Antibiotic treatment for a sick H. magnifica

[OrionN]

About a week ago I got a new Magnifica. I posted about this in this thread:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2219029

Anyway, the Magnifica is not doing well. It initially got some injury but seem healed up OK. However, it go into this spiral of death that many of us know well. Daily deflates in the afternoon and evening. It is looking worst and worst. Knowing that if I don't do anything, it will not survive.

I took it out of quarantine tank and put it in a treatment tank this afternoon. The anemone is small, only about 4-5 inches fully expanded so I decided to use a 20 g high tank as a treatment tank. I used water from my DT and quarantine tank. Added about 10 g to my 20 g tank. Placed a PH and heater in it and transfer the anemone over. I used the same salt mix and salinity and temp was the same so I did not drip him in, just transfer directly. Below you can see the bare minimum treatment tank I have for him. He was attached to a small LR so transfer was easy, no problem. I put the rock on top of a inverted coffee mug to elevate him higher thus easier for circulation and light. A heater was added and temperature set at 80 degree. Salinity 35 ppt. I put a piece of tape on the side of the tank and mark water level, so I know how much fresh water to add to replace elaborated water.

At this time I have not have a light on the treatment tank, but it is right on my east facing window so it will get full day light in AM and indirect light in the PM. I plan to do 50% water change daily with medication added to the change water. I plan to use DT tank water added med then use this to change the water. Newly mix water , mixed from the day before will be added to the DT tank so I can remove water from the DT tank.

Antibiotic choice. I choose ciprofloxacin as the antibiotic I use for this treatment course. Cipro is a floroquinone, it is wide spectrum and cover a lot of the gram neg often infected human with salt water exposure. What infect human is certainly not a base to use to chose what infected anemone but I just got to start somewhere. It is a generic, cheap ($13.00 for 40 tabs 250 mg). Human dosage is 500 mg twice a day.

I choose to use 250 mg in 10 g of salt water. This is from an educated guess on my part. It should give effective concentration for the tank thus anemone under treatment.

I will update every few days, good or bad until the anemone either doing well back in quarantine or display tank or dead. Wish me luck. I hope that this thread will be of use for some of us taken care of these beautiful and delicate creatures. Here are the pictures

10/1/2012 a few days in quarantine tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47146


10/3/2012 not doing too well

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47220


10/5/2012 1 hrs after transfer into treatment tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47292


10/3/2012 FTS of treatment tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47293

[nemoboy1]

Sad to hear good luck with treatment

[OrionN]

I am caoustiously optimistic about my Purple Magnifica. These are pictures yesterday. I was not able to posted them due to problem with RC having problem with loading pictures. First picture was taken before 50% water change using antibiotic added water. The concentration of antibiotic in the tank and water for water change is 25 mg/gal ciprofloxacin. The Magnifica inflated bigger that it ever had since it is under my care.

10/6/2012 Before water change

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47379


10/6/2012 after water change

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47380

[bradleym]

That's great!! Please keep us posted as I may need to do this in the future and so I can really use all your experiences and reults.

[OrionN]

I got a little more time to work on the tank and rearrange it a little this AM. Yesterday, the anemone wanted to move from the rocl=k so I put him near the wall of the tank, nest to the window and he climbed on to the aquarium wall. also I use a diffuser to divide then tank so I won't get pureed Magnifica soup or BBQ anemone foot. I also change the PW to a little more powerful.

The magnifica continue to improve. It is fully expanded at this time. I think I will try to get a 250 W MH to put on my cube and use the 150 W Aquapod for this treatment tank. I will see if I can get one online this coming week.

I welcome any input, comment or question. It seem like no one want to say anything.

10/7/2012 FTS of the treatment tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47382

10/7/2012 before water change

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47383

10/7/2012 after water change

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47384

[OrionN]

Picture this AM. He is doing a lot better, looking as good as I have ever seen him.

I am glad that I got the divider because I would have Magnifica puree soup for sure if I did not do it yesterday. The Magnifica went for a walk and climb on to the diffuser as can be seen in the picture.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47405


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47406

[AndrewAP1]

Looking much better

[sqwat]

Keep it up I c allot of improvement the natural light doesn't hurt eather

[OrionN]

Top down from the surface of the water

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47407

[worm5406]

Nice... I thoguht you had two at first... then I saw it was a reflection.

[OrionN]

The anemone is doing OK. I can't feed him because there is no filter in the treatment tank. Feeding will spike ammonia. The anemone still release a little zooxanthellae. some semi solid material does come out I suction and remove it all.

I ordered on of the 150 W MH clamp on tank to give it more light. The light will arrive Friday. I got timer for it already. I hope the light will get it perk up more and stop moving around. I plan to treat him for 10 days then will not add antibiotic to water change any more. If he still continue to do wall in treatment tank without antibiotic for a week or two, then I will move him back to the quarantine tank (full reef Aquapod).

Because I plan to keep him in the hospital tank for so long, I really need bright light for it.

[LeLutinBanni]

Nice improvement...Your nem and you are lucky !

[illcssd]

I'm following this very closely, Minh. As I've wanted to try it for a long time and never been sure of what antibiotics to use. Managing a lfs, I see a lot of anemones and generally only hand pick them, but wish we had a way to cure the infection so many Mag's and Gig's come in with. If you're successful it could be a big break in the hobby.

[OrionN]

Austin,
There is a thread here that I cannot find but a curator for one of the aquarium brought Magnifica in for the aquarium. He was 0/?8 without treatment. He decided to empirically treat the Magnifica with doxycycline at 100 mg/g for 24 hrs on arrival. He was 100% success with this empiric treatment.

I am not sure how my is going to do. I hope he will do well. I upload all the pictures on to Reefcentral so the threat will not loose these pictures in the future. I welcome any comment, discussion and will try to answer any question regarding this treatment experiment or anemone treatment in general.

Hope it will be a great learning experiences for everybody.

[OrionN]

The anemone looks great this AM. since the light setup does not arrive until Friday, I put a spot light on him. I use one of the daylight florescence screw-in bulb, 75W equivalent daylight color. No deflation since I put him in treatment tank. He slight deflates at times but none of this completely deflate episode other than when I first put him in the treatment tank.


http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47433

[OrionN]

Teh Magnifica is currently under treatment with Cipro for the last 7 days today. It is doing really well, no deflation. It is doing much better since I put a florescent 15 W bulb daylight color on it and also today I put a 20W LED 14000K flood light on it at the same time (both LED from the side and florescent on top. I have high hope that it will survive this episode. For sure the antibiotic ciprofloxaxin does not have detrimental effect on the anemone or the zooxanthellae population at the concentration of 25 mg/gal. At least for 1 week so far. I do a 50% water change daily and add 125 mg Cipro after 5 g change each day. I just rub toe 1/2 tablet between my two fingers right in front of the PH until it all dissolved

Here is a picture of my Magnifica today. It is on the side of a coffee mug I have in the tank.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47456

[OrionN]

FTS of the hospital tank with full morning Sun in the background and the two lights on the anemone. Heater and PH in the compartment on the R separate by a divider.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47457

[SomeDude12]

I think you've done an excellent and thorough job, however, from "picture 1" only, I can't diagnose it as being an unhealthy anemone. I have 3 Ritteri's in my 125. Just as any anemone, the usual symptoms of an unhealthy anemone are:
1. Sloughing of tissue
2. Lack of stickiness to the tentacles & foot
3. Gaping mouth exposing its internals

Anyway, it's definitely looking good! I have one that is very similar in color. =)

[Reefvette]

Prolonged exposure will is what i have found is the killer.

You killing all of the bacteria inside the anemone but it needs some of it to survive.

You should see more inflation and deflation at first as it tries to clear out it body of the dead bacteria, kinda like when you poop on antibiotics.

As the treatment goes on you should see less inflating.

Some can handle it and some can not. Also alot of things i ready said to do daily water changes, use ammonia detectors because of the effects of the antibiotic on the dead bacteria can cause some crazy spikes.

No dip should last longer then a three to four days past that your really weakening the animal.

[OrionN]

.....from "picture 1" only, I can't diagnose it as being an unhealthy anemone. ....

Hind sight, I should take picture of the anemone whenit fully deflated. Keeping Magnifica for a very long time, I do know when they are sick. I should document it more. The second picture is the anemone at it best in AM right before I started treatment. It completely deflated the afternoon before. I should take the picture then but did not. I was busy trying to gather equipment to start treatment.




Prolonged exposure will is what i have found is the killer.

You killing all of the bacteria inside the anemone but it needs some of it to survive.

You should see more inflation and deflation at first as it tries to clear out it body of the dead bacteria, kinda like when you poop on antibiotics.

As the treatment goes on you should see less inflating.

Some can handle it and some can not. Also alot of things i ready said to do daily water changes, use ammonia detectors because of the effects of the antibiotic on the dead bacteria can cause some crazy spikes.

No dip should last longer then a three to four days past that your really weakening the animal.

you assume that there are good bacterial inside Magnifica. I do not think that this is the case. We have bacterial in out but this is "out side of your bodY".
Do you have any evidence that led you to believe that there are bacterial inside Magnifica normally? Zooxanthellae species are not bacterial, rather they are members of the phylum Dinoflagellata. They are not affect by ciprofloxacin.

[Reefvette]

There is good and bad bacteria in every living thing. That's how we are able to fight off some bad bacteria with the good stuff.

This is why i run a UV filter at a higher flow rate in my Display i am hoping kill off bacteria but not all bacteria cause some is actually good.

Like in humans there is always a presence of bacteria in the anemones stomach that i assume is used to help digest food. When you give antibiotics it kills off all bacteria in the stomach, assuming it does the same for the anemone.

There is a period with antibiotics treatment i called the purge. Its when the anemones starts to purge all the waste and dead bacteria. After that you should see a better looking nem.


I have tried 4 different QT's with hosting anemones spanning 4 species. Magnifica, Mertens, haddoni and gigantea.

Also i strongly advise my customers not to have more then one hosting anemone in a tank and not to add new nems once there is established nem in tank. The new anemone introduces new bacteria that the current one doesnt not have the ability to fight off. This is what causes the most problems.

[OrionN]

Reefvette,

I don't think there is any scientific base on what you wrote.

Our body have bacterial and other microorganism on the outside, on the skin. We also have bacterial and other microorganism in our GI track which is technically outside of our body. The GI track is basically a tube from the mouth to the anus. Inside this tube is outside of our body proper. Any organism that invade into our body is wipe out by our immune system or we get very sick and die if our immune system cannot maintain this barrier.

There is no normal organism that live in the tissue of the anemone other than this very special symbiotic relationship with the Zooxanthellae which populate the tissue of anemone.

[God.]

just my 2cents.. i would half to agree with minh.

but then again anemones are animals that have symbiotic relationship with the zooxanthellae. if they are technically animals, wouldnt they have to have a more complex anatomy involving different tissues and cells/antibodies to sustain its own "immune system" ? How could they survive with out immunity? beyond that, wouldnt it also require some sort of mechanism to physically/(chemically?) digest the food it eats that could possibly be damaged from the antibiotic? or does this where gram + and gram- comes into play?

EDIT: BTW the anemone mentioned in the thread looks 10X better. i see alot of anemones working at the LPS in my neck of the woods. Its obvious when anemones are improving, and by gosh this one certainly appears to be.

[Rippinfrags]

Hey Minh congrats on your success thus far and thanks for the detailed write up. Quick question, when you do a water change are you using freshly made saltwater or water from one of your tanks?

[BonsaiNut]

I don't think there is any scientific base on what you wrote.

Hi Minh; I'm gonna come to Reefvette's defense on this one. Here's a paper on S. haddoni that explores using anemone anti-microbials for application in new medicine.

Antimicrobial activity of tissue and associated bacteria from benthic sea anemone Stichodactyla haddoni against microbial pathogens.
(http://www.bonsainut.com/images/Shaddonibacteria.pdf)

[BonsaiNut]

By the way, I would consider adding a venturi to that hospital tank. I have found that in tanks without a surface skimmer, you can accumulate proteins on the water surface that cut oxygen exchange. I always run a venturi, or even better, drop a in small in-tank protein skimmer. Since you have one side of the tank partitioned off, a small protein skimmer would serve two purposes - keep the water cleaner while increasing available oxygen.

[OrionN]

Hey Minh congrats on your success thus far and thanks for the detailed write up. Quick question, when you do a water change are you using freshly made saltwater or water from one of your tanks?

I use water from the quarantine tank (QT) for water change. The reason I did this is because the QT water is heated. I did not want change the environment of the sick anemone very much and shock it with larger temperature change every time I change the water. QT temp set at 80 degree and hospital tank (HT) set at 80 degree. Salinity at 35 ppt.
Everyday, I replaced evaporated water in the HT. Then I drain 5 gal from HT(total volume of 10 gal). I then siphon 5 gal from the QT to the HT. Replace 5 gal of water to the QT. Then I added 125 mg ciprofloxacin directly to the HT by dissolve the tablet right in front of the PH.

[OrionN]

By the way, I would consider adding a venturi to that hospital tank. I have found that in tanks without a surface skimmer, you can accumulate proteins on the water surface that cut oxygen exchange. I always run a venturi, or even better, drop a in small in-tank protein skimmer. Since you have one side of the tank partitioned off, a small protein skimmer would serve two purposes - keep the water cleaner while increasing available oxygen.
I though about this but decided not to do it.
Better Oxygenation is great but with the tank as is and the high circulation, I did not think it is lacking. The main reason for me not to do it is that I am not sure how the antibiotic concentration is effect by skimming. It is likely remove by skimming, given the complex and larger size of the Ciprofolxacin molecule.

About the article you posted, let me review it and will give my though on it later today. Thanks.

[OrionN]

After review the study posted by Bonsainut, this is my impression of this study.

The authors trying to find molecules that have antibacterial effects of human pathogen. Knowing that there seem to be bacterial isolated from anemones, and that microorganisms have methods of inhibiting their competitors, and guessing that anemones have their own defense mechanisms to fight bacterial and fungal infections, they set out to see if they can demonstrate grown inhibition of various isolate against human and fish pathogens.

First they demonstrated that they can isolate bacterial from anemones. They did not give any information about how they did this other than stated that they isolate CFU (colony forming units) from tentacles and from the column of the anemones. They did not stated if the anemones were healthy, taken directly from the wild or in holding tank and sick or sicken with transport. How these anemones were keep prior to harvest. Method of harvest of these anemones. How they account for contamination from sea water. We know that the sea water is full of organisms and bacterial. How they be sure that the bacterial on the outside or inside of the anemones.

What they did demonstrate is that extract form the anemones inhibit human pathogens, and inhibit fish pathogens even more. Extracts from the bacterial they isolated also inhibit these pathogens. They recommended that further studies focus on finding these molecules as source for new useful antibiotic.

For me, this article give no insight into what pathogens infect the anemones.

To be fair, the objective of the study is to try to find new and useful antibiotic molecules. The objection I pointed out above is not important toward the objective of the study. Much more important for the authors, and they go into it extensively, is which method of extractions either preserved or destroyed the antimicrobial effects of the molecule they wanted. This would give insights into the structures of the molecules they are trying to isolate.

From studies like this drug company would invest money and come up with our new magical antibiotics. After all, penicillin was isolated from a fungus. This fungus use the original penicillin to inhibit bacterial growth so that it can gain the upper hand.

[OrionN]

Update.
I wanted to leave the anemone in treatment tank off antibiotic for a week or two, but the light set I ordered (used 150W MH) arrive broken Friday, so I don't really have any choice but to put him back in quarantine tank which is a reef. I put him back this PM. He looks well, like a well Magnifica should look. here is a picture 5 minutes after transfer him over.

If he still look well tomorrow PM, I will start to feed him.

Here is a picture
10/14/2012 5 mins after transfer him back to QT

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47515

[OrionN]

This AM. It is a "picture of healthy":)

10/15/2012 in QT tank. Looks as healthy as a healthy Magnifica should look. Very small Magnifica, as can be seen by the normal size coffee mug.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47552

[ct_vol]

Great turn around... I've not seen a Mag that small come into any of the LFS in IL or TN... I love the ones with the Purple or Red bases... Good luck in the recovery process... :thumbsup:

[worm5406]

OK Question... (Not taking over thread hahaha)

What should the primary diet be then??

Lets say I skimm too much and I want to make sure it gets a good diet...

Should I use zooplankton soaked shrimp?

[OrionN]

Thanks guys.

Plankton is not food for anemone. Any fresh seafood is food for Magnifica, smaller pieces are better. I don't feed silverside to my anemones.

[worm5406]

Yeah that is what I though... (just checking)

I dont feed silverside either. Since I read it on here a while ago. I have a whole pack already open though, that I need to get rid of. I wonder if the kids will eat it.

[JMLewis]

Why dont you feed silversides?

[OrionN]

They are smelly, meaning spoiled. Fish food just don't get the care it need in transport. If it happen to thaw out they just refreeze it and sell. Small fish, full gut means that they spoiled very quickly. Spoiled mean not healthy for my anemone. Badly spoiled mean death to the anemone that eat it.
Anemone does not have a brain so it cannot pick and choose food. If there is certain chemical in the stuff that touch its tentacles, it will eat the food spoiled or not.

[2dawghouse]

Question OrionN, can I dose my entire DT? Im really looking to add one more Mag to my mag colony tank. And if so what should I be careful with and looking for? And I hate to ask but if not, why?
Thanks, Mike

[OrionN]

The whole ecosystem of our reef tanks depends on bacterial. Dosing the whole DT with antibiotic will wreck the whole system and thus not recommended.

I would set up a treatment/quarantine tank. You need to get light to this tank since you really need the high light to keep Magnifica happy. I found 20 W 14000K LED flood light for about 40 dollars. I use this light plus one of the florescent light bulb for my treatment tank. This plus natural light seem to keep my Magnifica stay put but craw to the side of the cup facing the window to get full sunlight.

When adding a new Magnifica to a tank with other Magnifica, I would keep the new Mag in a separate system and make sure that it is healthy first before risking disease exposure to the ones you have established.

I notice that you are in Houston. Fishland (on Westheimer) have a 24 inches cube aquarium (60 gal) for about 120 dollars. I kick myself several times already for not getting it the last time I am in Houston. I would get this and get some decent light and it would be a perfect quarantine/treatment tank.

[2dawghouse]

Thanks Orion, yeah I didnt think about crashing the bilogical filter dosing the whole system.

So you know Houston pretty well? Fishland has great fish thats for sure. I live about 15 mins west of them.

But I have a ton of spare acrylic, I will just build myself one. Does the mag need the natural light while its being dosed meds or can strong reef lighting suffice?

Also, i talked to some people who know you well down there at aquarium masters. I have tried my hardest to acquire a yellow mag (i think you got yours from them). And after hunting all over Ive come to the conclusion that...I may never have one lol. They are the holy grails of holy grails lol.

[OrionN]

I try to give the anemone enough light so that it does well even during treatment. I have natural right so I use it. I would give it as much light as I can, artificial or natural.

I got both of my Gigantea from them, and the Magnifica also. Erick told me that he may try to bring more Gigantea directly from Indonesia. I will let you know if this is the case.

[OrionN]

The LFS her in Corpus Christi have a sick Magnifica. It was deflating in the store and is about to fall of the front wall of the aquarium, almost completely deflated. I am trying to get a protocol establish to treat sick anemone that I think are infected so I asked them to let me treat this one. If I can get it well again, I will bring it back to them. I really don't have the room for him right now.

From my experiences with taken care of these anemones, this one is a dead anemone that is barely moving. It will died soon enough if there is nothing done. I have been at he store about 2 weeks or so. I did not have a picture of him in the store but I did put him directly into my hospital tank (HT) which I just took down Sunday. Below are pictures of the anemone in HT about 1 hrs after I put him there, a full tank picture and a picture of him 6 hrs later. I added medication as soon as I took the first picture. I took BonsaiNut advice and added a air stone to increase air exchange in the HT.

The treatment protocol is the same. Ciprofloxacin 25 mg/gal and 50% water change daily with water from QT which is a reeftank. I moved the tank a little to the side so that it can get full sun exposure in AM. I also light this tank with a 75W equivalent Daylight (5500K) florescent screw-in bulb and a 20 W LED flood light 14,000K in color. You can see the configuration of both of these light on top of the FTS. I plan to treat this anemone for 7 days also, like the last one. I will try update daily or every few days.

10/16/2012 1 hr after added into HT. No medication yet
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47589


10/16/2012 FTS of HT with divider, air stone, heater and PH for circulation
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47590


10/16/2012 6 hrs later in HT
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47591

[Rippinfrags]

This is pretty interesting, thanks for all of the hardwork Minh. I really appreciate it and I'm sure your anemones will to!

[OrionN]

10/17 update
The brown anemone is not doing well. It is a glob on the bottom of the tank and put out a lot of necrotic stuff from it's gut as evidence but the stuff that I suction out and the water a little cloudy form the semisolid from his abdominal cavity, and the water surface is full of bubbles. If I have a protein skimmer on this tank, it will pull out a lot.. I think I will change more than 50% of the water just because of this.

10/17/2012 sad looking brown magnifica
http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47595

10/17/2012 necrotic stuff from the anemone
http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47596

[Reefvette]

Mihn this is the purge i was talking about. I would do a 100 percent water change with new Salt water and more antibiotics.

That is the stuff i was talking about where bad bacteria is feeding off.

It should begin to look better.

In regards to the air i would def reccommend you use it. It helps keeping the water oxygenated.

[velvetelvis]

Nothing helpful to add, but this is a fascinating thread. I really hope you can pull that magnifica through!

[D-Nak]

Ah, I wish that "purge" could be sent somewhere for a biopsy. Thanks for posting Minh, your dedication will help this hobby tremendously.

[Reefvette]

No reason to send it out. Ive done all the leg work.

That is decaying food/fecal matter. This stuff is nasty.

In one of the largest mertens ive gotten i found these blobs and one with noticable bones from fish. If you ever have a chance to see an anemone eat a whole fish and spit it out after digestion. Thats what the waste looks like.

Im assuming when they are collected they do not expel this because they are trying to use up most of the energy derived from the food. That food staying in gut begins to decay and that where the anti biotics come in.

At some point today i will post up pics of Mertens in various stages of QT.

[OrionN]

I agree with Reefvette. That nasty stuff is just decaying organs and tissue from the anemone. It have been at least 2 weeks since this anemone eat so I doubt that there is any "food" in there. How ever, it will be difficult to tell what is what.
If I have the capability, I would love to culture these tissue to ID any bacterial growing in that mess.

As Reefvette suggested, I did a 95% plus water change and added 250 mg ciprofloxacin. The amount of water change is almost 10 gal. Will update tomorrow. One person question if the last anemone (purple with yellow tip) was really sick. There is no question that this anemone is at death's door. The picture below is after the water change and he is looking a little better.

10/17/2012 After water change and medication added.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47597


On a brighter note, my Purple Magnifica with yellow tip is doing beautifully. I cannot be any happier how that treatment turn out.

[D-Nak]

No reason to send it out. Ive done all the leg work.

That is decaying food/fecal matter. This stuff is nasty.

In one of the largest mertens ive gotten i found these blobs and one with noticable bones from fish. If you ever have a chance to see an anemone eat a whole fish and spit it out after digestion. Thats what the waste looks like.

Im assuming when they are collected they do not expel this because they are trying to use up most of the energy derived from the food. That food staying in gut begins to decay and that where the anti biotics come in.

At some point today i will post up pics of Mertens in various stages of QT.

Can you share the results of your biopsy?

Here's what I am wondering:

1. What type, if any, bacteria is present?
2. Is there any dead zoox?
3. Is the food fully digested or only partially digested?
4. The assumption is that anemones die from the inside out, does this "blob" include anemone parts?

While it may look the same, I think the blob from a healthy anemone will be quite different from that of a sick one in terms of chemical composition. Comparing the two will help tremendously.

<b>"Im assuming when they are collected they do not expel this because they are trying to use up most of the energy derived from the food. That food staying in gut begins to decay and that where the anti biotics come in."</b>

I tend to think that all anemones ALWAYS try to utilize the maximum amount of energy derived from the food and once they are done processing the food the waste is expelled. Since they don't have a brain, they don't "know" what's happening to them. Therefore, they do not have the understanding of storing food within their bodies or not to release waste because they are in a confined space. Furthermore, they don't have the ability to anticipate their next meal.

[D-Nak]

I agree with Reefvette. That nasty stuff is just decaying organs and tissue from the anemone. It have been at least 2 weeks since this anemone eat so I doubt that there is any "food" in there. How ever, it will be difficult to tell what is what.


I think you meant to say that you don't agree with Reefvette. He is saying that it's food/fecal matter while you are saying it's dead anemone tissue. Is that correct?

I don't want to derail this particular conversation any further with our assumptions on the analysis of the "blob" but I do think it's relevant and deserves a thread of its own.

[Reefvette]

D-Nak,

I didnt send this too a lab for anaylsis. After noticing the purge i began to cut apart these blobs and found bone, and scales.

Also you have to remember guys from collection point to wholesalers/retailers tank can sometimes be two days or weeks. Anemones can store food for weeks. The problem is that when they are collected a cycle of constant change and un ample care is started. No light low light, low flow.

What i am starting to think is that they hold these bits of food inside as storage for energy. That when it spoils.

Anemones are like a bag if there is no damage internally no tissue will be exposed. They are like a plastic bag inside a plastic bag as long as the plastic bag aka stomach is not punctured tissue will not be exposed. When there is a tear in the stomach that is certain death and when you will see exposed tissue.

[OrionN]

I agree with Reefvette in the sense that the stuff that come out are decaying stuff. This particular anemone, it is likely decaying organs since it is quite a while ago that he ate. We know that if anemone cannot digest the food, they regurgitate it quickly (with in 24 hrs). We seen plenty of this keeping anemone and overfeed them or feed them when they are not ready to eat.
Some of the dark coloration can be due to Zooxanthellae. For one reason or another, anemone something dumps their zxooxanthellae. We also have seen this happened in our tank when they really stressed. It is possible that these zooxanthellae died and then casted out by the anemone. We know that healthy Haddoni dump out fish bone and snail shell very often. I have seen this in my tank often.

The bottom line is that if they eaten recently, these could be food but if weeks since they eaten, it just necrotic tissue from the anemone. Most important information we can get from these, IMO, is what the pathogen are so that we can tailor treatment accordingly.

Do I know for sure that these anemones are infected with a bacterial? No I don't but my educated guess is that it is almost certain that bacterial is the major cause for these illness and these anemones demise.

[Reefvette]

This is only helping the hobby!

Anemones are amongst the most difficult to keep alive especially when they are large. For every 1 healthy here is 5 unhealthy.

I attribute this to lack of knowledge when collecting anemones. And then in the whole supply chain.

They require such specific flow, placement, and light details. No one can afford to do that commercially where these anemones are collected.

So for now this treatment procedure minh and i and beuford are doing is critical to rasing the mortality rate of the animals.

Minh when i see zooxanthella its mostly stringly. Never on globs.

[OrionN]

Not any better. Nothing solid coming out but the water is somewhat cloudy and a lot of bubbles from dissolved solutes. Maybe it was too late when I start him on treatment. Normally without treatment he would have come apart by now. Even with treatment, I am not sure that he will improve. With the dissolved nutrient and available light, brown algae start to grow.
I will do another 100% water change later today.

The Purple Mag is excellent. I av not feed him yet but will later today.

Brown Magifica near death
http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?pictureid=47601&albumid=6914&dl=1350568066&thumb=1

Purple Magnifica looks very nice
http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47602

[Reefvette]

This is the other thing i was talking about. Sometimes you just cant judge and some are too sick.

We had a 2 inch mertens that was healthy but went into our display. I did a 24 hour dip and put him right in and no problems with getting the other anemone sick.

[OrionN]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47601

Sorry I got the thumbnail instead of the actual picture before

[Winwood]

No advice, as I think you are doing a wonderful think documenting the treatment of these animals. Good luck though!

[OrionN]

Well, the Brown Magifica is no more. Friday I came to the office and the tank was full of bubble like soap solution. I took a quick picture and try to do a water change but the anemone is lifeless. Completely still. Living anemone is still water move some tentacles. The anemone was dead, completely still. I was getting ready to go Camp-out with our Boy Scout troop right after work Friday so I cannot post anything due to lack time.
I took him out and put up the quarantine. Clean it and dry it wait for the next sick anemone. I think he was too far gone before I got to him. He was falling off the glass front he attached to.

My observation:
Regarding the smell of a dead anemone. This is resulting from the bacterial breaking down the tissue inside the anemone. That result in the smell that we all know so well and the anemone breaking apart when we try to pick it up. With treatment, this bacterial growth was suppressed almost completely. The Brown Magnifica did not smell very much and stay intact when I pick him out of the water. Nevertheless it was lifeless and dead. Too much tissue damage to the inner organs. I saw him shed these, day after day, each day was worst then the previous day.
If I have more time, I could attempt to do water change twice a day instead of once a day. I am not sure if this would make any different on the outcome.

This last treatment was a case of dead in 1-2 days vs dead in 5-7 days. No improvement in outcome.

[OrionN]

Last picture. Death of the brown Magnifica

http://reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6914&pictureid=47675

[LesMartin]

Too bad. You can but try....

[blackgate]

Sorry to hear that Orion. I am on week 2 with mine and it looks like I'm finally turning the corner. I was just on the brink with trying to remove him and start antibiotics but the last 2 days hes looked the best I have seen him. I certainly appreciate the work you are doing, please keep us up to date!

[OrionN]

Thanks everybody. I am sure I will treat sick anemones in the future. I will add on to this thread when this happen.

If anybody decided to treat with antibiotic, please add on to this thread, or start a new thread. We do need these information regardless of the result. My experience is to start treatment earlier rather than later. I still have a few Ciprofloxacin and will store these for future use. The treatment tank cleaned and dry. This will kill any pathogen in the equipments and tank.

I moved my baby Magnifica to it home tank yesterday. It is doing great and ate last night.

[blackgate]

Orion I need help. My Mag deflated for almost 36 hours so I went out and got cipro from my vet. When I got home he was huge, the best I've seen him yet, however I feel like he must have a treatment because this cycle will just keep going. How many days should I consider treating him and how often were your non-treatment water changes? Thanks for your help, this anemone is absolutely incredible and I want to try everything before it is too late.

[OrionN]

I use 25 mg per gal. I just dose the medication with all the water change. Usually I change 5 gal per day then dose the tank 125 mg after I change the water. I work on the assumption that the tank without kidney to eliminate the medication will have a reasonable steady level of medication. There will be minor breakdown of medication but the only export pathway for the med is water change.
I did not do any non-treatment water change. Only 50% water change every day and don't feed him (this will produce ammonia that will not break down by bacterial). 50% water change should keep any ammonia produced at a minimal level.

[blackgate]

Thanks orion lets get started!! I will post pics as soon as I can.

[OrionN]

Good luck. Keep us update

[Tmoriarty]

Ill see if I can find some info for you Minh, but even with no Kidney in the tank so to speak, the medication will break down through half-life. I will see if I can find the half-life of some of the anti-biotics that we may use.

[Tmoriarty]

half life in human plasma is 4-6hrs, I will see if I can get you a better source for in water.

http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00537

[Tmoriarty]

Little hard to find, but this is the best information you will probably get,

"Fluoroquinolones (FQs) are fully synthetic antibiotics that are widely used in humans, animals, and fish (Grave et al., 1999; Le and Munekage, 2004; Samanidou et al., 2005; Kemper, 2008). The antibacterial mechanism of FQs is based on inhibition of bacterial DNA gyrase or topoisomerase IV, which are enzymes essential for DNA replication. First-generation FQs are piromidic acid, oxolinic acid, and nalidixic acid, which were widely used in aquaculture in the 1970s in Japan. In tropical Asian countries, oxolinic acid still appears to be one of the major drugs used (Gräslund et al., 2003; Le and Munekage, 2004). Second-generation (ciprofloxacin, CIP and norfloxacin, NOR) and third-generation (levofloxacin, LEV and its enantiomer ofloxacin, OFL) compounds are used in hospitals and animal husbandry in Indochina (Takasu et al., 2011).

The FQs are photo-degradable, with a half-life in pure water of 105 and 90min for NOR and CIP, respectively (Burhenne et al., 1997). However, FQs in the environment are relatively stable in water and sediment (Kümmerer, 2004; Le and Munekage, 2004), which might be due to sorption onto particulates (Nowara et al., 1997). Lai and Lin (2009) reported that oxolinic acid and flumequine could be retained in sediment for 9.5–15 and 3.6–6.4days, respectively. Such long half-lives in the environment pose a selective pressure for environmental bacteria. Although the bioavailability of antibiotics is suspected to decrease upon adsorption on clay and humic substances, no supporting evidence has been reported."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283837/

In general what this is going to mean is that you will need to keep doses up pretty high in a BB tank to make sure that the photo-degradation doesn't rid the tank of anti-biotics. This does not however account for absorbtion by the animal tissue or retained water in the animal not exposed to light.

To make anti-biotics effective the level needs to be maintained high enough for the bacteria not to build up a resistance to the anti-biotic. If the bacteria is not killed off by the original few doses another source will need to be used in order to remove the bacteria as they will evolve with resistances to the previous anti-biotic treatment.

Using Minh's method I would perform a daily water change adding as advised 25mg/3.79L (lets stick to metric measurement methods)

Just keep in mind that if you are going to skip a day of a water change, I would add additional anti-biotic daily to ensure the level stays somewhat consistant in the hospital tank.

Hope this helps.

[OrionN]

Thanks a million Tyler

It seem like photo degradation is a major elimination pathway.

I will change my treatment to 25 mg/gal dose daily when the light turn out each day, regardless of water change. I think this will give high enough concentration in the anemone as it absorb it overnight. I would still do 50% water change late in the evening each day. This would be what I will use from now on.

Treatment under my old assumption seem to be successful in suppress bacterial growth in the anemone. It died but did not break apart or smell terrible as would be untreated.

[LeLutinBanni]

Little hard to find, but this is the best information you will probably get,

"Fluoroquinolones (FQs) are fully synthetic antibiotics that are widely used in humans, animals, and fish (Grave et al., 1999; Le and Munekage, 2004; Samanidou et al., 2005; Kemper, 2008). The antibacterial mechanism of FQs is based on inhibition of bacterial DNA gyrase or topoisomerase IV, which are enzymes essential for DNA replication. First-generation FQs are piromidic acid, oxolinic acid, and nalidixic acid, which were widely used in aquaculture in the 1970s in Japan. In tropical Asian countries, oxolinic acid still appears to be one of the major drugs used (Gräslund et al., 2003; Le and Munekage, 2004). Second-generation (ciprofloxacin, CIP and norfloxacin, NOR) and third-generation (levofloxacin, LEV and its enantiomer ofloxacin, OFL) compounds are used in hospitals and animal husbandry in Indochina (Takasu et al., 2011).

The FQs are photo-degradable, with a half-life in pure water of 105 and 90min for NOR and CIP, respectively (Burhenne et al., 1997). However, FQs in the environment are relatively stable in water and sediment (Kümmerer, 2004; Le and Munekage, 2004), which might be due to sorption onto particulates (Nowara et al., 1997). Lai and Lin (2009) reported that oxolinic acid and flumequine could be retained in sediment for 9.5–15 and 3.6–6.4days, respectively. Such long half-lives in the environment pose a selective pressure for environmental bacteria. Although the bioavailability of antibiotics is suspected to decrease upon adsorption on clay and humic substances, no supporting evidence has been reported."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283837/

In general what this is going to mean is that you will need to keep doses up pretty high in a BB tank to make sure that the photo-degradation doesn't rid the tank of anti-biotics. This does not however account for absorbtion by the animal tissue or retained water in the animal not exposed to light.

To make anti-biotics effective the level needs to be maintained high enough for the bacteria not to build up a resistance to the anti-biotic. If the bacteria is not killed off by the original few doses another source will need to be used in order to remove the bacteria as they will evolve with resistances to the previous anti-biotic treatment.

Using Minh's method I would perform a daily water change adding as advised 25mg/3.79L (lets stick to metric measurement methods)

Just keep in mind that if you are going to skip a day of a water change, I would add additional anti-biotic daily to ensure the level stays somewhat consistant in the hospital tank.

Hope this helps.

Very nice article

[OrionN]

Very, very good and important information.

Here is my success story in his home

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6846&pictureid=47787

[D-Nak]

Lookin' good, Minh. Score one for the hobbyist! FINALLY!!!

[maxxII]

Minh,
Great thread and I'm glad you detailed this as much as you could. Definately a good source of information and a great jump off point for future endeavors.

Austin,
There is a thread here that I cannot find but a curator for one of the aquarium brought Magnifica in for the aquarium. He was 0/?8 without treatment. He decided to empirically treat the Magnifica with doxycycline at 100 mg/g for 24 hrs on arrival. He was 100% success with this empiric treatment.
I am not sure how my is going to do. I hope he will do well. I upload all the pictures on to Reefcentral so the threat will not loose these pictures in the future. I welcome any comment, discussion and will try to answer any question regarding this treatment experiment or anemone treatment in general.

Hope it will be a great learning experiences for everybody.

Regarding the blue part of the post I quoted:

I just spent a little over an hour going through all of my subscribed threads....all 1004 or so of them. I know I used to be subscribed to the original thread, but the only thing I could find was a quoted post in a different thread. The Original Poster you talking about was Joe Yaiullo, JustJoe here. He works at Long Island Aquarium I believe and his is quoted post:

Used to have bad luck with them and other anemones till we quaranteened them which consisted of the following procedure. Without it, we were 0/8 on new Heteractis magnifica (now the accepted name, until they decide to change it again)
Upon arrival, all bag water is removed so you're left with a bag full of almost only anemone. The anemone is then added directly to a bucket of good quality tank water and aerated. If the water fouls or gets too much mucus, then discard that water. The anemone is then added to a 5 gallon bucket of good quality tank water which has been previously mixed with 10mg/gal of doxycycline. Most capsules available are 50mg, so a 5gal bucket works nicely. Water is gently aerated for 24 hrs mindful of keeping temp acceptable, which is done by floating the bucket in a sump or larger container of heated water, you don't want the heater in with the anemone. After 24 hrs, remove most of the water and refill with another 5 gal of good quality tank water with 10mg/gal of doxycycline. Leave for another 24hr then remove the anemone to a tank that is large enough to keep them for what could be a long time.
With this procedure, we were 6/8 and that was over 2 years ago and they're still here, with the largest now almost 30" in diameter.
As with any medication, especially anti biotics care must be taken not to overuse.
Joe

Hobby Experience: 30 years, Reefs since 1987
Current Tanks: 20,000 gallon 30' x 14' x 6.5' deep


From this thread: QT procedures for anemones (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=970807)

I had a situation where I introduced a newly arrived H.magnifica anemone to my system and wound up losing the new anemone and nearly lost my healthy established brown based H.magnifica. I wound up dosing it with doxycycline (100mg tab in a specimen container like the type used in LFS to hold/catch fish. The container was kept in the display to maintain temperature and light, and an airstone was added to maintain circulation and oxygenation). for 12 hours total. I had to do a 100% water change within the first 4 hours because the anemone was sliming and the airstone and the slime turned the container into a skimmer and I didnt want any overflowing into my display. After 12 hours, I removed the anemone from the container and returned it to the display, it looked alot better immediately after being returned to the tank and didnt need any further baths. The anemone made a full recovery and I've had it for over 6.5 years now.

I've tried to use Doxy as a dip for newly arrived anemones afterwards, and didnt see similar results in all of them. I suspect I got lucky with my established anemone and it was infected with a bacteria that is treatable with doxy. I'm assuming the others were not infected with a bacteria treatable with doxy.

Regardless, great job in documenting, and excellent work in saving the little purple based Nano Magnifica.

Nick

[OrionN]

Thanks guys. Thanks Nick for your information.

[blackgate]

Minh, just wanted to give a quick update. After 3 days of treatment I decided to put him back in my refugium that is connected to my main tank. I was absolutely sure he was dead, there was only a tiny flicker of the tentacles that made me think there was still hope. When I came back home this evening, I totally expected to see a half disintegrated anemone in my tank. What I found was 2 totally inflated mags that were both still a little pale from expelling so much zooanthelle, but look 2 million times better than than it did. Tomorrow I will try and feed them and if they both look better, it's back to the display. This has been one hell of a roller coaster ride this past 3 weeks, but maybe with some TLC both of these anemones might make it. Thanks for your help Minh.

[OrionN]

That is really great.

The first time my Magnifica divided, I thought he was dead for sure. He was deflated for several days, then the mouth start to open up. then I see rock through the mouth. It looks like he was dissolving from the inside. Then he split and the two haves move apart and heal up. That first time was a roller coaster ride. This happened to me I think in 2000. At the time, there was no documentation of Magnifica splitting. I documented here at Reefcentral but the upgrade by RC messed up the whole thing and lost the pictures. If you search back to the fist 1000 or so posts that I posted, if it is still available, you find the first documentation of splitting H. magnifica. :)

I would not feed hem just yet. It may take him a few days to get his stomach heal up. Early feeding can do a lot more harm than good.

[blackgate]

Ok but he sure has lost a lot of color I hope he can wait a bit longer!

[maxxII]

I agree with Minh about not feeding the nems yet...wait a few days first.

Nick

[Overboard]

I hope I found this thread in time.

I picked up a red base Mag on Saturday and just today he started downhill fast. He was doing great, fully inflated, and eating bits of shrimp until today. Even though refrigerated, it may be the shrimp has gone bad. I have Furan 2, Maracyn, and Maracyn 2 on hand. Would any of these be an acceptable alternative to Cipro, or helpful until I can find some?

I will move him to a treatment tank, but he is in a 150 reef, with good flow, on top of the rocks, under AI LED.

Thanks for the help!!

Mark

[OrionN]

Maracyn is Minocycline, very similar to Doxycyline. I would use this at the same dose, 10 mg per gallon. I would consider use Cipro. You can get ciprofloxacin on line at Drs. Foster and Smith, no prescription needed.

[Overboard]

Thanks very much for the help Minh.

The anemone is supposedly from Africa (red base) and came into a LFS last week. It appeared healthy and I picked it up on Saturday (along with the rock it was attached to) and acclimated him into my DT. I kept an H. magnifica years ago, actually a clone from Minh, that did very well. I put this one on a rock pinnacle, right under AI LED's, with very good random flow.

He did well at first. Never moved, the mouth was tight, opened fully, and ate a little raw shrimp on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. Yesterday, my wife sent me the attached picture. The mouth was beginning to loosen. When I got home, it was substantially deflated, and the mouth gaping a little. Still firmly attached, but the top half of the column was completely deflated, as were the tentacles.

I think I may have caused the problem as I was still feeding pieces off the same raw shrimp (refrigerated) but it was getting a strong odor. It had probably spoiled. I would not have cooked and eaten it, for sure.

I moved the anemone to a 20 gallon (long) treatment tank filled with water from my DT (maybe 18 gallons), added a heater and powerhead, and placed a 4 bulb T-5 fixture over it. I added Maracyn 2 at 10 mg per gallon.

This morning, he was in the same place and fully inflated, but I could not see the mouth well. Hopefully this was a good response to the antibiotic and not just a cycle of inflate/deflate. I can't tell how it is doing from work. I am picking up Ciprofloxacin and will begin to use that this evening as per Minh's treatment (50% water change daily, replacing Maracyn 2 with Ciprofloxacin in new water).

Hopefully this will work. Please feel free to offer any suggestions.

Thanks,
Mark

[garygb]

Anyone using antibiotics, please research how to dispose of the water responsibly. There is a huge problem with antibiotic resistance, in part because of inappropriate disposal of these medications.

[Overboard]

The Mag doesn't look any worse tonight. Much more inflated than yesterday at this time. The mouth though, is enlarged and elongated. Not really gaping, but larger than it should be. Hard to see in the photos. Overall, I think it is better than yesterday.

Switching to Cipro tonight.

Thanks.

[Overboard]

After a couple of days of looking anywhere from sickly to just ok, it looks better this morning. This is the first time since moving it to the treatment tank that I would say it looks vibrant and healthy. Hopefully, I wont see the inflate/deflate swing today. My experience has been that when Mags get sick, they tend to continually degrade, so perhaps this is a good sign the treatment is working.

Thanks

Mark

[Tmoriarty]

Anyone using antibiotics, please research how to dispose of the water responsibly. There is a huge problem with antibiotic resistance, in part because of inappropriate disposal of these medications.

The article I posted earlier in the thread is actually directly related to how the anti-biotics break down in the enviroment. I agree that the disposal can be important but more issues come from the disposal of the anti-biotics when they go into sources of water.

You have to remember, even as humans once we take anti-biotics we dispose of it down the drain through our body, although by this point our kidneys have normally broken it down most of the way I would guess.

I wouldn't think that a few people treating in small amounts would be to much of an issue on groundwater supplies and creating anti-biotic resistant strains of bacteria, but definately something to consider.

[OrionN]

Mark,
It looks a lot better in the last picture. Your observation is certainly most reliable. Good luck with him.

[garygb]

The article I posted earlier in the thread is actually directly related to how the anti-biotics break down in the enviroment. I agree that the disposal can be important but more issues come from the disposal of the anti-biotics when they go into sources of water.

You have to remember, even as humans once we take anti-biotics we dispose of it down the drain through our body, although by this point our kidneys have normally broken it down most of the way I would guess.

I wouldn't think that a few people treating in small amounts would be to much of an issue on groundwater supplies and creating anti-biotic resistant strains of bacteria, but definately something to consider.


Something to consider for sure. From my understanding, most species of bacteria have varying degrees of resistance, and several species have resistance to most, if not all antibiotics available. What doesn't kill them makes them stronger. Any exposure at all to an antibiotic that does not kill the bacteria allows it to create future generations that are resistant to that particular antibiotic. As much as we would like to think that treating a fish tank isn't going to lead to antibiotic resistance, I don't believe that is consistent with the evidence.

[OrionN]

Gary,
Medication that we tank some excreted unchanged from our body or can be metabolized prior to elimination. Some cleared more than one way. The kidney and the liver is the two organs that clear medication from our body and it go out either though the Urine or feces or both.
Of the medication we discussed here, Tetracycline, Minocycline and Doxycycline get eliminated through the liver while Cipro got eliminated un-change in the urine.

I think source of the problem for the environment, as eluded in the articles are really industrial use of antibiotic. For example, put Cipro in feed of chicken so that they can be raise in close quarter and not get wipe out by disease. Minor usage like us or people taken antibiotic should not cause any significant problem.

Other problem in pathogen in our body is due to sick patient who have had recurrent infection and on multiple antibiotic. The pathogen in these patient tend to get trained (or selected) to be resistant to various antibiotic then pass it on to care provider and other patients.

There are many mechanism for bacterial to become resistant to antibiotic, depends on the antibiotic, so there are very few generalization. However, most resistant mechanism are energy intensive. There is a energy cost for the bacterial to carry and keep resistance, so after a time of non antibiotic exposure, the registrant strains tend to died out in favor of the non resistance strains due to been out competed. 'they only have advantage when antibiotic is there while in the face of non antibiotic they will loose out. The competition in the microorganism world tend to be intense and fierce.

[Overboard]

My H. magnifica looked great this morning and has stayed that way all day. The treatment with Cipro has worked well and I am convinced it saved this anemone. I will continue treatment for another 5-7 days to be sure it has completely recovered.

Thanks for the help.

Mark

[garygb]

Thanks Minh for the explanation. The information I've read about people disposing of expired antibiotics by flushing or pouring down the drain, strongly discourages that method. So, that said, do you know the most responsible way to dispose of antibiotic treatment water for those who are conscientious/concerned about the environmental impact? I recall someone discussing the use of bleach, but I don't remember any of the specifics.

[OrionN]

Thanks Minh for the explanation. The information I've read about people disposing of expired antibiotics by flushing or pouring down the drain, strongly discourages that method. So, that said, do you know the most responsible way to dispose of antibiotic treatment water for those who are conscientious/concerned about the environmental impact? I recall someone discussing the use of bleach, but I don't remember any of the specifics.


I don't think that we need to treat antibiotic with anything to destroy it prior to flush it down the toilet. As stated earlier, many antibiotic get eliminated un-change in our feces and in our urine. Some medication , included antibiotic get alter before elimination, other does not.
Small dose that we use occasionally should not cause significant harm to the environment. It is the chronic large dose given to large amount of animals that cause change in the environment. Imagine the many kg of Cipro in chicken feed that is given to chicken daily, everyday for many years. The run off from this waste is what will cause problem.

[garygb]

I see. I can imagine kgs of broad spectrum antibiotics like cipro going into the water would be a much bigger issue than the amounts aquarists are adding to the environment. All of it sounds ominous to me.

[OrionN]

Ciprofloxacin was routinely added to chicken feed in the US where chicken was raise in crowded in door condition to keep disease to a minimum.
This result in disease resistant in human pathogen. So much that the FDA ban the use of floroquinones in poultry in 2005. It is not clear that this band is enforced adequately if at all.

http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2012/feather_meal_clf.html

[bradleym]

Not to hijack the thread, but thought this may be of use.

I just bought some Cipro to treat a dying Magnifica. It turned out to be too little too late, but anyway... I couldn't find anyone who would give me a prescription, so I ordered "aquatic ciprofloxacin" as the label says, distributed by Aquatic Pharmacy. I got the 250mg tablets.

1. The label recommends a dosage of 250mg (one tablet) PER GALLON. That's 10x what I have been reading in this thread, correct? Any thoughts?

2. The instructions say to add this dosage to the water for a 1 hour "immersion bath", then change the water. It does not give any recommendation for proper disposal.

[OrionN]

Bradley,

Currently I recommend dose of 25 mg/gal add to treatment tank daily, with or without water change.

Dosage for 1 hr dip is quite different from dose of continue 24/7 treatment. Also treatment of fish and treatment of anemones is most likely different.

Cipro 250mg per gal is way too high of a dose for continuous treatment for anemones where I think antibiotic is freely diffuse into the anemone. This is my assumption not back by any study of research.

Treatment of sick fish is different that that of anemones. It is possible that high concentration of antibiotic in water outside the fish is needed to get adequate level of antibiotic in the tissue of the fish which is needed for effective treatment.

We also know that Cipro is photo degrade so antibiotic need to be added regardless of water change. Under normal light condition, I would recommend to add 250 mg per 10 gal per day. This is a guess on my part, not back up by any drug concentration study.

I hope this help and clear up any confusion on dosage of Cipro for anemone treatment.

[Overboard]

Just to finalize the treatment history on my Mag, it has fully recovered after the treatment with Cipro. This is the first time I have ever had an anemone recover after starting to slide. Thanks for testing this idea first Minh!

Mark

PS - No more feeding smelly shrimp.

[OrionN]

:thumbsup:

[SNAKEMANVET]

Minh,I put the mag in the treatment tank last night,This morning the skin is comeing apart,it was just to far gone when I got it.The lfs has 2 more comeing in this morning.Would it be best to go ahead and place it in the qt tank and dose cipro even if it looks healthy.

[OrionN]

I think if you can setup a good treatment tank (good light and circulation) than it is one of the option. I think treating with Cipro prophylactic does help increase survival and does not seem to cause any detrimental effect on the anemone.
If I decide to do this then I don't have to have a full 7-10 days treatment but as long as it look good for a few days, then put him into display tank. Try to get him attach to something that is easy to remove if need. Use a mug or something, I would not use LR if I have a choice.
I hope you did not pay for the sick anemone.

[SNAKEMANVET]

Thanks Minh,The lfs gave me the anemone,he was going to throw it out in a couple of days.I thought I would give it shot and hoped it would pull through.The one I am buying today just arrived this morning.,I will pick it up a lunch.

[SNAKEMANVET]

I got the new mag,it's a regular with cream color foot.It is on drip accl now.The drip is medicated with cipro,3 250mg tablets in 28 gallon nano.I will use the stock cfls for a couple of days then add the 250 watt hqi.The anemone is real sticky.I guess this mag is about 10'' to 12'' across when fully open.I will try to get pics later.

[SNAKEMANVET]

The anemone has moved up on the back wall,mouth has been gaping since on the way home with.It is releaseing white stringy slime with a little brown in it.

[SNAKEMANVET]

After a night in qt,no change mouth is gaping.

[OrionN]

Pictures pictures especially when he looks bad.

[SNAKEMANVET]

Minh,I tried to download a couple of pics but my photobucket has changed,I cannot down load.

[SNAKEMANVET]

I got it

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t205/SNAKEMANVET/002-33.jpg



http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t205/SNAKEMANVET/001-30.jpg

[OrionN]

does not look too bad for a newly import Magnifica. I have a feeling it will do well. Good luck.

[SNAKEMANVET]

I just seen a couple of tentecles have come off,just a short piece off the ends.It is still releaseing some brown stuff.

[SNAKEMANVET]

Update,The anemone looks better this morning.


http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t205/SNAKEMANVET/002-34.jpg


http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t205/SNAKEMANVET/001-31.jpg

[OrionN]

I think it look quite good. As long as it does not start deflation/inflation cycles, I think it will be fine.

[SNAKEMANVET]

Thanks Minh,How long should I keep giving antibotics.

[OrionN]

If he never deflates I would guess 5 days. If he was sick I would treat him for 7-10 days or until he is well for 3 days in treatment tank. If he deflates in treatment tank, I would just keep him there (assuming that the condition in the tank is OK)

[SNAKEMANVET]

Thanks Minh,So far it hasn't deflated,just a gaping mouth which today looks alot better.I do a 5 gallon water change with cipro every evening .

[SNAKEMANVET]

Update,the anemone is looking better,mouth is smaller and has moved up the back a little higher.I took a pic at lunch but didn't have time to download and post.Will post as soon as I get home today.

[SNAKEMANVET]

update pic.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t205/SNAKEMANVET/001-32.jpg

[OrionN]

It does look a lot better. Nice yellow tip. It is a huge anemone once it recover from shipping

[SNAKEMANVET]

I will start today doing a 5 gallon water change with the display tank water.Will transfer the anemone on Friday to. The anemone still hasn't deflated and looks good this morning.

[SNAKEMANVET]

I placed the anemone in the display yesterday evening, it attached quickly to the live rock and still hasn't deflated.Woke up this morning and is still in the same place.Thanks Again Menh for all your help.

[OrionN]

Great. I am glad he doing well for you.

[flakey]

A little while ago i finally got hold of another magnifica (they seem to be hard to get hold of here in the UK). I've had a few in my time and unfortunatley have never had much success with them. During my latest attempt, i stumbled on this thread and with guidance, I attempted to treat my mag with antibiotics. I could not get hold of the antibiotics you guys have been using so i've had to guesstimate the dosage. Anyway, here is the thread detailing my little journey...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2226463

It was a pinful journey and i lost my way a bit after he perished, but i would like to say a special thanks to minh and everyone who offered their advice, I really appreciate it. I just hope one day I manage to get myself a healthy one.

[OrionN]

flakey,
I am sorry it did not turn out well for you.

[Arati]

great stuff in here.

I just wanted to add an experience of mine. My purple base mag a the time has been in my system for 5 years and was in perfect health.

one day at a lfs i cam across a great looking red based mag. I brought it home and put it into qt in a 20long that I set up on the fly impulse purchase...

The next day the new mag was going through deflation cycles and evacuating dark brown waste. I did a water change ran a carbon poly filter. the usual.

that nite things seemed to improve and the Nem stayed inflated until the light came on. and the cycle resumed.

after 3 days like this I deducted it was the light on my QT. So I brilliantly decided to move the new Mag into my sump wich has a much better light and I know the water is pristine! (cringe...I am so focused on saving this nem, I break the rules) in it goes..

Now my sump is ion the cellar and after cleaning up a few things I walk up stair and for the first time ever my purple based mag is deflated.. only partially but I instantly know its not right. I rush back down stairs and remove the New red based mag back to QT.

Elapsed time 10min

over the coarse of the next few weeks I lost both anemone's. did try abx on the red based one without success .. its document far6ther back in this thread or the other.

it is my experience that disease or infection passes rapidly between animals and is water born.

Description _ anemone goes through a deflation cycle during light cycle and expels brown or black string waste. I am certain the waste is being produced and it is not regurgitated food. I have seen animal completely deflate and agape and probed using a gentle water stream visually inspecting the empty stomach.

The animal appears to recover after the lights are out. and it is easy to see the light irritates the animal with a few simple tests.

Of coarse with the animal unable to Photosynthesis. and unable to digest or even hold in food it wastes away fairly quickly. It is extremely frustrating to see, since it the animal looks healthy and remains unble3ached until the very end.

Enroflaxin did not work for me. I think once we beat whatever this is the survive ability of both Mag and Gig in over sea's shipment will go up greatly.

[Pinkskunk]

Hopefully myself and many others dont make the same impulsive mistake like yours, putting the new nem in the DT w/o prior QT. we keep beating this QT thing over and over .....hopefully eventually it become our second nature :)

[Arati]

I agree Pink the QT horse has never been beaten enough .. hahah

I think the more people that relate their stories the better.

We can pin down a step by step rehab for this condition.

[Gig 'em]

This was a very good thread. If I ever try a magnifica I will be following these quarantine procedures.

I still want to stress that we as hobbyists should still take full precautions with playing around with antibiotics though. I understand many of the arguments in this thread about small amounts of antibiotics being released into the environment and being out-competed by non-resistant strains of bacteria.

However, I spent a few years working in a Federal Pathogen Microbiology lab and I know that playing around with uncertain concentrations of antibiotics is a dangerous game. May I suggest that when you remove treated water from the QT tank you disinfect it completely. You can do this by adding a cap-full of bleach or by boiling it. By doing this you will eliminate any strains of bacteria that may have generated a resistance to the antibiotic and will probably denature the structure of any remaining antibiotic molecules.

It is our responsibility to practice our hobby with care and responsibility and remain accountable for our actions. Sure, it probably won't result in any terrible outcomes, and out of sight out of mind right? But it doesn't take that much time or effort to decon a bucket of water before dumping it into the public water treatment plants with possible drug resistant microbes. It's just not a risk we should be willing to take.

I still believe treating these animals with antibiotics is a good idea to increase their chance of survival, just treat the process carefully. Perhaps some day a supplier will find a way to transport them in a more healthy manner.

[worm5406]

Perhaps if we can get some more grow out tanks we can have them tank raised instead of going out and collecting them.

Heck a 1,000,000 +/- gallon tank with wave makers would be perfect for someone to make, even if it was one of the sloped tanks like in the water parks.

Then they would not be as stressed with a flight 1/2 way across the world.

[Gig 'em]

I'll gladly build a 1,000,000 gallon tank full of magnificas!:rollface:

Perhaps if we can get some more grow out tanks we can have them tank raised instead of going out and collecting them.

Heck a 1,000,000 +/- gallon tank with wave makers would be perfect for someone to make, even if it was one of the sloped tanks like in the water parks.

Then they would not be as stressed with a flight 1/2 way across the world.

[worm5406]

OK Lets get started. I know we will make money from all the lfs and online distributers.

We have to set it up to only do 5% direct to market the reset has to go to LFS and Online distributors. That way we can get away with not being a monopoly.

Im in the DC area. Want to fly out here? We can sit and talk about it over lunch.

[Gig 'em]

haha sure it's only a small flight from Texas.

But I often have wondered how difficult it would be to collect magnificas and put them in coolers with battery powered bubblers and check them in as your check-in baggage on an airplane so they can skip all the middle-men and distributors. Then once back and established in the states start aquaculturing them in long green house raceways. I have no idea the permits required to do that though or I would structure my next vacation to accomplish that.

[SomeDude12]

With Ciprofloxacin, did you find that it caused the water to be quite cloudy?

[ca1ore]

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by 'quite cloudy'? But yes, dissolving cipro into a 10 gal volume will make the water cloudy.

[D-Nak]

How much Cipro was used? I dosed the suggested amount in a 10 gallon QT tank and it didn't get cloudy at all.

[SomeDude12]

How much Cipro was used? I dosed the suggested amount in a 10 gallon QT tank and it didn't get cloudy at all.

250mg

[ca1ore]

Hmmm, perhaps different forms work differently. I used 250 of fish flox in 10 gallons daily. It is a white pill that you must rub between your fingers in an area of flow and it does impart a slight cloudiness to the water. Not very cloudy though. It is just a HT tank, though, so only worry if the nem is not doing well, or getting worse.

[OrionN]

I just get slight cloudiness as I dissolve the tablet. This clear up shortly, certainly clear up by the next morning. I always treat at the start of the night cycle so I did not observe how long it take for the slight cloudiness to clear up.

[ryannterror]

I just get slight cloudiness as I dissolve the tablet. This clear up shortly, certainly clear up by the next morning. I always treat at the start of the night cycle so I did not observe how long it take for the slight cloudiness to clear up.

+1 to that in 10 gallons I only had slight cloudiness but that would go away fairly quick.