trying to justify cost for MP10

[Red254]

i need more movement in my 30G bow front, right now i have a maxi 400 and i could easily upgrade to a maxi 900 or 1200, but im really considering buy an MP10 but can get over the $230 price tag

is it really worth it? do the different modes actually help as much as people say they do?

[Peter Eichler]

Nope, doesn't help much vs. various other popeller based powerheads. But they sure are cool! :p

[scar79]

I love how clean they look - something a Tunze can't pull off as easily. The only thing better than an MP10 is 2 MP10's!

Yes they are quite pricey, but they do their job very well. A maxi jet 1200 isn't even close to comparable.

[d2mini]

The different modes are going to vary your flow intensity which I think is better than just one constant speed. The width of the flow is going to be much wider than the other pumps which have a more focused stream. You get a great push/pull movement without having to buy separate wave box contraptions. The wet side takes up much less space inside the tank. If you get more than one they can talk to each other and work in synced or anti-synched modes. And you get one of the best companies (and an American company as well as fellow hobbyists) in the biz standing behind their product. Only you can decide if any/all that is worth it.

They also sell a battery backup that is plug n play with the vortechs, which in the case of a power outage can save your entire tank.

[DetroitReefer]

I had one on my 29G biocube in my living room. bought it brand new. MP10ES. Waste of money on my part. I really hated the noise (I moved that thing all over and back. I know, sometimes the noise is from misalignment of the wet side and dry side). It was neat when it was on, but I wish I'd have saved the money.

I am setting up a 180 (6') now, and i am really considering two MP60 for this tank. Then I remember how annoying the sound from my MP10 was and reconsider.

[swcc]

I like my MP10.... one powerhead taking up hardy any space and doing it all. Feed mode is great... changing things up is cool too.
Is it worth the extra money... depends, one can ask is it worth buying an audi instead of a VW(maybe).
I think if the cost of the mp10 had been a concern, I would probably just buy a couple Tunze powerheads instead.(I don't think I would stretch my budget to buy one is what I am saying).

[d2mini]

I had one on my 29G biocube in my living room. bought it brand new. MP10ES. Waste of money on my part. I really hated the noise (I moved that thing all over and back. I know, sometimes the noise is from misalignment of the wet side and dry side). It was neat when it was on, but I wish I'd have saved the money.

I am setting up a 180 (6') now, and i am really considering two MP60 for this tank. Then I remember how annoying the sound from my MP10 was and reconsider.

if you thought an MP10 was loud, don't bother with a 60.

[DetroitReefer]

I am leaning towards a SCWD and a larger return pump. The Vortechs are great. I just prefer something quieter.

[kenc87]

Hmm I honestly love my mp10s, they are very quiet and my corals love them. I even bought one of them used for 80 and it was two months old.

[Red254]

Thanks for the input , I think I'm going too suck it up and buy one the benefits seem to out weight the cost

[Doctareefer]

I have two the new version and the blue box. I know some people have problems with noise but mine are almost dead silent

[ojonas81]

One of the best improvements I done to my 28g JBJ. Love the flow and it is near dead silent. Hear my LED hood fans way more than the pump. Got even more use out of it after I connected it to my APEX. Can now change modes several times a day automatically.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[ryeguyy84]

Got even more use out of it after I connected it to my APEX. Can now change modes several times a day automatically.


don't forget about the ability to have the pump automatically lower speed when you enter feed mode on the apex.

the only time mine is loud is when its on Nutrient export mode. you hear the pulsing sound.

[saliva911]

if the cost is already in your mind you shouldn't get it. cause then your gonna be banging your head against the wall wondering why you spent so much money. and all the things you could have gotten instead:headwallblue:

[Allmost]

1. undertow.
2. the real state saved in a small tank.

the above are unmatched by the compatitors.

[samstersam]

mp10 hands down.

i could not keep my blueberry gorgonian alive without it and its variable speeds and "wide" flow while minimizing heat, and being less intrusive than other submersible powerheads.

[mussel and hate]

Is it worth it? I don't own an MP10(yet) and so I may not seem to be qualified to weigh in but I'll speculate regardless.

You see I'm trying to talk myself out of buying one and having a difficult time doing it. Im hesitant because of the $259CDN buy in. While that's not a lot of money for a pump it's a lot for a power head... an AC powerhead that is. The MP10 has a brushless DC pwm controllable motor Like an RC car. and that motor is mounted externally. It costs about what I'd pay for a cordless drill with a similar though much more powerful motor and drive... oh and batteries, this thing isn't cheap.

The best argument against the MP10 is the same one it flaunts over a traditional powerhead. The MP10 is more bulky and conspicuous than a bulkhead fitting. As long as an external pump has a speed controllable brushless DC motor I don't need to clutter a viewing panel on my nano with ~200ml of techpr0n. I might buy a pump like the Waveline DC5000 for $50 less. I plumb it in place of my existing 20 yrd old external AC pump and voila I'm done!


I'm a cautious fellow. I don't like to have submerged powercords. Particularily those submerged in saltwater near a grounded reflector. My external pump came to be when it ceased to be safe as a submersible. Over 20 years the insulator hardened, cracked and copper leaching started to kill my tank. I'm glad the electricity didn't kill me, but I assure you it's perfectly safe now, I replaced the cord you see. ;)

Is the MP10 worth it? How much is life worth? Yours, your animal's?

My pumps are external now and so shall they stay. I can't afford submersible cords. If the alternative is a bigger Maxi then I say hell ya, buy an MP10. Buy another when/if the first wears out and you can't fix it or have it replaced under warranty.

[Allmost]

Is it worth it? I don't own an MP10(yet) and so I may not seem to be qualified to weigh in but I'll speculate regardless.

You see I'm trying to talk myself out of buying one and having a difficult time doing it. Im hesitant because of the $259CDN buy in. While that's not a lot of money for a pump it's a lot for a power head... an AC powerhead that is. The MP10 has a brushless DC pwm controllable motor Like an RC car. and that motor is mounted externally. It costs about what I'd pay for a cordless drill with a similar though much more powerful motor and drive... oh and batteries, this thing isn't cheap.

The best argument against the MP10 is the same one it flaunts over a traditional powerhead. The MP10 is more bulky and conspicuous than a bulkhead fitting. As long as an external pump has a speed controllable brushless DC motor I don't need to clutter a viewing panel on my nano with ~200ml of techpr0n. I might buy a pump like the Waveline DC5000 for $50 less. I plumb it in place of my existing 20 yrd old external AC pump and voila I'm done!


I'm a cautious fellow. I don't like to have submerged powercords. Particularily those submerged in saltwater near a grounded reflector. My external pump came to be when it ceased to be safe as a submersible. Over 20 years the insulator hardened, cracked and copper leaching started to kill my tank. I'm glad the electricity didn't kill me, but I assure you it's perfectly safe now, I replaced the cord you see. ;)

Is the MP10 worth it? How much is life worth? Yours, your animal's?

My pumps are external now and so shall they stay. I can't afford submersible cords. If the alternative is a bigger Maxi then I say hell ya, buy an MP10. Buy another when/if the first wears out and you can't fix it or have it replaced under warranty.

ok welll .... you are comparing apples and oranges ... [from perspective of one who has never tried an orange :) ]

Closed loop VS power head, is a totally different story, so when ppl ask about power heads, it means they do not want to deal with extra holes in their glass tank ! I personally have a simple rule, the more holes, the more things can go wrong :) so I prefer to have a power head.
now you need to compare power head to power head, meaning you compare vorthech to tunze and .... and MP10 comes out to be the smallest one :) so .....

secondly, wire submersed in salt water ? the dry side of the vorthech ecotech pumps stay DRY outside the tank, there are no cords in the water :) I am not sure what you mean again ... how can it kill you or fish ?

anyways, why make assumptions if you have never tried it ? cause trust me, once you see it work, you realize that no closed loop can move water like this [I mean the undertow] :)

PS. no offense, just didnt understand your points well and if I am missing something my bad.

[TheGodParticle]

I battled this same debate in my head for a while. Ended up buying an MP10, I liked it so much that I bought another 2 weeks later. It wasn't even the different modes that did it for me, it was the width of the flow. It takes 2 Powerheads of any other brand to equal the width of flow on one Vortech. That to me sealed the deal. I have 2 MP10's on my 5ft 150 SPS dominate tank. If anything I don't see how people do the MP40's or 60's I couldn't imagine that kind of flow in a tank?


Buy one, if you don't like it take it back. I bought mine from Petco for this very reason. Kept my receipt and had 30 days to return it just in case I didn't like it.

[Spirofucci]

The different modes are going to vary your flow intensity which I think is better than just one constant speed. The width of the flow is going to be much wider than the other pumps which have a more focused stream. You get a great push/pull movement without having to buy separate wave box contraptions. The wet side takes up much less space inside the tank. If you get more than one they can talk to each other and work in synced or anti-synched modes. And you get one of the best companies (and an American company as well as fellow hobbyists) in the biz standing behind their product. Only you can decide if any/all that is worth it.

They also sell a battery backup that is plug n play with the vortechs, which in the case of a power outage can save your entire tank.

^Pretty much this, nothing else to say. :)

[JHawlz9989]

One of reasons I bought mine was the resale value. If you don't like it you can always get around 80 cents on the dollar for selling used, probably more if it's lightly used. The only thing I don't like is I have to keep it cranked up pretty high to get the flow all the way across my tank (20 long), which can make things a little turbulent on the side the power head sits. This problem is easily solved by purchasing another one. :)

I imagine with a 30 bow front you won't have near the issues that a 20 long would have, and what you want could easily be achieved with one MP10.

HTH,

Josh

[mussel and hate]

ok welll .... you are comparing apples and oranges ... [from perspective of one who has never tried an orange :) ]

Closed loop VS power head, is a totally different story, so when ppl ask about power heads, it means they do not want to deal with extra holes in their glass tank ! I personally have a simple rule, the more holes, the more things can go wrong :) so I prefer to have a power head.
now you need to compare power head to power head, meaning you compare vorthech to tunze and .... and MP10 comes out to be the smallest one :) so .....

secondly, wire submersed in salt water ? the dry side of the vorthech ecotech pumps stay DRY outside the tank, there are no cords in the water :) I am not sure what you mean again ... how can it kill you or fish ?

anyways, why make assumptions if you have never tried it ? cause trust me, once you see it work, you realize that no closed loop can move water like this [I mean the undertow] :)

PS. no offense, just didnt understand your points well and if I am missing something my bad.

I'm sorry if I confused you. The condensed version is that if the OP wants to have a submersible pump then I fully endorse the MP10. The caveate being it's way too expensive and still uglier than a closed loop.

I hope that was more coherent.

[mussel and hate]

Come clean Almost... you didn't really read my post did you?

[MBIETZ]

If your heart is set on it then get it but i had an mp-10 and 40 i disliked both i could constanly hear the ramping up and down on both sure the different setting are cool but i would personally go with a controllable tunze pump they take up more room but they are silent.

[Allmost]

I'm sorry if I confused you. The condensed version is that if the OP wants to have a submersible pump then I fully endorse the MP10. The caveate being it's way too expensive and still uglier than a closed loop.

I hope that was more coherent.

lol I did read your post, and this is what I understood too, but the point is, MP10 is not a submersible pump !

its OUTside the tank :) no wires in water, no heat in water.

[aaronnohren]

Modes are great, width of flow is fantastic, battery back up is piece of mind, but why I continue to love mine over all other pumps in the low profile. Thousands of dollars of livestock only to clutter it with cords and bulky pumps? Not really my style.

I have an 10 and a 40. I don't think they're "loud" but they definitely aren't quite. As long as I don't have to fall asleep next to them I really don't mind the small hum of the motor.

[Skimmed]

I just got one last week and I love it. It's not silent but it certainly isn't distracting. My clowns love the varying flow.

I'm going to get a second one when my wife has calmed down about spending that much on a "little whirry thing".

[jacob.morgan78]

Is there a cheaper alternative to still get the controllabe flow? I'm looking to add something like this to a 20 gallon tall but can't afford the vortech.

[Allmost]

Is there a cheaper alternative to still get the controllabe flow? I'm looking to add something like this to a 20 gallon tall but can't afford the vortech.

well .... for a 20G tall tank, not much !

other option is tunze .. with a controller. but the tunze power head itself is much larger than the MP10.

[Realposition]

Just the saved real estate in a small tank is worth it IMO

[jacob.morgan78]

Would I need two mp10's for a 20g tall?

[pnavarro170]

wow im surprised, its way worth it hands down no if ands or butts, i dont think they are loud at all probably the 40 is louder than the 60, i have had them all first hand and is the best flow for your tank. you wont regret it, if you happen to regret it, you can sell it for around $200 if its still pretty new. even old old used ones still sell for $150 so dont worry about that part.

for those that havent tried one then you really cant talk. and for the others its kinda like if you have to ask how much then you probably cant afford it. lol. i would still recommend saving up for one like the rest of us.

[Shoryureppa]

You know you want to buy it. You know it makes sense. You have watched the video reviews, testimonial and the complaints. You've probably seen it in action. You know there is no comparison to any power heads out there, well maybe a Tunze. What the heck are you waiting for?

[jacob.morgan78]

wow im surprised, its way worth it hands down no if ands or butts, i dont think they are loud at all probably the 40 is louder than the 60, i have had them all first hand and is the best flow for your tank. you wont regret it, if you happen to regret it, you can sell it for around $200 if its still pretty new. even old old used ones still sell for $150 so dont worry about that part.

for those that havent tried one then you really cant talk. and for the others its kinda like if you have to ask how much then you probably cant afford it. lol. i would still recommend saving up for one like the rest of us.

You know you want to buy it. You know it makes sense. You have watched the video reviews, testimonial and the complaints. You've probably seen it in action. You know there is no comparison to any power heads out there, well maybe a Tunze. What the heck are you waiting for?

I don't get the hype... There are still ways to generate random flow for much less money. And for the comment about affording it, I can afford it but don't make a habit out of throwing money at things I don't believe in just because it's the new thing.

I'm waiting for some competition to come about to bring the prices way down. Its so overpriced its not even funny! IMO...

[pnavarro170]

I don't get the hype... There are still ways to generate random flow for much less money. And for the comment about affording it, I can afford it but don't make a habit out of throwing money at things I don't believe in just because it's the new thing.

I'm waiting for some competition to come about to bring the prices way down. Its so overpriced its not even funny! IMO...

so i have to ask, have you personally had any of the vortech pumps ?

[jacob.morgan78]

I don't get the hype... There are still ways to generate random flow for much less money. And for the comment about affording it, I can afford it but don't make a habit out of throwing money at things I don't believe in just because it's the new thing.
I'm waiting for some competition to come about to bring the prices way down. Its so overpriced its not even funny! IMO...

so i have to ask, have you personally had any of the vortech pumps ?

[Michigan Mike]

I was in (somewhat) the same situation as you. Well, I needed pumps for a 36g corner bowfront, 2 29g, and a 20long. I have a few old school aqua clear powerheads, but I needed more.
Maybe if I only needed a pump for one tank, had to have the status boost of having a $230-290 mp10 that would end up on reef crest mode all the time, then maybe I would have got one, in the future I most likely will, someday...
I ended up getting koralias instead. I got 2 750's,2 550's,and a 425 nano for 1/3rd the price of one mp10wes.
Now I have flow for multiple tanks, I can flip a switch and turn them off for feeding and water changes.
I wouldn't mind having a maxi jet around as they are pretty useful for mixing water etc...

[Peter Eichler]

I don't get the hype... There are still ways to generate random flow for much less money. And for the comment about affording it, I can afford it but don't make a habit out of throwing money at things I don't believe in just because it's the new thing.

I'm waiting for some competition to come about to bring the prices way down. Its so overpriced its not even funny! IMO...

Vortechs aren't exactly new, especially if you consider them technology... The MP10 is a little newer, but they're just a smaller versions of the MP40 which has been around for years.

[Allmost]

I don't get the hype... There are still ways to generate random flow for much less money.

what are the other choices ?

what do you give up on ? size it takes in the tank ? undertow ? ...

there are no other choices right now, unless ure willing to give up on some stuff.

[jacob.morgan78]

they are great pumps... they do a lot of things other pumps don't... but doesn't it tick you off how overpriced they are??? IMO, it's not worth so much more money to move water around when other pumps do it for so much cheaper with comparable results (not the same results possibly but they're comparable)

[Led Bizkit]

Got my MP40 on Monday and LOVE THEM!!! :)

Two of them on my 120 gal

[OodleyBoodely]

I love mine! I bought it for my 37g, but, while waiting to get the 37 running, I put it on my 6gal nano and it was perfect. Now it is on my 37...and it is perfect! :) I bought it for its small in-tank footprint...I hate seeing all that junk in the tank! Mine has been extremely quiet, too. My tank is right next to my bed, with the mp10 pump about 2 1/2 feet from my head. It is quiet. :)

[CrazyTom]

My tag is crazy Tom b/c people think I am crazy for spending what I do on fish.....

And honestly they only know that I spend $50 on a fish... not what I spent on lights....

Can I justify spending money on a MP40....

Nope

Can I afford it and do I want it....

Yes sir..... I think I will buy a second for my 90....

[Mavrk]

1 word ... undertow

These things create amazing undertow. The motor on the outside helps with heat too. Plus they have a low profile and have different modes. Really, one is kind of boring but still really cool. Get two and you will be really happy. Get 3 and you can use the Ecosmart modes the way they are supposed to be used (although I think 2 is still enough most of the time).

Edit: they are not silent... especially if running at 100% you will hear them winding up and down. Of course they are quieter if you run them lower (which is another reason why 2 is nice to have).

[Reefmedic79]

I just bit the bullet and purchased a MP10, Should be at my house by the end of the day.

[jacob.morgan78]

Does it matter that you can't point it in a particular direction inside the tank and that it's always gotta be pointing straight ahead like that?

[swcc]

Does it matter that you can't point it in a particular direction inside the tank and that it's always gotta be pointing straight ahead like that?

Nope. It may disturb the substrate more than say a tunze pointed up to the surface though(at the same GPH rate). If you get two or more, the flow around the tank can be distributed more and the results are less possibility of your substrate being disturbed (which is also true of choosing multiple Tunzes or xyz power head). The vortech provides a randomness to the current in the tank through it's wide dispersion and also the ability to pulse into a wave, or, if put in random reef mode, cycle the flow up and down.

The vortech is also not 'overpriced'...not only is it the only power head that does what it does, it is also not some 'made in china' product built by the lowest bidder to maximize corporate profit.

[cody6766]

I did this for a few years. I have been using Koralia power heads since I got started and have been mostly happy. I've owned 8 over the years and 4 are still running. The failures weren't timeline related. The first failed a few days after purchase, replaced under warranty, one failed after about 4 years, the others within that period.
The tipping point for me was the failure of one old koralia and the want to set up another tank. I onky need flow to get the second tank running and need a little more flow in my solana. I bought a used mp20 instead of buying $100 worth of koralias that may not last. I'll use the koralias in the new project and the vortech in my solana.
The used price is easier to swallow and it's nice to know that I can sell it for about the same as I paid if I don't like it.

[GSMguy]

Come clean Almost... you didn't really read my post did you?

He read your post and understood it and you gave your opinion on something you have zero experience with. Who should come clean?

[Allmost]

they are great pumps... they do a lot of things other pumps don't... but doesn't it tick you off how overpriced they are??? IMO, it's not worth so much more money to move water around when other pumps do it for so much cheaper with comparable results (not the same results possibly but they're comparable)

ok lets compare :)

you find me a compatitor, and post the price here, with the controller. then we will check to see if the price difference + the extra space + the heat added + thw wire in water is worth it :)

and no other pump has undertow ... but we can ignore that for now.

Tunze 6095 + controller ?
267 + 160 = $$$$ 420 !!!

and its larger, and doesnt have the undertow !

Edit, even if you take tunze 6055 ... still 233 bucks ! without controller ! same flow [a bit less by numbers actually !]

Korallia .... sure, but they have their own ISsues ... current leackage, not secure enough mounting and so on. they are just lower quality.

[StaghornE]

I love my mp10. Mainly because of the foot print. If they made another pump like this without the controller for less $, I would buy 3 today, you couldn't keep them on the shelves.

[TheGodParticle]

Is there a cheaper alternative to still get the controllabe flow? I'm looking to add something like this to a 20 gallon tall but can't afford the vortech.

Which one is it? You can't afford it or you can. You've contradicted yourself multiple times in your posts. My guess is its that latter of the two and you can't afford it. Lots of people cant, its okay, but don't sit there and say they are overpriced which is why you won't buy one when you clearly said earlier that you couldn't afford one.

[jacob.morgan78]

I should have said that I didn't want to spend the money. My bad. If they didn't have a patent on it, and had competition, would they still be so expensive? It's overpriced IMO.

[swcc]

I should have said that I didn't want to spend the money. My bad. If they didn't have a patent on it, and had competition, would they still be so expensive? It's overpriced IMO.

It cost's more to manufacture in the US or Europe...chalk it up to a manufacturer not supporting slave labor wages and a disgusting industry...

If your unwilling to support a company that 'does better for the country it resides in' that is your beef. If you cannot afford one, so be it and that in no way makes it "over priced"...It is simply over budget for your financial situation.... You would perhaps argue that my Tag Heuer watch is overpriced as well... after all one can tell time with a timex. One could also actually point out that support of a 'made in china' industry is in fact the very reason it may be over budget for you(global economics).

[TheGodParticle]

Apple has Patents on their iPads, they have PLENTY of competition but they still sell more Tablets than any of their competitors. There's a reason they do its because they're the best. I don't disagree that they are pricey for something so simple however, I think even if there was a large market the price on Vortechs would remain the same and they would continue to sell. I may even argue that they could raise the price and still sell just as many.

[Allmost]

I should have said that I didn't want to spend the money. My bad. If they didn't have a patent on it, and had competition, would they still be so expensive? It's overpriced IMO.

lol well its ure opinioin, based on nothing much ...cause I showed u that the competition is more expensive, and you decided to ignore it.

I still dont get what u base your posts on .... just gut feeling ? lol

lol this is just funny .... calling something too expensive whent he compatitor costs more .... LOL hahaah

[Allmost]

Apple has Patents on their iPads, they have PLENTY of competition but they still sell more Tablets than any of their competitors. There's a reason they do its because they're the best. I don't disagree that they are pricey for something so simple however, I think even if there was a large market the price on Vortechs would remain the same and they would continue to sell. I may even argue that they could raise the price and still sell just as many.

I disagree :)

tunze, with no dry side, and no controller, costs more.

[Mavrk]

Just as an update, I got another MP10 and it is pretty much silent. Even at 100% I cannot hear it unless I am close. My old one whines. I don't know if they have updated their drysides or if mine was just defective and didn't know it. I have sent an e-mail to customer support and will see what they say.

[jacob.morgan78]

It cost's more to manufacture in the US or Europe...chalk it up to a manufacturer not supporting slave labor wages and a disgusting industry...

Good point. Hadn't thought about that. However, you don't need to go on the attack against me... It's just an opinion.

lol well its ure opinioin, based on nothing much ...cause I showed u that the competition is more expensive, and you decided to ignore it.

I still dont get what u base your posts on .... just gut feeling ? lol

lol this is just funny .... calling something too expensive whent he compatitor costs more .... LOL hahaah

You're right, it isn't based on much. That's why it's just my opinion and I'm not saying it's fact. And again, people going on the attack just because I don't agree with the price of an item. I don't understand. They are great pumps. I've said that already. I'm not putting you down for buying them. It's your money.

[a.browning]

The Vortechs are definately worth it. I have 2 MP40s on my 75 gallon SPS reef. I used to run Koralias but would never go near those pumps again. It's one of those things where you don't know what you're missing till you get one.

[Allmost]

You're right, it isn't based on much. That's why it's just my opinion and I'm not saying it's fact. And again, people going on the attack just because I don't agree with the price of an item. I don't understand. They are great pumps. I've said that already. I'm not putting you down for buying them. It's your money.

I agree Jacob, no point attacking someones opinion. I dont think that was the intention neither :)

we are all in an expensive hobby ... almost everything is overpriced :) when I tell ppl how much I have spent on my reef they look at me and say "that much on a fish bowl ? " lol but within this expensive hobby ... I dont think the Vortech pumps are priced that bad, if you are shopping for top notch equipments, then Vortech is fair. but of course, there is the cheaper market with korallia and Maxijets too :) I personally dont think the 2 classes can be compared, just like coralife skimmers and vertex skimmers, u know ? I am sure we have all owned a Coralife supper skimmer at one point :)

[swcc]

Good point. Hadn't thought about that. However, you don't need to go on the attack against me... It's just an opinion.


not meant to attack you per say...but the reality is America today, and it's views, are really screwing up our countries economic state. There is good reason why our country has gone from first world innovator to barely clinging onto not becoming a 3rd world country...

[CliftonArbogast]

You know you want one or you would not have started the thread, now you just have to go Buy one and stop eating for a while. I dont understand the big deal! :debi:

But seriously, you know you want one.:lmao:

[jacob.morgan78]

Good points all around :-)