Venturing Back into Horses

[Franco724]

Hello Reefcentral!

It's been a while since I've posted here. I took a long break from the hobby due the stress of graduating high school, my full time job, and the transition into college. But all is well, and things have begun to settle down - and thus so, I've decided I miss the hobby terribly and want seahorses again.

Unlike last time, when I started with six and ended up with forty dwarf seahorses - I've decided to do one of the dwarves larger counterparts. H. fisheri or H. erectus.

I went out the past couple of days and came home with my 25 gallon tall system, filter, skimmer, live sand, rock, and plants and such for hitching. There will be saltwater in the tank sometime this weekend and I'll keep this mini-build thread up to date as I go through the process of cycling and acquiring the horses.

I'm thrilled to be back in the hobby!

[rayjay]

I hope you can take the tank back as it is too small for erectus and most other standard sized seahorses, and you probably won't find H. fisheri for sale in North America.
Recommended minimum tank size for MOST standard seahorses is 29g for one pair and an additional 15g for each additional pair.
Because erectus are such full bodied seahorses, it would be really pushing it to put a pair in a 25g long term. (unless you want to do a lot more cleaning and water changes than is normally required for these seahorses)
Might be best to update your information on seahorses as much could have changed since you last kept them.
See the links at the bottom of the "My Thoughts on Seahorse Keeping (http://www.angelfire.com/ab/rayjay/seahorsekeeping.html)" written by experienced seahorse keepers and a seahorse commercial breeder.

[Franco724]

Based on the dimensions of the tank, I think I'll be fine with a single pair of erectus or similar species. I'm well aware of the extra care and need for pristine conditions. And I'm confident I can maintain them (I did superb with 40 dwarves in a 10 gallon feeding live brine).

The tank is already set up. All I'm waiting on is the protein skimmer and and plants to add for hitching. Then I will start the whole cycling process.

205245

[rayjay]

Unfortunately, IMO, there is really no comparison to keeping dwarfs and keeping standards.
Dwarfs feed on live food, standards feed on frozen food that isn't all eaten and degrades when remaining in the tank, trapped out of sight, feeding nasty bacteria, the big nemesis of keeping seahorses.
The water is further fouled by particulate matter expelled from the gills when the seahorses snick up their food.
The problem really shows up some time after set up as conditions slowly degrade and you don't know until the seahorse shows distress in some form.
It's common also, for tanks that need extra care, to end up having some chores skipped or delayed when nothing appears to be going wrong, until conditions get to that degraded condition.
Actually, I've been known to let things slip like that with large enough tanks back in my earlier years, and then couldn't figure out why I had problems.
If you really MUST use that tank, at least get a slimmer seahorse like H. reidi.
Also, set up an overflow and use a 20g tank for a sump to add extra water to the system.

[Franco724]

I currently have erectus, reidi, comes, and kuda available. I'm not set on what species I want just yet.

I've done my research and am aware of everything you stated. The horses I'd be getting are trained to feed from a feeding station (at least supposedly) hence the half-oyster shell wedged in the rocks. This way I can regulate the amount of food eaten, and add more as needed. I don't have to worry about whole chunks of food flowing out of site and decaying - at least not as much if I were to be just dropping the frozen food into the tank and letting it go with the flow.

So I feel with religious weekly water changes, and possibly a larger change once a month along with heavy filtration, skimming, and such I'll be good to go.

[RadReefer]

Awesome!

[rlpardue]

Rather than thinking about what tank volume is an acceptable minimum, I'd like to humbly suggest that a large-as-possible-volume system might be easier for you in the long run (even though it would mean a little more money and time initially). Have you ever had a tank drilled and used a sump and/or a refugium? It's a great way to cheaply double the water volume of the system. Also, a refugium is great for producing pods, mysids, and other delicious microfauna in case you ever wish to add a pair of pipefish to the aquarium. (NOTE- wait a year to do this, otherwise the pipefish could transmit disease to the ponies). Rayjay's website is a great source of information; his recommendations on temperature, stocking levels and such are great! (although I don't go to the same lengths to sterilize a system such as boiling LR).

The larger the water volume, the longer it takes for water parameters to change, so you have longer to catch a nitrate buildup or ph drop, etc. Just thought I'd give my two cents. I love my pair of H. Barbouri

[rayjay]

NOTE- wait a year to do this, otherwise the pipefish could transmit disease to the ponies
IMO, waiting a year is NOT going to make any difference. If the pathogen transfer is going to have negative effects on the seahorses, then it is going to happen no matter when you put them in.
Based on threads on the "org", the odds are much greater that negative effects will happen than not.

[rlpardue]

Ray's comment is a valid point. Exposing CB seahorses to WC fish is inherently risky and generally not a good idea. I shouldn't have made a conditional suggestion when the condition only marginally decreases the risk.

[Franco724]

Thanks for the input. There is no intention for any pipes in the tank at this point. I plan to have it dedicated solely to the pair of horses - with the exception of a CUC. I may/may not go with a sump. It depends on what type of chiller and skimmer I pick up.

Right now the tank hangs around 74 with lights off and 78 with lights on. I realize this is too warm for horses - and I think I can drop it a few degrees with fans via evaporative cooling. Though my worry is how things will be during the summer.

However now, out of curiosity, do temperatures (78-80) have any ill-effects on pipefish? Maybe ill do a pair of banded's or bluestripe's instead of the horses with a couple of shrimp and/or gobies. Hmmmm.

[rayjay]

I personally didn't have any luck keeping pipe fish but from what I've read over the years, temperature hasn't been a determining factor for them like it has been for seahorses.

[Franco724]

Well, It's day 8 with a raw shrimp cycling and my parameters read:

Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 40ppm

[rlpardue]

It's strange that you already have that much Nitrate. Usually there's an Amm spike, then nitrite spike, then once you register nitrates it's basically done. If you want a recommendation on pipefish, here is the big determinative factor: does it eat frozen foods voraciously? Most pipefishes' mouths are too small for mysis, and it's risky getting the small ones that rely solely on copepods. I got lucky with mine; I asked a LFS to be on the lookout for mated/bonded pairs of dragon-faced pipefish (I had a parasite that needed to be eaten, but I killed the parasite with a medicine, another story).

Anyway, the LFS got a pair of dragon-faced pipes returned; they had been purchased a month before but then they had tiny cute babies all over the guy's tank. He wasn't up for culturing live foods that can actually fit in a baby pipefish's mouth (I'm not even sure if it's possible for this species; haven't done the research yet). So I lucked out and got a mated pair that already ate frozen Cyclopeeze. You just have to be patient and pester the LFSs in your area for a couple months. If it's possible to find a mated pair, it's worth the wait!

[rayjay]

I REALLY don't understand people using shrimp to cycle a tank.
It takes sooo long to decay and produce a decent level of ammonia when adding some straight liquid ammonia, or, as I do, ammonium chloride, you can have the level at 2, 4, 6ppm, whatever you want and immediately.
It's also an excellent way to check and be SURE the cycle is sufficient for livestock by adding enough ammonia to bring the level to about 1ppm and see how long it takes to clear. If it clears in a day then normally one would be good to go.

[Franco724]

I used "live sand" that claims to have come with all necessary nitrifying bacteria. That's my only guess as to why I have nitrate already.

I've been reading about the ammonia method and want to do it, but i figured i couldn't because I already started the cycle with shrimp. Is it too late to pull the shrimp and start the ammonia method?

[rayjay]

Yes, there is no problem with removal of the shrimp and utilizing ammonia.
It doesn't take much so start with a little and let it mix well before testing to see if you have enough.
I usually start with 6 to 8ppm but others start with less.
The higher the reading the longer it takes to cycle but after the cycle the "more" route will handle a bigger bio load right off.

[Franco724]

Alrighty. I'm going to have to give it a go. My store (Shoprite) sells clear ammonia. The ingredients read ammonium hydroxide. However when I shake the bottle it foams up quite a bit ... Is this normal? Or are there perhaps other detergents not listed in the ingredients?

[rayjay]

I don't know if that is normal or not.
While I know many people use liquid ammonia, I have always used the ammonium chloride powder so I have no experience with liquid foaming.
I would think that if nothing else is listed then there shouldn't be any, at least that's the way it is in Canada here.

[Franco724]

Thanks for the help Rayjay! The shrimp is out and I brought the ammonia up to about 4.0ppm (perhaps a little higher). Now the goal is to have it drop to the point where I can add 1.00ppm of ammonia and have it return to zero overnight ... correct?

[rayjay]

Yes, that is correct. Also be sure the nitrite is at zero afterward.
I actually do this twice, a few days apart, just to be sure.