to screw you. Most have made mistakes in this hobby. I think most take advice and don't have the I know what I'm doing attitude when obviously you don't. Good luck... You will need it.

[mistacheese]

Subscribed...

And come on guys, I think that sand is fine... wink :)

http://christopherfinch.smugmug.com/Family/Cayden-at-the-cottage/IMG3113/644637475_Ez5g9-L.jpg