20g DIY sump help

[Sethjamto]

I'm building my DIY 20g sump this week for my 90g tank. I will go with glass baffles.

Here are my questions....

1. I'm not sure whick skimmer I'm going to run yet. Most likely a Reef Octopus. As long as I leave enough room for the skimmer, does the hight of the first baffle matter? Or does the height of the first baffle directly correspond to the skimmer I'm going to use? Should the water flow over or under this first baffle?

2. How can I be sure that I leave enough room in the sump for a power outage?

I'm going with skimmer left, center is refugium, and right is return with a bubble trap between the refugium and return.

Does someone have a drawing of a 20 sump that will work for me?

Thanks in advance!

[planedoc]

Every part of building your sump is critical. Skimmers run best in a certain depth of water. You kind of need to pick out your skimmer before building sump. If you build a 10 in high baffle and your skimmer needs to be in 6 inches of water you will need to raise it up 4 inches. Well what if there is not enough room to raise it up. If your sump is under your tank it might hit bottom. Most are built with a 2 or 3 baffle bubble trap. On a two baffle water would go under and than over. A 3 baffle bubble trap it goes over, under than over. You can search for sump builds and look at other designs. It is recommended to draw your idea and post a picture of it so others can comment before you build it. You can also look at the commercial builds.

[Waddleboy]

1. yes and no. Planedoc said it. you can raise it, but you then got to check clearance. Also after your skimmer section you can have water flow over as if you keep a CUC in the fuge, they will be able to crawl under the trap you have designed and could get into the skimmer.
2. There are a lot of factors that go into this. How far are your returns under the water in the DT = how much water you will drain. This will allow you to figure out how much you need to account for. Also take into account your water volume in the plumbing.

Also if you want someone to show you drawings, what kind of 20g are you working with? Dimensions are needed

[jackde]

http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u464/johndemitruk/Sump%20pics/sump.jpg

Maybe this will help? Keep in mind you can always raise a skimmer but lower may be a problem. When filling tank and sump check your back flow as you go and mark max. water line in sump.

[planedoc]

The only way to figure out power off room is hook up sump and run it. You can do this before installing baffles. You run return pump and mark level in sump. Turn off pump and see what happens. The bigger the return pump the more space you need. It's also set by plumbing height / siphon breaks in tank.

[Sethjamto]

Thanks. The sump is 30x12x12. I'm pretty confident that I'm getting the Reef Octopus NWB150, so I'll build the sump design for that. I'll do skimmer....3 baffles...refugium...single baffle.....return pump.

[Sethjamto]

Looking up the NWB150, it states 6"-10" of water. Do ya'll figure I'm good if I split the difference and build the skimmer section to be 8" deep?

[Waddleboy]

I think 8" wont be a problem. Personally though if i was to do it, i would do skimmer 1 baffle ruge 3 baffles return IMO

[Sethjamto]

Okay....I did some planning and measuring today. The tank is 30x12x12. This is what I'm thinking. First off, before I forget, the inside measurement of the tank is 11 3/4". Should I have the glass cut an 1/8" shy of that? Meaning all pieces are 11 5/8" wide?

The tank is a 90g with a 700GPH corner overflow. The return pump is a Lifeguard Quiet One 3000 rated at 718GPH with a max of a 10' head.

I will be running a Reef Octopus NWB150 that has a footprint of 10"x8.5". Please check out my poor painter skills on the drawing below to see if I have a good plan. The Reef Octopus needs between 6" and 10" of water, so I put the first bulkhead at 8" - right in the middle of the depth needed. The 3 baffles will be 1" apart with the middle one 1" off the bottom of the tank. I'm just totally guessing at the last bulkhead between the refugium and return pump at being 6" tall......is this good? Too short? Too tall? Am I leaving enough room for overflow in a power outage?

Thoughts? Recommendations? Also, like I asked first, do I knock a 1/8" off the inside measurement of 11 3/4" to give room for silicone?

Thanks in advance!!! I'm hoping to cut this glass tonight or tomorrow at the latest as I want water in the tank/sump by this weekend.

http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr112/sethjamto/Untitled.jpg

[uncleof6]

1/16" seam allowance, at each end. And you won't be building the sump this weekend either.. or at least have water in it.

Before the glass is installed in the sump, the edges need to be polished, or you will have crud seams. Also the silicone will be curing for a week at least yes? Forget the 24 hr cure time, that is not going to apply for the amount of silicone you will be using.

I also have concerns with the size of your return section, put simply, it is too small. The return section is more important than the fuge, and if the fuge does not have at least 9 gallons running volume, after your pump can run for several days without burning out due to evaporation, it is not going to be much good. Just to give you an idea, that sump, when running will not have 9 gallons in it--total.

[Sethjamto]

Okay......so what do I need to change. You did a great job of saying it won't work, but could you help me in designing one? Will making the last baffle taller suffice, or is it not wide enough?

I'm reaching out to all you knowledgable ones on this!

[Sethjamto]

I just looked a the sump pic above....that return section looks as narrow if not more narrow than the 6" I thought about doing mine......

[jackde]

Sethjamto, the sump pictured above is almost as you have pictured. Return section is 7 1/2" wide but I have a SC 65 skimmer that is about 4 1/2" wide. The first baffle is 9" high and skimmer is raised a little. Baffle before pump is the same 6". I have water level set half way from top of this to bottom of black trim giving about 3 gal. for evaporation. My tank loses 1/2 gal. per day. When pump is turned off I get 3 to 4 gals. of back flow without spilling over sump.

[Sethjamto]

Okay....what if I went the the BM NAC6? It has a 6.7"x10.4" footprint which means I can make the skimmer chamber much smaller. It does require 9.5"-11" of water though and being a 12" high tank, would I be safe to set the water height at 10"? The first baffle would be 10" high, second to the top with an inch clearance on bottom, third same as the first.

I could then expand the return pump section from 6" to say 7 or 8"?

Would this work?

[Waddleboy]

you dont want to make your skimmer section so small and tight were removing the skimmer becomes a burden and difficult. 10" wont be a problem as long as your sump can handle the overflow from the tank. Making the return section taller will also keep more water in it, but again watch how much backflow you have. Also i like my third baffle slightly lower than the first to promote flow

[Sethjamto]

So is my drawing above good? It seems to based on everything I've seen and read, but Uncleof6 seemed to slam my idea and failed to help oroffer advice. I think I'll stick with my original drawing above and get glass cut tomorrow. Worst comes to worse I can always add an inch or so to the last baffle to raise the water level a little bit in the return ssection....but I want to leave enough room for power failures.

[Sethjamto]

Just to give you an idea, that sump, when running will not have 9 gallons in it--total.

Actually, doing the math.....it will be exacly 9 gallons. 4 in the skimmer section, and 5 combined between the fuge and return....

So, that will leave me with safely 8-10 gallons before I overflow....that should be more than enough during power failures, right?

[uncleof6]

So is my drawing above good? It seems to based on everything I've seen and read, but Uncleof6 seemed to slam my idea and failed to help oroffer advice. I think I'll stick with my original drawing above and get glass cut tomorrow. Worst comes to worse I can always add an inch or so to the last baffle to raise the water level a little bit in the return ssection....but I want to leave enough room for power failures.

The sump you designed will work. Never said it would not. However, there are a couple things that need some more thought.

A 20 gallon is hardly large enough for a three sectioned sump. You are shoehorning the pump. A poster above, said he has about 3 gallons in his return section--not enough. Average evaporation on a reef tank, is 2 - 2.5 gallons per day. All well and good if you have an ATO, right? Well not exactly.

An ATO is not a pump failsafe, becasue it is an electromechanical device, and ACTIVE device, that can, does and and some point will fail. Fine you might catch it, but what if you are away for a couple or three days--well you come home to a burned up pump, and a dead tank.

The more an ATO operates, the less time it will last. So the smaller the return section, the harder the ATO has to work. However, allowing for 3 days of evaporation in the return section, a "passive" failsafe, will do two things: First it will let your ATO work less hard, and second: allow the pump to run for several days without running dry just in case. These things are very casually disregarded by too many folks, but they are sump design 101.

Well how do you deal with this is in a sump that is too small to start with? Well, despite being perhaps obscure to those that dismiss these things out of hand, the answer is above. Cut the size of the Fuge down till the return section is large enough to keep your pump safe for a few days. Again, as I said above, below 9 gallons, the fuge is going to be of marginal value anyway, cutting it down more, will not be important. In any event, the pump is way more important than a fuge. Tank can run without the fuge, it can't run without a pump.

You don't add volume to the return section by raising the baffle--this kills your power out drain down capacity. You take it from the fuge.

What is underlying this, is you actually should be using a larger sump tank, to reach the goals outlined here. That is good sump design.

[planedoc]

I would do a single 7.5 inch baffle after skimmer with a triple baffle after fuge. On triple first wall 7.25 middle 2 off bottom and 3 wall 4" high. I would widen return section to 7 instead of 6. Reason is with first wall 8 and fuge wall 6 you will have 2 inch waterfall making your bubble trap worthless. Once evaporation kicks in you return chamber will drop creating another waterfall directly into your return pump. With the low 4 inch last wall I'm suggesting you would always have a 3.25 area for evaporation before creating a waterfall into return pump. Draw it out and you will see. Truly, I would just do bigger tank if it was me or do a seperate fuge. A 20 is rather small.

[Sethjamto]

Thanks for the more in depth replies guys! Thats what I was hoping for!

I'll do some more drawing and more brainstorming with your input and let ya'll know what I come up with!

[Sethjamto]

I would do a single 7.5 inch baffle after skimmer with a triple baffle after fuge. On triple first wall 7.25 middle 2 off bottom and 3 wall 4" high. I would widen return section to 7 instead of 6. Reason is with first wall 8 and fuge wall 6 you will have 2 inch waterfall making your bubble trap worthless. Once evaporation kicks in you return chamber will drop creating another waterfall directly into your return pump. With the low 4 inch last wall I'm suggesting you would always have a 3.25 area for evaporation before creating a waterfall into return pump. Draw it out and you will see. Truly, I would just do bigger tank if it was me or do a seperate fuge. A 20 is rather small.

If I do my math right, that 3.25" area for evap only equals 1 gallon, right? So after 1 gallon of evaporation it would start to waterfall into the return chamber?

I definitely see where a 30g would be nicer......I'll have to look around for a used one tomorrow.

[tanzer16]

This has been quite the intriguing post to follow , as I find myself in the same dilemma.....I am planning a 20 g long sump for my 55 g DT and am interested in knowing many of the same things in planning this. I agree that the return needs to definitely be bigger, but what confuses me is why some choose multiple baffles before the fuge and others after. I read this link last night and it helped me quite a bit to understand planning a sump. In the configuration you are considering and after reading the link below.....wouldn't all baffles be same height ( obviously with number two sitting an inch higher) ? Sorry .....had to jump on this thread as I hope to find these answers as well

http://melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[jackde]

Sethjamto, If you look back at the picture you will see that the pump area is not the only area that evaprates. Water line is kept at 2 1/4" above the baffle giving me 4 days of evap. if ATO would stop. Your drawing is fine. You could also raise this baffle having water flow under which would give you more to evap.

As far as the 2 to 3gals. a day of water loss this would be true if you had a 2 to 300 gal. tank. My 56 losses 2qt. per day.

Here is a pic when full.
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u464/johndemitruk/Sump%20pics/sump-2.jpg

[Sethjamto]

Just got my glass cut as per planedoc's specs above. I am headed out to get the silicone to install them. Only change is that I am going to bump up the width of the return even more to 8". This reduces the fuge, but oh well. If I ever want to, I can plumb in a new, larger, tank....or add a tank for a fuge. I'm running out of room down there, though, as I'm going to use a small 5.5g tank for an ATO that fits nicely beside my 20g sump.

I'll post up pics once the silicone is done later tonight or tomorrow. Will water test it 48 hours later.

Thanks for the help guys! I think this has officially become the longest sump thread!

[Uncle Salty 05]

You have plenty of room under your stand, I would use a taller 29 gallon tank if I were you.
This will give you a lot more flexibility on what you can and can't do.
If you can return the 20 for a 29 I think you should.
I would do three baffles after the skimmer to catch micro-bubbles before they reach the fuge section.

[uncleof6]

So is my drawing above good? It seems to based on everything I've seen and read, but Uncleof6 seemed to slam my idea and failed to help oroffer advice. I think I'll stick with my original drawing above and get glass cut tomorrow. Worst comes to worse I can always add an inch or so to the last baffle to raise the water level a little bit in the return ssection....but I want to leave enough room for power failures.

Actually, I did not fail, this thread simply got lost amongst 12 or so that I am posting in...

I did not slam your idea, I said your return section is too small. You need enough volume in the return section, to account for several days of operation without losing your pump due to evaporative loss. This is much over looked in the quest for the ultimate small sump, in favor of more 'fuge' area. Upon thinking about it, you find that the pump is more important than the fuge, and the fuge can be left out altogether.

Many run ato systems, and rationalize, that there will never be a problem, however, ato systems, regardless of redundancy, can and do fail. In most cases in these small sumps, in one day, it is all over with. If you happen to be not around, oopss there goes your pump, and the rest of the tank.

Allowing several days of evaporative loss, takes the strain off an ato system, and gives you a passive 2 - 3 day grace period before you pump drops dead.

[Sethjamto]

Dug up an old thread here! LOL.

I've been running that 20g sump I talked about above for over a year and a half with perfect success! I'm breaking it down within the next month or two as I'm setting up a 300g now for leak test in my garage.

That sump, even though on an ATO, does have a 2-3 day cushion. I know because the ATO was not installed at first. I evap about 0.75g a day in this setup.