Cyano issue...

[a_kraker99]

I have been battling cyano and I cant seem to get it figure out. I have tried lights off for 3 days and no feeding which took care of it for a while but it always comes back. Mainly on the sandbed.
I am now running purigen and phosguard. My nitrates are at 0 and a will get back to you with phosphate levels when I have a decent test kit.
So what is going on? Does the cyano use up and nutrients in the tank before my phosguard and purigen and get to it?

I am thinking I should try some antibiotics since I have nowhere else to turn. I have heard of people using them and the cyano never comes back. Yes I know, get to the root cause blah blah blah. I am certain I took care of any causes and now I need to nuke it unless someone can give me something else to try.

Where do I get antibiotics?

[Mr31415]

In my experience cyanobacteria only grows where you have little or no flow in your tank. If you can get better flow on your sand bed then that might help. Also, keep Nitrates at 0 and Phosphates below 0.008mg/L.

[jasonrstewart79]

Your main problem is most likely an excess of nutrients, P04, etc. Low flow, overfeeding, too long of a photoperiod, decaying algae matter... all of these can contribute to cyano outbreaks. I'd hesitate to use antibiotics as these will kill ALL bacteria in your system and you need bacteria to have an efficient nitrogen cycle. I would recommend that you eliminate whatever causes you can control and then treat with Chemi-clean if all else fails. Also, its growing where its feeding so there must be a nutrient source on or near the sandbed.

[chad316]

^^ I agree. I had cyano in a 20 gallon, so I added a larger powerhead and siphoned what I could...within a week or so it was gone. Did you skim while you did lights off? Again, I like siphoning cyano straight out of the tank when I can.

[erock68]

I battled a bit of a Cyano issue myself.

First off...how old is the tank? What type of Live Rock are you using?

High phosphates are normally the issue, along with low flow areas. Lights off tend to reduce the issue, initially but, being more bacteria than algae, it doesn't help out in the long run. You must get rid of the source.

I would suggest less feeding, maybe even skip a day in the week. Are you feeding a lot of flake food?

If you can get to it, syphon it out, where you can and do water changes.

You can also get a reactor, to run GFO.

[a_kraker99]

The sand bed where it grows probably has the most flow of any spot in the tank.
The tank has been running for just over a year now. I am almost certain I do not overfeed. I feed New Life Spectrum Marine Formula once a day and only put enough in to where the fish consume it before it even hits the sand bed. I might let a few granules hit the bottom so that the shrimp and hermit has something to eat.
The weird part is that the cyano dissapears every night just BEFORE the lights go out. In the middle of the day it looks like a red sheet across the bottom and it slowly dissapears as the evening goes on.
My phosphate test kits comes in tomorrow so I will see how that is but even if it reads 0 I assume it is only because the cyano is consuming it.
I have no room for a reactor with my setup. I run a little bag of purigen and Phosguard in a higher flow area in the back of my biocube 29.
My Photoperiod is 9 hours.

[ReeferBatman]

Don't use Anti-biotics...

Just "stay ahead of it" by increasing flow.

If another Powerhead doesn't do it for you, then a good old turkey baster 1-2 times a week will keep the evil red cyano away.

Don't forget to try to limit excess "red" light!

If you have T5's and the bulbs are 6+ months old, replace the bulbs.

[Lionfish666]

The antibiotics will probably just stress to your tank and do nothing long term. If it worked people would recommend it, everyone wants the easy fix, but it won't work, the cyno will just come back with a vengenance as the underlying problem is still there

To me it sounds as if the problem is the sand bed leaching, why not remove it along with the cyno each week with your w/c changes and top up with some new sand once it has gone?

[mnmuskyman2011]

The cyano in my 75 didn't go away when I increased my flow, it got worse. What seemed to get it to go away was a month or so of weekly 15 gallon water changes. But if I miss a water change it comes back.

[swcc]

your sandbed is a big ole biological filter. As wth all filers they get dirty and need to be cleaned or replaced. Seeing as the bed is enclosed on all side but the top,when it gets full nutrients get released and the algae comes... So it is time to remove that dirty sand and replace. You can do it in stages or all at once(live rock will support you bioload so no worries removing it all). This action will export the problem out of the tank and the cyano will go away till the fresh sand bed fills up again. So treat your substrate like any filtration device and it will work with you as opposed to against you.

[kissman]

i have never replaced my sand bed to remove cyano. You have a nutrient problem. Treat your tank as if you have high nitrates and phosphates and the cyano will die off. To get rid of the nitrates i would increase flow, clean equipment, run skimmer on the wet side, maybe start vinegar dosing, and increase water changes. To reduce phosphates I would get a reactor and start running some HC GFO from Bulkreefsupply.

[jwoyshnar]

I battled this once for quite a long time. No matter what I did it didn't fix the issue. Flow, water changes etc Alone didn't fix it. I had to use Chemi-clean along with a bunch of huge water changes afterwards and that worked wonders

[a_kraker99]

I have been vacuuming the slime out along with small amounts of sand every week with water changes with no luck for way too long.
Seems like forums are always critical of things like chemi-clean, but most of the time when I hear from someone that used it they give it a good review. 4.5 stars out of 5 (http://www.marinedepot.com/Boyd_Chemiclean_Red_Slime_Cyano_Bacteria_Remover_Red_Slime_Cyanobacteria_Remover_Medications-Boyd_Enterprises_(Chemi_Pure)-BE1115-FIMERM-vi.html) with 115 reviews can't be too bad.
I have tried the natural method for way too long with no luck.

[LittleBeard]

I was having difficulty dealing with my cyno problem. Lights out would make it shrink for a week or so but it would come back. Adding a GFO reactor finally finished it off for me.... however, my phosphates were so high it took a couple of weeks to get it to a manageable level. Remember to replace your phosphate media as it does get expended quickly.

Chemi-clean does get great reviews... I considered it. It also has a few reviews of people with nuked tanks. Are you willing to gamble your livestock on it?

[a_kraker99]

I am using phosguard instead of GFO. I don't have a reactor to use GFO in and I don't have any room for a reactor unless someone knows of one that is submersible and can fit into chamber 1 of a biocube.
I have used 2 bags of Phosguard so far and I have some flaky red algae on my rocks that I have noticed is starting to die off but cyano is unaffected so far.
In a couple of hours UPS should be here with my phosphate test so I don't have to blindly change my phosguard.
However, if the phosphate is anything like the nitrates it will read 0 anyway. My thought is that if I use chemi-clean to kill the cyano I might give the phosguard a chance to remove the phosphates from the water column before the cyano does.

[kissman]

I am using phosguard instead of GFO. I don't have a reactor to use GFO in and I don't have any room for a reactor unless someone knows of one that is submersible and can fit into chamber 1 of a biocube.
I have used 2 bags of Phosguard so far and I have some flaky red algae on my rocks that I have noticed is starting to die off but cyano is unaffected so far.
In a couple of hours UPS should be here with my phosphate test so I don't have to blindly change my phosguard.
However, if the phosphate is anything like the nitrates it will read 0 anyway. My thought is that if I use chemi-clean to kill the cyano I might give the phosguard a chance to remove the phosphates from the water column before the cyano does.

two little fishes makes a reactor you can hang on the side of the tank. the reactors work best because the water is pushed through the GFO. With a media bag most of thw water flows around it. water flows the path of least resistance

the chemiclean will kill it but will not fix the nutrient problem, so eventually it will be back

[jwoyshnar]

I can see how chemi-clean can nuke a tank. I went by the instructions to a t. Everything looked great til about day 4. When I woke up and looked at the tank everything was shriveled. Ammonia was high from the die off. I did huge water changes the next two days and my tank never looked better. Double if not triple the amount of water changes if you do decide to use it.

[a_kraker99]

Just tested phosphates with a seachem kit accurate to .01. Got a 0. So that is 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates. I guess the bad stuff is just using it all up?

[swcc]

Just tested phosphates with a seachem kit accurate to .01. Got a 0. So that is 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates. I guess the bad stuff is just using it all up?

yup... this is why it is better to remove/treat the problem vs treating the symptoms...
I have been doing this a long time and nothing beats export. If you add GFO and go down that road all you do is filter the water and that still allows the algae opportunity to the source(your detritus filled sand bed). Not to mention many folks run GFO and just don't get their phosphates to drop low enough to zero out on a test kit...or they continually battle algae...a little husbandry on your part will go a long way to providing a lower nutrient system. Clean out your sandbed and replace it. Then keep the sand bed cleaner and it will last longer. Have it no deeper than 2"(1" is better). How do you keep the sand bed cleaner...you siphon detritus off the top when doing water changes and you stir it up a little on occasion to release trapped detritus and let it get to a filter sock for easy removal.
If your system is clean bacteria activity is lower and less nitrate and PO4 are released thus keeping algae better at bay.

[a_kraker99]

I thought deep sand beds were supposed to be a good thing to harbor bacteria that converts nitrates into nitrogen?

[ReeferYork]

I thought deep sand beds were supposed to be a good thing to harbor bacteria that converts nitrates into nitrogen?

Read PaulB's thread on how to prevent old tank syndrome, he explains (I will preface that this is his opinion and also mine but take what you will from it) that deep sand beds while they can and do work, have a limited shelf life and even the best won't last more than 10 years.

The thread is filled with a ton of suggestions on how to keep a tank thriving for a very long time. You will have to pick what you think is best, people still do DSB's and rave about them, others don't do it and have the same success.

Thread is here (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2206826&highlight=old+tank+syndrome)

It's also a fun read with all of the things he has the ability to do in such a mature, diverse tank.

[tony11387]

What is your water source and have you tested it?

[jasonrstewart79]

If the nutrient level is high enough, it can take awhile to see results with Phosgard or any other phosphate remover such as GFO. All the cyano needs is ENOUGH PO4 and nitrate to reproduce... in order to get that threshold low enough, quality water for water changes and massive cleaning can be in order. As far as your DSB... well they CAN be nitrate factories but I've been running a DSB on my system now for well over 5 years; it just requires maintenance. I regularly vaccuum the top 1/2 inch of the substrate to remove detritus and never have issues with cyano. I'd be careful with replacing the entire sandbed too quickly as this can release a lot of toxins and remove beneficial nitrifying bacteria.

Also, keep in mind that some cyano in your system is a natural thing, just not an overpopulation. Balance is the key.

[swcc]

I thought deep sand beds were supposed to be a good thing to harbor bacteria that converts nitrates into nitrogen?
they function great at first. then they fill up and crash a system. research has shown a shallow sandbed will offer the same nitrification benefits without the toxic regions produced from the low to no oxygen environment. It used to be believed that nitrifying bacteria only existed in the low oxygen environment.... fact is they colonize and form their own environment and this happens very close to the surface of the substrate rocks or wherever in you tank colonization occurs.
The largest dilema with any substrate is it fills up and then releases nutrients.Left alone long enough it will crash your system. The cure is to replace and keep the bed clean. So if you enjoy substrate then clean it and stir it up now and again. safe to do so as long as it is not deep. remember you have no way to measure and monitor you substrate.... it could be one feeding away from crashing a system and you wont know till it does.

[kissman]

I think the best test kit out there for reading accurate Phosphates is the Hanna 736 which reads in ppb instead of ppm so when you figure in a accuracy of 5% in ppb thats pretty accurate. I have had a DSB for 15 years with no issues that were caused by it. My issue was over feeding. I do vaccum the top lay and I have many critters and a diamond gobie to keep it stirred up.

[jasonrstewart79]

Are the DSB police as bad as the tang and ATS/skimmer police? LOL

[swcc]

I think the best test kit out there for reading accurate Phosphates is the Hanna 736 which reads in ppb instead of ppm so when you figure in a accuracy of 5% in ppb thats pretty accurate. I have had a DSB for 15 years with no issues that were caused by it. My issue was over feeding. I do vaccum the top lay and I have many critters and a diamond gobie to keep it stirred up.
overfeeding constitutes feeding so much your fish stop eating cause they are full.... anything else is simply showing you have a problem letting your fish eat well without systemic detrimental consequances.... also you have to run gfo to remove water borne phosphate because your system is processing too much waste. I have nothing against this way of running a system... it just falls under Keeping a system that is run constantly treating the symptoms of lack of sufficient export.

[a_kraker99]

My water comes from my own RO filter. The TDS meter shows 0ppm compared to my tap water at 140ppm.
I just tested phosphate of my tap and my RO water and it actually looks like the RO reads at about .05 mg/l while the tap reads 0. How is that possible? Could my last stage carbon filter on the RO unit be leaching some phosphates or something?
BTW, my local Family Fare RODI water read 60 ppm on the TDS meter. Nice....

[regent2010]

ur water source seems fine. i also feed NLS foods i think they r the best. What kind of light r u running? time to replace bulbs? also tryout the Zeobak or Brightwell Microbak 7. add some sandswifting invert likes fighting conch. i throw in 3 in my 180g sandbeb cyano gone in a week.

[a_kraker99]

Just replaced bulbs and added some cree LED's for supplemental lighting. Otherwise it is just stock biocube CFL's.

[Lionfish666]

a_kraker99 - Yeah sounds like filter cartridges need replacing, or there is something caught your tubing that is breaking down.
Remember when your using your rodi the first litre or two that comes out is to be discarded, this water has been sitting stagnant in all the decaying matter caught in the filter and will be laden with nitrates and phosphates.