List of devices known to function problematically connected to EB8?

[byronsands]

When can I find a list of devices known to function problematically when connected to an EB8 on outlets 1-3 or 5-7? The rather vague answer is "things consuming < 4-5 watts", but having a list of known devices would be more help than trial and error -- which becomes expensive.

Apparently my BRS dosing pumps should reside on such a list.

I have put the question to Neptune but have not yet received a response.

hint, hint: if no such list exists, maybe it could added to the UNUG in a future release?

[byronsands]

just got a response back from Neptune support -- they do not have such a list available for their clients, so it's up to us reefers to create our own I suppose. Trial and error can get expensive. So maybe we can share the experience of which equipment has become known to function problematically with an EB8.

From my experience related to EB8 ports 1-3 or 5-7:

Device: BRS 1.1 mL dosing pump

Problem: EB8 port may not shut off when instructed to do so with a BRS 1.1mL dosing pump connected.

Outcome: dosing pump will run continously and meter its entire volume into your system at one time.

Neptune suggestion: don't plug the device into one of those ports, the EB8 can't handle it.

[L8ndeb]

Anything that draws less than 5 watts.

[byronsands]

Anything that draws less than 5 watts.

sorry, that's the standard response offered up by everyone based on hearsay, but not a helpful response... many (most) retailers don't even reflect the power draw of product. And its a generalization that is not totally applicable here...

An actual list based on experience of reefers would be helpful.

[kurt_n]

From personal experience, and not hearsay, I've found the "nothing less than 5W" rule to be a pretty safe one. If you follow that rule, there will be no expensive experiments. Not sure why that advice isn't applicable.

Can you use a device that runs 4.2 Watts? Maybe yes. Maybe no. In my brief experimentation when I set my unit up, I found that sometimes a "borderline Wattage" device would work fine on one triac outlet, but not another. Go figure.

[byronsands]

for some us, it appears a list would not be helpful, for others, it will be...

it would also be helpful to have Neptune clearly state in advertising, "do not buy device A if you intend to use devices C, D or E with it; rather buy device B". Because they dont take it back later if you realize you were sold the wrong device.

A list might be helpful. Just saying...

the hobby is expensive enough without having to waste money via trial and error.

[L8ndeb]

sorry, that's the standard response offered up by everyone based on hearsay, but not a helpful response... many (most) retailers don't even reflect the power draw of product. And its a generalization that is not totally applicable here...

An actual list based on experience of reefers would be helpful.

Hearsay? Not helpful? Generalization not applicable? Really?

Do you expect Neptune to expend time, money, to do something that has already been tested by reefers? They are not Microsoft. God knows how many products that have ever been manufactuered for our hobby that my have a problem with the Triac receptacles.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of posts that pertain to the 5watt rule. Why do you think they are out there? Because people have the same question you did, and other people have gone through the same thing. That is why the 5watt rule exists.

BTW, if you have a question regarding the power draw of a product, and the specs are not included with the product, either Google it, contact the manufacturer, post the question on RC, no wait..........let's let Neptune do it. Or you can take the advice of fellow reefer here on RC that have been there done that.

Sorry to be snotty, but your post just rubs me the wrong way. Good luck in finding what you need.

[byronsands]

Sorry to be snotty, but your post just rubs me the wrong way. Good luck in finding what you need.we all get rubbed the wrong way from time to time... hope it don't disrupt your life too much...

sorry that a technical issue causes you personal concern. If you have an investment in Neptune, keep it... they do have good products.

[L8ndeb]

we all get rubbed the wrong way from time to time... hope it don't disrupt your life too much....

Nah, life has much more pressing issues than to let a thread disrupt my life. But thanks for your concern.

sorry that a technical issue causes you personal concern. If you have an investment in Neptune, keep it... they do have good products.

It's not the technical issue that causes me personal concern. It's the fact that a person comes to a place seeking help. When their question is answered, however not how the person posing the question wants it answered, they procede to either belittle, demean, or deem the answer irrelevant. And usually without bothering to do any research.

Would a list of devices that may have trouble on the EB8 be helpful? Maybe for a select few. But I think that most people that post here will take the advice given, do a little research, then decide to follow it or not.

Again, good luck, and good night

[byronsands]

Layton, this thread is about creating (and/or sharing) a list of devices that operate problematicaly on an EB8. You appear to have a problem with that concept. Fine. Ignore this thread and move on to one which excites you. I'm fine with that.

[RussM]

sorry, that's the standard response offered up by everyone based on hearsay, I wouldn't say it's just hearsay... it may be often-repeated, but the basis is shared experiences. When the Apex & EB8 first came out, there was quite a bit of sharing in this regard as I recall.

That said, byronsands, I do like your idea of a list - with some reservation. Maintaining such a list is going to require commitment. Are you willing to step up to the plate? If you are, great! It may be a challenge though... for example, there could very well be conflicting reports for the same device (due to variations in TRIACs as kurt_n mentioned, due to revision of a specific model of device, etc.) To maintain such a list properly, you'd need to track both yeas and nays. You'd also have to determine that each report is based on testing with either an actual EB8 or a DC8 (there still are many many of those in use, some on Apexes), dealing with the fact that people here frequently use the terms DC8 and EB8 interchangeably. Personally, I think it's going to be an exercise in futility.

If you do opt to take it on, I can contribute one entry for you: my Koralia Nano 425 (rated @ 3.5w) does not get shut off reliably on any of three TRIAC-based EB8 outlets I tested.


Folks, there is more to this than just the load in watts... the power factor of the device and the type of load (i.e. resistive or inductive) do have an affect on the ability of a given device to be reliably controlled by a given TRIAC.

The simple 5w rule of thumb *is* a solid guideline for dosing pumps & powerheads plugged into an EB8 (as is the similar 10-12w guideline for the older DC8). Results with other types of devices, such as CO2 solenoids, may vary widely. For example, a while back I ran a test (OSC ON/OFF every 5 seconds) on a nightlight (LED-based, I think - it just gives a greenish glow) that draws a whopping 0.3 watts (no typo - zero point three) - I watched the nightlight for a few minutes - it was operated perfectly. Likewise, a 3w incandescent lamp worked perfectly. And I know that there are people running solenoid valves with miniscule current draw (like 3w) which do operate reliably. Another example... the K-Nano 425 I mentioned above, when plugged into an "outlet saver" pigtail with a tiny embedded LED (like the pic below), does work 100% reliably for me. Others have tried the same or similar pigtails, but it didn't make a difference with the devices they tried. Bottom line - YMMV - always test.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BZa9zAbPL._SL500_AA300_.gif

[byronsands]

I wouldn't say it's just hearsay... it may be often-repeated, but the basis is shared experiences. When the Apex & EB8 first came out, there was quite a bit of sharing in this regard as I recall.I used bad terminology here -- and I was not paying much attention to Apex until I began using it.

[byronsands]

I hadn't thought the list list through as completely as you... I wasn't thinking that it necessarily needed to be verified.

My thought was to merely list the device, the person who believed it was problematic, the conditions under which the problematic symptoms were observed and the issues arising from the problematic condition.

But I tend to only look at the technical side -- never occurred to me that such a list might engender passion around inclusion, exclusion or mere existence. I didn't see a negative side to the list. To me, such a list would not cast dispersion on the EB8 or on the device in question. It would merely assert the two devices had been observed to function problematically when connected.

I'm not the better person to maintain such a list for a couple of reasons:
1. I don't possess the diplomatic skill to not pi$$ people off.
2. I don't have a place to maintain the list where it would be readily accessible to those wanting it.

[schwaggs]

I can see the benifit of a list in Alan's user guide or as a sticky in this forum.

Add:

Tom Products Aqualifter - It does not reliably turn off for me. 3W device.

Marineland Maxi-jet 400 - It does not reliably turn off for me. 5W device.

[Landsailor]

Watts = volts * amps

If the wattage isn't provided, then just do some simple division.

[byronsands]

Watts = volts * amps

If the wattage isn't provided, then just do some simple division.

That's helpful when you know the volts & amps :)

[bazineta]

Watts is equal to volts * amps for DC circuits only. The EB8 is a single-phase AC device, so real power in Watts = power factor * amps * RMS volts. Power factor of devices varies, so it's not as straightforward as it at first seems.

This annoying interlude (significant investment went into the ability to be this obnoxious, humor me...) is my nerdly way of saying that I think a list would probably be helpful.

[l8_apex_it]

I have never found a device which plugs into the wall for electrical requirements which does not at a minimum state the AC voltage and current or wattage. That is all that is needed to verify stated wattage. It may be in very small print but it should be there.

[byronsands]

I have never found a device which plugs into the wall for electrical requirements which does not at a minimum state the AC voltage and current or wattage. That is all that is needed to verify stated wattage. It may be in very small print but it should be there.so you are assuming at this point that you have already purchased and received the product?? That could be an expensive way to find out that it is problematic. If you buy everything at an LFS where you can pull the product out of the box and find the label, that would maybe work to some extent... I tend to purchase over the Internet where labels are inaccessible and specifications are often scarce.

[l8_apex_it]

Oh, I know before I even purchase the item roughly how many watts the device is. I was throwing it out as a suggestion for others who may not know. When purchasing from a store I don't mind cracking open the box to read the power requirements. Most devices will have a spec sheet that you can look at over the web too.

Don't forget that if it is a low wattage device you can and should place the device on one of the mechanical relays. If you run out you can get the add-on Apex accessories which have 4 more mechanical relays. The beauty of the Neptune controllers.

[n2585722]

This is not an issue of watts. It has to do with an inductive load and back EMF. Try a surge protector between the outlet and the offending device. This will work most of the time.As mentioned earlier in this thread test to make sure.

[aquamanic]

This is not an issue of watts. It has to do with an inductive load and back EMF.

Do you know this for sure? Because if so, this would be a huge help to folks that need more mechanical outlets.

[Landsailor]

I think it has something to do with the device not pulling enough current to keep the gate of the triac latched. However, it's been awhile since I've looked into it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[byronsands]

Seeming more & more that a list of problematic connections would be useful...

[n2585722]

aquamanic,

It is correct. With a pump in this case. When the magnetic field collapses a voltage spike is created in the motor winding. This spike will trigger the triac back on which will recreate the magnetic field. The power is removed again causing this to happen very rapidly. To stop this reaction from happening you just have to dissipate the voltage spike somehow. To do this either use an non inductive load such as a lamp, a line filter or surge protector. If you use a surge protector get one with a 300 volt clamping voltage. The surge protector, filter or load has to be between the device and the power outlet to work. Just plugging the power bar into the protector will not work.

The low wattage devices are more prone to this as they create a higher voltage spike when power is turned off. Even though the voltage is higher than the higher current devices it generates very little current and can be sinked easily.

Since these spikes can get into the system buss it is possible that low power devices turning off can cause other issues with a system. I would suggest using something between the device and the output regardless of the outlet.

There is a demo of a back EMF pulse at the site http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmMFog10D0.

[RussM]

And that's why this whole low power device/TRIAC thing is most prevalent with powerheads and doing pumps, as I mentioned earlier. What do they have in common? AC motors! They are inductive loads.

Adding a resistive load like a small incandescent lamp is one way to get around it. The surge suppressor trick will help in some cases, not in others.

The issue with small inductive loads can be resolved by adding in a snubber circuit. BUT - as I recall (it's been 30+ years since my electricity/electronics courses) that snubber circuit needs to be tailored for the load... it's not a universal/one-size-fits-all solution. So if Neptune "fixed" it for, say BRS 1.1ml dosing pumps, the "fix" could cause other problems with other devices.

We can beat this to death, but TRIACs have a number of advantages over mechanical relays... the "soft start" feature, silent operation, long life, etc. Neptune gives us both choices... use the outlet type appropriate for the usage. I do think a list is a good idea.... but I think in order for it to be effective, it needs to be something more than a thread of casual reports.... such as thread will undoubtedly get sidetracked, hijacked, derailed, etc. in short order. And as I expressed earlier, reports need to be qualified to an extent... like someone reporting that device ABC works fine but he/she doesnt say with which power strip - EB8 or DC8 (DC8s have different TRIACs, so it makes a difference) - we cannot just assume that just because a post mentions a specific device in conjunction with an Apex, that the power strip in question is an EB8. Plus, we should not forget about all the AC3/AC3pro/ACjr owners out there with DC8s.

[n2585722]

This will fix the most stubborn devices but it is expensive. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electrical-home-automation-security-home-automation-smart-home-controls/smarthome-filterlinc-plug-in-noise-filter-10-amp-157561.html

[l8_apex_it]

I've been known to use a small incandescent bulb (low wattage) typically for bathroom nightlights and run that in parallel. That seems to work and is cheap. Just put it out of sight so you aren't bothered by flashing haha.

[RussM]

This will fix the most stubborn devices but it is expensive.Yikes! For the cost of 3 plus tax and shipping, you could just about buy an EB4 :)

[byronsands]

"outlet saver" pigtail with a tiny embedded LED (like the pic below), does work 100% reliably for me.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61%2BZa9zAbPL._SL500_AA300_.gif
Russ, where did you get those little colorful pigtails?

[RussM]

Russ, where did you get those little colorful pigtails?

Walmart. Even if they don't help with the TRIAC thing, they are incredibly useful for connecting wall warts to a power strip. Inexpensive too.

[aquamanic]

Russ, why do you say that power heads and dosers are AC motors? I thought all that stuff was DC. I get the inductive vs. resistive load but with those transformers they use, don't they convert AC from the wall into DC that the pumps use?

[RussM]

Russ, why do you say that power heads and dosers are AC motors? I thought all that stuff was DC. I get the inductive vs. resistive load but with those transformers they use, don't they convert AC from the wall into DC that the pumps use?DC motors are generally only used in higher quality fixed-speed pumps and variable speed pumps. AC motors are usually cheaper and smaller than comparable DC motors. Budget-priced powerheads like the Koralias are purely AC. Even the "low voltage" controllable Koralias have AC motors. Similarly, BRS dosers are all AC... not even a wall-wart; just a power cord on them. Except for my Vortechs, no powerhead or small pump I ever had (Seio, Koralia, MJ, Rio, Sedra, Sicce, etc.) had a power supply of any sort - they simply ran on 120VAC.

[RussM]

Being bored out of my mind while sidelined by an injury, I gave this list thing some (more) serious thought. (It only hurts when I laugh - or walk, run, sit, stand, or sleep - but I'll be fine in a couple of days, and I *can* still think and type.)

So, boys and girls.. as the saying goes, "Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it."
I've created a new feature on Reeftronics (http://www.reeftronics.net): the framework for a user-submitted database of equipment compatibility with TRIAC-switched outlets in Neptune EB8, DC8, and DA PC-4 powerbars. Or if you prefer trendy Internet buzzwords, let's call it a crowd-sourced database.

The database can be sorted by device category, manufacturer, model, and more.

I'm going to see how it goes for a few weeks - since it relies on user submissions, if the database grows to my satisfaction in that timeframe, I'll keep it going. If there are not enough entries made by other people, I'll just kill the whole thing. Likewise, if I see too many bogus entries, I'll abandon the project. So, I'm counting on *YOU* to keep it alive. I got it started with a few entries.

Check it out at http://www.reeftronics.net, on the right sidebar entitled Tools. And please make a contribution to the database while you are there!

The data is based on YOUR experience.... so even if a given device is already in the database, go a head and submit your experience.... the more data, the better!

I welcome any suggestions for improvement, such as additional device categories, and ideas for other columns which could be added.

[byronsands]

thanks, Russ... and I hope you recover quickly...

[RussM]

I have to say I'm underwhelmed by the response so far. There have been only 2 entries made to the database by one single person.

You guys asked for a listing - it now exists, so please contribute to it.

[aquamanic]

DC motors are generally only used in higher quality fixed-speed pumps and variable speed pumps.

Now that I think about it, you're right.

You guys asked for a listing - it now exists, so please contribute to it.

I was happy with the '5w rule'!

[byronsands]

you already entered the BRS 1.1mL dosing pumps that I experienced so far.

I may take a bit for folks to realize the data base exists. I appreciate you creating it.

[byronsands]

Walmart. Even if they don't help with the TRIAC thing, they are incredibly useful for connecting wall warts to a power strip. Inexpensive too.btw, I can find those anywhere... maybe I'm just bad at searching. Didn't find anything on the Walmart site either :(

[RussM]

btw, I can find those anywhere... maybe I'm just bad at searching. Didn't find anything on the Walmart site either :(http://www.walmart.com/ip/Woods-8-16-3-SPT-2-Adapter-Cord-White-3pk/16489603