Okay, lets solve this..

[JimBeam]

I just read the thread where people get asked who dumped their leds in favor of the switch back to MH/T5.
Plenty of threads around about people raving about leds to.
All anecdotical and subjective.
Lets make up the halftime score, please vote.

If you vote please tell us what you voted and what kind of tank and leds you have (had).

[longranger]

Voted not going back. I have a 110 gallon reef tank. Used the MH and t5s in the past for hydroponics. Switched to LED as soon as they became remotely affordable. Love them for my current setup.

[BigAl2007]

Not going back! I've been LED for over 3 years now and my only regret was when I first installed the DIY LED I wasn't aware of the extreme intensity and fried some very nice SPS!

12g NanoCube LED (DIY)
34g RSM130D LED (ModularLED/Custom)

Other than a switch failing the first unit (12g NanoCube) has worked flawlessly for over 3 years now.

The ModularLED system has worked flawlessly but I've only had it on the tank about 9 months now! LOVE IT especially coupled to my ProfiLux P3 tank controller.

[kv2wr1]

I just have a FOWLR right now and I like my LEDS on that. If I was going to do a reef tank again with clams, I think I would go halides.

[swanny]

You're not going to solve anything with those three options.

[OKDOHK]

I did use T5's. I just switched to AI SOL only. Thinking about supplimenting SOL with T5, but i will wait to see results first.

[bhazard451]

I'm not going back, but it isn't to say that I don't like MH/T5. Cost savings, heat, and flexibility favor LEDs for me.

Everyone quick to jump back to MH/T5 ran a poor fixture like an AI Sol Blue, and wondered why it didn't grow anything or have any color. Not one person tried a different approach and blamed leds in general.

I ran a standard cool white:royal blue fixture and was underwhelmed at first over time. I then took the DIY approach and built a light with multiple color K white leds, multiple blues, violet leds, reds, cyans, and greens, and the results have been stellar.

MH/T5 is tried and true. LEDs have the ability to blow them away, but manufacturers haven't nailed it yet. DIY seems to be the best approach price wise, and has the ability to be changed at will.

[Nanofreak79]

I switched to LEDs and went back to T5's then back to LEDs. It took me awhile to figure out that you can't just throw any old led system on your tank, and expect to see T5's. You need to do your homework people! Without the right spectrums and correct colors/ combo/LEDs your coral will look terrible do terrible and you will ultimately blame the LEDs for this, when in fact you could have more control over color and intensity if properly done DIY,or purchasing the right fixture from the get go. I've experienced great growth from LEDs, I've also experienced coral loss as well. I have taken what I have learned from LEDs and applied that to every new build I do. I'll never go back to anything else! LEDs are the future IMO! Some people are just unwilling to change, while others have the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality......which is cool too.

[s4chico]

I think that LED tech in the aquarium industry still has a lot of room for improvement, but I am more than pleased that I made the switch...especially with the cost savings from my electric bill and yearly bulb replacements.

[skyline377]

I have a 90 gallon oceanic tech tank. will have 2 radions next week.

[dunk373]

I'm not going back, but it isn't to say that I don't like MH/T5. Cost savings, heat, and flexibility favor LEDs for me.

Everyone quick to jump back to MH/T5 ran a poor fixture like an AI Sol Blue, and wondered why it didn't grow anything or have any color. Not one person tried a different approach and blamed leds in general.

I ran a standard cool white:royal blue fixture and was underwhelmed at first over time. I then took the DIY approach and built a light with multiple color K white leds, multiple blues, violet leds, reds, cyans, and greens, and the results have been stellar.

MH/T5 is tried and true. LEDs have the ability to blow them away, but manufacturers haven't nailed it yet. DIY seems to be the best approach price wise, and has the ability to be changed at will.
this is what i am getting ready to do I added rb to a vho and liked the results but want to go all in led and am using all colors for full spectrum. I don't know why the manufacturers don't do this there has to be a reason why.

[BigBarnacles]

AI SOL BLUE x2. No going back for me. Love em.

[BonJoey]

I will not be switching back from LEDs. Reduced heat and reduced energy usage.

[JimBeam]

I will not be switching back from LEDs. Reduced heat and reduced energy usage.

Great, what Leds do you use and what kind of tank do you have?

[Dave Thebrewguy]

You're not going to solve anything with those three options.

My first thought was that the OP covered it very well with just 3 options, if anything the last one could have been left off to make the fence sitters pick a side. What options do you think are missing?

[Susan Lohrer]

I'm kind of new here (been doing way more reading than posting) and plan to use LEDs for my 65-gallon tank. I'll have a few fish, some LPS, and hopefully one day, a clam. My tank is about seven months old; I'm trying to learn what I'm doing before I do it. So far I have some snails, a fire shrimp, and two Oscellaris. :)

My husband said he'll build an LED lighting system for me (he's awesome) if I'll tell him what sort of bulbs, etc. to buy. He knows all about wires and relays and all the electronic-y stuff, but as for how many of which sort of bulb is ideal for the creatures I want to keep . . . not so much. And there's so much conflicting information available, I'm overwhelmed. :(

If you've been using a DIY LED fixture (not modular) for a good long while and still have nice LPS corals (and maybe a healthy clam), would you mind posting how many bulbs you're using, the size of your tank, and the ratios of the various colors? I would appreciate it so much.

[bhazard451]

I'm kind of new here (been doing way more reading than posting) and plan to use LEDs for my 65-gallon tank. I'll have a few fish, some LPS, and hopefully one day, a clam. My tank is about seven months old; I'm trying to learn what I'm doing before I do it. So far I have some snails, a fire shrimp, and two Oscellaris. :)

My husband said he'll build an LED lighting system for me (he's awesome) if I'll tell him what sort of bulbs, etc. to buy. He knows all about wires and relays and all the electronic-y stuff, but as for how many of which sort of bulb is ideal for the creatures I want to keep . . . not so much. And there's so much conflicting information available, I'm overwhelmed. :(

If you've been using a DIY LED fixture (not modular) for a good long while and still have nice LPS corals (and maybe a healthy clam), would you mind posting how many bulbs you're using, the size of your tank, and the ratios of the various colors? I would appreciate it so much.

This is mine.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183576

[Susan Lohrer]

This is mine.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183576

Thanks a bunch! :)

[Nanofreak79]

Thanks a bunch! :)

Yes, that's a great build! Could I add in my 2cents for you susan?Get rid of 10k whites, and use the 45k. Add more TV's, example is I have 12 on my 40B. I also do clusters of R,CB,C together...I do about one cluster of those per 4-6" of tank, sometimes less depending on the amount of RB's and W's being used. lastly make sure you have full control of all drivers individually! All this is relative to tank size and what you plan on keeping as well.

[Susan Lohrer]

Yes, that's a great build! Could I add in my 2cents for you susan?Get rid of 10k whites, and use the 45k. Add more TV's, example is I have 12 on my 40B. I also do clusters of R,CB,C together...I do about one cluster of those per 4-6" of tank, sometimes less depending on the amount of RB's and W's being used. lastly make sure you have full control of all drivers individually! All this is relative to tank size and what you plan on keeping as well.

Thank you! Any number of cents is fine by me. :)

Get rid of 10k whites, and use the 45k.

Now we get to see me being overwhelmed by what I've been reading. :reading: I saw a mention of cool, neutral, and warm whites in the build thread. So I'm not sure what you mean here. Not Kelvin values. Not 1000s of bulbs. Help? :hmm3:

And when you say 4-6" of tank, do you mean surface area, height, or width? I don't want to sound dense, but it would make a bit of a difference.

Do you have a picture of what your tank looks like with all that violet light?

Also, your avatar is hilarious.

[bayoupr]

Not going back. Love my AI SOL Blues. Less heat and I have no problem with the colors. I was close to buying a chiller to offset the heat from my MH's but now I'm glad I didn't.

[insomniac2k2]

With those 3 options, it may make more sense to have people state which kind of LED's they were running. During this time of rampid misinformation, it seems that most of the people that go back to other lighting were either too impatient (to their fault) or simply couldn't get the correct color spectrum or coverage (not to their fault).

Saying that you had LED's is not enough. Like gas, there is many grades. Even with all these grades, you need to have an engine that is built to consume these grades of gas correctly.

I chose the "never going back" option. Im running a DIY RapidLED 52 LED array.

20CW + 4 NW / 24RB + 2RED + 2Green 80 degree OPTICS on whites and blues 14" off the water.

[Stolireef]

I started my current tank with a pair of Radions. Great build quality, nice software, fixture was slick. I stuck with them for seven months and can say that they will grow just about any coral at any position within my tank (110 4'x20").

However, I had the opportunity over that seven months to look at numerous MH/T5 setups and frankly, I just prefered the light on those tanks over the Radions. Note that I was pretty comfortable adjusting the settings on the Radions but could never get a look that approached my current 14K MH and T5 actinics.

After about three weeks with the MH/T5 setup, I believe my livestock has responded quite well and, although this may be my own rose colored glasses, I believe that both growth and coloration is better.

Just two cents from someone who was at least somewhat patient with very high end LEDs.

[nynick]

With those 3 options, it may make more sense to have people state which kind of LED's they were running. During this time of rampid misinformation, it seems that most of the people that go back to other lighting were either too impatient (to their fault) or simply couldn't get the correct color spectrum or coverage (not to their fault).

Saying that you had LED's is not enough. Like gas, there is many grades. Even with all these grades, you need to have an engine that is built to consume these grades of gas correctly.

I chose the "never going back" option. Im running a DIY RapidLED 52 LED array.

20CW + 4 NW / 24RB + 2RED + 2Green 80 degree OPTICS on whites and blues 14" off the water.

I run an almost identical setup (a few violets added) and I like it a lot. Sure LED isn't perfect but it is getting there. All the new color options and different whites are amazing.

You can't say that you tried LED lights and you don't like them anymore than you can say that you once saw a home you don't like so now you don't want one. The variables are next to infinite.

[Nanofreak79]

Thank you! Any number of cents is fine by me. :)



Now we get to see me being overwhelmed by what I've been reading. :reading: I saw a mention of cool, neutral, and warm whites in the build thread. So I'm not sure what you mean here. Not Kelvin values. Not 1000s of bulbs. Help? :hmm3:

And when you say 4-6" of tank, do you mean surface area, height, or width? I don't want to sound dense, but it would make a bit of a difference.

Do you have a picture of what your tank looks like with all that violet light?

Also, your avatar is hilarious.

4-6" length wise for the exotics= red,cool blue and cyan. This would be good on tanks with a width of 12-18" stagering the clusters evenly. Cool whites are 10000k temp, those are not what you want IMO. You should shoot for the 4500-5000k whites. These will bring out the colors in your coral better, cool whites are way to blue. The true violet LEDs are not bright when you look at them directly, but throw off a considerable amount of par and usable spectrum for the corals. They have a range usually around 420nm which is perfect for mixing between the RB's spectrum. If your using the neutral whites, make sure to do a 3:1 ratio IMO of blue to white, the neutrals are more overpowering since they lack in the blue spectrum such as the cool whites. Back to the exotics, clay-boa.comsells ocean coral white LEDs which have the Red,cyan,cool blue on one led star which makes it very easy to add or remove them. Cool blues can also be added at a small amount to add an actinic feel, but not to many or you'll end up with the windex bottle look to your tank. Hope this helps you out some!

[moondoggy4]

I skipped the LEDs and bought a MH T-5 setup for my new coral tank. Since it is a small tank I got the single 150 watt with 4 T-5's.

[JimBeam]

With those 3 options, it may make more sense to have people state which kind of LED's they were running. During this time of rampid misinformation, it seems that most of the people that go back to other lighting were either too impatient (to their fault) or simply couldn't get the correct color spectrum or coverage (not to their fault).

Saying that you had LED's is not enough. Like gas, there is many grades. Even with all these grades, you need to have an engine that is built to consume these grades of gas correctly.

I chose the "never going back" option. Im running a DIY RapidLED 52 LED array.

20CW + 4 NW / 24RB + 2RED + 2Green 80 degree OPTICS on whites and blues 14" off the water.

Agreed, thats why I posted as a last sentence:
If you vote please tell us what you voted and what kind of tank and leds you have (had).

[sirreal63]

Polls do not solve anything, they are at most a popularity contest based solely on opinion.

[redtop03]

Polls do not solve anything, they are at most a popularity contest based solely on opinion.

almost all the LED manufacturer have scientific data that they say proves their fixture is more that capable,and I'm sure they are,but in the end,it is the users opinions that win out in a debate and ultimately forces the manufacturer to redesign or update their systems to better serve the end users,so a popularity pole does have some validity....

however,it doesn't prove a thing to me,I have to see results for myself to be convinced of anything but it is good to get others opinions and see what they are using and why they are happy or disappointing in a specific product

I still use MH/T5 and am happy with the results but they do consume a lot of power and create a lot of heat,I want to conserve as much as possible so I plan to switch to LEDs as soon as financially possible and the DIY approach is my plan as well.....

with reading these comments and suggestions,I get a much better understanding of what some believe is lacking in the factory made fixtures....with the manufacturers data and the opinions of others,I can better formulate a plan for my DIY fixture,I'm sure that's not gonna be a 100% perfect outcome but it at least gives me a great starting point

[sirreal63]

Unless someone has used multiple fixtures he only has an opinion on what he has used, not the LED group as a whole. That is where the popularity poll is flawed, it is the same as trying to give a report on the best car you can buy but only testing one car, how can you comment on other cars you have never driven. It makes this whole thread irrelevant.

All anecdotical and subjective.



That pretty much sums it up, it is all anecdotal and subjective. I applaud the idea but there is no way to do it with a poll. The best way to make a decision is to listen to those who have used numerous lighting sources for an extended period of time and finding out why they like or dislike each.

[karsseboom]

Notice how most of all the people on here talking about LEDs have small nano tanks and very little experience with Sps. Not all of them but most....

If you had a fish only with a few corals how can you say they work better? Unless You had a full blown Sps reef and then switched and saw positive results, you shouldn't be talking

[Mike31154]

DIY 10 watt multi-chip LED over my 77 gal since April 2012. Not many sps, mostly lps & soft coral. Hammer coral, star polyps, brown polyps, montipora all doing very well under the LEDs. Haven't seen much of a change in these since switching from 2x250 watt MH, T5HO combo. If anything, looking nicer. No intention of going back to halide/T5 clunker. BTAs & other livestock looking great as well. I have one coral I'm not certain about, it was sold to me as a chalice frag but it looks more like a green montipora or a 'cabbage' coral. This one does not seem to be doing as well as before. Still growing, but it's always been thin & fragile & I keep breaking pieces off by accident, so that could the issue rather than the lighting change. Have two more small brown branching sps pieces that haven't changed their color after the switch & are growing well. They started brown & are still brown, so I can't speak to any striking color changes either way in my limited sps collection.

My fixture consists of 3 rails of nine 10 watt multi chip LEDs, for a total of 27. The middle rail has 4 cool white (6000-7000K) & 5 blue (460-470 NM) LEDs. The two outer rails are tilted slightly inwards (10 degrees) & have 5 cold white (10000K) & 4 royal blue (452-455 NM) LEDs. The LEDs have no optics & are approx. 7.5 inches above the water surface. I put this together after a fair bit of research & although there are new developments almost daily with respect to LED lighting options, I thought the time was right to finally make the transition. Have to start somewhere despite sharp development curve. Manufactured fixtures were too pricey so DIY was a better option for me. I can easily tweak my fixture, adding more or changing LEDs without having to rely on a specific vendor or manufacturer. I have yet to run the fixture at full power so there's some headroom to be had as far as lumens. Only failure so far was one of the fans which I replaced with a spare. The LED with the failed fan appears to have suffered no ill effects. Not sure how long it was on without fan, but the heatsink seems to have kept it sufficiently cool on its own.

I realize photos don't tell the true story but I did take before & after shots & must say I like the LED look better. Other things I prefer about LEDs are the flexibility of color options, dimming capability, low power use, low profile, not having to clean reflectors from salt spray, infrequent bulb changes, many of the issues already discussed in most LED/MH/T5 comparisons.

https://ojcrhq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pov38Fx4bYAHgHI_b_jaLL1UQ28iRHm2KOwLiiZNz_biQfUGN3wWt7XY6ejcO1X4R8HKbETFAVPaOGVId7xSv3E-7jYajmzUY/P1040642e2.JPG?psid=1

https://ojcrhq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pBUi6kgzt6N-QMwXMNdvGnitqk8Q8XetzZYG22HoxL6PMJ67DgE_yFZpQ85TbiB1ZE8wwrd62BpXmb17SERuQZPaiQ7FyAmQO/P1040678e.JPG?psid=1

[nynick]

Notice how most of all the people on here talking about LEDs have small nano tanks and very little experience with Sps. Not all of them but most....

If you had a fish only with a few corals how can you say they work better? Unless You had a full blown Sps reef and then switched and saw positive results, you shouldn't be talking

I promise to ask your permission next time I open my mouth:idea:. But if we are talking size and coral types, is 1350g sps dominated good enough for you?

http://www.youtube.com/user/peterfishtank?feature=watch

That is NOT my tank btw, just an example of many large successful led reef tanks.

[JimBeam]

Unless someone has used multiple fixtures he only has an opinion on what he has used, not the LED group as a whole. That is where the popularity poll is flawed, it is the same as trying to give a report on the best car you can buy but only testing one car, how can you comment on other cars you have never driven. It makes this whole thread irrelevant.



That pretty much sums it up, it is all anecdotal and subjective. I applaud the idea but there is no way to do it with a poll. The best way to make a decision is to listen to those who have used numerous lighting sources for an extended period of time and finding out why they like or dislike each.


You (and some with you) are reading something in the poll thats nowhere written
It solves the question how many people that tried leds switched back because they where disappointed and how many people kept them because they where satisfied.
To clarify (because its intresting information to some) I added the request to mention what kind of leds above what sort of tank they used.
Nothing more nothing less.

Its not a popularity contest, we're not trying to find the best led/mh/T5 out there, just this one fact and some background info that may indeed be of no use to you.
Thats hard statistics my friend :lol2:

[sirreal63]

It isn't hard statistics, it is subjective opinions, and while it has some value how can it actually help someone make a decision? The success or failure of a tank is not just a function of lighting, with the added variables of each setup, maintenance and over all health of a system, it adds too many variables into the mix. Person A could have had success with an AI Sol and person B had dismal results, that would show that it isn't just the light, and this happens with just about every LED fixture out there. How is this hard statistics?

This thread does have some value, but mostly entertainment value, not hard statistics.

[JimBeam]

I've no idea what you're on about.

So far 70% of the people that voted love their leds.
Thats statistics entertaining as it may be :)

You're talking about 'decisions', 'success/failure', 'results'.
None of these are mentioned in the poll, we're just counting as a reaction to the other thread, period.

[sirreal63]

The point is this thread will not "solve" anything.

[JimBeam]

Again ( and I give up after that):
It solves the question how many people that tried leds switched back because they where disappointed and how many people kept them because they where satisfied.

I wonder if you would have such a hard time reading if 70% voted that they dumped their leds.

[sirreal63]

It wouldn't make any difference, I am a supporter of LED's, well, good LED's. I am also a supporter of being realistic, and while this thread is fun, it is not really going to be a good reference for someone deciding anything and does not solve anything. But I will concede it is fun. :-)

[jerpa]

I find these threads comical in the sense that five years from now they will come up on searches related to which kind of lighting to buy. We will all laugh at the thought that LEDs can't be employed over certain tanks much as we will probably laugh at the CW/RB fixtures that still dominate the commercial landscape.

I've switched to LEDs and while I will be switching fixtures it will be for different LEDs. I'm currently running Kessils over my DT and frag tank. Happy with results with regards to the animals, not so much with the aesthetics, way too blue IMO.

[karsseboom]

Again ( and I give up after that):
It solves the question how many people that tried leds switched back because they where disappointed and how many people kept them because they where satisfied.

I wonder if you would have such a hard time reading if 70% voted that they dumped their leds.

How many people who voted are creditable people with years of experience with Sps?

[karsseboom]

I promise to ask your permission next time I open my mouth:idea:. But if we are talking size and coral types, is 1350g sps dominated good enough for you?

http://www.youtube.com/user/peterfishtank?feature=watch

That is NOT my tank btw, just an example of many large successful led reef tanks.

You just posted a tank you know nothing about. How long werr the LEDs on the tank, did he grow those corals from frags with the LEDs or did he jut switch? There are way to many veriables.

[insomniac2k2]

I suppose it's fun for you. All i see you doing is bashing people trying to put out as much information and feedback on an already difficult topic. If we had it your way, there would be no path leaders or experimentation which lead into a better, sustainable solution.

Realistic to who? You? Your unrealistic. Get off your soap box and realize that people are trying to share their experience.

I for one, read the description in the poll. This description implied that you were on other forms of lighting.

What exactly do you support about LED? Are you researching them? Are you testing different chips? Are you adding different spectrums to your fixtures? Or are you just waiting for others to do it, kicking them in the nuts the entire time...

[sirreal63]

I have been watching LED's since the original Solaris cane out, and it has been growing ever since. I have been patiently watching them evolve since day one, they are getting closer and closer every month to being a viable alternative to replace MH and T5, but they are not there yet. I do use LED's to supplement my MH and I am close to switching out my MH for a ReefTech Poseidon but haven't yet. So yes I am a fan and a supporter of the technology, but the point was this thread does not "solve" anything, it is an opinion poll. If solves nothing, if someone had a really crappy T5 setup and switched to LED's and got better results, well duh it would make sense, but it does not prove that one lighting is better than the other, just that a better suited LED fixture gave better performance than a crappy T5 setup, which would be expected, but proves nothing for the big picture. Seems pretty simple to me, we are not going to "solve" anything here, just get some opinions based on limited and highly variable systems. With that said, it is fun and let's keep it civil, this is a discussion board not a place for nut kicking, I would hate to see this thread locked because it does have some value.

[insomniac2k2]

I have a better idea. Let's do a thread by your terms. You state all the parameters which need to be met in order to post in the thread, and we can sumbit it for your approval via PM. Once we have met your requirements and it is to your satisfaction, we will be able to share information with others.

This will keep us from picking out one thing and sticking on it like our life depends on it.

That said. LED's themselves are "there". Our understanding of what spectrums we should be using, what light cycles, and what optics is not there yet. Seems like we should share this experience, but maybe not.....

[bhazard451]

Just two cents from someone who was at least somewhat patient with very high end LEDs.

That's the thing though, while the fixture is high end and full of features, the leds themselves, especially the white XP-Gs, are not exactly optimal. Including a Fiji purple type 420nm actinic led, and using a warmer, higher CRI white may possibly be the fix.

Outside of DIY, the Maxspect Razor, and the GHL Mitra coming out, no other led fixture has this. Cree themselves don't even make a violet 420nm led yet.

[nynick]

You just posted a tank you know nothing about. How long werr the LEDs on the tank, did he grow those corals from frags with the LEDs or did he jut switch? There are way to many veriables.

We know quite a bit about that tank, mega thread here on RC for example. Nineballs site is also very detailed (and great!). I am going to go out on a limb and call it the most well documented reef tank in the world...at least that I know of.

[bhazard451]

Notice how most of all the people on here talking about LEDs have small nano tanks and very little experience with Sps. Not all of them but most....

If you had a fish only with a few corals how can you say they work better? Unless You had a full blown Sps reef and then switched and saw positive results, you shouldn't be talking

At least said people have the Leds, and have probably used MH/T5 at some point as well. The discussion could be very helpful in guiding people to make the choice that is right for them, and to avoid making mistakes that people may have already done.

Going by your own words, since you don't have both, maybe you shouldn't be talking?

[sirreal63]

I wish it were that easy but I doubt any single thread will help much, it is a compilation of all threads and experience that will help and I don't see that happening yet. I am hopeful though. I agree that in some cases the new LED's are there, but the best results are currently and have always been with the DIY crowd which where the real innovation with LED's has come from and commercial fixtures are adapting to that.

I agree with Bhazard, there are some fixtures coming out that have progressed way beyond AI and Ecotech, and the next year should be fun. So those people who paid dearly for technology that was outdated as soon as they got it probably won't be happy, but that is the way it is with new stuff.

We still haven't solved anything, it is certain that LED's can grow corals and some fixtures are able to obtain color and performance close to traditional lighting. That doesn't imply that all LED's are equal, or that any tank will benefit from a change in lighting, some will and some won't, every tank is different.

[JimBeam]

Same goes for MH and T5.
Lets count.

[Nanofreak79]

LEDs are the future! Embrace it LOL!!!There are those of us that are doing the DIY at home, fine tuning our fixtures with great results. There are the companies out there slanging fixtures purely for profit, and hopping on the led bandwagon with no real intent on changing the game. Then you have the few companies actually taken what has been learned and applying it. I for one know for a fact that LEDs will and always will outperform any other lighting system out there. The ability to tweak the color spectrum is almost endless. The technology is not there for some people, and that's ok,But it will be! And when it does hit we can all thank ourselves for doing the hard part, which is putting up with all the naysayers, and the trial and error that led to advancements. For me, I love my LEDs! I wouldn't trade them for anything.with all this being said I also put in countless hours and money into finding the right colors, combos etc. this doesn't bother me though as its all part of the fun of being a saltwater nut. Flame on!

[bhazard451]

LEDs are the future! Embrace it LOL!!!There are those of us that are doing the DIY at home, fine tuning our fixtures with great results. There are the companies out there slanging fixtures purely for profit, and hopping on the led bandwagon with no real intent on changing the game. Then you have the few companies actually taken what has been learned and applying it. I for one know for a fact that LEDs will and always will outperform any other lighting system out there. The ability to tweak the color spectrum is almost endless. The technology is not there for some people, and that's ok,But it will be! And when it does hit we can all thank ourselves for doing the hard part, which is putting up with all the naysayers, and the trial and error that led to advancements. For me, I love my LEDs! I wouldn't trade them for anything.with all this being said I also put in countless hours and money into finding the right colors, combos etc. this doesn't bother me though as its all part of the fun of being a saltwater nut. Flame on!

Each setup is different though. I love leds, but you can't say that one is really better than the other, and each have their pros and cons that affect each reefer differently. Great tanks can be made with either light source.

It's pointless to flame setups, led or MH. You also can't expect everyone to be able to put in the research, time, and money into DIY setups. It took a lot of time and experimentation for me to be 100% happy with leds, and even then I still will be consistently experimenting. The results have been very satisfying, and I love turning channels on/off and adjusting the intensity until I hit that perfect color. Some days I prefer a 10k look, some days I like 16k. It can all be done through my smartphone, which is very cool.

It would be much easier for most people to pop in a bulb and know what they'll expect, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[karsseboom]

We know quite a bit about that tank, mega thread here on RC for example. Nineballs site is also very detailed (and great!). I am going to go out on a limb and call it the most well documented reef tank in the world...at least that I know of.

In the world???lol okay did you see who inspired him? Steve weast. That guy lives like 10 min from me. His tank is very sweet but wouldn't even crack the top 50 nicest tanks in the world.

[nynick]

tr.v. (-mnt) doc·u·ment·ed, doc·u·ment·ing, doc·u·ments
1. To furnish with a document or documents.
2. To support (an assertion or claim, for example) with evidence or decisive information.
3. To support (statements in a book, for example) with written references or citations; annotate.

There you go.

[Nanofreak79]

Each setup is different though. I love leds, but you can't say that one is really better than the other, and each have their pros and cons that affect each reefer differently. Great tanks can be made with either light source.

Sure you can! Take your fixture off, and put on a Chinese fixture with blue and white channels only. Tell me your still just as happy, if not, its better than the other fixture. This is only one example mind you. I don't believe a tank can look great without proper LEDs, hence why people hate them or go back to other form of lighting.

It's pointless to flame setups, led or MH. You also can't expect everyone to be able to put in the research, time, and money into DIY setups. It took a lot of time and experimentation for me to be 100% happy with leds, and even then I still will be consistently experimenting. The results have been very satisfying, and I love turning channels on/off and adjusting the intensity until I hit that perfect color. Some days I prefer a 10k look, some days I like 16k. It can all be done through my smartphone, which is very cool.

I'm not flaming anyone's setup am I? Not everyone can,will or cares to take the time for LEDs, that's point. I have, and it sounds like you have as well, which is why I/we are having success. Sharing my reasons as to why LEDs worked for me, as well as why commercial fixtures can fall short.
It would be much easier for most people to pop in a bulb and know what they'll expect, and there is nothing wrong with that.

your right! There's nothing wrong with that, that's what people want. They'll never get that though. Tell me wether it's T5,MH etc that you haven't bought anything to get the right color etc. only to have to purchase something else because it wasn't what you wanted. Some people's idea of purple or blue is different, there are too many variables to make everyone happy with just popping in a bulb.....someone will always be disappointed or unhappy with the outcome.

[karsseboom]

tr.v. (-mnt) doc·u·ment·ed, doc·u·ment·ing, doc·u·ments
1. To furnish with a document or documents.
2. To support (an assertion or claim, for example) with evidence or decisive information.
3. To support (statements in a book, for example) with written references or citations; annotate.

There you go.

Its not even close to being the most documented tank. You have not been around very long if you think that. That tank is not even a good selling point for leds since the sps don't even look that great.

[OneReef]

I run 3 AI Sols over a 120g SPS tank. Gave it a year. Love the tank temps being cooler, but my colors are not anything like MH. I'm missing a spectrum. I really don't want to start experimenting with adding other stuff to fill in. I may go back to MH.

I've been keeping SPS for 6 years in tanks from 75g, 150g, 120g. Ive kept them with much success. I know the difference in Sols and Halides. I gave the Sols a year. The color and growth is not comparable to Radium 250whalides IMO. I probably could get better colors by adding something else's to my Sols, but that would be more experimenting. I know what I can get with MH right now. I suck at soldering anyways....lol

Ill give the Sols this, the blues and purples were easier to keep under them than a 20k halide in my tank.

I should add in that I was using the same salt, salinity, flow, skimmer type, biopellets, ca reactor, everything the same on both setups, so the lighting was the only difference.

[bhazard451]

I run 3 AI Sols over a 120g SPS tank. Gave it a year. Love the tank temps being cooler, but my colors are not anything like MH. I'm missing a spectrum. I really don't want to start experimenting with adding other stuff to fill in. I may go back to MH.

I've been keeping SPS for 6 years in tanks from 75g, 150g, 120g. Ive kept them with much success. I know the difference in Sols and Halides. I gave the Sols a year. The color and growth is not comparable to Radium 250whalides IMO. I probably could get better colors by adding something else's to my Sols, but that would be more experimenting. I know what I can get with MH right now. I suck at soldering anyways....lol

Ill give the Sols this, the blues and purples were easier to keep under them than a 20k halide in my tank.

I should add in that I was using the same salt, salinity, flow, skimmer type, biopellets, ca reactor, everything the same on both setups, so the lighting was the only difference.

You would actually be much better off sticking with MH until leds are fully figured out. Let the DIY crowd be the guinea pigs to find what works, and then when the commercial market catches up and hopefully lowers in cost, you can decide again then if the switch is worth it.

One of my main issues with CW:RB fixtures was the decrease in red color over time, especially on Acans and sponges. I no longer have that issue since the switch to different leds, but it shows that companies like AI don't really have a full grasp on what they're selling.

[OneReef]

You would actually be much better off sticking with MH until leds are fully figured out. Let the DIY crowd be the guinea pigs to find what works, and then when the commercial market catches up and hopefully lowers in cost, you can decide again then if the switch is worth it.

One of my main issues with CW:RB fixtures was the decrease in red color over time, especially on Acans and sponges. I no longer have that issue since the switch to different leds, but it shows that companies like AI don't really have a full grasp on what they're selling.

I agree, I think I'm going with MH again till it gets figured out. I think LeDs will be the way of the future once the spectrum gets figured out. dIYers are still trying different things and I am not wanting to build my own LEDs right now, and if I did, I'd be guessing and going off other peoples guesses, assumptions, and subjective opinions on what they think works or looks good. I could add more LED colors, vhos, t5, or whatever else, but now I'm back to guessing and buying more stuff. I'd just as soon add radium halides back on and know what I'm getting and knowing that I've been successful with it. From what I've seen, most LED tanks that look pretty good, are still lacking in total coral color variation. Or they've added supplementation of some sort. I've seen pics posted of people showing how great their tank looks under LEDs but to my eye, something is missing in the rainbow or coral colors. There may be a few stunning all LED tanks out there, but they are the exceptions rather than the norm. I'm not bashing LEDs, I love many aspects of them, and I own them. I want them to work. I'll go back to them one day, but until then, I'll have 20 people telling me 20 different things about what I need to adjust or add to get more color.

And on a side note, you're correct on AI and other companies. I emailed AI earlier in the year asking about red and green LEDs, and they said there was no need for them, that the Sols white bulbs put out all the colors need within that spectrum, that green and red were just for aesthetics. I don't know the science, but I know that the whites don't have everything needed to keep all colors like halides do. I know that from experience now. Plus, after saying that the Sols had ALL the spectrum needed, they come out with Vegas with more color options...... They are still figuring it all out.

[Mmiller40gt]

You just posted a tank you know nothing about. How long werr the LEDs on the tank, did he grow those corals from frags with the LEDs or did he jut switch? There are way to many veriables.

2 min on his site tell you the corals were grown under halides. They just switched to LEDs.


"We previously used AquaMedic metal halide/T5 combinations and still recommend these units"

[nynick]

Silly for a LED manufacturer to say that something "is just for aesthetics". Aesthetics are a large reason why we keep reef tanks so for them to shrug it off makes you wonder.....

I agree with you on the wait time though. If my T5s hadn't crapped out I probably would have waited another year. I am perfectly happy with my LED setup but that does not mean it could not be improved. I went all CW for the whites and as a result I have to lower the blue channel a lot to avoid the Windex look. Not a big issue since I still can't crank the whites to full strength but would have been nice to be able too. Then again, I only payed 380 delivered for 2 so in a year or two I could just get new ones with the money I save on bulbs and electricity.

I am also wondering if it might be a good idea to put really wide optics on the colored bulbs that you only have a few of? I can't really see any difference in color anywhere in my tank but I have a couple of tiny spots between rocks that look reddish. Since Bhazard is keen on experimentation....cough...hint, hint :) Chances for me to burn down the house while tinkering with anything electrical are 102% so I will have to rely on other people.

[nynick]

2 min on his site tell you the corals were grown under halides. They just switched to LEDs.


"We previously used AquaMedic metal halide/T5 combinations and still recommend these units"

If by "just" you mean over a year ago (2 years?...can't remember, was a long time since I went through all of that), then yes :) You might want to spend more than 2 min next time, even if for no other reason that the site and thread is easily worth a weekend :) .

[BlueFyre]

I started with LEDs because it seemed the way to go. Now after a year I'm going to try T5. I went withe ecoxotic/panoramas. The color is amazing! My softies and LPS look/grow very VERY well/ But SPS not so much.

Basically I don't like any of the manufactured fixtures out there and I'm not a very good DIYer. So the plan is to wait it out a few more years. By then hopefully there are more full spectrum LED fixtures out there that don't break the bank.

[Mike de Leon]

bump!! Looking to switch to LEDs. Seems like more people are actually satisfied with them...

[insomniac2k2]

Long story short is that you can definitely get it to where you are happy. The question is: What path do you want to take?

For Store bought, id say that the Maxspect Razor and kessil are the leaders in "correct" spectrums.

Only the sky is the limit in DIY. But you have to be the one that has to figure it out. That said, most people that actually arent afraid of taking a leap now and then, are pretty helpful to get you where you want to be.

Seems to me that the people that go back to MH, were unable to get the correct color spectrum that made it look exactly like their MH's that they have been staring at for years. I for one, had only had PC's and T5's. Both of which were pleasant to look at, but lacked shimmer. Being that I wasnt about to buy a heat and power hungry MH; LED was the logical choice.

After 6 or so months of adjusting to the first color's that I chose, I am now experimenting with adding different colors (trying new looks and refining light ranges). I can certainly grow coral now, but will continue to refine it to end up with the perfect color for me. Then again. For me, the trip is the destination.

I have no doubt that if you have a little bit of patience, you will end up happy with your decision.

[my2girls]

LED for me. I like this thread because it is fun :).

I've said it before in other LED threads- reefers that switch back to MH/T5 within a few months are just impatient. I don't understand how one could have all the benefits of LEDs and go back to the heat and bulb replacement. Couple that with losing big bucks on their initial investment and it just seems insane.

I was an early adopter of LEDs. I spent $2000 on my fixture that is just cool white and royal blue. It is not perfect by today's LED standards but oh well. The only mistake I made was thinking that modularity was not important. I'm happy with most of the colors in my tank but have recently added a DIY violet strip for some 420.

BTW- I do have 12 years of experience with all types of corals and every type of lighting except plasma. 6 different tanks and counting. I hope I'm qualified to give my opinion on this fun thread. :D

[James77]

The heat is a non issue for quite a lot of people a d spending $90-$160 once a year on halide bulbs is also no big deal. I spend almost 15,000 dollars on property taxes for 2 houses. Anything aquarium cost wise at least is pretty tiny compared to some of the larger expenses in life.

If they work best for you, great. But no tank or situation is the same. Even when LEDs are ironed out and have some long term success by many people like halides do, I still may keep or get new halides if the current costs are the same.

[grigsy]

Replaced one of my 250 watt pendants with an AI SOL unit - after months, there was no comparison.

The Metal Halide was CLOBERING the AI SOL. Much, much better growth from my 250 watt halide.

I am much happier using metal halides versus LEDs.

[my2girls]

James- you admittedly keep your tank in the mid 80's hitting as high as 87. In my book that is a big problem. I'm pretty sure most folks would agree with me. Glad it works for you though. Most of the LED guys put a premium on energy effienciency and heat reduction along with superior controllability. I'm not hating on you for running halides. I did it happily for many years but will never go back.

[grigsy]

Most of the LED guys put a premium on energy effienciency

When your heater is on all day and all night during winter, you are using a lot of electricity. Especially when it is 300 or 400 watt. Heaters and LEDs are often overlooked by the "energy saving" notion.

[James77]

How is running a tank in the mid 80s in the couple hot summer months a problem? I already stated in another thread that people have a misconception that tanks need to be kept at a rock steady temp. Going from a rock steady 77 degrees to 85 in one day will cause serious problems.....not because of the heat but because of the shock of not being used to what is entire normal. My tank has hit 87 a handful of times over a few years, with no ill effects. Someone allowing their tank to do so would enable most people to need no chiller, a major source of energy usage.

I love energy efficiency....I use all CFL and motion detectors. I kill all lights when i leave rooms and I may be switching to dish network for the hopper since the satellite boxes use a fraction of the electric that my Fios DVRs use. But my tank is a huge exception for me, it is a hobby I love. I don't mind some smaller costs like salt and filters, electric or any equipment. I have blown stupid amounts of money trying new equipment and different setups. So 10 bucks in electric a month and 150 in bulbs a year is nothing really when I can so very easily save on endless areas of my everyday non-fun area of life.

I know you are not hating on me for halide use. But it is a discussion board, right? :) I use LEDs for blue supp and dusk dawn, so in a way I do real the benefits of not paying for replacing vho bulbs twice a year and paying for their electic. Never mind the 2.6 hundred t5s I have broken :).......now there are some savings

[James77]

Just to add to my above.....

I have been running my tank without any controller or heater for a few weeks. I have been too busy to set up the controlelr I have. Halides have been running the whole time, and Im not even sure where the tank went....all the fish have been fine. I just checked the little LCD or that whatever gel type stick on thermometer is and it is right at 78 with the halides having been on for hours. I think we were well into the 80s temp wise today.

[sirreal63]

I'm pretty sure most folks would agree with me.
I am not in the agreement camp. I try to let my tank mimic the temp variation on a real reef. I have been doing this since about 2005/6 and it has been successful. Most people run their tanks at winter temps or below for their reef. This is when growth is slowest, and I prefer growth. Google the great temperature debate and you will see that the "experts" that many of learned from can't even agree on what the actual temps on most reefs are. Read all 4 parts, it is a good read. Fortunately this forum has a couple of members who have made this their research project and have become actual scientists, not book writers.

Their are people who can take advantage of the electrical savings, and for these people it makes perfect sense but for most of the country this isn't really the case.

[insomniac2k2]

There may be a couple of variables at work here. You switched lighting, and you are running AI SOL's. Even another variable would be what percentage of lighting you were running on the SOL. Most poor LEd transitions are made from simple mistakes that we all make along the way. If you care to share more information on your experiment, you may get some meaningful feedback.

EDIT: Dont take the above the wrong way. Believe me. I really do mean that we ALL make mistakes....

Replaced one of my 250 watt pendants with an AI SOL unit - after months, there was no comparison.

The Metal Halide was CLOBERING the AI SOL. Much, much better growth from my 250 watt halide.

I am much happier using metal halides versus LEDs.

[nynick]

I was always curious as to where those temperature readings were done though. I have seen numbers mentioned of 84 and 86 that I have never encountered while diving or snorkeling and I have been to tropical reefs on 3 continents(mostly Thailand, Philippines and the Caribbean though) and during any month of the year. Also a lot of mentioning of depth, how it is the same temp at 20 to 40 meters down as it is just under the surface. I am sure that is the case in some places but not anywhere I have been. It has clearly been cooler just a few meters down. Not by a huge margin of course, we are still talking tropical but enough that you can clearly feel it as you go down...a degree or two perhaps? Went to Curacao a couple of years back (January) and the water was at 74, this is the coolest I have ever encountered at a reef.

Not trying to argue about what temp to keep reef tanks at, just curious where all those readings were done and if most of our livestock are from those places.

[KCombs]

Not trying to argue about what temp to keep reef tanks at, just curious where all those readings were done and if most of our livestock are from those places.

I dunno who's tank thrives at which temp,
or how relevant the max/min/optimal temp is...
but I can testify that my particular reef tank turned into one stinkin slimey mess at 89F
(AC broke; Mesa, AZ mid summer...arghhhh )
:hmm2:

[James77]

but I can testify that my particular reef tank turned into one stinkin slimey mess at 89F
(AC broke; Mesa, AZ mid summer...arghhhh )
:hmm2:

What was your tanks typical operating temperature range?

[advancebc29]

I switched to LEDs and went back to T5's then back to LEDs. It took me awhile to figure out that you can't just throw any old led system on your tank, and expect to see T5's. You need to do your homework people! Without the right spectrums and correct colors/ combo/LEDs your coral will look terrible do terrible and you will ultimately blame the LEDs for this, when in fact you could have more control over color and intensity if properly done DIY,or purchasing the right fixture from the get go. I've experienced great growth from LEDs, I've also experienced coral loss as well. I have taken what I have learned from LEDs and applied that to every new build I do. I'll never go back to anything else! LEDs are the future IMO! Some people are just unwilling to change, while others have the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality......which is cool too.


+100000
Thank you. This is what I have said about 10 times in the other thread but have been ignored by most. I haven't read through this one yet but I am sure it is going to go in the same direction.

yeap it did.

This poll should be "Do you understand why your lighting tech change failed?"