LFS says no way to LED's

[kingpin9995]

So I am looking for some opinions on the led craze. My LFS owner who keeps alot of corals says he won't touch leds, and hears nothing but negatives from his customers on them. He uses nothing but halides over his tanks and his stock really seems to do well. He says they just don't promote the growth of halides. I had two Kessils over my 54 corner bowfront. Initially everything looked great but over time I have not seen much growth. I switched to the 350W and while I love the light and the look still not much growth compared to when I used halide or even t5ho fixture. Anyone over time that has had these a while see things the same or differently. I am seriously considering moving back to my halide t5 combo. Any observations from people that are using the Kessil would be helpful.

[kingpin9995]

I have kept mostly softies , LPS, but recently tossed in some SPS.

[jefathome]

My LFS has been using them for 8mo. on their display tank and have been having good growth.

[advancebc29]

find a new LFS

LEDs work WHEN you have the correct spectrum and intensity.

[kingpin9995]

Well I am just going by what he seems to think and getting comments. He does know his stuff and runs a pretty good business. Don't get me wrong I love my 350. The tank looks great. I know how things can go with the tank and all the sudden stuff can take off. I actually made a bit of a mistake not being patient when I put the new light on and did not acclimate quite like I should have with intensity. Lost some zoas because of it I think.

[James77]

find a new LFS

LEDs work WHEN you have the correct spectrum and intensity.

Right....tell that the the umpteen thousand people that have purchased expensive fixtures over the last few years, but now are known to lack proper spectrum or at least a good mix of it.

[kingpin9995]

So do you think my one 350w is enough intensity for my 54 corner bowfront. The footprint is smaller compared to the traditional rectangular shape and the coverage is good?

[kingpin9995]

So I am not a lighting guru. What do you mean by proper spectrum?

[James77]

Most every led fixture to now has lacked true actinic and reds and greens. A lot of them are now just starting to include it, so I'd imagine a much more positive reaction from people time will tell. DIY has been playing around with multiple spectrums for a while but were only really starting to over the last year. When I did my DIY led fixture last year, true actinic LEDs were hard to come by.

[usmc121581]

I wont touch them, I hear some people worship them and I also hear just as many negatives on them. So until the positives outway the negatives I would rather spend my money on 20K-250W MH. Thats just my input.

[lynncgo]

My LFS uses only LEDs and his corals look great. I even had a conversation with him about it after doing my own research. I bought ones that were 3W per LED. He said he uses only 1W LEDs and that 3W actually can burn the corals. He said he has tested with a PAR meter *shrug*. I do use mine at about 50% though so maybe he is right about the watts needed. My corals look OK to me - though I am brand new to the hobby so maybe I don't know what I'm looking at.

[JeF4y]

IMHO LEDs are a completely different beast and one which needs to be studied and FULLY understood before jumping into them.

Yes, I believe that you can get good par, color and spectrum, BUT I also believe that many people don't understand optics, spectrum par and intensity.

It's not as simple as tossing out a MH and throwing on a chinese unit and saying "wow, this looks great". It takes more research into the lights and tuning with par meters and various lenses to get things right.

So ultimately, yes, I think LEDs CAN work, but I also believe that many people don't take the time or spend the money to do it right. Instead they try to apply web-logic or what they "think" they know about lighting to them and it doesn't work out well.

[Mmiller40gt]

Things seem to need time to acclimate under LED's. That is not good for a LFS that is trying to sell inventory quickly. They dont have time to wait 3-12 months for something to adjust.

LED's have not replaced halides no matter what the fan boys say. They are rock solid, and have many years of proven results.

[mussel and hate]

Some people expect a white/RB LED array to duplicate the look and growth potential of a 5x the wattage arc lamp. Some people believe in magic... TANSTAAFL

[ghostman]

Things seem to need time to acclimate under LED's. That is not good for a LFS that is trying to sell inventory quickly. They dont have time to wait 3-12 months for something to adjust.

LED's have not replaced halides no matter what the fan boys say. They are rock solid, and have many years of proven results.

+1 for the LFS going with what works rather than trying to sell a new fixture for big money. Any new coral will look great under LEDs, it's after a few days/weeks that problems may creep up. By then the stores livestock should be gone. LEDs are getting better daily, but I'm still not a believer after owning AIs and radions.

[sirreal63]

I like your LFS, he sounds like a Lion and not a Sheep.

[Runfrumu]

One thing with LED's are that the people who buy them have paid upwards of several thousand for them, so they aren't going to trash them after having spent that much on them, most of them time anyways.

Most tanks I see with them are new and don't have many corals, or someone who's posted a picture of them on a tank where they have just switched from halide or t5 to the LED's so it still looks good. I've only seen a few pictures or tanks I thought were impressive that had been running LED's long term.

I do know when I used them my reds faded out, but greens really popped, but mine where just 2 different blues and 2 different whites. I wasn't happy with the color seperation on all the shadows either.

When all of the "tank of the month" winners are using them, I'll switch too.


I'm not saying it's impossible to have success with them, but there are far too many people not for me to consider them again right now.

[Mmiller40gt]

When all of the "tank of the month" winners are using them, I'll switch too.




That alone speaks volumes. Especially for those of us who are hardcore into sps

[power boat jim]

After having LEDS on the tank for a year and a half, I would not go back to MH. They do take a good while to dial in. I also kept my T5s on the tank with true actinic. The trick seems to be getting the intensity corrrect. I have dialed mine back from 80% down to 60% and the colors just keep getting better. I never had great color on all my corals with MH and T5 but I do now. Growth rate now are at least equal to that of MH.

[bayoupr]

^ +1

[ReefTeacher]

Another issue in favor of LED's is heat. My tank is in a small room and the heat from a 400W halide just made the room unbearable. Since the switch to LED's the room is so much cooler I can look at my tank without sweating! The spectrum is NOT identical, but neither was the spectrum identical when I went from T5's to halides I've had good growth with all the bulbs.

[power boat jim]

Another issue in favor of LED's is heat. My tank is in a small room and the heat from a 400W halide just made the room unbearable. Since the switch to LED's the room is so much cooler I can look at my tank without sweating! The spectrum is NOT identical, but neither was the spectrum identical when I went from T5's to halides I've had good growth with all the bulbs.

Same quality of life improvement here also

[karsseboom]

Ati powermodule for me...I would put this up against any fixture in world as far as growth and color.

[rogerwilco357]

I second the ATI Powermodules simply the best t5 out there love the spectrum color and design maybe one day Radion led's but not till the 4 version comes out ..

Ati powermodule for me...I would put this up against any fixture in world as far as growth and color.

[toofrigginswt]

One thing with LED's are that the people who buy them have paid upwards of several thousand for them, so they aren't going to trash them after having spent that much on them, most of them time anyways.

Most tanks I see with them are new and don't have many corals, or someone who's posted a picture of them on a tank where they have just switched from halide or t5 to the LED's so it still looks good. I've only seen a few pictures or tanks I thought were impressive that had been running LED's long term.

I do know when I used them my reds faded out, but greens really popped, but mine where just 2 different blues and 2 different whites. I wasn't happy with the color seperation on all the shadows either.

When all of the "tank of the month" winners are using them, I'll switch too.


I'm not saying it's impossible to have success with them, but there are far too many people not for me to consider them again right now.

I started off with a cheapy china unit that was 112 bulbs at 1 watt each. Surprisingly, that grew most SPS and clams just fine (I don't know about LPS). Blues, greens, and purples were amazing! They actually look better than when under halides for me. However, anything that was red or orange, such as red planets/red caps/setosas, all eventually turned pale and lost it's color. I then switched to an AI Sol unit (which people raved about at the time) thinking that it was probably because of my unit.... I still had the same results. I thought maybe it was due to low potassium... not the case. 4-5 red planets later, I eventually gave up on red corals with LEDs and got a flame hawk to have red in my tank. haha. Even fish stores that I've seen high end units on SPS tanks, all of the red sps I've seen are 99% pale pale pale pink (borderline white at the tips). Other than the lack of red, the tanks usually looked beautiful.

I then slapped on a cheap 20k Fishneedit.com fixture and was able to keep all red sps and maintain its color.

So my theory is that since it can grow my blue, green, and purple sps fine, it boils down to fine tuning the spectrum and intensity. I think we are all just waiting on a company to finally get it right, then all of the other companies will copy and follow... making slight variations to the design to be innovative.

For now, I think I will use my $2000 on a light that is proven (MH and T5). Buying an LED fixture that is suppose to be the "next new thing" is worthless if it doesn't work in the long run. I think there is a lot of progress. It's just not perfected...yet. Just my 2 cents.

[Jeebs]

I ran LEDs for 9 months and wasn't happy with the results. I recently switched to T5s and couldn't be happier.

Anyway, there is also likely a financial reason for the LFS not selling LED fixtures. That being that once they sell you the fixture, thats it. They are no longer selling you replacement bulbs at a decent profit.

[Allmost]

LED is the future of lighting, not just for us reefers, but also for hydroponic ppl, house lighting, commercial lighting and so on. it will be the ulltimate choise for lighting.

but LEDs are still not there ! it will get there soon, but right now, its in development phase.

[power boat jim]

LED is the future of lighting, not just for us reefers, but also for hydroponic ppl, house lighting, commercial lighting and so on. it will be the ulltimate choise for lighting.

but LEDs are still not there ! it will get there soon, but right now, its in development phase.

I think the hobbiests are in need of the development phase, the LEDs work fine.

[toofrigginswt]

LED is the future of lighting, not just for us reefers, but also for hydroponic ppl, house lighting, commercial lighting and so on. it will be the ulltimate choise for lighting.

but LEDs are still not there ! it will get there soon, but right now, its in development phase.

A girl once said something similar to me... "You're Mr. Right... Just not Mr. Right now..."

[Allmost]

I think the hobbiests are in need of the development phase, the LEDs work fine.

WRONG !
I think being an Electrical engineer, doing thesis in same field, gives me more info than ... well you :)

specially since TSMC is working on LEDs designed for photosynthesis ... specially white Light LED, which is one of the top research projects in this field.

can LEDS that are out right now be used for photosynthasis or house lighting É SURE they can ! I never said they cant ! they just arent designed for that purpose, YET. as you see from different fixtures and ppl, we are still trying different combos and ... hence, DEVELOPING IT !

anyways, I see scienceand facts have no place here, so ...

[Allmost]

A girl once said something similar to me... "You're Mr. Right... Just not Mr. Right now..."

I dont see the ralation.

but sorry on the rejection ? :) haha

:thumbsup:

[power boat jim]

WRONG !
I think being an Electrical engineer, doing thesis in same field, gives me more info than ... well you :)

specially since TSMC is working on LEDs designed for photosynthesis ... specially white Light LED, which is one of the top research projects in this field.

can LEDS that are out right now be used for photosynthasis or house lighting É SURE they can ! I never said they cant ! they just arent designed for that purpose, YET. as you see from different fixtures and ppl, we are still trying different combos and ... hence, DEVELOPING IT !

anyways, I see scienceand facts have no place here, so ...

So all the coral growing in my tank under LEDs for the past year and a half and now looks better then my MH set up is all figment of my imagination and not a fact. Have you tried using LEDs on a tank?

[chadfarmer]

reminds me when i was running t5 and people here telling me they dont work

[bayoupr]

^ +1. What, LED's are like the black plague now. I've been running LED's for almost two years now and have not seen a drop off in coral growth in my tank even after switching from MH's and T5's. And no I am not a die-hard LED fan, but they work well for me with less heat and less money to pay for bulbs every year.

[power boat jim]

reminds me when i was running t5 and people here telling me they dont work

Writing a thesis on something and knowing the scientific principal on how everthing works is great. Cant argue those facts. Fact is you can analyze spectrum, watts and par, and god knows what else and come up with a Hypothesis that this stuff shouldnt work very well. Unfortunatly until you gain practicle experience using the product, Its just an educated guess. Facts are in the results of the experiment not the hypothesis.

[Frank@wall]

find a different LFS, the ones i know have great growth

[567234ta]

LEDs are definitely the future of reef tanks, once the cost goes below that of metal halides, more people will like them. As far as coral growth if you don't have the right spectrum and strength of course they will not do well. The source is not important, it's the content of that light that is.

[Allmost]

So all the coral growing in my tank under LEDs for the past year and a half and now looks better then my MH set up is all figment of my imagination and not a fact. Have you tried using LEDs on a tank?

I dont think you understand my point. :)

when we used to run 6,500 K halides, we argued that we can grow corals ... then germans started using 20K ! we all laughed, saying bahhh ... we can grow corals fine under 6,500K ... then we tried it, and saw the difference, and we all started using it and it actually moved the hobby forwards with keeping color on alot of acros ! same kinda story here. saying the LED for photosynthasis is not where it can be yet, does not mean that the LEDs we have now do not work !

you can light your living room with LED now ! you could do that 10 years ago as well ! but difference is, now the LEDs look more natural than 10 years ago, and this trend will continue, and soon we will have LEDs made for this special purpose. this again does not mean that LEDs we had 10 years ago didnt produce light or anything else. ....

development of MH is done, its over, we have all different colors and intensity, and it is a well developed technology ! LED is BEING developed, meaning different fixtures with different configs and colors coming out almost weekly, WHY ? to fill in the missing ! if you claim there is nothing missing and your fixture is perfect, then Id question that :) cause its a developing technology .... which is not fully developed yet.

[power boat jim]

I dont think you understand my point. :)

when we used to run 6,500 K halides, we argued that we can grow corals ... then germans started using 20K ! we all laughed, saying bahhh ... we can grow corals fine under 6,500K ... then we tried it, and saw the difference, and we all started using it and it actually moved the hobby forwards with keeping color on alot of acros ! same kinda story here. saying the LED for photosynthasis is not where it can be yet, does not mean that the LEDs we have now do not work !

you can light your living room with LED now ! you could do that 10 years ago as well ! but difference is, now the LEDs look more natural than 10 years ago, and this trend will continue, and soon we will have LEDs made for this special purpose. this again does not mean that LEDs we had 10 years ago didnt produce light or anything else. ....

development of MH is done, its over, we have all different colors and intensity, and it is a well developed technology ! LED is BEING developed, meaning different fixtures with different configs and colors coming out almost weekly, WHY ? to fill in the missing ! if you claim there is nothing missing and your fixture is perfect, then Id question that :) cause its a developing technology .... which is not fully developed yet.

Your point is well taken and I do agree there is plenty of room for improvement. I may not have understood the original post as it was intended and I believe we are talking about two different things. I still run actinic with my leds just to give it a bit more pop. I will say the fixtures that are out now will do what is needed to grow and color up coral very well. From my experience though I think LEDs are such a different animal, that no matter what state of development they are in, using them will be different then just plugging them in and walking away. Hence my comment about needing to develop the user. I believe many of the problems experienced with LEDs have nothing to do with the state of the technology.

I also see this technology more like the cell phone deal, as soon as you wait in line for the latest one, a new one comes out. Doesnt mean the old one doesnt work just means the marketing and development folks are working hand in hand. I am very happy with my 3 year old phone that just makes calls and Im just as happy with my LEDs that might need a bit of supplimentation but still do a great job if used properly. Believe me there is plenty of benefits in using the LEDs that are out there now. Thats why I hate when people say they arent there yet. They arent perfect....yet ,There will always be a newer and better model around the corner. Well, anyway thats my take on it.

[advancebc29]

Right....tell that the the umpteen thousand people that have purchased expensive fixtures over the last few years, but now are known to lack proper spectrum or at least a good mix of it.

I dont feel sorry for people who buys things without research and a basic understanding of what they are getting.

[reefgeezer]

First, I'll stipulate that I have LED's... and I am not an engineer or scientist. :lol2: I'm not sure, but I don't think my corals know what kind of fixture is producing the light. I did however make sure the fixture was emitting all the photons necessary for their health.

I've read many LED discussion threads here on RC in the last little while. In these threads there is a lot of discussion about spectrum. Some inference is usually made that the downfall of the LED's is that they are missing spectrum in the green, yellow, and even red frequencies. However, the discussion never seems to recognize that photosynthesis in corals uses the photons in the upper and lower end of the visible light spectrum i.e. almost UV to blue and red. This is measured as "Photosynthetically Usable Radiation" (PUR). The discussions also fail to recognize the degree to which white LED's emit photons in the yellow, green, and red frequencies.

I'll agree that not all LED fixtures, particularly the first generation ones, are adequate. IMO, you need to understand the requirements of the species you are planning to keep and the actual specifications (peaks) of the lighting before choosing.

Personally, I couldn't pick a commercial LED fixture if I had to. That's why I built mine. However, if I had to choose, I'd ask people to post pictures of the tank running on the fixture they are recommending. Before and after pictures would be even better. I'd also study the published peaks in the lighting to ensure most were in the ~400-480 nm range with some in the 650-700 nm range. To a lessor extent, some peaks in between, 500-650nm, help with color rendition but have little to do with coral health.

[Allmost]

while it is true that the blue peak and red peak are used mostly for corals for photosynthasis ... they also need other colors in order to "color up"

a true white light LED, would emit blue, green, and red !

I like your comment about corals not caring about fixture though ! if you really think that was my discussion then ... lol

[reefgeezer]

they also need other colors in order to "color up"

Is there a biological response that causes a coral to "color up" when exposed to certain photons or does a coral just look better or worse under different lights? I've always thought it to be the latter, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

[toofrigginswt]

Does anyone actually have a picture of a red SPS (maybe a red planet) that's been in their tank strictly under LEDs for more than 6 months that's showing good growth and color retention? I'd be really interested to see that. Supplementation with other light sources such as t5, mh, or pc don't count. Just pure LEDs.

[Mmiller40gt]

Is there a biological response that causes a coral to "color up" when exposed to certain photons or does a coral just look better or worse under different lights? I've always thought it to be the latter, but it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

A little of both. The light determines the type of algae that grows within the coral. Corals often expel zooxanthellae when lighting changes and take on a different type of algae that is more friendly to the current environment. Different spectrum’s can make those colors appear to "pop" more.

[Dmorty217]

There isnt a real debate here, LEDs are the future and make sense more so then MH.There is no replacing bulbs every 6 months or so, no heat issues, much less power consumption. To those who say colors fade its because of intensity and not the right colors. (UV's,red,green) My local fish stores all have LEDs on their tanks and coral growth has been amazing. Most are stuck in old habits and have closed minds. As far as price goes on a LED setup, you can get alot more for your money and have the ability to customize the lights fully with DIY kits from quality makers ie. RapidLED and not spend 2000 on a fixture.

[psusocr]

Does anyone actually have a picture of a red SPS (maybe a red planet) that's been in their tank strictly under LEDs for more than 6 months that's showing good growth and color retention? I'd be really interested to see that. Supplementation with other light sources such as t5, mh, or pc don't count. Just pure LEDs.

IMO my red planet would rival any of the MH red planets out there.. I got it as a frag and now is a little mini colony with crazy blood red polyps and a very bright hunter green base/skin.. i wish i could take a picture to save my life but i cant but here is an iphone pic!! BTW its been under LEDS for about 8 months...I do understand you want pure LEDS,,i run all LEDS but do run two 6 foot VHO super actinic tubes which isnt much "supplementation" but i do still run them..Mind you these corals are close to the sandbed

IMO its not just the lights that grow corals... its the maintenance, levels schedule and routine you have more imortantly.....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/psusocr/New%20310%20Reef%20Tank/DSCF4812.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/psusocr/New%20310%20Reef%20Tank/DSCF4776.jpg

[phragger]

Remember many LFS want to sell bulbs that have to be replaced annually. If customers go to LEDs, then they loose revenue.

Many of the companies that made LED fixtures in past years used low wattage LEDs or failed to provide the correct spectrum. Fixtures have improved significantly this year and will be much better with the inhancements that are coming out now. I switched from halides to LED this month & so far I am pleased and I keep SPS corals.

[rrasco]

Spectrum is super important. You know what's awesome about this fixture? I can change it any time I want. More LEDs, different colors, whatever I want.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/210reef/array-config-2.jpg

[toofrigginswt]

IMO my red planet would rival any of the MH red planets out there.. I got it as a frag and now is a little mini colony with crazy blood red polyps and a very bright hunter green base/skin.. i wish i could take a picture to save my life but i cant but here is an iphone pic!! BTW its been under LEDS for about 8 months...I do understand you want pure LEDS,,i run all LEDS but do run two 6 foot VHO super actinic tubes which isnt much "supplementation" but i do still run them..Mind you these corals are close to the sandbed

IMO its not just the lights that grow corals... its the maintenance, levels schedule and routine you have more imortantly.....

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/psusocr/New%20310%20Reef%20Tank/DSCF4812.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/psusocr/New%20310%20Reef%20Tank/DSCF4776.jpg

That's a really nice looking red planet psusocr! Thanks for posting the picture. From all of my research, pictures, and personal experienceI haven't seen a red planet that retained those colors you have without supplementation from other light sources. I'm really trying to prove my theory wrong. I'm focusing on the red planet because it's my favorite sps :)

BTW, I think LEDs are great for LPS and Blastomussas.

[murphreef]

i havent been on the boards much lately but have had my own custom 24 - 3 watt Cree LED set up on my small tank for a long time now and it has worked really really well.... i actually keep the white at 20% power and the blue at 80% power anything more and corals get bleached.

everyone can debate MH, T5, LED which is better and so on but each tank is different and reacts to different things.

I used to run 3 - 250W DE 20K MH on my 180 and i can say that the growth and color my lil LED unit puts out on my small tank is comparable to running MH. However I am using only 34 watts of power to light my tank, no chiller and no bulb replacement so I think overall in my experience the LED's work just fine

[teog]

I think its great cost savings trend and only time will tell. Most LFS that specialize in coral in my area have switched to LED for electricity savings alone.

[reefgeezer]

Check out DIY before you commit to buying a commercial unit. Building my LED fixture was pretty easy and I'm a extremely mechanically challenged. It was also about 1/3 the cost of a commercial fixture. I agree with RRASCO, I can change individual LEDs anytime I want for just a few bucks. If you can't build one yourself, there's plenty of people who can. I bet you could find someone to designed and build one cheaper than a commercial unit.

[mtcoins123]

IMHO LEDs are a completely different beast and one which needs to be studied and FULLY understood before jumping into them.

Yes, I believe that you can get good par, color and spectrum, BUT I also believe that many people don't understand optics, spectrum par and intensity.

It's not as simple as tossing out a MH and throwing on a chinese unit and saying "wow, this looks great". It takes more research into the lights and tuning with par meters and various lenses to get things right.

So ultimately, yes, I think LEDs CAN work, but I also believe that many people don't take the time or spend the money to do it right. Instead they try to apply web-logic or what they "think" they know about lighting to them and it doesn't work out well.

Well Said, and i am being sincere

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t372/mlevandoski11/taxi_driver.gif

[Thatgrimguy]

Does anyone actually have a picture of a red SPS (maybe a red planet) that's been in their tank strictly under LEDs for more than 6 months that's showing good growth and color retention? I'd be really interested to see that. Supplementation with other light sources such as t5, mh, or pc don't count. Just pure LEDs.


Wild acro, was small small and brown when I got it as a freebie.
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae157/thatgrimguy/210%20Gallon%20Mixed%20Reef/DSC_0150.jpg

and a red planet that had no sprouts, just an encrusted rock when I got it about 7 months ago.

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae157/thatgrimguy/210%20Gallon%20Mixed%20Reef/DSC_0151.jpg


Ai sol blues and a custom led supplement with Violets, royal blues, red and greens. The rest of my photos are at www.photobucket.com/210g

[toofrigginswt]

^Thatgrimguy, that's exactly the kind of pic I was hoping to see. Thanks! Looks like your tank as a whole did better with the addition of the led supplements. How recent is that pic above?

[DMX512]

Well some very opinionated responses on LEDs here.
I am a "lighting guy" in the theatrical and trade show industry for the last 16 years. I currently work in a lighting/rigging shop since I came off of the road in 2003. LEDs certainly have come a long way in every aspect in the last 20 years or so. Blue LEDs were not readily available 20 years ago for instance.
I have seen LED lighting instruments that will compete with (their lower wattage 575w tungsten counterparts very handily) but up front cost is the major factor.
DIY for the aquarium in my opinion is the way to go. Spectrum is the rub...and where I am now with trying to figure out the layout and numbers.
A major thing to note...that I have not seen mentioned ....is the bin or lot of the LEDs that you buy. For example we have LED fixtures that we initially bought 24 of and then five or six months later bought 12 more. Well guess what the colors dont match....primarily the Blues. Blue is THE most absorbed color spectrum by the human eye.

Check out ETC's web sight

http://www.etcconnect.com/product.overview.aspx?Id=22101

This company has a vested interest in LED technology. They are the premier Theatre/School/Church etcetera lighting and DIMMING company right now. If they dont figure out how to make LEDs work in the entertainment industry then no-one will buy their dimming systems or lights (LEDs do not need external dimming racks). ETC has figured it out. I can get clean shutter cuts from a mixed color of LEDs (think round field of light made into a square or rectangle)

As mentioned before research, research, research......but eventually practical application will have to be done. Just remember that the LED you buy today will not be the same color as the LED you buy 9 months from now and it has less to do with the hours on the LED than it does with the Bin/Lot #. LED hours are rated to 1/2 of original intensity... not to failure. Example an LED rated at 10000 hrs means that once 10000 hours of use are reached it will be 1/2 the intensity of "new"....on paper anyway.

[Thatgrimguy]

^Thatgrimguy, that's exactly the kind of pic I was hoping to see. Thanks! Looks like your tank as a whole did better with the addition of the led supplements. How recent is that pic above?

About a month ago. And yes, I saw a significant increase in my sps colors after adding the supplements. Colors that were clearly seen with the supplements on or off. The color of the corals changed, not just there appearance. Every picture of my tank is on that photobucket account. So it's pretty easy to see that leds have worked very well for me.

I just sold all my corals and tank preparing to move across the country though. :*(

[psusocr]

Thanks!

Ill have to get a real picture of it from the front so you can see the size of the colony and the deeper red and green colors

[Dave Thebrewguy]

Some inference is usually made that the downfall of the LED's is that they are missing spectrum in the green, yellow, and even red frequencies. However, the discussion never seems to recognize that photosynthesis in corals uses the photons in the upper and lower end of the visible light spectrum i.e. almost UV to blue and red. This is measured as "Photosynthetically Usable Radiation" (PUR). The discussions also fail to recognize the degree to which white LED's emit photons in the yellow, green, and red frequencies.
I guess this would depend on which emitter you are using. until a year or so ago, the prefered "white LED" was CW. The problem with this emitter is that it's mostly RB (a narrow peak ~450nm) and green(500-550nm), with just enough yellow and orange to make it look white. CW LEDs have little to offer when it comes to violet, blue and red, but they probably supply more green light than most tanks need.

[Dave Thebrewguy]

Spectrum is super important. You know what's awesome about this fixture? I can change it any time I want. More LEDs, different colors, whatever I want.

+1
I've been working on mine for a few months now, most of that time was spent on research and design. In fact, I just started mounting stars this afternoon and soldered a couple wires tonight. After all that research I'm pretty confident that I'll have the spectrum I need, but if not, or if new and improved emitters become available, it's pretty simple to swap out a few stars.

[rainmkr07]

I ran 2 ecotech radions for 9 months and wasn't happy at all. I switch to a 400w MH last month and couldn't be happier. Within a week I saw colors and PE that I had never seen before with the radions. I think for at least a SPS-heavy tank, MH or T5 is the best option. I know more tanks locally with T5 or MH over SPS tanks than LEDs. And I know many folks who tried LEDs over their SPS, then switched back to their ATI Powermodule or their MH setup.

As for the cost argument. My 2 radions were $1500. I got the used 400w ballast and reflector for $100. The bulb is a plusrite 14k (bright as heck). It was $15 shipped. So $115 for the first year, plus $15/year annually. It will be decades before I spend $1500. Plus ecotech has yearly "upgrades" that add to their cost. Just my 2c.

[advancebc29]

I ran 2 ecotech radions for 9 months and wasn't happy at all. I switch to a 400w MH last month and couldn't be happier. Within a week I saw colors and PE that I had never seen before with the radions. I think for at least a SPS-heavy tank, MH or T5 is the best option. I know more tanks locally with T5 or MH over SPS tanks than LEDs. And I know many folks who tried LEDs over their SPS, then switched back to their ATI Powermodule or their MH setup.

As for the cost argument. My 2 radions were $1500. I got the used 400w ballast and reflector for $100. The bulb is a plusrite 14k (bright as heck). It was $15 shipped. So $115 for the first year, plus $15/year annually. It will be decades before I spend $1500. Plus ecotech has yearly "upgrades" that add to their cost. Just my 2c.

I wonder what your halide has that the radions didn't.....

[advancebc29]

I wonder what your halide has that the radions didn't.....

Oh, Oh, Oh, me, me !

I know ..... anything below 450nm

sorry. had to do it :lol2:

[BonsaiNut]

Guys this whole thread is more than a little ridiculous. There are an almost unlimited number of lighting combinations out there, as there are unlimited types of reef setups and reef critters.

It would seem to be a simple thing to do back-to-back comparisons of frags from the same coral, in the same system, with different lights and an opaque divider between the two. However until such tests are done, why don't people post (1) lighting system A, (2) lighting system B, (3) before and after photos, (4) their impressions.

Right now people are just wasting their breath to universally condemn or praise one technology over another. The devil is in the details.

[reeferman1128]

We are now able to get virtually any spectrum ration with the LED's available. Even UV. it is just a matter of doing the research and selecting the bulb colors/ratios/intensity of choice. That is the beauty of Leds... being able to select the bulbs color/ratios/intensity of your choice. DIY offers an endless array of opportunities.. red, green, blue , royal bue, warm white, cool white, uv, 1% - 100%. Its up to you. Dont blame the bulb because you dont like the color of one coral in your tank. Its the same difference as buying a 5000k MH or a 20000k MH. You choose the color and intern choose the way your tank looks.

P.S. There is no doubt LED can grow coral as well as any other light source out there. I have up to an inch of growth on some SPS's a month under just 1:1 ratio of royal blue:cool white. And my pinks show are beautifully.

[Thatgrimguy]

Guys this whole thread is more than a little ridiculous. There are an almost unlimited number of lighting combinations out there, as there are unlimited types of reef setups and reef critters.

It would seem to be a simple thing to do back-to-back comparisons of frags from the same coral, in the same system, with different lights and an opaque divider between the two. However until such tests are done, why don't people post (1) lighting system A, (2) lighting system B, (3) before and after photos, (4) their impressions.

Right now people are just wasting their breath to universally condemn or praise one technology over another. The devil is in the details.

Check out vivid aquariums. They are doing just that and they feel it's a wash between the two for the most part. Some corals due better under halide, some under LEDs. It's a cool demonstration for sure.

[rainmkr07]

Check out vivid aquariums. They are doing just that and they feel it's a wash between the two for the most part. Some corals due better under halide, some under LEDs. It's a cool demonstration for sure.

I don't know if I agree with that. Watch the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpJM-EIrPI0&feature=player_embedded), starting at 3:05. IMO - the corals under MHs look a lot better. (They are under 1000w and 400w MHs - so they are going to be amazing.)

The radion side also has TWELVE radions over SEVEN feet of tank. Nobody runs that many radions over a 7 foot tank. Most folks would run THREE over that, maybe SIX if they doubled-up.

Regardless, Vivid has not made any conclusions yet on their experiment. Dave is waiting 1 year to make such a statement. If he was as gung-ho as Mr. SWT, he would've made his final conclusion months ago. Difference is, one gets the units for free, and one doesn't. Regardless, Dave may very well say they are the same, or he may say MH win in growth rate and color, we don't know yet. And even if Radions are "the same" - remember that he has SO many over that side of the tank.

[Thatgrimguy]

I don't know if I agree with that. Watch the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpJM-EIrPI0&feature=player_embedded), starting at 3:05. IMO - the corals under MHs look a lot better. (They are under 1000w and 400w MHs - so they are going to be amazing.)

The radion side also has TWELVE radions over SEVEN feet of tank. Nobody runs that many radions over a 7 foot tank. Most folks would run THREE over that, maybe SIX if they doubled-up.

Regardless, Vivid has not made any conclusions yet on their experiment. Dave is waiting 1 year to make such a statement. If he was as gung-ho as Mr. SWT, he would've made his final conclusion months ago. Difference is, one gets the units for free, and one doesn't. Regardless, Dave may very well say they are the same, or he may say MH win in growth rate and color, we don't know yet. And even if Radions are "the same" - remember that he has SO many over that side of the tank.

I feel you may be forgetting the depth of that tank. It's 3 foot front to back. Around double the depth of most tanks out there... So them having double the number of units makes sense... And I'm only repeating what the guy said in his video "I feel some corals do better under halide and some under LED, and overall I feels the LEDs are worth the trade off in heat and power" He's not drawing any definite conclusions.

[BonsaiNut]

you can light your living room with LED now ! you could do that 10 years ago as well ! but difference is, now the LEDs look more natural than 10 years ago, and this trend will continue, and soon we will have LEDs made for this special purpose. this again does not mean that LEDs we had 10 years ago didnt produce light or anything else.

You're missing a big part of the advantage of LED's (or maybe not, and I am just not seeing it). LED's are closely related to semi-conductors in terms of their development and cost. Google "Haitz's law". It states that every decade, the cost per lumen (unit of useful light emitted) falls by a factor of 10, and the amount of light generated per LED package increases by a factor of 20, for a given wavelength (color) of light.

There is no current theoretical limit for LED efficiency. Every time a limit is set, someone breaks it :) The Department of Energy has set a target of having market-priced (ie cheap) white (full spectrum) LED's broadly available in the market by 2025 with an efficiency of 160 lumens per watt. This is about TWICE the current LED efficiency on the market and destroys the most efficient MH or T5 lighting solutions. Who knows what the lab efficiency limits will be by 2025?

So imagine in ten years... when the price of electricity is TWICE what it is today, and LED's cost 1/10th as much and generate twice as much light for the same wattage... will we even being having this discussion?