Guys HELP- GFCI cutting my power out while I'm at work

[Reefahholic]

I don't know what happened, but it just started doing it.

In my DT tank area, I have 9 plugs plugged into a technical pro power bar which obviously plugs into one electrical outlet. Mag 9.5 return, skimmer, heater, x2 MJ1200, 4-bulb T5'S, small sump light, x2 Hydor evolution 1400's

Just beside my tank, My QT tank is plugged into another outlet with a DJ 8 Plug power bar (with only 4 switches being used). Small standard 29/g light, heater, Hydor K 750, and aquaclear 70.

Both of the above have GFCI'S.

I noticed tonight that when I reset the GFCI'S and turn everything back on, the power cut out again. So I did it again and same thing. So the next time I cut everything on but the return pump and power came on. So when I tried to cut the return pump on, it knocked the power back out twice. This doesn't happen all the time though, just randomly. Thank God none of my fish died the first two times. My starfish did though.

So what do I do? I guess my outlets may be overloaded?!?


Ohh and forgot to mention, my living room has a GFCI (not being used) and they are apparently all linked together. So I have to reset all of them (3) when power goes off to get the DT going.

[tkeracer619]

Are there any plugs that are not gfci? Plug your return pump into a normal outlet.

GFCI don't last forever. Its probably just time to replace them.

[Metal Man 1221]

It's a little hard to make complete sense of what you are explaining, but are your saying that you have multiple GFCIs running off each other?

[Reefahholic]

Are there any plugs that are not gfci? Plug your return pump into a normal outlet.

GFCI don't last forever. Its probably just time to replace them.


No, I just installed both outlets in that area with GFCI'S. They are both new. :headwalls:

[ReefPharmer]

is it possible that some of the equipment is leaking current? I believe that would trip the gfci

[Reefahholic]

It's a little hard to make complete sense of what you are explaining, but are your saying that you have multiple GFCIs running off each other?


I thought originally that where you set up a tank that you need to have a GFCI, and now it seems as though they are all linked together in that one wire.

I originally just installed one in the outlet behind my DT. Then, I set up a QT in my living room so I could observe my fish while watching TV. Then later, I moved it to my dinning room so it could be by my DT because I sit on my love seat by the DT all the time. I figured it would be better to have both tanks by one another for maintenance purposes.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/JaredJHarms/2f682ee5.jpg

So now, the GFCI in the living room is not being used. It's behind the brown chair. However, when they trip, they ALL 3 TRIP AND ALL 3 have to be reset. It sucks.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/JaredJHarms/5e6afe4e.jpg

I think my return pump is too much power for that outlet behind my DT. Is there a way I could get an electrician to upgrade that outlet to give me a bit more power there?

[tkeracer619]

Its probably a 15a circuit. Nothing can be done short of running a new line. However. I seriously doubt you are even close to maxing it out. To run a new line would cost a couple hundred. I am running a 15a and (2) 20a circuits for my 360 but it can use over 3500w.

I think the problem is the 3 gfci. You only need one. It protects everything down the line.

Change the first two in the line back to normal outlets and leave the final gfci as the only one. Put the returns on the normal outlet and then the rest of the hardware on the gfci outlet. You will be under 15a and if the gfci trips it doesn't kill the tanks. You can put around 1450 watts on a 15a circuit. That is 12a constant. Add up all your equipment and see where you are. You can also get a kill-a-watt to see what your equipment really pulls at the hardware store.

My parents house when I was growing up would loose a gfci in the garage and the downstairs bathroom when I would run the air compressor. Unless you reset them both the doorbell wouldn't work :lol:.

[heathlindner25]

you could be overloaded, do you have a meter?

[Reefahholic]

Its probably a 15a circuit. Nothing can be done short of running a new line. However. I seriously doubt you are even close to maxing it out. To run a new line would cost a couple hundred. I am running a 15a and (2) 20a circuits for my 360 but it can use over 3500w.

I think the problem is the 3 gfci. You only need one. It protects everything down the line.

Change the first two in the line back to normal outlets and leave the final gfci as the only one. Put the returns on the normal outlet and then the rest of the hardware on the gfci outlet. You will be under 15a and if the gfci trips it doesn't kill the tanks. You can put around 1450 watts on a 15a circuit. That is 12a constant. Add up all your equipment and see where you are. You can also get a kill-a-watt to see what your equipment really pulls at the hardware store.

My parents house when I was growing up would loose a gfci in the garage and the downstairs bathroom when I would run the air compressor. Unless you reset them both the doorbell wouldn't work :lol:.

ok, I'll have to try that.

That's funny about the doorbell. I bet your mother would get ticked.:spin1:

[Reefahholic]

you could be overloaded, do you have a meter?


no, how much is a meter? how do you get a reading just plug it in the outlet?

[tkeracer619]

Yup. When I don't need it I leave my heaters plugged into it. That way I can see their actual watt draw. If I only have 360 watts but both 250w heaters are on one of them is going bad.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

[Soggytoes]

same thing was happening to me when I had stray voltage from my light fixture.

[StaghornE]

You can get 20a gfci typically installed in kitchen apps. If that would help.

[Chris27]

You can get 20a gfci typically installed in kitchen apps. If that would help.

That's only a valid idea if the wire running from the breaker panel is rated for 20A service....just changing an outlet from one rated at 15A to 20A won't provide more "juice".

[A sea K]

Its probably a 15a circuit. Nothing can be done short of running a new line. However. I seriously doubt you are even close to maxing it out. To run a new line would cost a couple hundred. I am running a 15a and (2) 20a circuits for my 360 but it can use over 3500w.

I think the problem is the 3 gfci. You only need one. It protects everything down the line.

Change the first two in the line back to normal outlets and leave the final gfci as the only one. Put the returns on the normal outlet and then the rest of the hardware on the gfci outlet. You will be under 15a and if the gfci trips it doesn't kill the tanks. You can put around 1450 watts on a 15a circuit. That is 12a constant. Add up all your equipment and see where you are. You can also get a kill-a-watt to see what your equipment really pulls at the hardware store.

Good idea but I have found outlet type gfci to be overly sensitive and not very reliable. You could locate that circuits breaker (breaker panel) and exchange the breaker with a gfci breaker and eliminate all of the outlet gfci.
As a note, and this is a sensitve area, some may agree and some may not. After much reading I have made the personal choice to use a grounding probe. From what I can remember it is needed for the gfci to function correctly.

[Reefahholic]

Ok, I'll check into it.

Yeah my GFCI's are all grounded.

I think the problem is this. This technical pro 9 plug power bar may be crap. I may switch it to the QT where there isn't as much juice going to it.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/JaredJHarms/08bec124.jpg

[A sea K]

Ok, I'll check into it.

Yeah my GFCI's are all grounded.



Just to clarify, the grounding probe is for the tank itself, your gfci will be grounded back to the main panel through the wiring circuit.

[Reefahholic]

Just to clarify, the grounding probe is for the tank itself, your gfci will be grounded back to the main panel through the wiring circuit.


ohh, I thought you were talking about the green wire on the GFCI. :spin3:

[Reefahholic]

Yup. When I don't need it I leave my heaters plugged into it. That way I can see their actual watt draw. If I only have 360 watts but both 250w heaters are on one of them is going bad.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

OK, thanks for the link. I pick one up.

[bambam918]

I was going to install a GFI for my display tank however, my uncle who is a master electrition said if I have everything plugged into my American DJ power strip then there is no need to have a GFI. One of his concerns is what you are experiencing. I saw remove the GFI and have everything plugged into your American DJ. Make sure your power strips are off the ground just in case of flood or spill over.

[Reefahholic]

same thing was happening to me when I had stray voltage from my light fixture.

When I removed the tech pro, I found salt creep on the back of it and water. I think from my main drain splashing when the water hits the sump on initial start up.

Maybe that was it.

Anyway, I went ahead and switched the tech pro over to my qt and moved the DJ (Better quality and more reliable) to my DT.

Will see what happens. :smokin:

[Reefahholic]

I was going to install a GFI for my display tank however, my uncle who is a master electrition said if I have everything plugged into my American DJ power strip then there is no need to have a GFI. One of his concerns is what you are experiencing. I saw remove the GFI and have everything plugged into your American DJ. Make sure your power strips are off the ground just in case of flood or spill over.

Hmm, I didn't know you could do that.

I did notice the tech pro had a fuse inline. So im sure it would blow if a major power surge happened.

The DJ does have a reset button, but does it have a built in GFCI?

[coralsnaked]

GFCI Ground Fault Circut Interceptor is designed to trip when there is a fast spike in current. Protects someone from dropping an electrical appliance in water ect... They are notorious however from tripping when they get warm, and a steady load on them will trip them after a period of time. They do get weaker over time and need to be replaced every five years or so if used frequently. They should be used in bathrooms and kitchens where appliances are used near water sources. If you have more than one in a circuit like multiple bathrooms, kitchen and garage plug; when one trips they all will. No appliance that is considdered critical should ever be plugged into GFCI plugs. This includes freezers, refrigerators and aquariums. Get your system off of that plug circuit and on to a normal circuit with a 20 amp breaker in the panel. If you are drawing over 20 amps on your system you have a HOG. There are 120 watts in an ampere, so a 20 amp breaker will sustain a steady stream of 2400 watts. Only heating could draw enough amps to pop that breaker, and theres no way your heaters are drawing that hard. However if you have multiple other household items on that leg from the circuit IE refrigeration, lighting, ect... then you can see where the breaker could overload if everything is on at one time.. But the wiring is not anything that would need to be upgraded, you could need to change the breaker in the panel if it has become weak from years of service, but let a qualified electrition determine that and change if needed. But get your aquarium(s) off of the GFCI plugs and let your power strips handle the overload.

[A sea K]

GFCI Ground Fault Circut Interceptor is designed to trip when there is a fast spike in current. Protects someone from dropping an electrical appliance in water ect... No appliance that is considdered critical should ever be plugged into GFCI plugs. This includes freezers, refrigerators and aquariums. Get your system off of that plug circuit and on to a normal circuit with a 20 amp breaker in the panel.

WOW!, this is the first time I have heard anyone advise against using a GFCI in an aquarium situation. Not for me thankyou, my tank is just fine running on its own dedicated circuit that IS gfci protected.

[dunk373]

i will never own a tank without a ground probe or gfci. You can use a 20a gfci on a 15 a service you can't put a 20a breaker on 14 g wire. so 15a breaker 14g wire 20a gfci outlet and only one. power strips suck they catch fire short internally and trip gfi outlets urchins chew through power cords but all will be protected with a gfci. the gfci outlets work better than the breakers and are much less expensive. I have dropped my light in the water before and have had water drip on a power strip with and without gfci the diff. is gfci trips almost immediately without one it cooks and burns and could catch on fire a 15a breaker takes like 30min to trip while pulling 16a and a few minutes to trip at 20a (these times are estimated). you can't run gfi in series its useless only use one to control the tank or pull a new wire to the tank snap a breaker in and gfi that outlet. oh and gfci won't work on current like said above its exactly what it says gfci ground fault circuit interrupter it reads current from ground to hot thats it. so if you have no ground probe on your cord it won't work properly but if a 2 wire circ pump shorts in the tank with a ground probe it will protect you and livestock. Remember all grounds and neutrals are connected in your panel box they go to the same place. and thats grounded outside with a probe driven into the actual earth ground 8ft down.

[alton]

i will never own a tank without a ground probe or gfci. You can use a 20a gfci on a 15 a service you can't put a 20a breaker on 14 g wire. so 15a breaker 14g wire 20a gfci outlet and only one. power strips suck they catch fire short internally and trip gfi outlets urchins chew through power cords but all will be protected with a gfci. the gfci outlets work better than the breakers and are much less expensive. I have dropped my light in the water before and have had water drip on a power strip with and without gfci the diff. is gfci trips almost immediately without one it cooks and burns and could catch on fire a 15a breaker takes like 30min to trip while pulling 16a and a few minutes to trip at 20a (these times are estimated). you can't run gfi in series its useless only use one to control the tank or pull a new wire to the tank snap a breaker in and gfi that outlet. oh and gfci won't work on current like said above its exactly what it says gfci ground fault circuit interrupter it reads current from ground to hot thats it. so if you have no ground probe on your cord it won't work properly but if a 2 wire circ pump shorts in the tank with a ground probe it will protect you and livestock. Remember all grounds and neutrals are connected in your panel box they go to the same place. and thats grounded outside with a probe driven into the actual earth ground 8ft down.

Not perfect but very close, thanks for posting. The only thing I would add is the only place Grounding (green/bare) and Grounded (White) wires can be bonded is at the service. If you have a service panel feeding a secondary panel the the two must be seperated at the second panel.

[Chris27]

WOW!, this is the first time I have heard anyone advise against using a GFCI in an aquarium situation. Not for me thankyou, my tank is just fine running on its own dedicated circuit that IS gfci protected.

I also don't run my tanks on GFCI's, they are too wishy washy for me in regards to reliability. There are many of us who run from regular ol' receptacles for that reason....I don't want to come home to a powerless tank. Given how well tanks are insulated from ground, their is little chance that your livestock will be zapped, and with a few little precautions, there isn't much of a chance that I'll be electrocuted while working on it.

[Jeff000]

So much mis information in this thread. Wow, just wow.


Good idea but I have found outlet type gfci to be overly sensitive and not very reliable. You could locate that circuits breaker (breaker panel) and exchange the breaker with a gfci breaker and eliminate all of the outlet gfci.
As a note, and this is a sensitve area, some may agree and some may not. After much reading I have made the personal choice to use a grounding probe. From what I can remember it is needed for the gfci to function correctly.

A GFCI breaker is better than receptacle.

A ground probe is NOT needed for GFCI.


I do NOT recomend a ground probe.
Think of your tank as a powerline. And your arm in the tank as a bird on that powerline.
Now think of the ground probe as the metal crane coming into contact with the powerline. Boom.
Without the probe all you have is voltage, which is naturally occuring in moving salt water, add a probe and now you have current. Current kills you.


I was going to install a GFI for my display tank however, my uncle who is a master electrition said if I have everything plugged into my American DJ power strip then there is no need to have a GFI. One of his concerns is what you are experiencing. I saw remove the GFI and have everything plugged into your American DJ. Make sure your power strips are off the ground just in case of flood or spill over.

I have no idea why your uncle would suggest an expensive power bar. A cheap one will do the same, and light on fire just the same. Installing the power bar in an apropriate location is best, or install more receptacles into the wall.

The power bar is not a GFCI, just to make that clear to anyone reading.


GFCI Ground Fault Circut Interceptor is designed to trip when there is a fast spike in current. Protects someone from dropping an electrical appliance in water ect... They are notorious however from tripping when they get warm, and a steady load on them will trip them after a period of time. They do get weaker over time and need to be replaced every five years or so if used frequently. They should be used in bathrooms and kitchens where appliances are used near water sources. If you have more than one in a circuit like multiple bathrooms, kitchen and garage plug; when one trips they all will. No appliance that is considdered critical should ever be plugged into GFCI plugs. This includes freezers, refrigerators and aquariums. Get your system off of that plug circuit and on to a normal circuit with a 20 amp breaker in the panel. If you are drawing over 20 amps on your system you have a HOG. There are 120 watts in an ampere, so a 20 amp breaker will sustain a steady stream of 2400 watts. Only heating could draw enough amps to pop that breaker, and theres no way your heaters are drawing that hard. However if you have multiple other household items on that leg from the circuit IE refrigeration, lighting, ect... then you can see where the breaker could overload if everything is on at one time.. But the wiring is not anything that would need to be upgraded, you could need to change the breaker in the panel if it has become weak from years of service, but let a qualified electrition determine that and change if needed. But get your aquarium(s) off of the GFCI plugs and let your power strips handle the overload.

FALSE, False False, False!!!!
GFCI monitors in and out current and trips when there is a difference.

A breaker trips when there is a spike (above rated) in current.

A 20a breaker is rated for 1920 watts of sustained use. 2400 intermitent use only. 2400watts for a sustained period will trip it. 2200 or 2300 for a long time could trip it depending on other factors and panel brand.

Power strips are NOT for handling overload. They are to provide convienence. The breaker is to handle the overload.


i will never own a tank without a ground probe or gfci. You can use a 20a gfci on a 15 a service you can't put a 20a breaker on 14 g wire. so 15a breaker 14g wire 20a gfci outlet and only one. power strips suck they catch fire short internally and trip gfi outlets urchins chew through power cords but all will be protected with a gfci. the gfci outlets work better than the breakers and are much less expensive. I have dropped my light in the water before and have had water drip on a power strip with and without gfci the diff. is gfci trips almost immediately without one it cooks and burns and could catch on fire a 15a breaker takes like 30min to trip while pulling 16a and a few minutes to trip at 20a (these times are estimated). you can't run gfi in series its useless only use one to control the tank or pull a new wire to the tank snap a breaker in and gfi that outlet. oh and gfci won't work on current like said above its exactly what it says gfci ground fault circuit interrupter it reads current from ground to hot thats it. so if you have no ground probe on your cord it won't work properly but if a 2 wire circ pump shorts in the tank with a ground probe it will protect you and livestock. Remember all grounds and neutrals are connected in your panel box they go to the same place. and thats grounded outside with a probe driven into the actual earth ground 8ft down.

GFCI breakers work better than the GFCI receptacles.

GROUND PROBES ARE NOT NEEDED FOR A GFCI TO WORK
Whoever started that is wrong, and that mis information needs to stop.

If a two wire circruit drops into a tank, it'll trip the breaker. If you have a ground probe the water between the probe and the circuit will see a HUGE spike in current. Fun test, go and put a amp meter on the ground probe, yup reading slight current, now set the meter to measure inrush and drop a 15a circuit in there, wow hundreds of amps for a milisecond. Fun stuff.

All grounds and nuetrals are connected at the first point of disconnect, this will not always be the panel.

System grounds for homes are often just tied to the rebar in the foundation, or a plate in the ground.



I also don't run my tanks on GFCI's, they are too wishy washy for me in regards to reliability. There are many of us who run from regular ol' receptacles for that reason....I don't want to come home to a powerless tank. Given how well tanks are insulated from ground, their is little chance that your livestock will be zapped, and with a few little precautions, there isn't much of a chance that I'll be electrocuted while working on it.

I also do not runa GFCI, anything major will trip a breaker, and if I feel a tingle when I stick my hand in the tank I will look into it.
There would have to be so many things wrong for something to happen where when you stick your hand in the tank you get electrocuted.

[A sea K]

As a note, and this is a sensitve area, some may agree and some may not. After much reading I have made the personal choice to use a grounding probe. From what I can remember it is needed for the gfci to function correctly.

Ok Jeff000, You have me quoting myself and you seem to know what your talking about. As I said in my previous post,"After much reading I have made the PERSONAL choice to use a grounding probe." So tell me, is it in any way harmfull or detrimental to use a grounding probe in conjunction with a GFCI and if so please explain. Don't get me wrong, I would really like to know for myself and correct a potentially dangerous situation if it does exist.

[Jeff000]

Ok Jeff000, You have me quoting myself and you seem to know what your talking about. As I said in my previous post,"After much reading I have made the PERSONAL choice to use a grounding probe." So tell me, is it in any way harmfull or detrimental to use a grounding probe in conjunction with a GFCI and if so please explain. Don't get me wrong, I would really like to know for myself and correct a potentially dangerous situation if it does exist.

Well the ground probe is not needed for a gfci, it wont hinder the use of it either though. My biggest point was just that you do not need a ground probe for a gfci.

As an electrician I don't agree with the ground probe, basically for my above analogy. Most of the documents I've read on them read more like propaganda than anything.

[dunk373]

well i had voltage in my tank and livestock wasn't happy i added gfci and ground probe and it tripped I traced it to a bad power strip I have to say voltage is weird and can do crazy things I ground it so i'm not the ground i i wore shoes all the time i'd be fine and i i didn't have cuts on my fingers i wouldn't get the tingle. I now even with all this have 14v in my tank well my tanks the ground, and the power is coming from my concrete basement floor I killed the main and when barefoot i still get voltage from my tank to ground. I just believe in gfci and ground probe. It is safer than nothing If you dont believe me pour water on a power strip that has a gfi and one that doesn't and tell me what you would rather have.

[Reefahholic]

Very good information guys!

Thanks...

I think I need to reduce my GFCI's to only two.


One on qt and DT, and get rid of the tech pro. Power hasn't went out yet with the DJ, so we'll see. Fingers crossed...

[Jeff000]

well i had voltage in my tank and livestock wasn't happy i added gfci and ground probe and it tripped I traced it to a bad power strip I have to say voltage is weird and can do crazy things I ground it so i'm not the ground i i wore shoes all the time i'd be fine and i i didn't have cuts on my fingers i wouldn't get the tingle. I now even with all this have 14v in my tank well my tanks the ground, and the power is coming from my concrete basement floor I killed the main and when barefoot i still get voltage from my tank to ground. I just believe in gfci and ground probe. It is safer than nothing If you dont believe me pour water on a power strip that has a gfi and one that doesn't and tell me what you would rather have.

Your tank is not the same potential as the ground, which shows up as voltage.
Moving salt water creates a voltage, most lighting induces a voltage.

Voltage doesn't really do much that is crazy. If you get a tingle while barefoot and hand in the tank with your main off... then you have a larger issue at hand. Or something running off battery.

A bad power strip will NOT cause voltage in your tank.
GFCI receptacles don't generally like power strips, makes them finicky.

Pouring water on a power strip will trip the breaker, its the small amounts that you need to worry about.
That said you should NEVER put a power strip somewhere that water could pour onto it, or even drip onto it.
That said, avoid the use of a power strip if at all possible. They are seldom a good idea in any location, even less around water, gfci or not.

As I said, you are welcome to use a ground probe, and a GFCI.
I am simply stating my opinion with some facts. And making sure people know that you DO NOT need a ground probe for a gfci.

[Jeff000]

Very good information guys!

Thanks...

I think I need to reduce my GFCI's to only two.


One on qt and DT, and get rid of the tech pro. Power hasn't went out yet with the DJ, so we'll see. Fingers crossed...

If they are on the same circuit you only need one GFCI, it will protect down line devices too when wired to do so.
The biggest thing is just to make sure they are wired correctly if you have them both on the same line.

[Reefahholic]

Jeff what do you recommend I do?

Limit to one, two, or zero GFCI's.

Or get rid of the tech pro and get another DJ power strip. I think the tech pro was tripping the GFCI when I turned the return pump on for some reason.

Not sure what it was yet.

I know I'm getting rid of the 3rd GFCI that's not being used.

That will elimate at least one tripping while I'm at work.

[dunk373]

I think my voltage is coming from the ground earth from my buried power supply. I have had tingle while working on air conditioners. Touch the sweating line while kneeling on damp dirt. I believe a lot of power supplies leak small voltages. Power strips do go bad and they recommend replacing every two years. And the one I had was called a squid it had 6 cords out and one in the wall it had been wet and it was causing my problem so if they do get wet even a little bit chuck them and get new

[Jeff000]

Jeff what do you recommend I do?

Limit to one, two, or zero GFCI's.

Or get rid of the tech pro and get another DJ power strip. I think the tech pro was tripping the GFCI when I turned the return pump on for some reason.

Not sure what it was yet.

I know I'm getting rid of the 3rd GFCI that's not being used.

That will elimate at least one tripping while I'm at work.

What you should do is up to you.
If you are going to run GFCI, use only one, they are designed so you can protect all down line devices with one. Sometimes having another one down line can cause some strange tripping that you can never really figure out.

You should mount the power bars to the wall or in some way that water can't just drip into it. Make sure cords have a drip loop, so any water on them will run lower than the power bar and drip off rather then right into it.



I think my voltage is coming from the ground earth from my buried power supply. I have had tingle while working on air conditioners. Touch the sweating line while kneeling on damp dirt. I believe a lot of power supplies leak small voltages. Power strips do go bad and they recommend replacing every two years. And the one I had was called a squid it had 6 cords out and one in the wall it had been wet and it was causing my problem so if they do get wet even a little bit chuck them and get new

Buried power supply? Do you mean your service? The cable coming from the street transformer to your meter?
If that was damaged you would have huge voltage issues in your house. And there isn't enough voltage in for you to be able to feel anything outside of mere inches from the damage, and even then i'd have to be really damp dirt.

That AC tingle issue is from improper bonding of the unit.

Those squids are generally pretty good if they are the same ones I am thinking about, see them on job sites a lot, and seem to take a lot of damage before failure.

[tkeracer619]

Not for me thankyou, my tank is just fine running on its own dedicated circuit that IS gfci protected.

Do you have a battery backup?

[A sea K]

Do you have a battery backup?

No, but I do have a generator.

[bambam918]

GFCI Ground Fault Circut Interceptor is designed to trip when there is a fast spike in current. Protects someone from dropping an electrical appliance in water ect... They are notorious however from tripping when they get warm, and a steady load on them will trip them after a period of time. They do get weaker over time and need to be replaced every five years or so if used frequently. They should be used in bathrooms and kitchens where appliances are used near water sources. If you have more than one in a circuit like multiple bathrooms, kitchen and garage plug; when one trips they all will. No appliance that is considdered critical should ever be plugged into GFCI plugs. This includes freezers, refrigerators and aquariums. Get your system off of that plug circuit and on to a normal circuit with a 20 amp breaker in the panel. If you are drawing over 20 amps on your system you have a HOG. There are 120 watts in an ampere, so a 20 amp breaker will sustain a steady stream of 2400 watts. Only heating could draw enough amps to pop that breaker, and theres no way your heaters are drawing that hard. However if you have multiple other household items on that leg from the circuit IE refrigeration, lighting, ect... then you can see where the breaker could overload if everything is on at one time.. But the wiring is not anything that would need to be upgraded, you could need to change the breaker in the panel if it has become weak from years of service, but let a qualified electrition determine that and change if needed. But get your aquarium(s) off of the GFCI plugs and let your power strips handle the overload.

I agree no need to have your system plugged into GFI

[Chris27]

It's nice to see some actual theory was injected into this thread, I get so tired of the standard "if you don't have a gfi and ground probe, you and your fish will die" answer.

[mm949]

you should not run gfi outlets in series, they could be tripping each other...easy fix is rewire the outlet so the rest of the line is not on the load side, this way one will not trip them all, or pigtail the outlet off the main wires in the box.
gfi outlets are better than a breaker because they just trip that outlet and not ALL of them.
if you bought the gfi outlets new, read the instructions for different methods of installation

[Reefahholic]

OK, Jeff....

Looking back at the pictures...the GFCI behind the leather chair in my living-room where my QT was- that's not being used anymore will trip itself and the second two back down the line.

The one before that is my QT which will trip itself and my DT.

The last one, (my DT) will only trip itself and not the second two inline.

So...I'm guessing maybe keep the middle one since it will trip itself and the DT??

Or...would it be safer to keep just the DT one that will only trip itself?

I really want the protection on both tanks being that I worked construction the first half of my life and you didn't plug anything into a power supply without being GFCI protected.

I'm not an electrician, but have seen them save life's.

[dunk373]

I'll say once I witnessed water dripping on an outlet without gfi I put a gfi on my tank. Also on a power strip. If the power strip was near a couch or any combustible there would've been a fire

[Jeff000]

OK, Jeff....

Looking back at the pictures...the GFCI behind the leather chair in my living-room where my QT was- that's not being used anymore will trip itself and the second two back down the line.

The one before that is my QT which will trip itself and my DT.

The last one, (my DT) will only trip itself and not the second two inline.

So...I'm guessing maybe keep the middle one since it will trip itself and the DT??

Or...would it be safer to keep just the DT one that will only trip itself?

I really want the protection on both tanks being that I worked construction the first half of my life and you didn't plug anything into a power supply without being GFCI protected.

I'm not an electrician, but have seen them save life's.

Take the chair one out, it's not doing anything.

Take the QT one and look and see how it is wired (turn the breaker off, or call an electrician) and make sure nothing is in the load side. Only line.

Then go to your DT and do the same.

You don't want an issue with one tank to take out the other tank too.


I'll say once I witnessed water dripping on an outlet without gfi I put a gfi on my tank. Also on a power strip. If the power strip was near a couch or any combustible there would've been a fire

You once saw water dripping on an outlet? So you put your tank on GFCI protection, I'm going to guess via a GFCI receptacle. And then you saw water dripping onto a power bar as well so you put a GFCI power bar in too?

Anyways, as I said before. Engineer the hazard out first. Seeing water drip into a power bar is a situation that just plain should not happen regardless of how sloppy you are with your water changes or whatever.

If you are doing a fish room... put your receptacles high. The water would need to jump a couple feet up for it to get into my receptacles. If you are just using existing, the wall lower then the tank is fine, but make sure your cords have a drip loop so any water on them doesn't go right into it, and maybe not use the one right behind the tank if you don't need to. So now the only way water is getting in is if it goes down the wall, in which case a GFCI won't be the fire saver, as the physical connections in the box will be what gets compromised. If you are really worried, use a weather resistant twist lock device with a weather resistant face plate, it'll be good for all but being actually under water. But if you want you can get devices that will be good for that.

For power bars. These are probably the worst thing to use anywhere around water in any application. But if you are going to use them, do not just put them on the floor and plug everything in, gravity will just make it too easy for water to get in. Mount it to the wall, and make sure the cords have a drip loop, or mount it inside your stand upside down even. It's way to easy to make sure water just can't actually get into it over protecting it from when water does get in.

[dunk373]

^^^ I just use a gfci receptacle i do agree thats the right way in a perfect world but sometimes we have to do things to get by temporarily or our schedules don't allow time to run all new outlets. Most people have power strips and a lot are on the floor. I now have a much better setup but it took a long time to do. I now only have one powerstrip and its my eb8 on the apex but accidents do happen when working on my setup water seems to find a way anywhere. Sometimes my hands are wet while plugging and unplugging.

[Reefahholic]

So I can use the GFCI's, but cap the load wires on both?

It will still function as GFCI, but not knock each other off?

[alton]

Using a powerline and a bird doesn't work because your feet are on the ground

Here was one of three test that I have done with GFCI receptacles and breakers

GFCI Part #2

Okay well the last two weeks have been interesting. I received a power head from Shagman that was shocking him and ran into all sorts of problems with it not tripping GFCI receptacles. It wasn’t until I let it sit a few days in water did it rear its ugly head to where it leaked enough current to trip the GFCI with help from a grounding probe. Because my equipment is not sensitive to pick up low amounts of current I was not able to check to see what or how much current it took to finally trip the GFCI receptacles and breaker. They should trip with 4 to 6 milli-amps.
The following are my test results;
Bad pump and nicked cord on pump
At first I was getting 48 volts and no tripping even with a grounding probe
I was getting a slight tingle when I placed my finger in the water. With a ground probe the shock was eliminated
Used several GFCI receptacles and still no tripping
Sealed the back of the pump with silicone thinking I could seal the pump, tested it several days later and it seemed to work. Voltage was down and no shocking.
Left the pump and cord in the water for several days and the animal reared its ugly head again
This time on the test I had sixty-five volts and a slight shock being bare foot on a tile floor (DO NOT TRY THIS PLEASE) and no trip on the GFCI receptacles or breaker.
Added a ground probe to the water and a immediate trip on receptacles and breaker
I also used an Arc Fault Breaker and no trip even with the grounding probe installed

In following up, a grounding probe is a must for protection to get GFCI receptacles to work properly if the power head does not contain one plus the protection you get from stray voltage from open lamps and internal pumps. Since I did not have a bad power head with a grounding conductor I can not tell you for sure if you would be protected not using a grounding probe? Using a GFCI with out the grounding probe you may still get a shock when placing your hand into your aquarium.
Remember to always check/test your GFCI to see that it works. Nothing worse than thinking you are protected when you are not.

Also you are not protected using just Arc Fault breakers!

On another project I ran into only having five volts and getting an extreme shock because the home did not have a sufficient ground rod at the service and it was using the aquarium for a ground.

Before using a grounding probe you must check or have an electrician check to see if your service is well grounded and also check the receptacle you will be installing the probe to.

Materials:
Pass and Seymour GFCI receptacles
General Electric Panel
General Electric GFCI Breaker
General Electric AFCI Breaker
Bad Power Head
Grounding Probe
Bucket of Water
Fluke Meter

[alton]

The following is a chart from Jade Learning that shows different levels of amperage and how it can affect people with 1 second of contact:
1 ma (.001 amps) – Perception level and slight tingle
5 ma (.005 amps) – Shock Felt but you should be able to let go
6-30 ma (.005-.03 amps) – Pain Full Shock
50-150 ma (.05-.150 amps) – Death is Possible
1000 ma (1 amp) – Death is likely
Ma = Milli-Amps

[dunk373]

Using a powerline and a bird doesn't work because your feet are on the ground

Here was one of three test that I have done with GFCI receptacles and breakers

GFCI Part #2

Okay well the last two weeks have been interesting. I received a power head from Shagman that was shocking him and ran into all sorts of problems with it not tripping GFCI receptacles. It wasn’t until I let it sit a few days in water did it rear its ugly head to where it leaked enough current to trip the GFCI with help from a grounding probe. Because my equipment is not sensitive to pick up low amounts of current I was not able to check to see what or how much current it took to finally trip the GFCI receptacles and breaker. They should trip with 4 to 6 milli-amps.
The following are my test results;
Bad pump and nicked cord on pump
At first I was getting 48 volts and no tripping even with a grounding probe
I was getting a slight tingle when I placed my finger in the water. With a ground probe the shock was eliminated
Used several GFCI receptacles and still no tripping
Sealed the back of the pump with silicone thinking I could seal the pump, tested it several days later and it seemed to work. Voltage was down and no shocking.
Left the pump and cord in the water for several days and the animal reared its ugly head again
This time on the test I had sixty-five volts and a slight shock being bare foot on a tile floor (DO NOT TRY THIS PLEASE) and no trip on the GFCI receptacles or breaker.
Added a ground probe to the water and a immediate trip on receptacles and breaker
I also used an Arc Fault Breaker and no trip even with the grounding probe installed

In following up, a grounding probe is a must for protection to get GFCI receptacles to work properly if the power head does not contain one plus the protection you get from stray voltage from open lamps and internal pumps. Since I did not have a bad power head with a grounding conductor I can not tell you for sure if you would be protected not using a grounding probe? Using a GFCI with out the grounding probe you may still get a shock when placing your hand into your aquarium.
Remember to always check/test your GFCI to see that it works. Nothing worse than thinking you are protected when you are not.

Also you are not protected using just Arc Fault breakers!

On another project I ran into only having five volts and getting an extreme shock because the home did not have a sufficient ground rod at the service and it was using the aquarium for a ground.

Before using a grounding probe you must check or have an electrician check to see if your service is well grounded and also check the receptacle you will be installing the probe to.

Materials:
Pass and Seymour GFCI receptacles
General Electric Panel
General Electric GFCI Breaker
General Electric AFCI Breaker
Bad Power Head
Grounding Probe
Bucket of Water
Fluke Meter
Good info that's my experience too. The bad power head you were testing probably didn't have a ground right? I have found if they are a three prong it will trip the gfi. But if it has no ground you need the ground probe to get the gfi to work. I had an urchin chew my cord before

[Chris27]

Good info that's my experience too. The bad power head you were testing probably didn't have a ground right? I have found if they are a three prong it will trip the gfi. But if it has no ground you need the ground probe to get the gfi to work. I had an urchin chew my cord before

A three prong plug is really only used for devices with a metal enclosure, if the body of the device is plastic, the third prong is about worthless. It's there so that if the line wire is compromised, the person using the device won't get shocked when touching the enclosure.

[Jeff000]

Using a powerline and a bird doesn't work because your feet are on the ground

Here was one of three test that I have done with GFCI receptacles and breakers

GFCI Part #2

Okay well the last two weeks have been interesting. I received a power head from Shagman that was shocking him and ran into all sorts of problems with it not tripping GFCI receptacles. It wasn’t until I let it sit a few days in water did it rear its ugly head to where it leaked enough current to trip the GFCI with help from a grounding probe. Because my equipment is not sensitive to pick up low amounts of current I was not able to check to see what or how much current it took to finally trip the GFCI receptacles and breaker. They should trip with 4 to 6 milli-amps.
The following are my test results;
Bad pump and nicked cord on pump
At first I was getting 48 volts and no tripping even with a grounding probe
I was getting a slight tingle when I placed my finger in the water. With a ground probe the shock was eliminated
Used several GFCI receptacles and still no tripping
Sealed the back of the pump with silicone thinking I could seal the pump, tested it several days later and it seemed to work. Voltage was down and no shocking.
Left the pump and cord in the water for several days and the animal reared its ugly head again
This time on the test I had sixty-five volts and a slight shock being bare foot on a tile floor (DO NOT TRY THIS PLEASE) and no trip on the GFCI receptacles or breaker.
Added a ground probe to the water and a immediate trip on receptacles and breaker
I also used an Arc Fault Breaker and no trip even with the grounding probe installed

In following up, a grounding probe is a must for protection to get GFCI receptacles to work properly if the power head does not contain one plus the protection you get from stray voltage from open lamps and internal pumps. Since I did not have a bad power head with a grounding conductor I can not tell you for sure if you would be protected not using a grounding probe? Using a GFCI with out the grounding probe you may still get a shock when placing your hand into your aquarium.
Remember to always check/test your GFCI to see that it works. Nothing worse than thinking you are protected when you are not.

Also you are not protected using just Arc Fault breakers!

On another project I ran into only having five volts and getting an extreme shock because the home did not have a sufficient ground rod at the service and it was using the aquarium for a ground.

Before using a grounding probe you must check or have an electrician check to see if your service is well grounded and also check the receptacle you will be installing the probe to.


Here is a good read.
http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html

Your tank is the bird on the line. Not you if you have bare concrete floors.

AFCI will trip if say water gets into a power bar.

A ground probe is NOT needed for gfci.

A three prong plug is really only used for devices with a metal enclosure, if the body of the device is plastic, the third prong is about worthless. It's there so that if the line wire is compromised, the person using the device won't get shocked when touching the enclosure.

You're wrong. But that's ok.
All my tunze power heads have a ground prong. As does my skimmer. All are plastic.

[alton]

Your article is more about induced voltage and current than actual current. On the first example they give it proves my test correct, on there second example I believe he is talking about a second power source? And the human loses! GFCI's are for personnel protection and to keep your aquarum from exploding, look at all the tanks with heaters plugged in without GFCI and grounding probe protection. There is nothing simple about electricity and theory, but unless you can prove your theory no one will listen and believe you. If you do not want to use GFCI's then use equipment that stays out of the aquarium, but as long as you place equipment into water the human comes first, fish second otherwise there maybe no one to feed those fish.

[Chris27]

You're wrong. But that's ok.
All my tunze power heads have a ground prong. As does my skimmer. All are plastic.

Not seeing your argument there my friend....your powerheads and skimmer have a 3 prong plug, and that means I'm wrong?

I hope you have controllable Tunze's, because that would make me fall out of my chair laughing....

A three prong plug is exactly what I said it is for, to prevent the user from getting zapped in the event the power lines short to the metal case of the device....it's a very simple concept to understand.

Just because something has a three prong plug, it doesn't mean that the 3rd prong is useful...it has to be connected to something that electricity can flow through to complete a circuit. Plastic will not allow it to happen.

[Chris27]

Your tank is the bird on the line. Not you if you have bare concrete floors.

AFCI will trip if say water gets into a power bar.

A ground probe is NOT needed for gfci.




Perhaps you should brush up on electricity 101, you're posting away with complete disregard for the simplest rules of electricity.

A fish tank is essentially a bird on the line. Wood, Glass and Acrylic are insulators, and as such, don't provide a path to ground. Without that path, there is no circuit.

[Jeff000]

Your article is more about induced voltage and current than actual current. On the first example they give it proves my test correct, on there second example I believe he is talking about a second power source? And the human loses! GFCI's are for personnel protection and to keep your aquarum from exploding, look at all the tanks with heaters plugged in without GFCI and grounding probe protection. There is nothing simple about electricity and theory, but unless you can prove your theory no one will listen and believe you. If you do not want to use GFCI's then use equipment that stays out of the aquarium, but as long as you place equipment into water the human comes first, fish second otherwise there maybe no one to feed those fish.

Keep your aquarium from exploding.... I'm rolling my eyes right now.

You need to read it again.
I understand your view, but more then you do, which is why I still say you do not need a ground probe for a GFCI to work like it is designed. Read again. Maybe read into how a GFCI works too.


Not seeing your argument there my friend....your powerheads and skimmer have a 3 prong plug, and that means I'm wrong?

I hope you have controllable Tunze's, because that would make me fall out of my chair laughing....

A three prong plug is exactly what I said it is for, to prevent the user from getting zapped in the event the power lines short to the metal case of the device....it's a very simple concept to understand.

Just because something has a three prong plug, it doesn't mean that the 3rd prong is useful...it has to be connected to something that electricity can flow through to complete a circuit. Plastic will not allow it to happen.

You say the third prong is really only for devices with a metal enclosure to protect someone that might touch the device.
That is wrong. It is to bond all non current carrying parts. Regardless of if you can see or touch them.



Perhaps you should brush up on electricity 101, you're posting away with complete disregard for the simplest rules of electricity.

A fish tank is essentially a bird on the line. Wood, Glass and Acrylic are insulators, and as such, don't provide a path to ground. Without that path, there is no circuit.

You quoted me, say I am wrong, but then say exactly what I already said, but call it right because it is coming from you.... ???

As I said in what you quoted. Your fish tank, it's the bird on the power line.
You are that birds buddy on the line until you come in contact with something grounded, like say bare concrete floors with your bare feet, or that bonded light fixture, or whatever.

[alton]

[QUOTE=Jeff000;20570473]Keep your aquarium from exploding.... I'm rolling my eyes right now.

You need to read it again.
I understand your view, but more then you do, which is why I still say you do not need a ground probe for a GFCI to work like it is designed. Read again. Maybe read into how a GFCI works too.


Look back on this website when all the heaters where exploding and you will find several that had holes in the side and bottom of there sumps where there heaters where located, sorry I should of said sump?

I posted my test can you not read? Or maybe you should try to do a test yourself instead of posting someones theory with that did not post his own test and there results?
With an aquarium being insulated the defected item will continue to draw power until the breaker trips or until the power strip and or plug in the wall has caught fire because most are rated at 15 amps and I have seen a 20 amp breaker take as much as 30+ amps to trip especially if it located outsde in the winter time and the panel/ breaker are very cool.:deadhorse1:

[Chris27]

You say the third prong is really only for devices with a metal enclosure to protect someone that might touch the device.
That is wrong. It is to bond all non current carrying parts. Regardless of if you can see or touch them.



Please let me know what there is to "bond" inside an AC powerhead....I'm all ears.

[Jeff000]

Look back on this website when all the heaters where exploding and you will find several that had holes in the side and bottom of there sumps where there heaters where located, sorry I should of said sump?

I posted my test can you not read? Or maybe you should try to do a test yourself instead of posting someones theory with that did not post his own test and there results?
With an aquarium being insulated the defected item will continue to draw power until the breaker trips or until the power strip and or plug in the wall has caught fire because most are rated at 15 amps and I have seen a 20 amp breaker take as much as 30+ amps to trip especially if it located outsde in the winter time and the panel/ breaker are very cool.:deadhorse1:

The current nor the voltage is what was causing the tanks to explode. Faulty heaters was the cause.

GFCI do NOT need a ground probe. They do not even need a ground wire in the box. They are NOT reliant on the ground in any way shape or form. They monitor the CURRENT not voltage between the hot and the neutral.

Tripping the breaker and the GFCI like you are saying is not getting the GFCI to do anything, you are making the breaker work while creating a potentially dangerous situation. If the GFCI works the breaker won't trip.

A 15amp receptacle is rated for 20 amps.

I'm sorry if you have a federal panel. They do not know what calibration means.
Yes a breaker can hold more then printed for a short time.
But even 30 amps on a 15amp breaker will be fine for the 15 minutes it might take to trip if everything lines up improper. Water in the receptacle will trip an AFCI though.

Oh and look up what Stray voltage and Contact voltage is.

Please let me know what there is to "bond" inside an AC powerhead....I'm all ears.

It's DC powerhead. Bonding would be the rectifier in the power supply, not the dc head that is in the tank. But in what you quoted I did not limit my definition to a power head. I was simply saying that the ground prong is to bond all non current carrying parts. Not just the parts that you can touch.

[alton]

Jeff please post your test here to prove your point or have you ever tested anything you have posted? Have you never changed out a burned up receptacle because something drew too much power and the breaker did not trip? Have you been shocked or went to a friends tank that was getting shocked and figured out the issue and came up with a solution? Or do you just use wikapedia to get your answers?

[Chris27]

It's DC powerhead. Bonding would be the rectifier in the power supply, not the dc head that is in the tank. But in what you quoted I did not limit my definition to a power head. I was simply saying that the ground prong is to bond all non current carrying parts. Not just the parts that you can touch.

The rectifier is a current carrying component....4 of them actually...so your explanation doesn't hold much water there, or you are unsure of what is actually going on inside the black box.

And while your power supply many have a 3rd prong, it's not there for safety, it's there as part of a noise suppression scheme (grounding).

Bonding and grounding should be approached differently. In your power supply, the ground plug is used for grounding, as part of the overall filter for the power supply. A device enclosure that could potentially become energized (Hairdryer, old vacuum, toaster, circular saw, etc..) is bonded, such that electricity will flow to ground and pop a breaker rather then zap the person unlucky enough to touch it.

In short - grounding is for filtering - bonding is for safety.

[Jeff000]

Jeff please post your test here to prove your point or have you ever tested anything you have posted? Have you never changed out a burned up receptacle because something drew too much power and the breaker did not trip? Have you been shocked or went to a friends tank that was getting shocked and figured out the issue and came up with a solution? Or do you just use wikapedia to get your answers?

My tests. Please. I don't need to. I'm not trying to prove anything that hasn't already been proven. Go and read the spec sheet of a GFCI receptacle, wow no ground needed.

I'm a Journeyman Electrician. NAIT trained. More then 6 years running multi million dollar jobs.

What are you credentials? Wikipedia? An experiment that you think you understand? Stayed at a Holiday Inn last night?

A burnt up receptacle is from a loose/poor connection. Unless the breaker is faulty even a FPE breaker will trip before the receptacle can be loaded enough to burn it up.

Getting a shock from you tank? Remove what is causing the shock, don't just give it a ground probe so you don't feel the shock.


The rectifier is a current carrying component....4 of them actually...so your explanation doesn't hold much water there, or you are unsure of what is actually going on inside the black box.

And while your power supply many have a 3rd prong, it's not there for safety, it's there as part of a noise suppression scheme (grounding).

Bonding and grounding should be approached differently. In your power supply, the ground plug is used for grounding, as part of the overall filter for the power supply. A device enclosure that could potentially become energized (Hairdryer, old vacuum, toaster, circular saw, etc..) is bonded, such that electricity will flow to ground and pop a breaker rather then zap the person unlucky enough to touch it.

In short - grounding is for filtering - bonding is for safety.

Sigh. Ok, I am going to approach this post almost at random.

Couple definitions for you. Right from the code books of Canada and the USA.
NEC makes a mess of things, and has poor definitions.

NEC - Grounding Conductor - A conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode.
NEC - BONDING - Connected to establish electrical continuity and conductivity.
NEC - BONDING JUMPER - A reliable conductor to ensure the required electrical conductivity between metal parts required to be electrically connected.

CEC - GROUNDING - A permanent and continuous conductive path to the earth with sufficient ampacity to carry any fault current liable to be imposed on it, and of a sufficiently low impedance to limit the voltage rise above ground and to facilitate the operation of the protective devices used in the circuit.

CEC - BONDING - A low impedance path obtained by permanently joining all non current carrying metal parts to ensure electrical continuity and having the capacity to conduct safely any current likely to be imposed on it.

Bonding and grounding are different. You are NOT grounding anything you plug into a receptacle. I know the terms get thrown around as being the same, and most of the time accepted, but when you try and differentiate them, at least do it right.

I've never popped open one of my power supplies to see what kind of rectifier they are using. Don't care to. Rectifier does NOT need the 3rd prong.
Sorry for my poor wording on the bonding in the power supply and the rectifier, I was simply stating that the bonding wire goes to the power supply where there is a rectifier. As I said, I haven't opened up the power supply, I couldn't tell you what is being bonded in there. Maybe there is a chassis in there, or whatever else.

[Chris27]

I give up, it's clear that you're well qualified to wire up a house or commercial building, but it's also clear that your knowledge is limited about what goes on inside anything that get's powered by the receptacles you've installed.

Electronics is a whole different ballgame, with a different set of rules. Having available power is just a check mark on the list, being able to use that power effectively and reliably without impacting nearby equipment is a whole different story.

And FWIW, you may be a Journeyman Electrician, but my credentials put me much higher up in your food chain.....

[alton]

I agree with one thing you said remove the item shocking you don't just add a grounding probe! But you have to use a grounding probe with a GFCI to give the unbalanced load a grounding path for equipment that does not contain a grounding conductor like a simple power head and or heater.
And I would love for you to stand up in front of my students in a couple of weeks when one of them ask to prove it and you say "I don't have to prove it you can just go read it somewhere"
I have loved my 14 years of teaching night classes and yes I have my accreditation from NCCER. A journeyman for 21 years and did pass the SBCCI masters test in 96. I love the company I work for as an estimator today and have never had a reason to get my masters license.
If you would of asked me 10 years ago do you need a grounding probe I would of told you no, but not like you I continue to learn and when someone proves me wrong or I find out on my own I change my thinking and don't bury my head in the sad because I think I know everything. I am not going to answer this post anymore nor will I answer anymore on RC about GFCI's or grounding so you can have the last word.

[Jeff000]

I give up, it's clear that you're well qualified to wire up a house or commercial building, but it's also clear that your knowledge is limited about what goes on inside anything that get's powered by the receptacles you've installed.

Electronics is a whole different ballgame, with a different set of rules. Having available power is just a check mark on the list, being able to use that power effectively and reliably without impacting nearby equipment is a whole different story.

And FWIW, you may be a Journeyman Electrician, but my credentials put me much higher up in your food chain.....

You're right, I am not qualified in the least to discuss the electronics that I plug in. I know enough to get myself in trouble. Outside of a few applications like the simplex FA panels and solid state relay type of things, but only because I have been forced to learn about them. And really looking back on me saying its the rectifier in the power supply for the bonding I had a rectifier that we installed a few ago pictured in my mind by smaller. But a 1000amp rectifier is a little different then the probably less than half an amp one controlling my power head.

I don't need to know about the electronics plugged into the receptacles for a GFCI to work. Outside harmonics (they suck). But that isn't a related issue, and really not an issue at all in residential.

Anyways. I'd love to hear the theory of why the ground probe is needed for a GFCI to work.... but only when dealing with an aquarium.


I agree with one thing you said remove the item shocking you don't just add a grounding probe! But you have to use a grounding probe with a GFCI to give the unbalanced load a grounding path for equipment that does not contain a grounding conductor like a simple power head and or heater.
And I would love for you to stand up in front of my students in a couple of weeks when one of them ask to prove it and you say "I don't have to prove it you can just go read it somewhere"
I have loved my 14 years of teaching night classes and yes I have my accreditation from NCCER. A journeyman for 21 years and did pass the SBCCI masters test in 96. I love the company I work for as an estimator today and have never had a reason to get my masters license.
If you would of asked me 10 years ago do you need a grounding probe I would of told you no, but not like you I continue to learn and when someone proves me wrong or I find out on my own I change my thinking and don't bury my head in the sad because I think I know everything. I am not going to answer this post anymore nor will I answer anymore on RC about GFCI's or grounding so you can have the last word.

I believe the results you got from the experiment you posted. And if I didn't find this little banter conversation so... well relaxing actually, I would have stopped posting long ago as I really seem to just eat sleep work and post in this thread lately. I wish I had time to replicate your experiment with a couple meters on the ground probe and through the person feeling the shock.

But I do not understand how you think that with the probe the breaker trips and the GFCI means that the GFCI is working. If it was working then the breaker wouldn't trip.

I love learning. I'm not just trying to have the last word. But read back through your post and show me where anything was posted that I could take as anything besides "I said so" type of replies. I've just been asking you to explain your theory, not even to prove it.
You posted your experiment, but it didn't prove anything about the GFCI, just the breaker tripping.

If I was your student and questioned your experiment, as I did, would you have an answer or just side step?

And have you ever seen a receptacle burnt up from over current? Or just from loose connection?

[Reefahholic]

I give up, it's clear that you're well qualified to wire up a house or commercial building, but it's also clear that your knowledge is limited about what goes on inside anything that get's powered by the receptacles you've installed.

Electronics is a whole different ballgame, with a different set of rules. Having available power is just a check mark on the list, being able to use that power effectively and reliably without impacting nearby equipment is a whole different story.

And FWIW, you may be a Journeyman Electrician, but my credentials put me much higher up in your food chain.....

You guys make a strong argument on both sides...my head hurts now. THANKS! :facepalm:

Remind me to never engage either of you in a reefing dialogue that turns into a debate.

Chris, what are your credentials? :cool:

[dunk373]

I know how to wire and such low v control v. But this stuff makes my head hurt too lol. The things that happen my tank do not make sense. All I know is I had an urchin chew my power cord right through the insulation. It tripped the gfi I then unplugged everything and plugged one at a time until I found the bad one. I needed it to work and plugged it in a reg outlet and it worked all day I came home and found the big chew
Mark. I need the gfi and ground in my situation. Good debate though lol Alton you sound knowledgeable don't let this discourage you

[Chris27]

Chris, what are your credentials? :cool:

I stay at Holiday Inn's a lot and have Wikipedia on my phone :)

When my wife and kid's let's me, I'm an engineer too, working primarily with Electromagnetics and Antenna Systems.